can work not pay bonus for paternity leave

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 11:48am #1

Hi,

Im currently awaiting a reply from my employer regarding my bonus.

Now my bonus is in my contract as a monthly payment and is based on KPIS etc.

If someone is on Annual leave then they are not penalised on their bonus for not having these KPIs for the days they arent there its taken as a given they would reach them( under normal circumstances) but if you are absent without prior knowledge for the company i.e. sick etc you are deducted for that

However my boss says she is unsure regarding the payment of bonus while i was on 2 weeks paternity leave and is going to discuss it with our HR department.

As its paid paternity i would consider it the same as annual leave and should be considered the same regarding not being penalised, similar to if a woman is on paternity leave she retains her working rights based on her contract etc.

Can anyone weigh in on this? Have they been in a similar situation?
Would this be a workers rights issue if they deny the bonus?

NB: my company are pretty fair and i dont see them saying no but im just asking just in case

salmocab · 08-03-2018 11:51am

Well your holidays are paid by the company and the paternity leave is paid by the state so they aren’t the same thing. Don’t know the answer to your question but they aren’t comparable.

heroics · 08-03-2018 11:52am

Do they pay the bonus to women on maternity leave?

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 11:54am

salmocab wrote: »

Well your holidays are paid by the company and the paternity leave is paid by the state so they aren’t the same thing. Don’t know the answer to your question but they aren’t comparable.

True but there is an option for the company to be paid by the state and everything continues are normal regarding pay wise. Note: due to issues surounding the birth this option wasnt available so my company didnt pay me for that time and im going to be paid by the SW

However i believe this may fall into the same catogary as a woman on maternity leave and how her working rights are handled.

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 12:25pm

So ive been reading the http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/act/11/enacted/en/html act and it seems to contradict itself.

It says fathers should be "treated" as if I was not absent i.e our bonus is based on attendance KPIS but then says other my remuneration i.e wages.

19. (1) During a period of absence from work by an employee while on paternity leave, the employee shall be deemed to have been in the employment of the employer and, accordingly, while so absent the employee shall, subject to subsection (4) and section 21 , be treated as if she or he had not been so absent; and such absence shall not affect any right related to the employee’s employment (other than the employee’s right to remuneration during such absence), whether conferred by statute, contract or otherwise

Then goes on to say

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/act/11/section/22/enacted/en/html#sec22

22. (1) An employer shall not penalise, or threaten penalisation of, an employee for proposing to exercise or having exercised his or her entitlement to paternity leave.

(b) unfair treatment of the employee, including selection for redundancy, and

Its really confused me now

Love2love · 08-03-2018 12:31pm

If a woman is on Maternity Leave, her rights are the same in regard to accruing leave etc but there is no obligation on an organisation to pay her when she is not there. I would believe that this would fall under the same.

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 12:40pm

Love2love wrote: »

If a woman is on Maternity Leave, her rights are the same in regard to accruing leave etc but there is no obligation on an organisation to pay her when she is not there. I would believe that this would fall under the same.

thank you for that.

However with my company employees are not penalised on their bonus for taking annual leave but are for unapproved leave such as sick etc.

As paternity leave is apporoved leave and pay is a recent enough thing im not sure where it stands.

2 weeks off where your rights arent effected,you cant be treated as if you are not there and pay can be made to you or you employeer justs make it merky waters

jimmycrackcorm · 08-03-2018 12:57pm

lifeandtimes wrote:

As its paid paternity i would consider it the same as annual leave and should be considered the same regarding not being penalised, similar to if a woman is on paternity leave she retains her working rights based on her contract etc.

I'd agree with this. It should be treated either the same as annual leave or

lifeandtimes wrote:

Can anyone weigh in on this? Have they been in a similar situation? Would this be a workers rights issue if they deny the bonus?

Basically it depends on what is written in your contract.

ibarelycare · 08-03-2018 4:42pm

I don't think there's anything in legislation to cover you here. You don't have a "right" to your bonus, it seems like out of goodwill your employer still pays it if you're on annual leave.

Do women on maternity leave in the company still receive their bonuses each month? If so, then you can certainly argue that you should be entitled to it on the basis of equality. I'd be surprised if that was the case though?

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 4:47pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

I don't think there's anything in legislation to cover you here. You don't have a "right" to your bonus, it seems like out of goodwill your employer still pays it if you're on annual leave.

Do women on maternity leave in the company still receive their bonuses each month? If so, then you can certainly argue that you should be entitled to it on the basis of equality. I'd be surprised if that was the case though?

Thanks for you reply.

I agree i dont have a right per say to a bonus in the sense of workers and civil rights.

However it is part on my employment contract and there is nothing in my contract to say they can remove any aspect of the bonus should i not be present in work. Seems like it just been they way, they pay it for annual leave and take it upon themselves to not pay on sick etc. There are lots of different contracts in this company some with bonus's some without so i can see how they get away with it.

I dont know if woman on maternity leave get the bonus as i dont know of any haha

I wonder if i can argue that im entitled to a bonus as per my contract based on my performance and that because it doesnt say they can take it away for not attending work for a given reason i should still be entitled to it?

ibarelycare · 08-03-2018 4:57pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Thanks for you reply.

I agree i dont have a right per say to a bonus in the sense of workers and civil rights.

However it is part on my employment contract and there is nothing in my contract to say they can remove any aspect of the bonus should i not be present in work. Seems like it just been they way, they pay it for annual leave and take it upon themselves to not pay on sick etc. There are lots of different contracts in this company some with bonus's some without so i can see how they get away with it.

I dont know if woman on maternity leave get the bonus as i dont know of any haha

I wonder if i can argue that im entitled to a bonus as per my contract based on my performance and that because it doesnt say they can take it away for not attending work for a given reason i should still be entitled to it?

How exactly does the bonus work? If you're able to hit your targets in the two weeks that you're working in the month then of course you'll be entitled to it, but I don't understand why you'd be entitled to it otherwise? I know you said that when you're on annual leave it's assumed that your targets will be reached...so what exactly does it say in your contract about the bonus?

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 5:05pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

How exactly does the bonus work? If you're able to hit your targets in the two weeks that you're working in the month then of course you'll be entitled to it, but I don't understand why you'd be entitled to it otherwise? I know you said that when you're on annual leave it's assumed that your targets will be reached...so what exactly does it say in your contract about the bonus?

To be honest its actually pretty vauge.

I just says

You are entitled to maximum bonus of X amount each month.

Becauses theres so many different contracts i assume

Up until now its alwas been based on KPIS, i have a daily target and once i reach that i get the bonus, ive never really had an issue and just took it for granted they could take away any days for sick etc but after reviewing my contract im of the mind set theres an argument that can be had based on the wording of the contract

Ashbx · 08-03-2018 5:18pm

We don't get bonuses in work so I cant comment on that aspect. But we do get an annual review each year and in nearly all cases would get some sort of an wage increase.

However, women who are on maternity leave during this time do not get a raise and have to wait to the following years review. Same applies to increase of annual leave (which usually gets increased every year). Annual leave is different because its included in your annual wage....paternity leave is not.

I am only speculating here but I would assume you wouldn't be entitled to it. Considering you are getting paid paternity leave (which sounds like payment from your employer but correct me if I am wrong), I would think you are quite lucky as many companies would not pay for maternity leave....let alone paternity leave.

At the end of the day, its at the discretion of the employer so they can do what they want.

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 5:23pm

Ashbx wrote: »

We don't get bonuses in work so I cant comment on that aspect. But we do get an annual review each year and in nearly all cases would get some sort of an wage increase.

However, women who are on maternity leave during this time do not get a raise and have to wait to the following years review. Same applies to increase of annual leave (which usually gets increased every year). Annual leave is different because its included in your annual wage....paternity leave is not.

I am only speculating here but I would assume you wouldn't be entitled to it. Considering you are getting paid paternity leave (which sounds like payment from your employer but correct me if I am wrong), I would think you are quite lucky as many companies would not pay for maternity leave....let alone paternity leave.

At the end of the day, its at the discretion of the employer so they can do what they want.

Hi thanks for your reply.

My employer hasnt paid me for paternity leave, its the SW although the option is there for an employer to be paid by SW and they pay you as normal.

Woman in our company still receive maternity pay from our job and SW at the same time(one tops the other up i believe) based on their contracts and accrue holidays etc as normal when out, the bonus seems to be a ghost issue as no one knows.

As ive said the bonus is part of my contract and im entitled to it(although my contract doesnt say specifiy how) but that has always been based on KPIs and to be honest its been so long since ive had a meeting im not sure what the full score is, there have been times when i didnt reach target and still got it but if out sick each day would be deducted, again i never question it as it was always the way but after reviewing my contract in detail i feel i have a case.

Still waiting to hear back though

irishgirl19 · 08-03-2018 5:27pm

My employer tops up our maternity benefit and I wasn't given my usual bonus.
Its a goodwill thing If they do

amtc · 08-03-2018 5:45pm

I know of a woman who has been on continuous maternity leave for four years and has got her bonus every year! It's a state organisation.

davo10 · 08-03-2018 6:41pm

According to CA, paternity benefit is paid by SW, not by the employer, you have no right to any payment from your employer unless it states it in your contract of employment so I don't see how the employer is required to pay your bonus if they are not required to pay your wage while you are off. If your contract specifically states that your employer will pay you full wage/bonus while you are off, then you would be expected to sign your PB over to your employer.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/paternity_benefit.html

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 7:15pm

davo10 wrote: »

According to CA, paternity benefit is paid by SW, not by the employer, you have no right to any payment from your employer unless it states it in your contract of employment so I don't see how the employer is required to pay your bonus if they are not required to pay your wage while you are off. If your contract specifically states that your employer will pay you full wage/bonus while you are off, then you would be expected to sign your PB over to your employer.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/paternity_benefit.html

Just to specific my contract says I'm entitled to 3 days paid paternity leave. The rest is them supplemented by SW.
It does not state anything about a bonus, in fact the only mention of a bonus in my contract is as above. "I am entitled to a maximum bonus of x amount"

Nothing about it being deducted for sick or paternity leave or anything so this is what I'm querying

ibarelycare · 08-03-2018 7:26pm

Maximum bonus...it doesn’t mean you’re automatically entitled to a bonus every month. Bonuses are generally dependent on other factors. KPI is dependent on reaching targets, which presumably you won’t be able to reach if you’re not there for half the month. I don’t think it’s comparable to annual leave, I would say it’s more comparable to sick pay. The fact that the company continues to pay you some salary while you’re receiving Paternity Benefit is irrelevant imo.

It’ll be interesting to hear the outcome of this because if they continue to pay your bonus while you’re on PL is this setting a precedent for employees on ML?

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 7:51pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

Maximum bonus...it doesn’t mean you’re automatically entitled to a bonus every month. Bonuses are generally dependent on other factors. KPI is dependent on reaching targets, which presumably you won’t be able to reach if you’re not there for half the month.

Kpi targets are daily ones so I reach them every day and whilst being on annual leave they don't penalise while not being there so my argument would be why do it on PL

ibarelycare wrote: »

It’ll be interesting to hear the outcome of this because if they continue to pay your bonus while you’re on PL is this setting a precedent for employees on ML?

Well it only would if they contract states their bonus is issue just like mine in such a vague way but again I don't know what anyone else's contract says

ibarelycare · 08-03-2018 8:14pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Kpi targets are daily ones so I reach them every day and whilst being on annual leave they don't penalise while not being there so my argument would be why do it on PL

Not getting your bonus for not hitting targets when you’re not in work isn’t being penalised. AL and PL are not comparable. Would you expect a woman on ML to receive 6 months’ worth of bonus when she’s on leave?

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 8:33pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

Not getting your bonus for not hitting targets when you’re not in work isn’t being penalised. AL and PL are not comparable. Would you expect a woman on ML to receive 6 months’ worth of bonus when she’s on leave?

To be honest it would depend on her contract and circumstances

I was talking to friend tonight and she said a manager in her call centre,Her bonus was based on her teams KPIs, while we was out on ML the team kept reaching them and she in turn was paid her bonus

ibarelycare · 08-03-2018 9:06pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

To be honest it would depend on her contract and circumstances

I was talking to friend tonight and she said a manager in her call centre,Her bonus was based on her teams KPIs, while we was out on ML the team kept reaching them and she in turn was paid her bonus

That’s a different situation. I mean a woman in your workplace with the same terms. Do you think she should be entitled to be paid 6 months’ worth of bonuses based on daily targets, when she’s not actually in work?

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 9:33pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

That’s a different situation. I mean a woman in your workplace with the same terms. Do you think she should be entitled to be paid 6 months’ worth of bonuses based on daily targets, when she’s not actually in work?

I'm not trying to be smart and I do appreciate your replies but my opinion doesn't really matter in this or that situation.

It's what I'm contracted for and this is where the issie is arising

ted1 · 08-03-2018 9:35pm

salmocab wrote: »

Well your holidays are paid by the company and the paternity leave is paid by the state so they aren’t the same thing. Don’t know the answer to your question but they aren’t comparable.

They may be getting paid by their employer. Ours pays two weeks.

salmocab · 08-03-2018 10:03pm

ted1 wrote: »

They may be getting paid by their employer. Ours pays two weeks.

He said he’s getting paid for the 2 weeks by the social welfare

kaymin · 08-03-2018 10:06pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

So ive been reading the http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/act/11/enacted/en/html act and it seems to contradict itself.

It says fathers should be "treated" as if I was not absent i.e our bonus is based on attendance KPIS but then says other my remuneration i.e wages.

19. (1) During a period of absence from work by an employee while on paternity leave, the employee shall be deemed to have been in the employment of the employer and, accordingly, while so absent the employee shall, subject to subsection (4) and section 21 , be treated as if she or he had not been so absent; and such absence shall not affect any right related to the employee’s employment (other than the employee’s right to remuneration during such absence), whether conferred by statute, contract or otherwise

Then goes on to say

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/act/11/section/22/enacted/en/html#sec22

22. (1) An employer shall not penalise, or threaten penalisation of, an employee for proposing to exercise or having exercised his or her entitlement to paternity leave.

(b) unfair treatment of the employee, including selection for redundancy, and

Its really confused me now

I don't think there's a contradiction here. The first paragraph states your rights remain the same as if you were not on paternity leave except in relation to remuneration (which would include salary and bonuses) - which could be legally reduced or eliminated completely.

The second paragraph refers to penalisation - I don't see how not paying a daily bonus when KPIs are not met for those days is penal.

What is the exact wording in your contract regarding KPIs and payment of bonuses? You may be able to rely on past practice if it's in your favour but bonuses are usually discretionary unless you've met specific criteria for receiving them. I wouldn't view annual leave and paternal leave as comparable for the purposes of the bonus discussion.

Sounds like it's a good company to work for with good benefits.

killbillvol2 · 08-03-2018 10:09pm

amtc wrote: »

I know of a woman who has been on continuous maternity leave for four years and has got her bonus every year! It's a state organisation.

So with 26 weeks maternity leave she's had a baby roughly every 6 months for 4 years? Fair dues to her. She clearly deserves a bonus.

On topic, OP I'd say you've created a bit of a headache for HR. As you said, there's conflicting information out there. It might be simpler for them to pay your bonus than delve into all the relevant rules and regulations.

lifeandtimes · 08-03-2018 10:30pm

Thanks for all the replies.

To clarify all my contract say about a bonus is im entitled to a maximum bonus of x amount.

There is no mention of kpis or deductions during sick or paternity leave, just that's what I'm entitled too and nothing else.

So it's wide open to interpretation from both sides

kaymin · 08-03-2018 10:51pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

To clarify all my contract say about a bonus is im entitled to a maximum bonus of x amount.

There is no mention of kpis or deductions during sick or paternity leave, just that's what I'm entitled too and nothing else.

So it's wide open to interpretation from both sides

Sounds discretionary so the only thing you could rely on is past practice for paternity leave taken by other employees.

ibarelycare · 08-03-2018 11:30pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

So with 26 weeks maternity leave she's had a baby roughly every 6 months for 4 years? Fair dues to her. She clearly deserves a bonus.

You’re entitled to take an extra 16 weeks unpaid maternity on top of your initial 26 weeks if you wish. Additionally you will have accrued annual leave and public holidays to use. Many women can take the guts of a year off when on maternity by maximising their entitlements. It’s not unheard of for women to come back from maternity leave pregnant again. As well as maternity entitlements there is the option of parental leave. A girl in my last job went on maternity leave and had three children (single births) and came back to work 4 years after the start of her first ML.

can work not pay bonus for paternity leave

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