protect your app

studdlymurphy

So if you had an idea for an app but cant make one i.e. i need to get an app developer to build it for me.
How can i be sure my idea will be mine at the end and not copied or stolen?
Also where to get tge app developed?
Has anybody gone down this road?
Thanks.

bren2002

It's doubtful any app developer would be interested in stealing it, and as soon as you launch its public knowledge anyway.

If you want it developed locally in Ireland, you'll probably need 250K for the first version. But obviously that depends hugely on the complexity.

Offshore development is cheaper but brings its own problems.

studdlymurphy

bren2002 wrote:

It's doubtful any app developer would be interested in stealing it, and as soon as you launch its public knowledge anyway.

Thank you. Fair point on it being public after launch

lastusername

bren2002 wrote: »

It's doubtful any app developer would be interested in stealing it, and as soon as you launch its public knowledge anyway.

If you want it developed locally in Ireland, you'll probably need 250K for the first version. But obviously that depends hugely on the complexity.

Offshore development is cheaper but brings its own problems.

Presume you mean 25k!!

Axwell

bren2002 wrote: »

I
If you want it developed locally in Ireland, you'll probably need 250K for the first version. But obviously that depends hugely on the complexity.

Where did you pull that figure from, apart from thin air? With no clue what the app is or what platform its being developed for. Even the 25k being mentioned is just a throw away figure without any info.

Axwell

studdlymurphy wrote: »

So if you had an idea for an app but cant make one i.e. i need to get an app developer to build it for me.
How can i be sure my idea will be mine at the end and not copied or stolen?
Also where to get tge app developed?
Has anybody gone down this road?
Thanks.

You can get an NDA signed if you wish by the developer and have a contract to make sure you get all the source code and own the developer accounts the app is published under but the developer is not really going to be your problem. With app development you can be pretty sure a) something exists already very like yours on the app stores or b) someone is going to copy your idea and make a similar app if it becomes anyways popular.

bren2002

lastusername wrote: »

Presume you mean 25k!!

No I don't. You could get something started for 25K but nothing complicated.

Let's assume something reasonably sophisticated, it it's a new concept let's assume again that means connected

25,000 in concept development, business analysis and specification writing.
50,000 android app
50,000 iPhone app
25,000 website.
10,000 p/a aws infrastructure etc.
10,000 testing
10,000 legal
20,000 contingency

All before you've paid for software licences, marketing, customer support or any other staff. And then you need to start on version 2.0

lastusername

bren2002 wrote: »

No I don't. You could get something started for 25K but nothing complicated.

Let's assume something reasonably sophisticated, it it's a new concept let's assume again that means connected

25,000 in concept development, business analysis and specification writing.
50,000 android app
50,000 iPhone app
25,000 website.
10,000 p/a aws infrastructure etc.
10,000 testing
10,000 legal
20,000 contingency

All before you've paid for software licences, marketing, customer support or any other staff. And then you need to start on version 2.0

You're kidding, right...?!?! Otherwise these are all just made up figures with no basis in reality whatsoever...! Well, unless you like paying massively over the odds for no good reason :P

bren2002

Feel free to post your own estimates, but I believe these are realistic for a professional business.

It takes a huge amount of expertise to do this, designers, ux/ui, dba, coder. None of those people are cheap.

You can do it for an awful lot less, but we have no details so I've assumed a reasonably complex requirement.

Tenigate

bren2002 wrote: »

You can do it for an awful lot less, but we have no details so I've assumed a reasonably complex requirement.

No offence but I'd agree with other posters. You're plucking numbers out of the air.

Wildcard7

I'm sorry but without any idea how complex the app would be, any figure is just guesswork. It's extremly redundant and unprofessional to even throw a figure out there without knowing what the app would be like. It's not a loaf of bread. There are apps that an experienced developer could make you for a couple hundred quid, and there are apps that 250k are not enough for. How long is a piece of string? Anyone who claims to have the answer to that question is a charlatan.

Axwell

bren2002 wrote: »

No I don't. You could get something started for 25K but nothing complicated.

Let's assume something reasonably sophisticated, it it's a new concept let's assume again that means connected

25,000 in concept development, business analysis and specification writing.
50,000 android app
50,000 iPhone app
25,000 website.
10,000 p/a aws infrastructure etc.
10,000 testing
10,000 legal
20,000 contingency

All before you've paid for software licences, marketing, customer support or any other staff. And then you need to start on version 2.0

Again you are just pulling numbers out of the air..you have no idea of the project and whats involved. Even based on your 'reasonably sophisticated' app and pricing what you consider reasonably sophisticated may not be to developers when given a full spec of whats required. You are literally just making up hypothetical numbers for a hypothetical project...

bren2002

I agree my estimates are based on nothing but assumption as to complexity, but a lot are missing my underlying point. It takes a lot if people and expertise to deliver an app and business. Given more details I'm happy to revise estimates.

Tell me how

bren2002 wrote: »

I agree my estimates are based on nothing but assumption as to complexity, but a lot are missing my underlying point. It takes a lot if people and expertise to deliver an app and business. Given more details I'm happy to revise estimates.

I understood the OP's question was specifically about an app. When you start introducing business costs, then it is even more random and hard to predict.

Graham

bren2002 wrote: »

It takes a huge amount of expertise to do this, designers, ux/ui, dba, coder. None of those people are cheap.

Or it takes 1 person to do it, as would probably be the case for for the majority of apps on the assorted app stores.

studdlymurphy

Graham wrote:

Or it takes 1 person to do it, as would probably be the case for for the majority of apps on the assorted app stores.

Where would be a good place to get somebody to complete this work?
Thank you

Having built an exceptionally complex app across iOS, Android and Web including server costs and various other things I spent around 120K. That was 3 people handling their own area iOS, android , database+web.

The amount you spend on construction relates to the amount of features in it, each features takes time and money. If theres not that many features your costs should be a fraction of what I spent which had endless features and required work and took over a year of full time work.

The best value for money is in Eastern Europe, where they have top programmers working at very cheap prices. Theres dozens of companies doing this easily found on quoting sites or linkedin. Greece is the next step up from that cost wise where I built mine. Their skills will match any western developers but if you are on the other side of the continent you will meet management problems and other difficulties, so it is a trade off. But the reality is a good irish programmer is too expensive to build an app from scratch. Programmers are making 500 a month in the likes of belarus and 5000 a month in Ireland at the same skill level.

Digital_Guy

Deleted User wrote: »

Having built an exceptionally complex app across iOS, Android and Web including server costs and various other things I spent around 120K. That was 3 people handling their own area iOS, android , database+web.

The amount you spend on construction relates to the amount of features in it, each features takes time and money. If theres not that many features your costs should be a fraction of what I spent which had endless features and required work and took over a year of full time work.

The best value for money is in Eastern Europe, where they have top programmers working at very cheap prices. Theres dozens of companies doing this easily found on quoting sites or linkedin. Greece is the next step up from that cost wise where I built mine. Their skills will match any western developers but if you are on the other side of the continent you will meet management problems and other difficulties, so it is a trade off. But the reality is a good irish programmer is too expensive to build an app from scratch. Programmers are making 500 a month in the likes of belarus and 5000 a month in Ireland at the same skill level.

I think it's a trade off that can work really well if you find the right team or developer. I would have lots of ideas myself but you're not going to take a punt on idea that might take 25k to develop (even if you have the funds).

Might PM you for some recommendations El Rifle

Graham

studdlymurphy wrote: »

Where would be a good place to get somebody to complete this work?
Thank you

Here's the biggest hint I can give you:

You're not going to get any really meaningful advice unless you share more information.

If you're attempting to build an app on a €500 budget you need to be looking at app builders or learning to code. If you're planning to clone Uber you're going to need a team of people and another zero or two onto bren2002's estimate €250k estimate.

In short, put more effort into your question if you're hoping to get meaningful answers.

ironclaw

OP, I'll chime in here as I rode the App wave back in the mid 2000's both personally and in industry. You should be aware that the trend is away from Apps in business and towards centralised applications, basically, an App that works on everything, usually based on a web technology (See 'Cordova' as an example). It makes moving an App between devices very easy, for example, you develop one 'App' but it works on iOS and Android, massively decreasing your costs. Your developers are also cheaper as they basically work in standard, off the shelf web technologies.

The exact way you make an App varies on what the App is, but unless is a very complex app or requires the hardware of the phone to make it work e.g. Games, then I'd wager you can get a quick proof of concept built for very little.

How can i be sure my idea will be mine at the end and not copied or stolen?

I'd worry about getting the App validated first. And I mean, talking to someone who could build it so they can give you an idea of the complexity. You may have a great idea but it's likely already been done, or hasn't be done, for good measure. If it hasn't and you are on to something, get a basic version built and test it out. You can always add features at a later date. Word of warning, however, unless you go absolutely viral, you'll make very little money on the App store alone. The real money is in subscription services or B2C applications.

I'd be happy to talk about this with you if you wished.

Also where to get tge app developed?

Know anyone in college? Seriously. Grab a few students who code and get them to build you a demo. Something that works and something you can pitch to people. Better yet, get an artist or someone that can draw. Get them to draw the 'screens' of your app and how it would work, then go talk to some programmers. A huge disconnect in industry is how creatives and dev's think, you need your ideas to align, so the more 'real' you can make it before you write code, the better.

Has anybody gone down this road?

Many times. And if I can give you some final advice, map it out before you do. I've met plenty of people who were on to the 'next uber' or 'this is better than snapchat' only to stumble, or keep trying something that wasn't working. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses and validate early. Get feedback and share your idea with people who can give an unbiased, technical answer. Anyone worth asking this question to won't steal your idea because they'll either be a) Too busy to care or b) they'll probably build it for you to cash in on the concept.

Good luck.

Buttercake

bren2002 wrote: »

25,000 website.

:pac:

Buttercake

If its going to be the next tinder or snapchat then you'll should approach EI, they wont steal your idea and get it accelerated and working properly before launch but even still there can be dozens of clones created..quickly.. its to be expected. Remember flappy bird? there were 25+ clones created in the first week, even if they dont clone everything, they may well clone a lot oif its function and good luck challenging an app developer in Asia with some legal "we will come after you" language - its first to market who wins no matter where you are.

There are websites like flippa or codecanyon where you can buy a barebones to working app.. they might givee you a high % of what you want your app to do.

Hire a dev offshore to customise it for you and huzzah! theres your bootstrap app, get it to MVP and get validation if its a viable product or just a bar stool brainfart.

Raging_Ninja

First to market is overrated - Bebo and MySpace were around a good while before Facebook showed up for instance. Similar story for YouTube - there were other video sharing sites around first but who remembers what they were? Blockbuster alongside Enron started a movie streaming site back in 2000 and look at them now.

What matters is execution - what can you offer the potential customers that the competition doesn't. If you can figure that out, you got something that can grow legs.

jacksn

bren2002 wrote: »

25,000 in concept development, business analysis and specification writing.
50,000 android app
50,000 iPhone app
25,000 website.
10,000 p/a aws infrastructure etc.
10,000 testing
10,000 legal
20,000 contingency

All before you've paid for software licences, marketing, customer support or any other staff. And then you need to start on version 2.0

This ^ is what's wrong with this country and why the next Google, Apple Facebook, Intel or Microsoft will never be created here.

I have an idea > Ok it will cost you thousands = Goodbye Idea.

This craic of "We can charge thousands because we are Irish" offers no guarantees or quality of work over someone offshore and stifles any creativity, optimism or entrepreneurism.

Why does someone here have to earn €5,000 a month when someone in Europe can do a better job for €500?

Raging_Ninja

jacksn wrote: »

This ^ is what's wrong with this country and why the next Google, Apple Facebook, Intel or Microsoft will never be created here.

I have an idea > Ok it will cost you thousands = Goodbye Idea.

This craic of "We can charge thousands because we are Irish" offers no guarantees or quality of work over someone offshore and stifles any creativity, optimism or entrepreneurism.

Why does someone here have to earn €5,000 a month when someone in Europe can do a better job for €500?

Those numbers are made up twaddle though. The amount you need to spend depends entirely on what you are trying to develop - it could be a fraction of the figures given, or it could be many multiples.

And don't cry about having to spend more money for technical staff - this is a market economy and nobody works for free. You want to cut costs, you're more then you are free to go elsewhere, but don't expect talent to take you on as a charity case when there are others willing to pay them. If you want to see really eye-watering amounts of money software engineers can earn, go to the US and see the rates Google, Apple, Intel, Microsoft and Facebook pay.

Not to mention the horror stories that often come from outsourcing software development...

jacksn

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Not to mention the horror stories that often come from outsourcing software development...

The same horror stories happen anywhere, local or offshore. Based in Ireland is no guarantee of coding quality.

Raging_Ninja

jacksn wrote: »

The same horror stories happen anywhere, local or offshore. Based in Ireland is no guarantee of coding quality.

Oh yeah I've seen with my own two eyes how badly outsourcing can get. You have to remember that the goals of most outsourcing firms is revenue maximization, not quality. However keeping it in-house allows you to maximize oversight of the project.

But the idea that people in Ireland should be happy to receive the same pay as somebody in India or eastern europe is a nonsense. I mean, have you seen the cost of rent recently? Why should they (anyone really) expect to be paid below the breadline? Especially when they have a skills and qualifications that are in relatively short supply.

gargargar

jacksn wrote: »

Why does someone here have to earn €5,000 a month when someone in Europe can do a better job for €500?

There are basic costs that someone in Ireland needs to charge to make a living. They will charge beyond this if the market will bear it. At the moment there is a skills shortage so the market will bear a premium.

You can pay a lot less in other countries but there are a lot of hidden costs. A customer can weigh up the overall cost and make a decision themselves.

jacksn wrote: »

This craic of "We can charge thousands because we are Irish" offers no guarantees or quality of work over someone offshore and stifles any creativity, optimism or entrepreneurism.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Graham

jacksn wrote: »

The same horror stories happen anywhere, local or offshore. Based in Ireland is no guarantee of coding quality.

Those stories happen much much more often when you off-shore projects. Particularly as those approaching the off-shorers are those that are often the least familiar with specifying/managing any type of IT project.

Go to an Irish development shop with a ridiculous budget/project and it will soon become clear.

Many (most) of the professional off-shore freelance bidders however will say yes to anything regardless of; the project, it's complexity, the budget, the lack of specification or the clients complete lack of understanding around what it is he/she actually wants.

You want an amazon clone for €500, no problem. With an iPhone app, another $80. Android, sure why not for an extra $50.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Those stories happen much much more often when you off-shore projects. Particularly as those approaching the off-shorers are those that are often the least familiar with specifying/managing any type of IT project.

Go to an Irish development shop with a ridiculous budget/project and it will soon become clear.

Many (most) of the professional off-shore freelance bidders however will say yes to anything regardless of; the project, it's complexity, the budget, the lack of specification or the clients complete lack of understanding around what it is he/she actually wants.

You want an amazon clone for €500, no problem. With an iPhone app, another $80. Android, sure why not for an extra $50.

In my experience on using people outside Ireland over a period of around 18 months for a big software project, in the first 3-4 months I wasn't there on site visiting the project manager every day. And so there was a lot of bull****ting. And I imagine that would generally be the case when your paying a company your not able to manage effectively because its all managed in Skype calls etc which at the outset might seem fine but the reality is very different. But as soon as I moved to the location and managed them every day it was extremely cost effective and productive as they were under the gun to produce the goods.
I think that the cost of building new apps etc as an entrepreneur in Ireland is prohibitive. Its too expensive to hire the people with the right kind of experience on a tight budget. If someone is really serious about building a business around a software project, then hiring a company in the likes of central, eastern and southern europe and actually moving there to manage it is still significantly cheaper then employing Irish developers and really the most efficient way to do it if money is tight.

Digital_Guy

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that the cost of building new apps etc as an entrepreneur in Ireland is prohibitive. Its too expensive to hire the people with the right kind of experience on a tight budget. If someone is really serious about building a business around a software project, then hiring a company in the likes of central, eastern and southern europe and actually moving there to manage it is still significantly cheaper then employing Irish developers and really the most efficient way to do it if money is tight.

Yep but for 99% of people this isn't a runner clearly, meaning it really is just too expensive if you have an idea you want to execute on! Best bet seems to choose an offshore agency that comes with strong reviews, but they'd still have to be managed very closely with firm milestones and so on.