Tonights Boxing 3/3/18 (Wilder-Ortiz, Brook, Kovalev, Taylor etc)

megadodge

Morrison J wrote: »

I just don't see Kovalev as the killer he once was. The fear factor is gone and I'd actually label him as fragile. Bivol head hunted a lot against Barrera which would be a worry but I still think he'd get to Kovalev who doesn't have the gas tank to stay with a pressure fighter like him for 12. Obviously Kovalev has the power to hurt him at any point so I'm saying with with no real confidence but I'm favouring Bivol for sure.

I thought Kovalev looked very sloppy at the weekend. He doesn't have a trainer and he listens to nobody anyway. Apparently only sparring bang average fighters over in Russia to train. I think he's nearing the time to go to be honest and he can be food to someone coming through like Bivol. We'll see.

I think rumours of Kovalev's demise are exaggerated to put it mildly.

I thought Ward nicked the first fight, but it was very close and lots thought Kovalev won. I had Kovalev ahead at the time of the disgraceful stoppage in the second fight. Despite not exactly being a Kovalev admirer, I cannot believe the lack of sympathy he got for that example of typically biased American officiating.

And all of a sudden the narrative is he's a "bully" and "fragile" and "past it". Ward should at the very least have had points deducted and Kovalev been given time to recover. Maybe Ward would have taken over, but Ward is a great fighter and he had big, big problems coping with Kovalev.

I thought Kovalev was fine the last night. He dominated a tough, willing opponent and was never remotely troubled. He's still dangerous.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Bit outrageous saying Fury hasn't a prayer when he's literally streets ahead of Wilder technically in my opinion but hopefully we'll see. .

Only outrageous if Fury manages to avoid getting decimated.....

He will get decimated....

Morrison J

megadodge wrote: »

I think rumours of Kovalev's demise are exaggerated to put it mildly.

I thought Ward nicked the first fight, but it was very close and lots thought Kovalev won. I had Kovalev ahead at the time of the disgraceful stoppage in the second fight. Despite not exactly being a Kovalev admirer, I cannot believe the lack of sympathy he got for that example of typically biased American officiating.

And all of a sudden the narrative is he's a "bully" and "fragile" and "past it". Ward should at the very least have had points deducted and Kovalev been given time to recover. Maybe Ward would have taken over, but Ward is a great fighter and he had big, big problems coping with Kovalev.

I thought Kovalev was fine the last night. He dominated a tough, willing opponent and was never remotely troubled. He's still dangerous.

Thought he performed very well in the first fight but faded badly. Thought his performance was weird in the second fight. Don't think he liked the pace from the start. Kept complaining about phantom lowblows throughout the fight. Then when the genuine lowblows were actually thrown the ref wasn't convinced. I have some sympathy for him but not much to be honest. He was exposed in that fight to not be the hardman killer that was advertised.

I'd agree he was fine at the weekend but he hardly made a statement did he. Was like a glorified sparring session. He probably needs to be in with a name to be motivated. I just have a feeling we've seen the best of him. The aura he had around the time of the Pascal fights is gone anyway. He's shown he can be made uncomfortable and he's shown he can be hurt. That can't be disputed surely.

He's always going to be a tremendous boxer fundamentally but I think having concerns over his toughness is fair from what we've seen. He doesn't like it to the body, he doesn't like high pace, he doesn't like being roughed up in any form really.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Only outrageous if Fury manages to avoid getting decimated.....

He will get decimated....

We've no evidence to back up his potential to get decimated though. I've never seen so much hyperbole about two innocuous career knockdowns.

FTA69

Errah Walsh you're always giving out. Tyson is big, mobile, fast hands and technically better than Wikder by a country a mile.

I think Fury in shape and on form beats Wilder and Joshua to be honest.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

Fury hasn't a fooking prayer. I'm telling you.....I'll have to sticky this post, in the hope that Fury even gets close to his prime level for the fight to even happen. I'd be shocked if Fury had the balls to even take the fight.

Please do. Your love of big punchers has you blind to the many shortcomings Wilder has. Shortcomings, Fury, will punish.

If they do face each other, you will see that Wilder will be bewildered trying to figure out Fury as he switches stances, and as a consequence Wilder will be hitting fresh air all night and getting countered heavily. Fury wins comprehensively on points.

You'll never be able to admit that Fury is a classy boxer. A classy boxer will nine times out of 10 beat a crude puncher, which Wilder is.

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

Please do. Your love of big punchers has you blind to the many shortcomings Wilder has. Shortcomings, Fury, will punish.

If they do face each other, you will see that Wilder will be bewildered trying to figure out Fury as he switches stances, and as a consequence Wilder will be hitting fresh air all night and getting countered heavily. Fury wins comprehensively on points.

You'll never be able to admit that Fury is a classy boxer. A classy boxer will nine times out of 10 beat a crude puncher, which Wilder is.

That’s just it. I never said Wilder was a great boxer...

Plus, nothing to do with love of big punchers..

Wilder punches big. Fury will get hit clean and knocked out.

He will not be around to expose Wilder’s shortcomings. That’s the problem for Fury...

Fury is quite a neat boxer for a big man, but jeez he gets terribly overrated..

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

We've no evidence to back up his potential to get decimated though. I've never seen so much hyperbole about two innocuous career knockdowns.

He was knocked down and hurt several times during his career by far less dangerous hitters. That is some sort of evidence. To discount this as nothing, when matching him with a massive hitter like Wilder, who has height and reach to actually get to Tyson's chin cleanly, is a bit naive.

Fury could surprise me and take a clean shot, or shots and win via points. I just think it's highly unlikely. I believe him to be a KO waiting to happen.

Tyson with a grade A chin outboxes Wilder. I am with this........

Kind of separate point:

Not with the narrative being spouted about dancing rings around him. Wilder is crude, awkward and far from polished, but it's that crudeness and awkwardness that makes him a very difficult puzzle to solve. And with his height and range it makes it more difficult. And the power he has at any moment will always see Fury being careful, cautious and not all that eager to open up and commit. So, taking all this obvious stuff into account I don't see how any half knowledgeable fight fan could see an easy points win...And I don't mean just scores on the cards. I am talking about the actual ring action, the fight.

This talk of an easy win for Fury is utter nonsense....

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Errah Walsh you're always giving out. Tyson is big, mobile, fast hands and technically better than Wikder by a country a mile.

I think Fury in shape and on form beats Wilder and Joshua to be honest.

Giving out?

Ok, I'll stop......

Fury beats both AJ and Wilder.......

I think their fighting each other is a little unlikely. May get one fight from the combination, but 3 fights.....?

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

He was knocked down and hurt several times during his career by far less dangerous hitters. That is some sort of evidence. To discount this as nothing, when matching him with a massive hitter like Wilder, who has height and reach to actually get to Tyson's chin cleanly, is a bit naive.

Fury could surprise me and take a clean shot, or shots and win via points. I just think it's highly unlikely. I believe him to be a KO waiting to happen.

Tyson with a grade A chin outboxes Wilder. I am with this........

Kind of separate point:

Not with the narrative being spouted about dancing rings around him. Wilder is crude, awkward and far from polished, but it's that crudeness and awkwardness that makes him a very difficult puzzle to solve. And with his height and range it makes it more difficult. And the power he has at any moment will always see Fury being careful, cautious and not all that eager to open up and commit. So, taking all this obvious stuff into account I don't see how any half knowledgeable fight fan could see an easy points win...And I don't mean just scores on the cards. I am talking about the actual ring action, the fight.

This talk of an easy win for Fury is utter nonsense....

I'm not even entertaining the amount of weight to your argument you put behind an innocuous knockdown by Steve Cunningham. Any heavy gets put down by a perfect shot they don't see coming. Fury switched off and was made pay, it happens. He got up and was fine.

Fury has never been on the verge of getting stopped in his career. He's shown no genuine signs of being chinny. That's the important fact. Is it granite? Probably not but I don't think any of the elite heavies have granite chins, Wilder's is by far the easiest to find though which is a point you might be overlooking.

I've never said its an easy fight for Fury. If he gets caught (and if he switches off for a second he might) he could be in bother. I think he'll win clear though. You are the one who has categorically stated he won't avoid going home in a stretcher. Now that's nonsense..

There's a lot more to boxing than chins and power.

walshb

Steve Cunningham is only one example..

Yes, there is a lot more to boxing than chins and power, but without a chin you may not get to show it...

Against Wilder, Fury won’t show it, because he gets knocked out..

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Steve Cunningham is only one example..

Yes, there is a lot more to boxing than chins and power, but without a chin you may not get to show it...

Against Wilder, Fury won’t show it, because he gets knocked out..

He's only been down twice and they were basically carbon copy overhand rights..

You can also have all the power in the world but if your opponent is too skilled you won't get to show it. Works both ways.

I just don't know how you can say it with such confidence. You're speaking about a lot of relative unknowns with certainty. Wilder can knock anyone out but he's gone the distance with Stiverne and gone into the latter rounds with Ortiz, Szpilka, Duhaupas and Molina. To rule out any chance of Fury going the distance is a bit outrageous and of course you think 6'9 Fury is completely feather fisted so the chances of him KO'ing a Wilder with his chin in the air is out of the question too. Your dislike of Fury definitely clouding your judgement somewhat I think.

selectamatic

Fury was definitely a tad wobbly after the pajkic knock down however with pajkic being only 6ft3" and also not very good, fury was able to grab on, clinch and then lean his way to the bell for the end of the 2nd.

It is a much harder survival task should he take a big shot and go down from either AJ or wilder. Both are proper big men and they're both strong enough to stuff desperate clinches.

This imo is fury's biggest hurdle to overcome when facing either of them.

Edit: just another quick point, he's never been down when fatigue could be an issue. Both knock downs were very early in the fights. Now this proves precisely nothing, but it's an interesting point all the same.

Morrison J

selectamatic wrote: »

Fury was definitely a tad wobbly after the pajkic knock down however with pajkic being only 6ft3" and also not very good, fury was able to grab on, clinch and then lean his way to the bell for the end of the 2nd.

It is a much harder survival task should he take a big shot and go down from either AJ or wilder. Both are proper big men and they're both strong enough to stuff desperate clinches.

This imo is fury's biggest hurdle to overcome when facing either of them.

I thought his legs were fully under him to be honest. He got caught again at the bell but the previous thirty seconds or so he was back on the jab looking comfortable. Pajkic was trying his best to rough him up but Fury dealt with it well I thought. He has tremendous recuperative powers. Never looks hurt for prolonged periods. Very like Larry Holmes in that respect.

selectamatic

Morrison J wrote: »

I thought his legs were fully under him to be honest. He got caught again at the bell but the previous thirty seconds or so he was back on the jab looking comfortable. Pajkic was trying his best to rough him up but Fury dealt with it well I thought. He has tremendous recuperative powers. Never looks hurt for prolonged periods. Very like Larry Holmes in that respect.

They were but only after a good clinch and a spell of leaning in the corner. Wasn't he caught again with a decent-ish shot at the start of the 3rd where he looked a bit cumbersome but pajkic faded fast thereafter and fury piled on the pressure to get stoppage.

That said, ay he has solid recouperative powers for sure but there's still been that 10-20 seconds of a window like there is with most where he's not 100%.

This is where his clinch work and size has come up trumps. If both of these are nullified it makes things a tad more interesting.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

He's only been down twice and they were basically carbon copy overhand rights..

You can also have all the power in the world but if your opponent is too skilled you won't get to show it. Works both ways.

Yes, and you need to factor in the few incidents that he was badly wobbled as well. Also, look at the men who did it to him and then ask yourself what happens if a far heavier hitters (who are also bigger men) like Wilder or AJ lands?

This too skilled lark for Fury....this stinks of overrating......He has been hit plenty and is far from a defensive skilled genius.....

AJ and Wilder will find his chin....

Urindanger

I pop into this forum once every now and again and it seems ye lads are always having the same conversation about the Heavyweights. I admire yer persistence but surely to be God you're losing your sanity trying to convince the other fella

walshb

Well, AJ is a warm enough favorite with the bookies vs. Fury....deservedly so

Not sure what odds the bookies would give on Wilder vs. Fury, but it would hardly be a surprise to see Wilder a favorite?

Henno30

Think Fury's performance against Wlad has been hugely overrated. How a counterpuncher looks against another counterpuncher is very different to how they look against an aggressive fighter. No top heavyweight will be as incapable of pulling the trigger as Wlad was that night.

Fury is a good boxer but he's not Ali ffs. Most of his success has been due to much smaller men having to cope with his reach advantage. Whether AJ/Wilder can beat him is hard to tell because they haven't exactly faced murderer's row either. But this characterisation of Fury as a master-boxer doesn't add up for me. A master-boxer might have hit Wlad more than six times.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Well, AJ is a warm enough favorite with the bookies vs. Fury....deservedly so

Not sure what odds the bookies would give on Wilder vs. Fury, but it would hardly be a surprise to see Wilder a favorite?

Joshua is a wider favourite against Wilder than he is Fury so I'd guess the bookies make Fury close favourite against Wilder.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Joshua is a wider favourite against Wilder than he is Fury so I'd guess the bookies make Fury close favourite against Wilder.

I searched around and cannot get any odds.....

Not sure your a/b/c thought process is valid here.....

Could turn out that the bookies see Wilder as a more dangerous (and awkward/unpredictable) punching threat to Fury than they see Joshua to Fury...

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

I searched around and cannot get any odds.....

Not sure your a/b/c thought process is valid here.....

Could turn out that the bookies see Wilder as a more dangerous (and awkward/unpredictable) punching threat to Fury than they see Joshua to Fury...

Maybe so but I wouldn't read too much into bookies odds anyway. Most traders who set odds for boxing have boxing 2nd or 3rd on their list of priorities behind other sports. They don't specify in boxing. Might set odds for rugby and do boxing odds on the side for example. They're no experts (See the Groves -Eubank odds for example).

Morrison J

Henno30 wrote: »

No top heavyweight will be as incapable of pulling the trigger as Wlad was that night.

Which may well play into Fury's hands further. Anyone coming in reckless against Fury is likely to miss and get countered hard. That's what I think is a likely outcome against Wilder.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Which may well play into Fury's hands further. Anyone coming in reckless against Fury is likely to miss and get countered hard. That's what I think is a likely outcome against Wilder.

Well, that could be true, and if I am wrong about Fury's power, then he could score a countering KO.

I do think that you overrate his all around rings skills.....

He has fought nobody like an AJ or Wilder...

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Well, that could be true, and if I am wrong about Fury's power, then he could score a countering KO.

I do think that you overrate his all around rings skills.....

He has fought nobody like an AJ or Wilder...

And neither AJ or Wilder have fought anyone like Fury.

I favour Fury over both but I've never categorically said he can't lose. He'll have to be at his best to do it for sure. I don't agree that I overrate him. He's not the perfect heavyweight by any means but Joshua and Wilder are far from perfect heavyweights themselves.

I think you have a personal dislike for the guy just like you do Saunders which clouds your judgment somewhat. Probably the two best pure boxers in the UK.

walshb

A dislike does not come into it..

I pick Fury to beat any HW on earth not named AJ or Wilder..

I have said plenty of times through the years that he is quite a good boxer.

SHOVELLER

Stuck with Showtime and it was an enjoyable couple of bouts. The prefight worry about Uzcategui's urine went with the unpredictability of these two bouts.

The fight on reflection was predictable as Uzcategui was all over him and Dirrell's body language was very telling. It just looked like one fight too many and his earlier thoughts on retirement had to have an effect as the younger man emphatically won. What I found incredible was at the end of the third is that they had no water for Dirrell! Virgil Hunter repeatedly screaming for water summed the whole match really.

Wilder's over confidence almost cost him as the beating he took in the seventh was savage but he did the right thing holding but still scratching my head why the ref gave Wilder more time at the start of the eighth. Ortiz was a worth opponent in an absorbing bout but big question marks over Wilder. Unleashing bombs and being very anxious while looking for the ko almost cost him dearly. To be fair he showed some balls to come back but I cant see Joshua losing to him.

But great to see the heavyweights back in the sun.

Henno30

SHOVELLER wrote: »

Stuck with Showtime and it was an enjoyable couple of bouts. The prefight worry about Uzcategui's urine went with the unpredictability of these two bouts.

The fight on reflection was predictable as Uzcategui was all over him and Dirrell's body language was very telling. It just looked like one fight too many and his earlier thoughts on retirement had to have an effect as the younger man emphatically won. What I found incredible was at the end of the third is that they had no water for Dirrell! Virgil Hunter repeatedly screaming for water summed the whole match really.

Wilder's over confidence almost cost him as the beating he took in the seventh was savage but he did the right thing holding but still scratching my head why the ref gave Wilder more time at the start of the eighth. Ortiz was a worth opponent in an absorbing bout but big question marks over Wilder. Unleashing bombs and being very anxious while looking for the ko almost cost him dearly. To be fair he showed some balls to come back but I cant see Joshua losing to him.

But great to see the heavyweights back in the sun.

It was a very composed performance from Wilder early on though. Didn't jump at the many false openings Ortiz was showing him. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any middle ground where he can be effective.

He is either cautious or in full on windmill mode. He doesn't seem to be able to win rounds at a mid-level intensity by picking shots here and there.