Getting neutral wire installed for smart light switches

Luckycharms_74

Hi All

Was thinking of switching light switches to smart switches in my mother's house. It was built c.1989.
I removed the face place and notice there are only black and red wires as per attached pic.
For the smart switches, it needs a neutral wire. How big of a job is it to get neutral wires fitted in the house?

I see the following chart on the wiring regulations and time periods.

jmBuildExt

It depends on the house.
2 storey or bungalow?
Usually the neutral is just connected between the light fittings on the circuit.
You (your electrician) would have to run a new one around the switches or from the light back to the switch (N.B. I'm not an electrician)
Bungalow... you might get away with no damage if you're lucky, by fishing wires up/down to/from the attic.
2 storey id be surprised if you got away with not having to pull up an upstairs floor or put a hole in downstairs ceiling.

But... There are some smart switches that don't require the neutral. I think xiaomi do a variety of switches and one of them doesn't require neutral, also there are battery operated switches also (ikea controller).

Might be worth asking about your options over in the iot forum
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1777

Luckycharms_74

jmBuildExt wrote: »

It depends on the house.
2 storey or bungalow?
Usually the neutral is just connected between the light fittings on the circuit.
You (your electrician) would have to run a new one around the switches or from the light back to the switch (N.B. I'm not an electrician)
Bungalow... you might get away with no damage if you're lucky, by fishing wires up/down to/from the attic.
2 storey id be surprised if you got away with not having to pull up an upstairs floor or put a hole in downstairs ceiling.

But... There are some smart switches that don't require the neutral. I think xiaomi do a variety of switches and one of them doesn't require neutral, also there are battery operated switches also (ikea controller).

Might be worth asking about your options over in the iot forum
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1777

Thanks for that info.
It's a 2 story house. The electrician did say that upstairs no problem fishing cables to switches, but as you said downstairs will be the issue with pulling up floorboards etc.

I have posted in one of the threads the same issue so hopefully will get a reply.

2011

What is smart about the light switches?

If you go for a Philips Hue solution you will have a smarter solution without needing to do any rewiring. Lots of other advantages too.

Luckycharms_74

2011 wrote: »

What is smart about the light switches?

If you go for a Philips Hue solution you will have a smarter solution without needing to do any rewiring. Lots of other advantages too.

tbh I just don't know what to get as I'm a noob in relation to home automation.

What would I need for the Phillips Hue solution? I have read a bit and I would need the bridge also to work off-site.

Maybe you could recommend the setup?

2011

Have a read of this and then ask questions:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057668794

It’s simple to set up and change around.

Only 1 bridge required per installation. All lamps are dimmable, can be controlled by timers, wireless motion detectors, your phone or wireless switches. The lamps themselves are “smart”. IKEA make lamps for a fraction of the price that seamlessly integrate with the Philips Hue system.

peter_dublin

Hi.

Instead of tearing the place up what about Aeotec Nano Dimmer or Fibaro Dimmer 2, both can operate without a Neutral by fitting a small bypass in the light fitting. They go behind the switch so the original plate can be used. Also Zwave is not sucking you into a venders ecosystem such a Philips Hue, it's generally all cross compatible and you can also use any standard dimmable LED bulb as the brains is behind the switch and not in the bulb.

Another factor left out is that for smart bulbs to work means leaving the switch always on which is not the case for the modules I listed above.

2011

peter_dublin wrote: »

Instead of tearing the place up

That is the whole point of Philips Hur, there is no tearing up as no wiring changes are necessary.

what about Aeotec Nano Dimmer or Fibaro Dimmer 2, both can operate without a Neutral by fitting a small bypass in the light fitting.

I am not familiar with these, can they:
1) Allow lights to be controlled from anywhere via a smart phone?
2) Do they have wirless switches which allow for preprogrammed scenes?
3) Have wireless motion detectors available?
4) Make it possible to get lights to switch to routines such as dusk to dawn?
5) Be locates aware? i.e. turn on lights automatically when you arrive home by tracking your location.
6) Provide you with 16 million color variations? Admittedly this pushes the cost up quite a bit compared to the cheaper white lamps.

Philips Hue does all of the above and more.

Also Zwave is not sucking you into a venders ecosystem such a Philips Hue, it's generally all cross compatible and you can also use any standard dimmable LED bulb as the brains is behind the switch and not in the bulb.

As above Philips Hue doesn’t lock you in either, IKEA smart lamps are fully compatible. They are far cheaper, my eight GI10 lamps from IKEA work seamlessly with my Philips Hue system. They only cost €7 each. See link.

Another factor left out is that for smart bulbs to work means leaving the switch always on which is not the case for the modules I listed above.

So what? I just linked the switches out and replaced them with a €2 plank plate. It looks very neat. The lights in my hall and landing have no switches anymore, these operate on motion detectors only (or via the app if I wanted). Also if it is too bright they won’t activate. Light level threshold is fully adjustable as is the duration the lights remain on after they detect no motion. All accessorie are configurable from my phone. In addition everything works with Google Home, Alexa etc.

A bit smarter than any smart dimmer I have seen, and if you take advantage of the IKEA smart lamps it is very cheap. You only need 1 Philips Hue bridge for the entire house and this cost around €40. The app and use of the app is free.

I can also switch and dim each and every lamp individually.

peter_dublin

Yes Z wave can do everything you asked above including scripting as complex scenes as you want. Have a look at Fibaro to see demonstrations. Assuming it is going into his mothers house and she may or may not be using it I would think she may not want to have to remember to leave the switch on to ensure the smart light bulb works.

Some of the scenes I have setup are certain lights on or off at dusk. Hall lights comes on low dimmed level if kids open their door to go to the toilet at night, same for bathroom if door is opened at night. We also have Z wave heating control, it also controls the heating and monitors the power of several devices to push notification when they are complete.

2011

peter_dublin wrote: »

Yes Z wave can do everything you asked above including scripting as complex scenes as you want. Have a look at Fibaro to see demonstrations.

Will do.
How is it on price?
Much wiring required?
Does it work with Google Home / Alexa ?

Assuming it is going into his mothers house and she may or may not be using it I would think she may not want to have to remember to leave the switch on to ensure the smart light bulb works.

As explained in my last post there is nothing to remember as the original switches are either gone or replaced with wireless switches.

peter_dublin

Each module is about 45 pounds. I think it's good but others may think it's too expensive. Very little wiring is involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ixU9YAQ0U

Yes, the Hub connects to Alexa / Google Home. Most if not all have a skill.

The entire point is to keep the switch, the removal of the switch and blanking of it is in breach of wiring regulations as the lamp holder is always live and you don't need to purchase a smart "switch" for each room as you re use the originals.

2011

peter_dublin wrote: »

The entire point is to keep the switch, the removal of the switch and blanking of it is in breach of wiring regulations as the lamp holder is always live

Which regulation is that?

Many ceiling roses are live even when the local switch is off. In addition emergency lights have an unswitched permanent supply. I have also seen many industrial installations that have no switches installed on lighting for safety reasons i.e. turning off these lights presents an unacceptable risk.

peter_dublin

2011 wrote: »

Which regulation is that?

Many ceiling roses are live even when the local switch is off. In addition emergency lights have an unswitched permanent supply. I have also seen many industrial installations that have no switches installed on lighting for safety reasons i.e. turning off these lights presents an unacceptable risk.

Electrical according to the electrical who installed all my zwave stuff, something about removing local means of isolation. Huge difference between a looped live inside the rose connectors which you would have to physically open and the live prongs inside the actual bulb socket if you don't turn off the switch at the wall. My house has double pole switches which kill both the live and neutral in the ceiling rose lamp holders. A smart switch with the wall plate removed means your the live and neutral are always live and unlike a socket there is no safety shutters to prevent you coming into contact with them.

2011

peter_dublin wrote: »

Electrical according to the electrical who installed all my zwave stuff, something about removing local means of isolation.

I don't believe that such a regulation exists. I can think of so many examples of lights having no switches, clean rooms being just one example.

If I am wrong I am confident that someone will post it up here quickly enough.

Huge difference between a looped live inside the rose connectors which you would have to physically open and the live prongs inside the actual bulb socket if you don't turn off the switch at the wall.

There is also a huge difference between switching off at your Z wave switch and properly isolating the light.

My house has double pole switches which kill both the live and neutral in the ceiling rose lamp holders.

That is proper isolation, but also completely unnecessary in my opinion.

A smart switch with the wall plate removed means your the live and neutral are always live and unlike a socket there is no safety shutters to prevent you coming into contact with them.

Yup, so if I require isolation I could simply switch the MCB off.

Bruthal

peter_dublin wrote: »

and unlike a socket there is no safety shutters to prevent you coming into contact with them.

There are no safety shutters to prevent that when you have a standard switch on the wall either.

Stoner

2011 wrote:

I don't believe that such a regulation exists. I can think of so many examples of lights having no switches, clean rooms being just one example.

He's on to something.

A smart lighting Control module turns a junction box into an electronic device and it needs a local means of isolation.

If you have a 6 gang klik box you can cable into it. Make it a smart Dali LCM and you need to isolate it, a single klik does the trick.

2011

Stoner wrote: »

A smart lighting Control module turns a junction box into an electronic device and it needs a local means of isolation.

You are talking about a Z wave switch? I am talking about linking out an existing switch and replacing it with a blank plate. I am suggesting that the latter doesn’t require local isolation, I think that your point is that the he former does?

Stoner

2011 wrote:

You are talking about a Z wave switch? I am talking about linking out an existing switch and replacing it with a blank plate. I am suggesting that the latter doesn’t require local isolation, I think that your point is that the he former does?

Ok. That's fine, I agree here

I was talking about adding the module at the ceiling rose where the feeds were looped from by adding electronics to a junction box.

There was some talk of "live prongs' at the fitting

2011

Stoner wrote: »

Ok. That's fine, I agree here

Grand.
So, in summary I am not saying that Z wave switches are a bad solution. I don't know enough about them to comment one way or the other. They seem to have many of the features that Philips Hue have. However from what has been described the install seems more involved than Philips Hue as they need some wiring and from watching the video a deeper switch box. So far I can’t see any advantage that they have over Philips Hue.

Stoner

2011 wrote:

So far I can’t see any advantage that they have over Philips Hue.

No batteries, and lamps are cheap, ikea changed that a bit

pauljw

Hi,

I know I'm a little late in responding to this, but I am looking at installing a similar smart switch.

I'm confused with your question as you seem to confirm that you actually have a neutral wire (the black one) therefore you can install the switch. Is that the case?

I have similar wiring an would appreciate any help you could give.

Thanks

Paul