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Biological males in women's sport

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    #1742
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Everybody's favourite " female " cyclist proving again why transgender athletes shouldn't be allowed in sports

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7597945/Canadian-transgender-cyclist-defends-Masters-title-second-year.html


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    #1743
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    kildare lad wrote: »
    Everybody's favourite " female " cyclist proving again why transgender athletes shouldn't be allowed in sports

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7597945/Canadian-transgender-cyclist-defends-Masters-title-second-year.html

    "We are either full and equal women, or not"

    or not.


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    #1744
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,647 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    I'd normally fall to the left with my opinions but this is a step too far IMO. I can't understand how this is getting any kind of support. It's massively unfair to female athletes all for the sake of appeasing a tiny, tiny minority of people.


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    #1745
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    "We are either full and equal women, or not"

    or not.

    If given the choice I don't think it will go the way they want long term.


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    #1746
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    silverharp wrote: »
    maybe just abolish gender division in sport, just let everyone find their level, people would still pay to see the best female athletes like Serena Williams etc.

    If tennis was genderless , you would never have heard of Serena Williams or any other female tennis player. The best female tennis player in the world wouldn't be able to beat any man ranked inside the top 200 . All the competitions would be filled with men as women couldn't compete against them . Serena even said it herself that men and womens tennis is two different sports.


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    #1747
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Calhoun wrote: »
    If given the choice I don't think it will go the way they want long term.

    i'm not participating in this anymore.

    Gender cannot be fluid and purely based on a persons internal sense of themselves while Transgenderism is an absolute rock solid unshakable trait. Both these things cannot be true simultaneously.


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    #1748
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,483 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    kildare lad wrote: »
    If tennis was genderless , you would never have heard of Serena Williams or any other female tennis player. The best female tennis player in the world wouldn't be able to beat any man ranked inside the top 200 . All the competitions would be filled with men as women couldn't compete against them . Serena even said it herself that men and womens tennis is two different sports.

    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. Female sports were started at a time when it was thought women shouldn't even play sports.
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #1749
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kildare lad wrote: »
    Everybody's favourite " female " cyclist proving again why transgender athletes shouldn't be allowed in sports

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7597945/Canadian-transgender-cyclist-defends-Masters-title-second-year.html

    There is a solution. If the genuine females don't like it they should refuse to compete, or the sport is segregated by chromosome


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    #1750
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    silverharp wrote: »
    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. .

    No there wouldnt. Unless female was taken to be a biological reality. That is the whole point. At the moment, it is not. Unbelievably!


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    #1751
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    silverharp wrote: »
    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. Female sports were started at a time when it was thought women shouldn't even play sports.
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.

    But the worst men don't play at the top level in sports. If you look at soccer 18 year old boys would destroy the top-level women. There are hundreds of thousands of male players all over the world who would make a team before the best woman would.


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    #1752
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    silverharp wrote: »
    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. Female sports were started at a time when it was thought women shouldn't even play sports.
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.
    A quick look at the last Olympics.
    In the 100m, out of 69 men who ran in round 1 of the heats, only 3 men ran slower than the winner of the women's 100m gold medal.
    In the 200m, 75 men ran in the heats. Only 2 men (from the sprinting powerhouses of Benin and Papua New Guinea) ran slower than the women's gold medal winning time. And those two men who ran slower would have ran medal winning times in the women's race.
    I could go on. I would wager that the trend would continue for all track and field sports. In every physically demanding sport, women would never make an impression if men and women competed together.

    I'd be fairly left leaning in a lot of my views also, but transgender athletes competing alongside biological women in sports is a joke.


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    #1753
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    silverharp wrote: »
    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. Female sports were started at a time when it was thought women shouldn't even play sports.
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.


    That is pure ridiculousness.
    Have you taken into account what the motivation for young girls would be to start participating in a sport if all they have to look forward to is coming 110th in something?


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    #1754
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    I'd normally fall to the left with my opinions but this is a step too far IMO. I can't understand how this is getting any kind of support. It's massively unfair to female athletes all for the sake of appeasing a tiny, tiny minority of people.

    It's getting support because many so-called progressives wish to define a "female athlete" as anyone who identifies as female, ignoring the evident size and strength advantages that biological males have over biological females.

    It's ideology versus physics, basically.


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    #1755
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    That is pure ridiculousness.
    Have you taken into account what the motivation for young girls would be to start participating in a sport if all they have to look forward to is coming 110th in something?

    What motivation does anyone have to start participating in a sport? Maybe it’s because they find it an enjoyable and healthy passtime, rather than because of fantasies of collecting Olympic Gold, which will only become a reality for a very few.


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    #1756
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,564 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But the worst men don't play at the top level in sports. If you look at soccer 18 year old boys would destroy the top-level women. There are hundreds of thousands of male players all over the world who would make a team before the best woman would.

    Even worse. The USA women's soccer team (literally the best in the world) were hammered by a local U-15 team boy's team - a pattern seen in several countries worldwide. Yet there were calls for the team to not alone be paid equally to the men's team, but to be paid more!


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    #1757
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Even worse. The USA women's soccer team (literally the best in the world) were hammered by a local U-15 team boy's team - a pattern seen in several countries worldwide. Yet there were calls for the team to not alone be paid equally to the men's team, but to be paid more!

    International players don’t get paid for representing their country afaik, or if they do the fees are small, and nothing compared to what the men can earn at club level.


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    #1758
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    What motivation does anyone have to start participating in a sport? Maybe it’s because they find it an enjoyable and healthy passtime, rather than because of fantasies of collecting Olympic Gold, which will only become a reality for a very few.

    Or maybe it's because they've been inspired by an athlete or team that they look up to. This year's Wimbledon sensation Cori "Coco" Gauff was inspired to take up tennis because of the Williams sisters, for instance. If the top spots in women's tennis had been dominated by biological men, would she have been similarly inspired to emulate them? Probably not.


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    #1759
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    Cassius Whispering Scavenger wrote: »
    Or maybe it's because they've been inspired by an athlete or team that they look up to. This year's Wimbledon sensation Cori "Coco" Gauff was inspired to take up tennis because of the Williams sisters, for instance. If the top spots in women's tennis had been dominated by biological men, would she have been similarly inspired to emulate them? Probably not.

    I’m sure plenty of girls playing soccer are inspired by top male professionals.


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    #1760
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    What motivation does anyone have to start participating in a sport? Maybe it’s because they find it an enjoyable and healthy passtime, rather than because of fantasies of collecting Olympic Gold, which will only become a reality for a very few.


    No-one is talking exclusively about the highest end of sport like the Olympic Games

    But where do you think those female Olympians, female district champions, county champions, provincial champions, national champions begin?
    The local club/school/college maybe?


    Now what happens to those female chances to enjoy and compete on a fair level maybe just maybe leading onto a district/county/provincial/national level when males also into sport decide one day to 'self-ID' as female?


    Why don't we see transmen clambering to compete in male boxing or football or hurling?


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    #1761
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    I’m sure plenty of girls playing soccer are inspired by top male professionals.


    Yet not one of them could compete or be picked for the male squad.


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    #1762
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    No-one is talking exclusively about the highest end of sport like the Olympic Games

    But where do you think those female Olympians, female district champions, county champions, provincial champions, national champions begin?
    The local club/school/college maybe?


    Now what happens to those female chances to enjoy and compete on a fair level maybe just maybe leading onto a district/county/provincial/national level when males also into sport decide one day to 'self-ID' as female?


    Why don't we see transmen clambering to compete in male boxing or football or hurling?

    Hurling? We have self ID here in Ireland; are transwomen clambering to play camogie?

    A quick google tells me there have been transmen in sport, including US triathlete Chris Mosier, who was on the US team at the 2016 World Championship, and professional boxer Pat Manuel.


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    #1763
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    Yet not one of them could compete or be picked for the male squad.

    So? A lightweight boxer might be inspired by Ali despite not being able to box in Ali’s weight division.


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    #1764
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    silverharp wrote: »
    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. Female sports were started at a time when it was thought women shouldn't even play sports.
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.

    I will ask you again. Why do you think sport is segregated by sex?


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    #1765
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,305 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    silverharp wrote: »
    there would still be value to being the best female, sponsorship or whatnot plus maybe in a sport like you might get the occasional woman make it to a world cup. Female sports were started at a time when it was thought women shouldn't even play sports.
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.

    What are you on about? Teenage boys compete at a level that can smash womens elite world record in most sports

    Women have their own sports because they fought for them and this shouldn't be just given away to appease a few men.


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    #1766
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There is a solution. If the genuine females don't like it they should refuse to compete, or the sport is segregated by chromosome
    An even better and simpler solution is if you've gone through male puberty, you cannot compete in female sports. Biology should trump ideology. I blame this nonsense on the explosion in the last few years in ****e such as "gender studies".


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    #1767
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What are you on about? Teenage boys compete at a level that can smash womens elite world record in most sports

    Women have their own sports because they fought for them and this shouldn't be just given away to appease a few men.
    HOW DARE YOU?? :mad: They identify as female and that makes them as much female as anyone with two x chromosomes /s


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    #1768
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    I wonder if Rachel has any fresh takes on advising children to seek out older non-parental family figures from trusted members of her community.


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    #1769
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    silverharp wrote: »
    At the end of the day there are very few sports where the "worst" man is better than the best woman and we live in a world where we compete in every other area of life.

    Well, a man needs to run the 100 metres in at least 10.05 seconds just to qualify for the 2020 Olympic Games. That qualifying time is almost half a second faster than the current women's world record of 10.49. The upshot, then, is that no woman would qualify to run the 100 metres and it would be an all-male contest. The same thing would happen across many other sports too.

    So I see the rationale for segregating by gender. But allowing biological males to compete in women's sports if they "identify" as female makes a mockery of that rationale.


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    #1770
    normanoffside
    Registered Users Posts: 10,081 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Cassius Whispering Scavenger wrote: »
    Well, a man needs to run the 100 metres in at least 10.05 seconds just to qualify for the 2020 Olympic Games. That qualifying time is almost half a second faster than the current women's world record of 10.49. The upshot, then, is that no woman would qualify to run the 100 metres and it would be an all-male contest. The same thing would happen across many other sports too.

    So I see the rationale for segregating by gender. But allowing biological males to compete in women's sports if they "identify" as female makes a mockery of that rationale.

    That's also not really the WR. It's been pretty much shown that Flo-Jo ran that time with a gale behind her but somehow the wind reading machine was broke and showed a 0.0. Flo-Jo's next best time (and second best time ever) was 10.61 which would be closer to a real WR, next best woman ever was 10.64 ( a Doper). Flo-Jo was also juiced to the gills.

    No woman has ran faster that 10.70 for 10 years.


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    #1771
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,557 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    HOW DARE YOU?? :mad: They identify as female and that makes them as much female as anyone with two x chromosomes /s

    why the '/s' ?

    /s

    ?


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