Free MRI Scan's for over 40's countrywide?

Andy From Sligo

Hi all , I am back with might seem another madcap idea (I seem to be having a lot of them lately as I get older) but what about a free national scheme (not just for private patients) whereby all can avail of a free (or low price) MRI scan on the brain, Heart and Lungs.

This could be just the thing to maybe catch early diagnosis of something serious, such as if they MRI the brain maybe see something not right with it, onset of dementia maybe or aneurysm or something else.

If they then scanned the heart and lungs (at the same appointment) things like enlarged heart could show up or blocked arteries and start of lung cancer.

At the moment the way its done is that people wait until they are ill (more headaches than normal, out of breath, pain in chest ) and then (if your lucky) the GP will refer you for a load of tests and (if your lucky) a CT or MRI scan. - but what if there was a national scheme? it could show up some life threatening thing before it even happens so they can catch it early? - would certainly save patients ... and also could save the HSE money in the long run maybe?

I dunno, what do you reckon? - maybe there could be some people who dont want to know if they have something wrong with them and just wait until they pop their clogs one day.

I personally would jump at the chance - last time I checked I think it was something like 300quid to get an MRI, but then I suppose you have to get a consultant or 2 to look over the scans to look for anything abnormal, I know the costs most probably be astronomical and in this day of the HSE making cuts to this and that I couldnt see it happening ...

Fr_Dougal

Given up on the free coffee?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Anita Blow

You don't MRI a heart or lungs and it's not used to pick up dementia/lung cancer/blocked arteries. You only MRI specific locations and even then it's only if you're looking for something in particular. An MRI without any signs or symptoms to give an indication as to what you might find is entirely useless.

Nevermind the fact it's one of the most expensive imaging tools and we have a 1-2 year elective waiting list to deal with the current load.

piplip87

Waiting lists are ridiculous by introducing free or low cost ones to the general public those with MS for example who may need a MRI to check on medication progress would then face even longer waits.

Wesser

This is called screening. Screening only works if certain criteria are met.
For example. There is no.point screening for a condition for which there is no cure. Ie there is no cure for dementia.
Also dementia cannot be seen on an MRI. Heart diease us best detected wuth angiography.

People think that MRI detects all ....i t does not.

When you say cheap MRI.... somebody has to pay for it.... that s the government.....so money has to come out of somewhere else of the healthcare budget.... so less miney to treat the conditions that you actually detect.

In short it would be a total waste of money.

Loueln

would increase morbidity and mortlity. asymptomatic benign lesions identified by screening mri would have to be investigated with invasive tests to prove they are harmless. and then the cost

Rodin

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Hi all , I am back with might seem another madcap idea (I seem to be having a lot of them lately as I get older) but what about a free national scheme (not just for private patients) whereby all can avail of a free (or low price) MRI scan on the brain, Heart and Lungs.

This could be just the thing to maybe catch early diagnosis of something serious, such as if they MRI the brain maybe see something not right with it, onset of dementia maybe or aneurysm or something else.

If they then scanned the heart and lungs (at the same appointment) things like enlarged heart could show up or blocked arteries and start of lung cancer.

At the moment the way its done is that people wait until they are ill (more headaches than normal, out of breath, pain in chest ) and then (if your lucky) the GP will refer you for a load of tests and (if your lucky) a CT or MRI scan. - but what if there was a national scheme? it could show up some life threatening thing before it even happens so they can catch it early? - would certainly save patients ... and also could save the HSE money in the long run maybe?

I dunno, what do you reckon? - maybe there could be some people who dont want to know if they have something wrong with them and just wait until they pop their clogs one day.

I personally would jump at the chance - last time I checked I think it was something like 300quid to get an MRI, but then I suppose you have to get a consultant or 2 to look over the scans to look for anything abnormal, I know the costs most probably be astronomical and in this day of the HSE making cuts to this and that I couldnt see it happening ...

Any idea how long a whole-body MRI would take?
It's a terrible idea.
Sorry

And €300 wouldn't get much MRI'd.
A full body scan would be 4 figures - not to mention the workload on radiologists.
PET-CT to screen for cancer - now I'd possibly pay for that.

Andy From Sligo

Anita Blow wrote: »

You don't MRI a heart or lungs and it's not used to pick up dementia/lung cancer/blocked arteries. You only MRI specific locations and even then it's only if you're looking for something in particular. An MRI without any signs or symptoms to give an indication as to what you might find is entirely useless.

Nevermind the fact it's one of the most expensive imaging tools and we have a 1-2 year elective waiting list to deal with the current load.

well you sound like you know what your talking about so what scan does detect heart lungs and brain and arteries? - a CT scan?

Calibos

Doable once AI radiologists/machine learning are up to snuff and liability issues are worked out.

Apparently we're getting close in the former where testing is showing the machine learning algorithms are better than humans at diagnosing certain diseases. The liability issue might be harder. Who do you sue when the algorithm misses your cancer?

I know MRI machines are a very expensive bit of kit but the more its used then the cheaper each scan is as the cost of the machine is amortised across a lot more people. The roadblock is the cost of the human specialists to interpret the scans which is where the bulk of the cost of a scan is. If Humans can be taken out of the equation for the bulk of the scans and replaced with an AI, then it would be a case of Miniature American Flags for some and free MRI scans for everyone!!

Rodin

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well you sound like you know what your talking about so what scan does detect heart lungs and brain and arteries? - a CT scan?

Depends on what you're looking for.

CT does better with bone while MRI is superior for soft tissues.
CT is much quicker but is irradiating. MRI much slower but no radiation.

The problem of false positives is also a big issue.
One big screening test, Breast Check, is a disaster if looked at objectively.

Andy From Sligo

Rodin wrote: »

Any idea how long a whole-body MRI would take?
.....

well it wouldnt be a full body scan, it would just be head heart and lungs

dxhound2005

People won't even stay indoors when told to do so. So unless everyone turned up for the MRI there would be no herd immunity. I would go if there was free coffee.

bazz26

And who pays for all these "free" MRI scans? Who pays for the equipment, the maintenance of it and the training involved to use it? Maybe in cuckoo land it's free but here in the real world these things cost money and usually by the taxpayer.

Would you be happy Andy to pay more tax for a "free" MRI?

Rodin

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well it wouldnt be a full body scan, it would just be head heart and lungs

What about liver, pancreas, bowel, stomach, prostate, ovaries, uterus, breast....

Wesser

Your GPis slow to order one for you because he feels you don't need it.
There i s a massive waiting list for MRI scan for people who actually need one. By ordering one that you don't need your GP is just making the waiting list longer for everyone else.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Andy, as your ideas go, this is absolutely average.

MRI would be too expensive and ineffective. There are many more screening programmes that would be prioritised before this.

bazz26

Maybe they can through in a free coffee with each scan. :pac:

Andy From Sligo

where are the hold-ups /waiting list in MRI scans? - I know they take a long time to do per patient, but is that really where the backlog/waiting list is/are?

discobeaker

piplip87 wrote: »

Waiting lists are ridiculous by introducing free or low cost ones to the general public those with MS for example who may need a MRI to check on medication progress would then face even longer waits.

I have MS and am with the Mater hospital. I have to have an MRI every 2 years to check if there is any progress with my illness but I have spoken to people who have other problems less serious that have waited up to 6 years for an MRI.

Problem is we don't have enough MRI machines in the country and enough consultants to review the findings. I was meant to have an MRI 6 weeks ago but it was cancelled due to a consultant leaving the practice so now there is a backlog and I've no idea when I will get another appointment

Rodin

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

where are the hold-ups /waiting list in MRI scans? - I know they take a long time to do per patient, but is that really where the backlog/waiting list is/are?

Yes.
Only so many hours in the day.

Wesser

More patients trying to get through the system than there is scanners.

Doctor a don't just order scans ' to check things'. The have to listen to what the symptom is, examine the patient and then mentally come up with a list if possible diagnosis. Then then pick a test tailored depending on what they think is going in. They don't just pick a scan just to have a look. They have to have a specific question or condition in mind with each test they order. Some conditions are not detected by MRI scans. For example dementia is not detected with a scan.

The cost of the equipment. The cost of operating the scheme. The cost of expert assessment of the results. The cost of making it available nationwide. The cost of publicizing the scheme.

I for one have no idea why this hasn't happened.

Andy From Sligo

is there anything online to say what/which hospitals in the country have MRI scanners - I know Sligo has one

Capt'n Midnight

Rodin wrote: »

PET-CT to screen for cancer - now I'd possibly pay for that.

The cancer risk from an abdominal CT scan is something like 1 in 2,000* Depending on who you believe it's nearly 1% of your cancer risk in the US.




*the data is still being investigated and as sensors improve lower X-ray powers are needed. Older people have lower risk because they'll have died of something else by the time that cancer catches up. Regardless , annual full body CT scan are not recommended.

Anita Blow

A single PET CT gives you 8 years worth of background radiation. Definitely not something you want to be having done without good reason.
Generally radiologists will not approve a request for imaging without a good reason for the request and how the result effects your management.

Andy From Sligo

Anita Blow wrote: »

A single PET CT gives you 8 years worth of background radiation. Definitely not something you want to be having done without good reason.
Generally radiologists will not approve a request for imaging without a good reason for the request and how the result effects your management.

so CT gives you a dose of radiation, but MRI doesnt and its much clearer/better pictures .. Have i that right?

Icemancometh

Don't forget the opportunity cost. It's be a huge expense to buy all the MRI machines and hire radiologists to do this. What expected benefit would you get and what else could you spend that money on?

Also agree that MRI scans for general population screening is a poor idea from a false positive POV.

Andy From Sligo

Icemancometh wrote: »

Don't forget the opportunity cost. It's be a huge expense to buy all the MRI machines and hire radiologists to do this. What expected benefit would you get and what else could you spend that money on?

Also agree that MRI scans for general population screening is a poor idea from a false positive POV.

Money costs aside though if it started detecting problems at an early stage with yourself or a member of your family and it could be treated because something showed up which didnt look right with the organ it was scanning and saved a life or much more complications down the line this would be immeasurable would it not.

How many times do we hear that someone has quickly passed away because of an underlying undiagnosed health condition?

Capt'n Midnight

DNA screening is getting cheaper as time goes on. The big question is when it's cheap enough to do a whole population. Or rather at what point the benefits of doing it now outweigh the savings of waiting a little longer for the cost to drop even more.

It's fairly non-invasive so low risk.
It's not a precise science, but as more data and stats are gathered the predictions will get better. Oncogenes indicate a likely hood of certain types of cancer, but DNA won't tell you anything about how much you smoked or drank.

There are a few data protection issues of course. At least , thanks to the EU, we don't have to worry about the insurance companies loading for genetic conditions in the same way the US companies are.

goose2005

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9hEa8LKG4c