Irish rail fleet

Ireland trains

I was wondering if irish rail still had the 8200 class DARTs and how much mkiv coaches do irish rail have

Seanmk1

The 8200s are still stored outdoors in Inchicore, they couldn't be sold.

There are 67 Mark 4 carriages of various types, including the driving trailers.

Ireland trains

So could irish Irish rail ever bring the class 8200 darts back into service and do irish rail have some spare mkiv coaches so is it possible they could lenghten some of the sets.

L1011

The 8200s would need a full, expensive refurb to be considered - the previous attempt to resuscitate them was a failure

donvito99

Slightly related to the above, given that there are mutterings of more 22000 non-driving cars to be ordered, could this same principle be employed in the case of the 8100 EMUs?

i.e. adding an additional unpowered car to the 2 car units, making them three car. Formations would then be 3-3-2 only using 3 as opposed to the present 4 units. The idea being to relatively cheaply free up EMUs for an expanded DART service. Whether or not its worth it given that the 8100s, despite the refurb, are an old design is another question. There would also be issues of finding a manufacturer capable of accommodating the existing units with their products given that the order would most likely be ~30 cars and not warranting any clean sheet design (other than it being broad gauge).

end of the road

donvito99 wrote: »

Slightly related to the above, given that there are mutterings of more 22000 non-driving cars to be ordered, could this same principle be employed in the case of the 8100 EMUs?

i.e. adding an additional unpowered car to the 2 car units, making them three car. Formations would then be 3-3-2 only using 3 as opposed to the present 4 units. The idea being to relatively cheaply free up EMUs for an expanded DART service. Whether or not its worth it given that the 8100s, despite the refurb, are an old design is another question. There would also be issues of finding a manufacturer capable of accommodating the existing units with their products given that the order would most likely be ~30 cars and not warranting any clean sheet design (other than it being broad gauge).

mechanically it likely could be done but realistically there would be no point. the cost in building carriges with full compatibility with such an old unit which will probably be retired in the next 10 years, verses the benefit of 3 and 6 car operation which is less flexible then the current 8100 operation which allows 2 4 6 or 8 car, wouldn't stack up.

Jamie2k9

From a cost prospective it wouldn't work and given they are old adding a coach may not be as straight forwards as the 22000 class.

They just need to order a fleet of EMU/Bi Mode for Connolly and remove all ICRs from PPT, Maynooth, M3, N Commuter service and leave them on Sligo/Rosslare however depending on the spec they could possibly even make a case for running them to Rosslare if they get the design right or order a sub fleet with a more intercity feel spec.

tabbey

donvito99 wrote: »

in the case of the 8100 EMUs?
adding an additional unpowered car to the 2 car units, making them three car.

Such a set would be underpowered, having the weight of 3 cars, but only the power for 2.

The 81/8300 class EMUs will probably continue for another 10 or 15 years, there would be no point building additional intermediate cars for this short period.

Most importantly, the 81/83 class are the most useful and successful trains on Irish Rail, please do not even think of £"cking them up!

Ireland trains

Could irish rail order the 22000 coaches as an electric car as proposed to do with the voyager trains in the UK.
Also irish rail only need 6 mkiv sets to operate the dublin-cork line (2.5h journey and 30 min turnaround.
They could relocate one set on 17:05 dub-Tralee which would free up 1 5 car ICR
When the bi mode trains come, is it possible irish rail will relocate the 29000 to cork commuter

end of the road

Ireland trains wrote: »

Could irish rail order the 22000 coaches as an electric car as proposed to do with the voyager trains in the UK.

the proposal to build electric cars for the voyagers was dropped quite a long time ago. project thor it was called. it was dropped i believe due to cost, because the voyager design had stopped being built at that stage.
irish rail could probably build any new intermediats for the ICRS as electric but they would likely need to order now as that design won't last forever. could it even be justified on cost grounds now i don't know.

Ireland trains wrote: »

Also irish rail only need 6 mkiv sets to operate the dublin-cork line (2.5h journey and 30 min turnaround.
They could relocate one set on 17:05 dub-Tralee which would free up 1 5 car ICR

i think the 7th set is usually under maintenence along with the spare, but someone should correct me.

Ireland trains wrote: »

When the bi mode trains come, is it possible irish rail will relocate the 29000 to cork commuter

it's not possible as the bi-modes seem to be for the needed extra capacity to suplament the 2900s rather then replacement of them. the amount of bi-modes ordered likely won't be enough. also, the 2600s will last a very long time and are more flexible in terms of matching capacity to demand as they are a 2 car, compared to a 2900 which is 4. i'd imagine once the 2600s do retire, either the 27 or 2800s will step in until they retire. cork is unlikely to ever require all 2900 sets and it is better to keep a fleet together if possible. the 2900s will likely live out their days in the dublin area.

Jamie2k9

Ireland trains wrote: »

Could irish rail order the 22000 coaches as an electric car as proposed to do with the voyager trains in the UK.
Also irish rail only need 6 mkiv sets to operate the dublin-cork line (2.5h journey and 30 min turnaround.
They could relocate one set on 17:05 dub-Tralee which would free up 1 5 car ICR
When the bi mode trains come, is it possible irish rail will relocate the 29000 to cork commuter

Its near impossible to make such a conversion, you more less have to rewire the full train and it would be easier to get new ones!

i think the 7th set is usually under maintenence along with the spare, but someone should correct me

Correct they usually only use a maximum of 5 sets.

They could relocate one set on 17:05 dub-Tralee

I do think the Tralee direct services should be a Mark IV operated. If I am totally honest the 15.30 to Limerick should be cancelled and operate after the 18.00 to Cork and have a more efficient service during the 17 and 18.00 hour.

Ireland trains

But most of the 29000 trains won't be needed because the DART will have expanded to there (not bi mode). They will only need some really for services to Dundalk and maby ppt and possibly arklow.
What's the point of keeping any spare trains.
It's better to have an extra service 29/31 days in a month and have no train because it failed 2/31 days of the month instead of having a train that is only used 2 times a month.
When the journey time from Heuston to Cork is 2h they will only need 5 mkiv and if they wanted they could use the other 2 to increase the enterprise service.

Ireland trains

When IE go to order the bi mode trains they should order some in an intercity interior because on the Dublin to Belfast line 47/171km will be electric.

end of the road

Ireland trains wrote: »

But most of the 29000 trains won't be needed because the DART will have expanded to there (not bi mode). They will only need some really for services to Dundalk and maby ppt and possibly arklow.
What's the point of keeping any spare trains.
It's better to have an extra service 29/31 days in a month and have no train because it failed 2/31 days of the month instead of having a train that is only used 2 times a month.
When the journey time from Heuston to Cork is 2h they will only need 5 mkiv and if they wanted they could use the other 2 to increase the enterprise service.

i would be very surprised dispite the government's plans if we see electrification before the 2900s retire. if otherwise and electrification does happen then possibly they will go to kildare/newbridge local services as well as dundalk, or maybe just to kildare line local services with increased frequencies.

Ireland trains

end of the road wrote: »

i would be very surprised dispite the government's plans if we see electrification before the 2900s retire. if otherwise and electrification does happen then possibly they will go to kildare/newbridge local services as well as dundalk, or maybe just to kildare line local services with increased frequencies.

They are too slow for Kildare line timing
Irish rail need to just get the work started before the governments can cancel it

tabbey

Ireland trains wrote: »

When the bi mode trains come, is it possible irish rail will relocate the 29000 to cork commuter

It will be many years before electrification reaches Maynooth and Drogheda.
During that period passenger numbers will increase, so more commuter diesel trains will be needed, not less.
If Drogheda is electrified first, with or without bi-modes, the Maynooth line will still need 2900s. Even then Mullingar / Longford services and Gorey will still need commuter diesel trains.

As for bi-mode mainline trains, we are talking decades, if ever.

end of the road

Ireland trains wrote: »

They are too slow for Kildare line timing

in my experience of those local services, which is limited admittidly, i think a 2900 would be perfectly fine for kildare timings, especially once the krp is finished as it should be. it's after kildare to portlaoise that does manage the higher speed in my experience, and that is the snag. the ICR also struggles with the loading and quick stop starts.
i believe 2900s even used to operate those services from time to time before the ICRS came and maintenence was moved down to portlaoise, so i don't think it's an issue in terms of kildare and newbridge only services.

Ireland trains wrote: »

Irish rail need to just get the work started before the governments can cancel it

i'd agree, but the problem is they can't start the work until the funding is granted.

Ireland trains

Irish rail should quadruple the line from Hazelhatch to Kildare and have the DART running to Kildare.
I think irish rail need more commuter services to further destinations such as Arklow/Gorey, more to Dundalk, Mullingar, Thurles Thurles and Carlow.
I hope the new fleet look different to the trains in Ireland today.
Is it possible irish rail will ever operate some icrs in 8 car formation.
Does anyone think Irish rail will lengthen some of the mkiv fleet to 9 car (Inc dtv) using the 3 spare coaches

Jamie2k9

2900 would be fine for PPT services to Newbridge, there would possibly be some issues going south of Kildare because of line speed verses 2900 but scheduling could address it for the most part. Anyway chances are of them operating as far as Portlaoise are low.

Is it possible irish rail will ever operate some icrs in 8 car formation.
Does anyone think Irish rail will lengthen some of the mkiv fleet to 9 car (Inc dtv) using the 3 spare coaches

Both are possible but would require works.

end of the road

Ireland trains wrote: »

Is it possible irish rail will ever operate some icrs in 8 car formation.

i'd doubt it. while it's possible to operate 8 cars most platforms cannot take such a consist and would require lengthening. only a few platforms can take 8 or 9 cars.

Ireland trains wrote: »

Does anyone think Irish rail will lengthen some of the mkiv fleet to 9 car (Inc dtv) using the 3 spare coaches

again i'd doubt it. while it's also possible to lengthen the sets, the 3 spare coaches are spare vehicles and the principal platforms on the cork line i think can only take the current consists and would require lengthening.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

in my experience of those local services, which is limited admittidly, i think a 2900 would be perfectly fine for kildare timings, especially once the krp is finished as it should be. it's after kildare to portlaoise that does manage the higher speed in my experience, and that is the snag. the ICR also struggles with the loading and quick stop starts.
i believe 2900s even used to operate those services from time to time before the ICRS came and maintenence was moved down to portlaoise, so i don't think it's an issue in terms of kildare and newbridge only services.



i'd agree, but the problem is they can't start the work until the funding is granted.

29000s were used on Heuston -Newbridge/Kildare before the ICRs took overs. Timings were similar. The 29000 only loose out between Hazelhatch/Sallins and Sallins/Newbridge in terms of max speed 70 vs 100mph but the difference is small. While the ICR do reach 90+mph, it's only for a short time before braking for the next station begins. I fact, the 29000 may perform better between closer stations - Parkwest - Clondalkin.
29000 -Heuston-Kildare 45mins - all stations
ICR 44 mins.

Ireland trains

Would it be possible for irish rail to install seats in the MKIV DTV like the in the enterprise

L1011

Ireland trains wrote: »

Would it be possible for irish rail to install seats in the MKIV DTV like the in the enterprise

No, there's a generator in the way