Biological males in women's sport

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You mean women? :P

Haha! While I agree with Dave I noticed that too. It is creeping in. I saw someone on Twitter recently who was genuinely eager to build bridges against what they could see was erasure of woman as an ontological category in not just language but accepted meaning, and in their youthful naivety said- there has just got to be another word for humans who have uteruses, vaginas and female parts from birth...it just can't be women.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

All this would be moot if we just allowed all sexes to compete against each other.

I can't see how allowing trans athletes to compete in the opposite SEX categories is any different.

(Note SEX not gender)

Why would we do that? It would decimate women's sports.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Why would we do that? It would decimate women's sports.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm just saying that advocating for transgender athletes to compete in the opposite sex's categories is no different than allowing that.

The only other option I can think of is to have a separate category for trans athletes which is absolutely fair in my opinion.

c.p.w.g.w

Still waters wrote: »

Realistically what they're doing is opening up sport so men can dominate 99 percent of games, it seems a backwards step to womens rights and the feminist movement to have men prominent in all sports categories, it reminds me of the time the jenner fella won woman of the year, good job by all actively involved in putting women at the back of the queue once again

What i found really galling was all the women saying how great it was for Jenner to win...But seriously imagine being a women from a poor background/suffered hardships etc, overcoming those and contributing to society for that piece of sh!t Jenner to win(before transitioning, Jenner killed a man while driving dangerously, but its transphobic to mention that)

c.p.w.g.w

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

What i found really galling was all the women saying how great it was for Jenner to win...But seriously imagine being a women from a poor background/suffered hardships etc, overcoming those and contributing to society for that piece of sh!t Jenner to win(before transitioning, Jenner killed a man while driving dangerously, but its transphobic to mention that)

I think officially Bruce won the medals and was involved in the car incident but Kaitlyn was the one who was in I'm a Celeb so if you refer to the car incident, you are "dead naming"

c.p.w.g.w

Deleted User wrote: »

I think officially Bruce won the medals and was involved in the car incident but Kaitlyn was the one who was in I'm a Celeb so if you refer to the car incident, you are "dead naming"

Ah yeah that load of bollocks...The same person still killed that man...Same way if i changed my name legally after committing a crime, i'd still would have committed the crime

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm just saying that advocating for transgender athletes to compete in the opposite sex's categories is no different than allowing that.

The only other option I can think of is to have a separate category for trans athletes which is absolutely fair in my opinion.

It would be such a tiny category. I know the counterargument there is that if it's such a small number of athletes, then women's sports wouldn't really be under threat, but that small pool of transgender athletes could really skew things for women because the physical advantages are so great.

cloudatlas

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Why would we do that? It would decimate women's sports.

Tokyo Testosterone Olympics 2030

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It would be such a tiny category. I know the counterargument there is that if it's such a small number of athletes, then women's sports wouldn't really be under threat, but that small pool of transgender athletes could really skew things for women because the physical advantages are so great.

I'm afraid that's just tough ****. Trans athletes don't fit into their preferred category by virtue of their biology so either be in a niche category or come to terms that you can't compete.

Dave0301

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You mean women? :P

Gruffalox wrote: »

Haha! While I agree with Dave I noticed that too. It is creeping in. I saw someone on Twitter recently who was genuinely eager to build bridges against what they could see was erasure of woman as an ontological category in not just language but accepted meaning, and in their youthful naivety said- there has just got to be another word for humans who have uteruses, vaginas and female parts from birth...it just can't be women.

I didn't want to use the term cis as it has negative connotations imo, and I didn't want the post to not be taken seriously because I am a "bigot"

Which to be fair, is another aspect to this whole thing e.g. cancel culture and people being afraid to express an opinion for fear of being piled on.

Is dead naming really a “thing”?

Gruffalux

Dave0301 wrote: »

I didn't want to use the term cis as it has negative connotations imo, and I didn't want the post to not be taken seriously because I am a "bigot"

Which to be fair, is another aspect to this whole thing e.g. cancel culture and people being afraid to express an opinion for fear of being piled on.

Cis is a horrid word. I will never use it to qualify woman. Thanks for avoiding it!
And don't worry about being thought a bigot - you are among the outcasts here

About cancel culture I read an article today at Quillette _ I had not heard this guy's story before. Basically he is arguing from the science perspective on sex and he attracted the wrong attention.

https://quillette.com/2020/07/30/think-cancel-culture-doesnt-exist-my-own-lived-experience-says-otherwise/

ingalway

Dave0301 wrote: »

It is baffling they can't see the hypocrisy in the pursuit of "equal" rights that results in the inequality on female athletes that have worked and train hard in their respective sports.

Putting aside all the other strands that make up the current debate around this topic. Transgender women that have gone through male puberty will have an inherent physical advantage, and that is inescapable.

It will be interesting to see what comes from the work that World Rugby are doing at the moment. It may be possible to take cases in the future on a case by case basis, but allowing it to happen without proper procedures in place will result in non transwomen being discriminated against, and in some sports, being exposed to a serious risk of injury.

The truth is they have no interest in 'equal' rights, that is just a smokescreen. Most of these people despise women; they are the biggest misogynists ever. They believe they are better than women and that is why equal rights will never be enough - not equal but better. There is no appeasement possible only complete control and domination of women’s sports and women’s rights.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm afraid that's just tough ****. Trans athletes don't fit into their preferred category by virtue of their biology so either be in a niche category or come to terms that you can't compete.

You're preaching to the choir here.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Dave0301 wrote: »

I didn't want to use the term cis as it has negative connotations imo, and I didn't want the post to not be taken seriously because I am a "bigot"

Which to be fair, is another aspect to this whole thing e.g. cancel culture and people being afraid to express an opinion for fear of being piled on.

Sure, look, I've been a called a bigot on here because of this very topic. I wouldn't say it doesn't bother me at all but I know I'm not a bigot so I take heart in that. Once you weather a few ugly epithets being slung at you, you realise it's not so bad because that tends to be all there is to the counterarguments. Certainly logic doesn't feature.

SoupMonster

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

What i found really galling was all the women saying how great it was for Jenner to win...But seriously imagine being a women from a poor background/suffered hardships etc, overcoming those and contributing to society for that piece of sh!t Jenner to win(before transitioning, Jenner killed a man while driving dangerously, but its transphobic to mention that)

Why hasn't the Olympic medal winning athlete Jenner competed in any ladies senior athletic competitions?
Have a guess.

SoupMonster

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Is dead naming really a “thing”?

Try searching Twitter for the word "deadnaming"

"Deadnaming a trans person you don't like is harmful to all trans people" is the first hit I got.

Gruffalux

Here is a demo from today of why the names of the female athletes who signed the letter should not have been released. They will be punished. Most of them are just young athletes, not famous like Martina, who has the confidence and wealth to brush off the bullying they will now get. This young lesbian is being made apologise publicly (by a male centric rights movement mostly) for not fancying the ''genitals of those assigned male at birth''.
I have not come across this Anna poster before so she may be some terrible person, but from a quick scroll down her page so far I like the cut of her stroppy jib.

https://twitter.com/YesThatAnna/status/1290275888085360641?s=20

statesaver

^^^
3rd wave feminists don't care about lesbian erasure, ' suck the lady dick, bigot '.

She should not apologise

Pedro K

Dante7 wrote: »

Some gymnastic events.

There are only two crossover pieces between men and women's artistic gymnastics (artistic gymnastics is the one with all the pieces, parallel bars, high bar, floor, vault, pommel horse, rings, etc). That's vault and floor, and the women's floor is completely different in terms of structure and scoring.

In the one piece where there is direct comparison, vault, women don't outperform men at all, and in floor, men are regularly busting out higher difficulty moves within the, albeit, different exercise.

I don't know about acrobatic gymnastics, or trampolining, however.

Quantum Erasure

SoupMonster wrote: »

Why hasn't the Olympic medal winning athlete Jenner competed in any ladies senior athletic competitions?
Have a guess.

Because she's retired? I dunno...

Quantum Erasure

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Because she's retired? I dunno...

She never competed.

Which begs the question....

Considering Kaitlyn Jenner only came into existence in 2015, is she a 70 year old woman with only 5 years of history acceptable to talk about considering her deadname., or is she a 5 year old girl?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

She never competed.

Which begs the question....

Considering Kaitlyn Jenner only came into existence in 2015, is she a 70 year old woman with only 5 years of history acceptable to talk about considering her deadname., or is she a 5 year old girl?

**** me but you do post some absolute ****.

iguana

Still waters wrote: »

Is there any sport where a woman would beat a man in, certainly not any of the mainstream Olympic sports

Possibly in certain ultra-endurance sports. In recent years as ultra-endurance events become more popular more and more women are setting the world records, often many hours faster than the fastest men to date. It could be an anomaly in a very niche sports field or it could be that as distances increase very significantly, women's biology becomes advantageous.

Hammer Archer

Still waters wrote: »

Is there any sport where a woman would beat a man in, certainly not any of the mainstream Olympic sports

Made this post last year:

Hammer Archer wrote: »

A quick look at the last Olympics.
In the 100m, out of 69 men who ran in round 1 of the heats, only 3 men ran slower than the winner of the women's 100m gold medal.
In the 200m, 75 men ran in the heats. Only 2 men (from the sprinting powerhouses of Benin and Papua New Guinea) ran slower than the women's gold medal winning time. And those two men who ran slower would have ran medal winning times in the women's race.
I could go on. I would wager that the trend would continue for all track and field sports. In every physically demanding sport, women would never make an impression if men and women competed together.

I'd be fairly left leaning in a lot of my views also, but transgender athletes competing alongside biological women in sports is a joke.

A further look at the track events that can be compared like for like, this trend continues. In the 400m, only 2 male athletes from Niger and South Sudan (who ran on the Refugee Olympic Team) ran slower than the women's gold medal winner. In the 800m, every single male athlete that competed in the heats ran faster than the women's gold medalist. And that gold medalist was Caster Semenya who, through no fault of her own, had very high levels of testosterone in her system.
In certain field events that can be compared (for the shot put, javelin, discuss and hammer throw, the item thrown is lighter in the women's event), it's the same story with most competing males outperforming the gold medalist in the women's sport.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

**** me but you do post some absolute ****.

Tad personal and abusive but your point is noted.

I was being purposely facetious. Apologies if I didn't include a smiley face

suicide_circus

If Caitlyn Jenner is and always has been a woman, should she be allowed to retain Olympic medals won in men's events?

Seems to me there's a contradiction that one person can hold men's sports accolades and Glamour Woman of the Year.

Gruffalux

iguana wrote: »

Possibly in certain ultra-endurance sports. In recent years as ultra-endurance events become more popular more and more women are setting the world records, often many hours faster than the fastest men to date. It could be an anomaly in a very niche sports field or it could be that as distances increase very significantly, women's biology becomes advantageous.

Fascinating.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Seems to me there's a contradiction that one person can hold men's sports accolades and Glamour Woman of the Year.

It is because of post structuralist quantum gender black holes. Simple.

( Is black hole okay to say anymore? Anyway I think it is time they came up with something a lot fancier to call a region of spacetime where gravity is so strong that nothing—no particles or even electromagnetic radiation such as light—can escape from it. )

suicide_circus

Gruffalox wrote: »

It is because of post structuralist quantum gender black holes. Simple.

( Is black hole okay to say anymore? Anyway I think it is time they came up with something a lot fancier to call a region of spacetime where gravity is so strong that nothing—no particles or even electromagnetic radiation such as light—can escape from it. )

Hole of colour