Biological males in women's sport

Tired Gardener

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IStandWithHer1/status/1286189910467260416?s=19

Here seems to be another example of it, though from few years ago. Horrible back story, but that doesn't make a 50 year old male playing basketball with (college age) women at this level acceptable! The tweets make a good point though. What about the girl that this trans-women took the place off!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/04/college-basketball-transgender-player-gabrielle-ludwig-robert-ludwig-mission-college/1744703/

Wait... So let me get this right, a male to female transgender of 51 year old is in a team of 18-20 year old women. Why aren't they in a team of the same age? Surely the age gap of 31-33 years gives them a huge experience advantage.

None of that makes any sense, are people seriously ok with this?

Invidious

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Wait... So let me get this right, a male to female transgender of 51 year old is in a team of 18-20 year old women. Why aren't they in a team of the same age? Surely the age gap of 31-33 years gives them a huge experience advantage.

None of that makes any sense, are people seriously ok with this?

This story is from 2012, AFAIK.

You can play on a college sports team if you're an enrolled student. Obviously most students are in the 18-22 age range but mature students are also eligible.

I'm not sure that age alone gives a player an advantage (an average 20-year-old would surely run rings around an average 50-year-old on the basketball court) but the fact that they were male-bodied and 6' 6" tall might help just a little bit.

ceadaoin.

Invidious wrote: »

This story is from 2012, AFAIK.

You can play on a college sports team if you're an enrolled student. Obviously most students are in the 18-22 age range but mature students are also eligible.

I'm not sure that age alone gives a player an advantage (an average 20-year-old would surely run rings around an average 50-year-old on the basketball court) but the fact that they were male-bodied and 6' 6" tall might help just a little bit.

That person had already played basketball their first time around in college and had also had worked as a basketball coach during their adult life. So, yes, they had an advantage. I wonder would they be so quick to recruit a 50 year old female to the team? Cant see it happening somehow.

ingalway

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Wait... So let me get this right, a male to female transgender of 51 year old is in a team of 18-20 year old women. Why aren't they in a team of the same age? Surely the age gap of 31-33 years gives them a huge experience advantage.

None of that makes any sense, are people seriously ok with this?

No matter what the persons age is a trans woman should not be on any female team.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ingalway wrote: »

No matter what the persons age is a trans woman should not be on any female team.

Exactly. A woman lost a place on that team because of it.

ceadaoin.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Exactly. A woman lost a place on that team because of it.

Not just a place on the team. With scholarships, a woman could have lost a place in college. The 2 male athletes currently dominating track in Connecticut will have their pick of colleges. The girls they displaced, probably not so much.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Not just a place on the team. With scholarships, a woman could have lost a place in college. The 2 male athletes currently dominating track in Connecticut will have their pick of colleges. The girls they displaced, probably not so much.

Surely colleges must be a bit reluctant to give scholarships to transgender athletes? I think transgender women competing in women’s sports will be a relatively short-lived phenomenon so it doesn’t seem like a wise investment.

ingalway

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Surely colleges must be a bit reluctant to give scholarships to transgender athletes? I think transgender women competing in women’s sports will be a relatively short-lived phenomenon so it doesn’t seem like a wise investment.

You must be joking - if they didn't laud them for their great achievements and give them female scholarship places there would be major fallout for them - they would be called out for transphobia, people would be cancelled and fired and more safe spaces would need to be provided for the triggered students.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ingalway wrote: »

You must be joking - if they didn't laud them for their great achievements and give them female scholarship places there would be major fallout for them - they would be called out for transphobia, people would be cancelled and fired and more safe spaces would need to be provided for the triggered students.

I don’t know. More than any other facet of this wider debate, transgender women in women’s sports is the area that enjoys the least support, from what I can see. The more it’s highlighted, the more it seems to be criticised.

ingalway

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know. More than any other facet of this wider debate, transgender women in women’s sports is the area that enjoys the least support, from what I can see. The more it’s highlighted, the more it seems to be criticised.

I really wish you were right and it were that simple. Trans rights activists are so vocal and apply so much pressure that people dare not step out of line, the repercussions are vicious, no where more so than on a college campus. It is hate speech to 'misgender' someone, even if that person has a beard, an adams apple and deep voice - if they say they are female, or non-binary, you MUST refer to them as she/her/they/them. If you are uncomfortable with them in the female changing rooms having a shower with you then you are expected to leave. Universities, more than anywhere else, have allowed this identity politics madness to prevail; I don't see them having the balls, literally, to come back from it.

volchitsa

ingalway wrote: »

You must be joking - if they didn't laud them for their great achievements and give them female scholarship places there would be major fallout for them - they would be called out for transphobia, people would be cancelled and fired and more safe spaces would need to be provided for the triggered students.

Do you have any examples of this please? (Not disbelieving you, I know there are some crazy things going on, but I think it's important to be able to name/link to them.)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

volchitsa wrote: »

Do you have any examples of this please? (Not disbelieving you, I know there are some crazy things going on, but I think it's important to be able to name/link to them.)

I don’t think it has happened yet. But one thing about the Connecticut case is that it stopped a few girls qualifying for the state championships where college scouts would be present.

I’m not convinced that college scholarships will be given to transgender athletes. It a significant financial outlay and you want to know you’ll see a benefit from it. If in a few years, transgender women can no longer compete in women’s sports, it will have been for nothing.

BattleCorp

volchitsa wrote: »

Do you have any examples of this please? (Not disbelieving you, I know there are some crazy things going on, but I think it's important to be able to name/link to them.)

I can't give you any examples but when you think about it logically, it has to be happening. My rationale for thinking this is set out below.

Certain colleges normally have a set number of sporting scholarships for males and females each year, e.g. 5 spots for female sprinters and 5 spots for male sprinters. So, if a transwoman excels at sprinting (which they most likely would due to the physical advantage that male puberty gives them), they are likely to be chosen ahead of natural born female sprinters............therefore denying the natural born female sprinter of her place in college.

Transwomen are displacing women from the podium so it's not a stretch to see them displacing them when it comes to female scholarships too.

volchitsa

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't give you any examples but when you think about it logically, it has to be happening. My rationale for thinking this is set out below.

Certain colleges normally have a set number of sporting scholarships for males and females each year, e.g. 5 spots for female sprinters and 5 spots for male sprinters. So, if a transwoman excels at sprinting (which they most likely would due to the physical advantage that male puberty gives them), they are likely to be chosen ahead of natural born female sprinters............therefore denying the natural born female sprinter of her place in college.

Transwomen are displacing women from the podium so it's not a stretch to see them displacing them when it comes to female scholarships too.

It's not a stretch - I was prepared to believe it if there was any sort of link, but people still shouldn't make false claims. If it's not happening, then it's a lie to say it is. Apart from anything else, if it ever does happen then nobody will believe it if they fell for a lie about it before.

It's easy for trans activists to disprove this sort of untrue claim so as to discredit anyone who has any concerns about trans gender issues. There's enough true stuff that's happening without making sh1t up.

GreeBo

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

Dear me.

There is no one way for women’s bodies to be. Women, including women who are transgender, intersex, or disabled, have a range of different physical characteristics.

so trans women competing in the ladies special olympics next it seems.

ThunbergsAreGo

GreeBo wrote: »

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

Dear me.


so trans women competing in the ladies special olympics next it seems.

That article is promoting the removal of gender in sport it seems, with no differentiation between Men/Women

GreeBo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

That article is promoting the removal of gender in sport it seems, with no differentiation between Men/Women

Or disability.

So basically sport = able bodied people born male.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

volchitsa wrote: »

It's not a stretch - I was prepared to believe it if there was any sort of link, but people still shouldn't make false claims. If it's not happening, then it's a lie to say it is. Apart from anything else, if it ever does happen then nobody will believe it if they fell for a lie about it before.

It's easy for trans activists to disprove this sort of untrue claim so as to discredit anyone who has any concerns about trans gender issues. There's enough true stuff that's happening without making sh1t up.

I do agree.

I just think people are just trying to envisage where this will go though, what the logical conclusion will be.

I try to base my own posts on things that have already happened. The Connecticut teenagers missing out on a college scout-attended event, the UFC fighter who broke another competitor’s skull (and gloated about it afterwards) and the likes of Laurel Hubbard stealing the top of the podium from others and potentially qualifying for the Olympics ahead of them.

ingalway

GreeBo wrote: »

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

Dear me.


so trans women competing in the ladies special olympics next it seems.

There absolutely is not one way for all women's bodies to look like but they absolutely are all biologically female.

Disabled women are females, black women are females, people with Disorders of Sex Development are either male or female - they are not some mythical 3rd sex and nothing whatsoever to do with trans issues.

The trans 'community', mostly white males, keep using women who they do not deem as real women as some kind of reason that they are just as much a woman as a black, disabled, DSD woman. It's completely racist, ableist and insulting and they should be called out on it. I have seen many of the above women absolutely furious at being othered by trans people as though they are not good enough/real enough women.
Trans women are trans women and they need to sort their own issues out - they are not women's issues.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ingalway wrote: »

There absolutely is not one way for all women's bodies to look like but they absolutely are all biologically female.

Disabled women are females, black women are females, people with Disorders of Sex Development are either male or female - they are not some mythical 3rd sex and nothing whatsoever to do with trans issues.

The trans 'community', mostly white males, keep using women who they do not deem as real women as some kind of reason that they are just as much a woman as a black, disabled, DSD woman. It's completely racist, ableist and insulting and they should be called out on it. I have seen many of the above women absolutely furious at being othered by trans people as though they are not good enough/real enough women.
Trans women are trans women and they need to sort their own issues out - they are not women's issues.

Yeah, that happens to black women all the time and it’s disgusting. Black women are females. The only difference is more melanin. So their exclusion from the same spaces as white women decades ago was despicable and not comparable to women not wanting to share spaces with people who are 99% of the time going to be way stronger than them and who would be classed under male pattern criminality, not female. The way black women are used by some transgender activists is completely racist, by othering them.

Gruffalux

300 female athletes signed a letter sent to the US NCAA, which is the association regulating college athletics, asking that female sports be protected for biological women, and specifically that Idaho state not be boycotted for passing regulations supporting such protection.
Some signed just first names or initials because of feeling afraid of punishment.
All the names on the letter were published yesterday by Outsports, from a leak by NCAA. Outsports claims they are not on a "witch hunt" nor do they encourage "violence" by what is effectively doxxing.
Yeah, sure Outsports.

https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2020/8/2/21351786/ncaa-300-women-athletes-signatories-letter-save-womens-sports-transgender-inclusion?utm_campaign=outsports&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalox wrote: »

300 female athletes signed a letter sent to the US NCAA, which is the association regulating college athletics, asking that female sports be protected for biological women, and specifically that Idaho state not be boycotted for passing regulations supporting such protection.
Some signed just first names or initials because of feeling afraid of punishment.
All the names on the letter were published yesterday by Outsports, from a leak by NCAA. Outsports claims they are not on a "witch hunt" nor do they encourage "violence" by what is effectively doxxing.
Yeah, sure Outsports.

https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2020/8/2/21351786/ncaa-300-women-athletes-signatories-letter-save-womens-sports-transgender-inclusion?utm_campaign=outsports&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Kween Martina is the first signatory. Love that woman.

Honestly, I’m happy for stunts like this. It helps highlight the absurdities. This will be an own goal for that publication.

suicide_circus

Dawn Ennis who wrote that article seems like a real class act. They is doing god's work keeping these cis women in line.

SoupMonster

Gruffalox wrote: »

Yeah, sure Outsports.

There are quite a few feel good news stories on that site that follow a common theme.
- Man tells coach/teammates he's gay.
- Coach/teammates don't care.
- Man so overcome with joy at their ambivalence that he writes to OutSports to express his gratitude.

Riveting stuff.

Still waters

GreeBo wrote: »

Or disability.

So basically sport = able bodied people born male.

Is there any sport where a woman would beat a man in, certainly not any of the mainstream Olympic sports

Dante7

Still waters wrote: »

Is there any sport where a woman would beat a man in, certainly not any of the mainstream Olympic sports

Some gymnastic events.

Dave0301

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Kween Martina is the first signatory. Love that woman.

Honestly, I’m happy for stunts like this. It helps highlight the absurdities. This will be an own goal for that publication.

It is baffling they can't see the hypocrisy in the pursuit of "equal" rights that results in the inequality on female athletes that have worked and train hard in their respective sports.

Putting aside all the other strands that make up the current debate around this topic. Transgender women that have gone through male puberty will have an inherent physical advantage, and that is inescapable.

It will be interesting to see what comes from the work that World Rugby are doing at the moment. It may be possible to take cases in the future on a case by case basis, but allowing it to happen without proper procedures in place will result in non transwomen being discriminated against, and in some sports, being exposed to a serious risk of injury.

Still waters

Realistically what they're doing is opening up sport so men can dominate 99 percent of games, it seems a backwards step to womens rights and the feminist movement to have men prominent in all sports categories, it reminds me of the time the jenner fella won woman of the year, good job by all actively involved in putting women at the back of the queue once again

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Dave0301 wrote: »

It is baffling they can't see the hypocrisy in the pursuit of "equal" rights that results in the inequality on female athletes that have worked and train hard in their respective sports.

Putting aside all the other strands that make up the current debate around this topic. Transgender women that have gone through male puberty will have an inherent physical advantage, and that is inescapable.

It will be interesting to see what comes from the work that World Rugby are doing at the moment. It may be possible to take cases in the future on a case by case basis, but allowing it to happen without proper procedures in place will result in non transwomen being discriminated against, and in some sports, being exposed to a serious risk of injury.

You mean women? :P

All this would be moot if we just allowed all sexes to compete against each other.

I can't see how allowing trans athletes to compete in the opposite SEX categories is any different.

(Note SEX not gender)