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Biological males in women's sport
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The athletes in that case arent even transitioned. They dont even take hormones. Literally they have long hair and that's it. That makes them a girl apparently
'Transitioned' in todays world means no more that self IDing as a woman - I say that I am a woman therefore I am and you cannot question that. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
I genuinely support trans women who desperately struggle with dysphoria and need to make changes. They make meaningful changes and do not make demands on women and society, they have been around forever and get on with their lives and if they are a decent person they will be supported by other decent people. What is going on now is far removed from that and these genuine people are suffering the backlash.
No matter how many hormones, how many surgeries, how long your hair is, how much lipstick you wear and how many demands you make, a biological male can never, ever be a woman, a trans woman if they choose, but never a woman.0 -
Human rights do not cover trans women competing in female sports though so your point is moot. This kind of nonsensical talking and pushing these agendas only breeds negative attitudes towards trans people. What % of people are trans? You place the rights of a tiny minority of trans over the majority of women in sports.
They do though, and that’s why the argument is coming up, precisely because people who are transgender are exercising their human rights. I’m not placing anyone’s human rights above anyone else’s. The point is that human rights are a balancing act which are intended to recognise the human dignity in every human being, and to promote and protect their rights, placing an obligation on everyone in society to work together to promote social cohesion.Here's a real human right.
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
Maybe the trans community and it's supporters can stop attacking and ruining the careers of people who oppose some of their ideas. Then an honest and open debate can happen.
Doesn’t everyone in society have that right though? Surely by your own standards people who disagree with you also have that right. Perhaps your idea of an open and honest debate is different from mine where you imagine that the outcome would be that everyone will comply with your opinion. When your starting position is that you’re not aware that people who are transgender are protected by human rights law, an open and honest discussion is going to be a bit awkward.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »They do though, and that’s why the argument is coming up, precisely because people who are transgender are exercising their human rights. I’m not placing anyone’s human rights above anyone else’s. The point is that human rights are a balancing act which are intended to recognise the human dignity in every human being, and to promote and protect their rights, placing an obligation on everyone in society to work together to promote social cohesion.
Doesn’t everyone in society have that right though? Surely by your own standards people who disagree with you also have that right. Perhaps your idea of an open and honest debate is different from mine where you imagine that the outcome would be that everyone will comply with your opinion. When your starting position is that you’re not aware that people who are transgender are protected by human rights law, an open and honest discussion is going to be a bit awkward.
I never said that though did I? I didn't say trans people aren't covered by human rights. I mean specifically the right to compete in women's sports is not covered.
Can you reference the human right that covers trans women competing in women's sports? It's your interpretation of 1 of them which you are entitled to make but there is nothing set in stone that covers that.
That's why it's open to debate. The constant angle to try and paint anyone who disagrees with you as a trans phobe makes that impossible though. You have just done it yourself.
Steroids are banned from sports because they give an unfair advantage. Going through male puberty gives the same advantages as long term steroid use a lot of which is maintained even after female hormone treatment and testosterone suppressors.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Women’s rights aren’t being infringed upon though because women are still able to compete in their chosen sports.
Promoting the sport among a wider audience, attracting sponsors and developing the sport at community, national and international level.
I can’t guarantee anything any more than you can. I can understand how it suits you of course to believe the majority of people share your opinion, but until they voice either their support or their objections, neither of us could possibly know either way.
You can guarentee it. Look at the social stigma behind a man hitting a women versus another man, how people react to bullies (who usually pick on someone weaker than them, or the fact that we already segregate sports based on sex.
There would be a public outcry if Katie Taylor had to step in the ring against a biological man in order to defend her belts. You know this aswell as I do, as much as you'll pretend you don't.0 -
I never said that though did I? I didn't say trans people aren't covered by human rights. I mean specifically the right to compete in women's sports is not covered.
Can you reference the human right that covers trans women competing in women's sports? It's your interpretation of 1 of them which you are entitled to make but there is nothing set in stone that covers that.
That's why it's open to debate. The constant angle to try and paint anyone who disagrees with you as a trans phobe makes that impossible though. You have just done it yourself.
Their right not to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender gives them the right to compete in women’s sports. What’s open to debate after that is the qualifying criteria of the sport in question. In women’s sports the debate is primarily around the limits on testosterone levels.
I haven’t painted anyone as a transphobe either btw, never have and never will, in spite of that being the second time you have tried to accuse me of doing so. That’s hardly an open and honest discussion/debate, whichever. Perhaps you could stop accusing people who disagree with you of things they haven’t done.0 -
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You know, it's weird; all this hate towards trans people (almost entirely against transwomen) really picked up only in the last few years. And a lot of those people are repackaging arguments used against gay people.
So I wonder, is there maybe some connection? Perhaps increasing acceptance of the Ls, Gs, and Bs, means they're turning to the next easy target down the line? It'd certainly go a long way to explaining the very noticeably sudden increase in hate against trans people by people who had nary a peep about them until only a few years ago...0 -
BarnardsLoop wrote: »You know, it's weird; all this hate towards trans people (almost entirely against transwomen) really picked up only in the last few years. And a lot of those people are repackaging arguments used against gay people.
So I wonder, is there maybe some connection? Perhaps increasing acceptance of the Ls, Gs, and Bs, means they're turning to the next easy target down the line? It'd certainly go a long way to explaining the very noticeably sudden increase in hate against trans people by people who had nary a peep about them until only a few years ago...
There is no "hate" towards trans-people in this thread. People like FTA are ardent leftwingers for example. The issue is should trans-men be able to compete in women's sports due to the unfair biological advantages they have aswell as the potential danger of it.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Their right not to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender gives them the right to compete in women’s sports. What’s open to debate after that is the qualifying criteria of the sport in question. In women’s sports the debate is primarily around the limits on testosterone levels.
I haven’t painted anyone as a transphobe either btw, never have and never will, in spite of that being the second time you have tried to accuse me of doing so. That’s hardly an open and honest discussion/debate, whichever. Perhaps you could stop accusing people who disagree with you of things they haven’t done.
That is your interpretation of that right. It doesn't paper over the debate over this which has plenty of valid concerns backed by scientific data.
A simple testosterone test doesn't cover the biological advantages they have which were linked earlier. The criteria needs to be far more advanced than that.
You haven't no but you are trying to imply it at times misrepresenting me by saying I didn't think trans people had human rights.
And here we go.BarnardsLoop wrote: »You know, it's weird; all this hate towards trans people (almost entirely against transwomen) really picked up only in the last few years. And a lot of those people are repackaging arguments used against gay people.
So I wonder, is there maybe some connection? Perhaps increasing acceptance of the Ls, Gs, and Bs, means they're turning to the next easy target down the line? It'd certainly go a long way to explaining the very noticeably sudden increase in hate against trans people by people who had nary a peep about them until only a few years ago...0 -
Aren't those blockers dangerous and when we say puberty blockers they are actually drugs used for cancer treatment to suppress certain hormones.
I could be way off here and its just bull**** but thats what i thought it was.
yes, i think lupron is one of them and it's supposed to be dangerous.
my understanding is that it lowers IQ and has other side effects in children.
jazz jennings' life seems fairly messed up as a result of this kind of thing0 -
BarnardsLoop wrote: »You know, it's weird; all this hate towards trans people (almost entirely against transwomen) really picked up only in the last few years. And a lot of those people are repackaging arguments used against gay people.
So I wonder, is there maybe some connection? Perhaps increasing acceptance of the Ls, Gs, and Bs, means they're turning to the next easy target down the line? It'd certainly go a long way to explaining the very noticeably sudden increase in hate against trans people by people who had nary a peep about them until only a few years ago...
How so? Like, on this very issue, biological males participating in women’s sports? In what way is this repackaged homophobia?
The reason we’re hearing more about it is that problems are coming to the fore. I’m glad that people are starting to refuse to be cowed by inflammatory epithets being deployed against them.0 -
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CtevenSrowder wrote: »You can guarentee it. Look at the social stigma behind a man hitting a women versus another man, how people react to bullies (who usually pick on someone weaker than them, or the fact that we already segregate sports based on sex.
There would be a public outcry if Katie Taylor had to step in the ring against a biological man in order to defend her belts. You know this aswell as I do, as much as you'll pretend you don't.
You’re talking about a very different context there, and of course in those circumstances it’s generally a given that a man hitting a woman is socially unacceptable and abhorrent behaviour. That’s a fair point and one I totally accept, in spite of a growing number of people who argue that “gender equality” means a man has a right to hit a woman.
There probably wouldn’t be any public outcry though if for example I were to step into a ring with Katie Taylor. I’m not even sure I could depend on my Homer Simpson-like ability to take an unmerciful beating and remain standing would win me the fight in those circumstances. Given that she is undoubtedly fitter than I am, she would easily wipe the floor with me.
Whether that would mean people would feel one way or the other about biological males competing in women’s sports is still debatable. Take for example the US ladies football team trouncing the Thai ladies team in the Women’s World Cup. If the Thai team were completely made up of ladyboys, I still wouldn’t fancy their chances against the US ladies team.0 -
""It is recognised that the requirement for parental consent or the consent of a legal guardian can be restrictive and problematic for minors.’
While cultural and political factors play a key role in the approach to be taken, there are certain techniques that emerge as being effective in progressing trans rights in the “good practice” countries.’
Get ahead of the government agenda.
In many of the NGO advocacy campaigns that we studied, there were clear benefits where NGOs managed to get ahead of the government and publish progressive legislative proposal before the government had time to develop their own. NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate proposal than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposals.’
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.’
Another technique which has been used to great effect is the limitation of press coverage and exposure. In certain countries, like the UK, information on legal gender recognition reforms has been misinterpreted in the mainstream media, and opposition has arisen as a result. ….Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise.
In Ireland, activists have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue.""
*******
The above are direct quotes from The Denton Document. I quoted relevant parts because most people do not bother reading long links.
This is a document drawn up in late 2019 by Dentons and Reuter Thomson Foundation, for a Europe wide LGBT+ Youth association and an unnamed UK Charity which I believe to be Mermaids (or less likely Stonewall, the oldest LGBT movement in Europe, which has recently seem a major split in its organisation over trans issues).
Dentons describes itself as the largest law firm in the world.
The document is a template for NGO trans lobby groups.
When people say most don't care or know about these issues, take note that one specific strategy is keeping things in this arena on the low down, minimise publicity, have public policy ready-made prior to public discussion.
Scotland for example is seen as a failure because word got out, people reacted and self ID could not be presented as a fait accompli as it has been in Ireland. Riding the coat tails of other movements like gay marriage is also specifically recommended.
Notice how even on boards the activists who use to rage about the trans bigots say little now, perhaps because it is the strategy. Do not react and the voices calling for a halt will fizzle out.
Trans issues in sports is getting away from the idealogues however because it is so visceral, so visible.
But it cuts to the heart of so many issues gender theorists have tried to foist into the public consciousness. If a trans person actually IS, as the activists claim, and want enshrined in law, the sex they say they are then there can be ZERO exceptions, not in prisons, not in wards, not in changing rooms, and thus not in sports. It is or would a legally protected state of being.
Mostly people need now to ask themselves how they were so readily entrained by illogical demands. How children could have been allowed to be abused for so long. How men could have entered womens prisons. How men could have entered womens sports. How children have been allowed to be taught ascientific concepts in schools. It is a model worth studying of fairly wide-scale brain washing and ideological enforcement.
It will not happen for a while yet as some powerful lobby groups are still caught up and quite a few people still see themselves as noble allies in a righteous cause, but such studies and self examination will come in time.
Transgenderism exists. People deserve dignity. But to have allowed gender theory to subvert human reason has been a terrible thing.
Sports may be the issue that speeds the incoherence up. Good.0 -
You haven't no but you are trying to imply it at times misrepresenting me by saying I didn't think trans people had human rights.
You can be assured I’m not trying to imply any such thing, I have no intent to misrepresent your opinion. I’m not taking responsibility for anyone else’s behaviour or attitude either.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »You’re talking about a very different context there, and of course in those circumstances it’s generally a given that a man hitting a woman is socially unacceptable and abhorrent behaviour. That’s a fair point and one I totally accept, in spite of a growing number of people who argue that “gender equality” means a man has a right to hit a woman.
There probably wouldn’t be any public outcry though if for example I were to step into a ring with Katie Taylor. I’m not even sure I could depend on my Homer Simpson-like ability to take an unmerciful beating and remain standing would win me the fight in those circumstances. Given that she is undoubtedly fitter than I am, she would easily wipe the floor with me.
Whether that would mean people would feel one way or the other about biological males competing in women’s sports is still debatable. Take for example the US ladies football team trouncing the Thai ladies team in the Women’s World Cup. If the Thai team were completely made up of ladyboys, I still wouldn’t fancy their chances against the US ladies team.
Yes but a boxer challenging for the World whatever belt she holds will have some semblance of boxing knowledge. It won't be some boxing nobody in their first bout.
The ladyboy point may be true but if they came up against a group of ladyboys with a similar skill level they'd lose more than likely.
And this is the main point. People tend to play sports against those of a similar skill level. If they are against those that are naturally much stronger, taller, fitter it results in total mismatch and farce. And this is what allowing biological men against women will lead to.0 -
But it cuts to the heart of so many issues gender theorists have tried to foist into the public consciousness. If a trans person actually IS, as the activists claim, and want enshrined in law, the sex they say they are then there can be ZERO exceptions, not in prisons, not in wards, not in changing rooms, and thus not in sports. It is or would a legally protected state of being.
Discrimination is lawful in certain circumstances where it can be justified as a means to achieve a legitimate aim. In this case it could be argued that discrimination against a person could be justified in order to protect female athletes. Whether it would be lawful or not would depend upon the circumstances in each case, but it was one of the reasons why Yanniv’s complainants were dismissed for example.
That’s standard in equality legislation though and would apply to people who are transgender the same way it applies in respect of any of the other grounds of discrimination.0 -
There is opposition to men who choose to self ID as women and seek/demand access to single sex spaces and sports. Many LGB people are not on board with this and feel that Trans Rights Activists are causing much harm to many trans people and the LGB community. Lesbians are now expected to welcome all trans women into lesbian spaces/events and to totally accept them as lesbians and that a lesbian penis is perfectly normal. If you do not accept this you are a transphobe and you will be asked to leave and ostracized. There are now breakaway groups for LGB people, for people who actually are same sex attracted. They, of course, are getting much hatred from TRA'sBarnardsLoop wrote: »You know, it's weird; all this hate towards trans people (almost entirely against transwomen) really picked up only in the last few years. And a lot of those people are repackaging arguments used against gay people.
So I wonder, is there maybe some connection? Perhaps increasing acceptance of the Ls, Gs, and Bs, means they're turning to the next easy target down the line? It'd certainly go a long way to explaining the very noticeably sudden increase in hate against trans people by people who had nary a peep about them until only a few years ago...0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Yes but a boxer challenging for the World whatever belt she holds will have some semblance of boxing knowledge. It won't be some boxing nobody in their first bout.
The ladyboy point may be true but if they came up against a group of ladyboys with a similar skill level they'd lose more than likely.
And this is the main point. People tend to play sports against those of a similar skill level. If they are against those that are naturally much stronger, taller, fitter it results in total mismatch and farce. And this is what allowing biological men against women will lead to.
I think what’s far more likely to happen is the same thing that happens now - each case of a complaint will be dealt with on the merits of each individual case. That’s why I think the Connecticut case will fail, but I don’t think the point was ever to win, but rather to publicise the issue.0 -
BarnardsLoop wrote: »You know, it's weird; all this hate towards trans people (almost entirely against transwomen) really picked up only in the last few years. And a lot of those people are repackaging arguments used against gay people.
So I wonder, is there maybe some connection? Perhaps increasing acceptance of the Ls, Gs, and Bs, means they're turning to the next easy target down the line? It'd certainly go a long way to explaining the very noticeably sudden increase in hate against trans people by people who had nary a peep about them until only a few years ago...
This is an example of the lack of understanding that people have with this issue. And as you piont out most of the criticism is against trans women..... do you know why that is? Because they have an advantage over non trans women I
sporting events . A trans man has no advantage over non trans men in sport.
It's a very logical argument. Men and women have been separated because of thier physical differences. So if a trans women still has physical advantages over non trans women why is it fair they compete in the same event? But now if you say this logical argument you are a hater.... which is ridiculous.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Discrimination is lawful in certain circumstances where it can be justified as a means to achieve a legitimate aim. In this case it could be argued that discrimination against a person could be justified in order to protect female athletes. Whether it would be lawful or not would depend upon the circumstances in each case, but it was one of the reasons why Yanniv’s complainants were dismissed for example.
That’s standard in equality legislation though and would apply to people who are transgender the same way it applies in respect of any of the other grounds of discrimination.
I'll break down into logical steps, why Trans women should not be allowed into women's sports. Tell me at which numbered point in the argument you disagree:
1. Sports are segregated by sex because males have a huge advantage over females.
2. If this sex based segregation was removed, no woman would ever win a medal in the Olympics, except for maybe floor gymnastics.
3. This is bad, hence why sports are segregated by sex.
4. Males gain this physical advantage by progressing through puberty.
5. No amount of post puberty cross sex hormones will ever remove that physical advantage.
6. Therefore, trans women cannot be allowed into the restricted class of female sports. They retain the advantages of being male.
That this has to be explained is bizarre.0 -
Honestly Jack, I’ve never seen someone write so much, in such a whimsical fashion and still manage to make no point whatsoever.
Pretty much every post you’re making is a load of off-hand dismissals and whataboutery peppered with the idea that women should shut up and tolerate something which is blatantly obvious to be total b*llocks.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I think what’s far more likely to happen is the same thing that happens now - each case of a complaint will be dealt with on the merits of each individual case. That’s why I think the Connecticut case will fail, but I don’t think the point was ever to win, but rather to publicise the issue.
Well obviously it to win the case and also publicize the issue and I hope they win.
No one has a problem with transgender people whatsoever but Sorry if your a transgender female and taking part in female sports i think that person is an absolute selfish **** and would have no time for them whatsoever. Just compete in the male sports for God sake.
In my opinion its like there doing it on purpose just to piss people off or they have a serious mental illness where they can't understand the consequences of theirs actions. It's almost like there thinking "I couldn't make it in Male sports, ah sure I'll take part in womens sports so just to boost my ego even though I know I am at a huge advantage".
Just because your transgender female should not give you the same rights as a born female in every aspect of life.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Discrimination is lawful in certain circumstances where it can be justified as a means to achieve a legitimate aim. In this case it could be argued that discrimination against a person could be justified in order to protect female athletes. Whether it would be lawful or not would depend upon the circumstances in each case, but it was one of the reasons why Yanniv’s complainants were dismissed for example.
That’s standard in equality legislation though and would apply to people who are transgender the same way it applies in respect of any of the other grounds of discrimination.
We've been tying our heads in intellectual knots in the West and I do wonder if this descent into confusion is going to lead to any long term good.
This current discussion about whether trans women are women, what is a woman and so on is the fruit of what used to only rage in philosophy faculties at universities. What is truth? Is truth objective or is it relative? If it is relative then what I define myself as is "my truth". Who are you to tell me what truth is? Isn't that just your truth.
The denial of objective categories and objective truth is bringing society into this level of confusion as each particular identification group is jostling for the universal recognition of "their truth" at the expense of others. In this case in the participation in sports.
The denial of an objective source of truth namely God has sped up this descent into chaos a great deal. If you deny God then truth has to be constructed somehow. Particularly in respect to non-observable matters like identity.0 -
I would say **** god but I am a massive atheist.0
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More and more studies coming online now...
'Muscle strength, size and composition following 12 months of gender-affirming treatment in transgender individuals'
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgz247/5651219?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Results
Thigh muscle volume increased (15%) in TM, which was paralleled by increased quadriceps cross-sectional area (CSA) (15%) and radiological density (6%). In TW, the corresponding parameters decreased by -5% (muscle volume) and -4% (CSA), while density remained unaltered. The TM increased strength over the assessment period, while the TW generally maintained their strength levels.
Conclusions
One year of gender-affirming treatment resulted in robust increases in muscle mass and strength in TM, but modest changes in TW. These findings add new knowledge on the magnitude of changes in muscle function, size and composition with cross-hormone therapy, which could be relevant when evaluating the transgender eligibility rules for athletic competitions.
Another article written by an Endocrinologist on the possible advantages that the MMA fighter Fallon Fox had over her opponents;
https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/20/4128658/dr-ramona-krutzik-endocrinologist-discusses-possible-advantages-fallon-fox-has0 -
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1089956/transgender-weightlifter-wins-in-rome
Article written on feb 1st. The absolute fcukery in it. Hubbard is an unreconstructed man and this male journalist is totally gas lighting all NZ female weight lifters who might want to go to the Olympics0 -
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1089956/transgender-weightlifter-wins-in-rome
Article written on feb 1st. The absolute fcukery in it. Hubbard is an unreconstructed man and this male journalist is totally gas lighting all NZ female weight lifters who might want to go to the Olympics
Ugh. I really hope a biological female isn’t robbed of a spot. Being able to call oneself an Olympian is such a huge honour.0 -
putting this person on a stage with female athletes is not only grossly unfair to the female athletes, its also cruel to make a spectacle of someone who is clearly profoundly unwell.0 -
We live in a mad world :pac:0
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Let them compete in a trans Olympics.0
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alan partridge aha wrote: »Let them compete in a trans Olympics.
maybe the paralympics, they are classified by severity of impairment, with 1 being most impaired and 6 or 8 being least impaired (depending on sport). maybe they could add 9 for not impaired, and 10 and 11 for trans athletes...0
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