Diesel renaissance - says VW!

_Kaiser_

Nickindublin wrote: »

The biggest issue is what the average buyer can afford to pay. What's the average price paid for a car in Ireland 10k? Electric cars wont be affordable to the masses for many years unless there is massive production of affordable electric cars in the very near future which I don't see.

Lets take the VW Golf for example. VW release a model that can do 300km on a single charge and I mean real world range in 2021. Price 40k. It will be 2026 by the time that car is affordable for the average buyer if they are lucky. How many will be sold though in 2021 though?

Also.. what will the battery life be like in 2026 and how much will that cost to replace?

I do between 40 and 50k km a year of mostly motorway runs of no less than an hour. I don't have a garden so no home charging. There's not one at the office either.

Now EV advocates will say "but your usage isn't the norm".. tell that to the increasing number of drivers commuting to Dublin every day from 2/3 counties away because of the cost and shortage of property in and around the city. It's like the Good Times all over again

As for the idea then of EV's replacing city-dwelling drivers.. I thought the idea was to get them OUT of their cars altogether and on to public transport (eg: this new BusConnects plan), not replace one car with another?

All EV's really are then at the moment is a means for hipsters to be smug and condescending to those of us who actually can't afford to spend 40/50k on a new car that won't suit our usage anyway.

ELM327

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Also.. what will the battery life be like in 2026 and how much will that cost to replace?

I do between 40 and 50k km a year of mostly motorway runs of no less than an hour. I don't have a garden so no home charging. There's not one at the office either.

Now EV advocates will say "but your usage isn't the norm".. tell that to the increasing number of drivers commuting to Dublin every day from 2/3 counties away because of the cost and shortage of property in and around the city. It's like the Good Times all over again

As for the idea then of EV's replacing city-dwelling drivers.. I thought the idea was to get them OUT of their cars altogether and on to public transport (eg: this new BusConnects plan), not replace one car with another?

All EV's really are then at the moment is a means for hipsters to be smug and condescending to those of us who actually can't afford to spend 40/50k on a new car that won't suit our usage anyway.

That's my usage pattern too. I do between 50-60k per year. I commute approx 120km per day and some incidental driving at work aswell (on site chargers at my main site)
Currently on my second EV. I'm getting frustrated with the lack of home charging, but (as my recent thread on the TCO shows) it's a perfectly feasible solution once you have home charging installed.


PS: I have no garden but am getting a charger installed at my assigned parking spot.

PPS: your last sentence is quite frankly ridiculous and unfounded. I've seen your posts on this board for some time now and to be honest would have expected less of the condescension from you.

Trasna1

ELM327 wrote: »

Well that's a flat earth level of fake news tbh.
It's a myth, an all too common one sadly, that is commonly and regularly debunked.

Where do you think the Cobalt come from?

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

Where do you think the Cobalt come from?

The corners of the earth.
Alternatively , it comes from the same place as the cobalt in your phone battery, your laptop battery etc

_Kaiser_

ELM327 wrote: »

That's my usage pattern too. I do between 50-60k per year. I commute approx 120km per day and some incidental driving at work aswell (on site chargers at my main site)
Currently on my second EV. I'm getting frustrated with the lack of home charging, but (as my recent thread on the TCO shows) it's a perfectly feasible solution once you have home charging installed.


PS: I have no garden but am getting a charger installed at my assigned parking spot.

PPS: your last sentence is quite frankly ridiculous and unfounded. I've seen your posts on this board for some time now and to be honest would have expected less of the condescension from you.

I'm renting, so paying for installations isn't a runner even if I had the space. The office is a shared car park among several blocks/companies. Presumably the landlords/estate owners would have to do that, but given how wet the surface gets during any sort of sustained rain, and that the underground parking is closed off/never opened (something about the roofing from what I've heard) I'm guessing it's not something that'll be a priority.

I've read lots of EV posting about how great it is, how cheap it is (the FOR NOW part of that seems to be glossed over.. free charging and cheap tax won't last if indeed most people got onboard with the idea), and those same posters then calling for penalising diesel drivers further - it just smacks me of the "I'm alright Jack" attitudes that are very common in this country.

When I can buy an A6 for the same used-car money I bought my current one, that will do the same range and can be fully charged in under 5 minutes THEN it might make sense... but we're nowhere near that stage yet and putting further burdens on people who have to make do in the meantime (running a diesel over that sort of mileage every month isn't cheap either let alone saving for a 40/50k new car) is just unfair and unjustified.

ELM327

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm renting, so paying for installations isn't a runner even if I had the space. The office is a shared car park among several blocks/companies. Presumably the landlords/estate owners would have to do that, but given how wet the surface gets during any sort of sustained rain, and that the underground parking is closed off/never opened (something about the roofing from what I've heard) I'm guessing it's not something that'll be a priority.

I've read lots of EV posting about how great it is, how cheap it is (the FOR NOW part of that seems to be glossed over.. free charging and cheap tax won't last if indeed most people got onboard with the idea), and those same posters then calling for penalising diesel drivers further - it just smacks me of the "I'm alright Jack" attitudes that are very common in this country.

When I can buy an A6 for the same used-car money I bought my current one, that will do the same range and can be fully charged in under 5 minutes THEN it might make sense... but we're nowhere near that stage yet and putting further burdens on people who have to make do in the meantime (running a diesel over that sort of mileage every month isn't cheap either let alone saving for a 40/50k new car) is just unfair and unjustified.

So many points to address here so bear with me.
Chargers can be located in the rain, this is a common myth about electric charging - the cars can be charged in the rain. Indeed I can't actually think off hand of any chargers I've visited except for in Hotels or that, which were indoors.


You are quite right with the high initial costs. It confused me at first, if you read my thread on the EV forum you'll see I struggled with the idea of TCO vs cashflow for a while. When your fuel is free - and if not free (eg charging at home) it costs you less than €2 to charge from empty to full. My car will do 180-220km in the real world on the motorway for that €2. And I'm a cheapskate so I will charge in work or on (temporarily free) public chargers.


If I can do 50-60k per year in an EV, with no hassle (once my home charger is installed anyway) anyone can. The only reasons not to own an EV right now are if you do more than say 150km per trip, if you are a sales rep or need to tow something (and cant afford a Tesla Model X), or if you have no home and no work chargers.


I know people doing 5k km per year around dublin city, and for the rest of the 95% of the time, the car is parked. That person should be driving an EV. And we need to target that person to ensure they change to EV - while not punishing too much the sales rep who cannot change right now.

Shefwedfan

Philb76 wrote: »

Well said but as long as he's alright feck everyone else an absolute moron he posts the same boring spiel and condescending s***e but it's grand cos he has a diesel as well

Please explain?

Shefwedfan

_Brian wrote: »

It’s a juvenile view.

Tax something out of existence when there is no real alternative, creating cost and hardship on people.

How exactly is it juvenile? or is it juvenile because you don't agree with it?



Is petrol/hybrid not an alternative? electric of course is an alternative....


Cycling, public transport(trains,buses,trams), walking, they are all alternatives as well for people in cities


I have always said the answer is not to move people from diesel to electric cars but really the government should concentrate on moving people out of car altogether

Shefwedfan

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm renting, so paying for installations isn't a runner even if I had the space. The office is a shared car park among several blocks/companies. Presumably the landlords/estate owners would have to do that, but given how wet the surface gets during any sort of sustained rain, and that the underground parking is closed off/never opened (something about the roofing from what I've heard) I'm guessing it's not something that'll be a priority.

I've read lots of EV posting about how great it is, how cheap it is (the FOR NOW part of that seems to be glossed over.. free charging and cheap tax won't last if indeed most people got onboard with the idea), and those same posters then calling for penalising diesel drivers further - it just smacks me of the "I'm alright Jack" attitudes that are very common in this country.

When I can buy an A6 for the same used-car money I bought my current one, that will do the same range and can be fully charged in under 5 minutes THEN it might make sense... but we're nowhere near that stage yet and putting further burdens on people who have to make do in the meantime (running a diesel over that sort of mileage every month isn't cheap either let alone saving for a 40/50k new car) is just unfair and unjustified.

I don't use public charging......in 18 months I have used 5 times I think now.....


Also if you read most posts on forum or from electric car users they say that electric is not for everyone....any post I reply to on motors forum I always ask about mileage, journey types etc etc....if you posted a thread I would say go diesel and if budget then look at mild hybrid diesel as that is out soon


From the rest of the Motor forum the automatic answer is diesel , I have seen people say they have a 50km commute with no long trips and some of the "senior" members of the forum trying to shove diesel options



Some people will still require diesel, that is a fact of life. But people driving in and out of Dublin each day and doing a 60km round trip to work don't need diesel. If you sit in traffic in Dublin majority of cars are diesel, this is a huge issue.

The problem is the Irish people can't actually work it out for themselves they should look at alternative. The government thought they could, providing them with free fuel via the charging network plus loads of other incentives and none of these people moved. So the other option is to tax the ass out of them and get them to move......

Unfortuneatly for the person that actually requires diesel it will mean they get hit in the pocket. So instead of blaming electric car drivers and the government I would look at the other drivers on the road and the lack of ability for them to work out MPG and cost per km.



Having diesel at 10 cent less per ltr than petrol was never going to make sense. Introducing a tax system in 2008 that means a 2ltr A6 is just over 300 quid tax and would have been close to 1k before was never going to last long term.....

elperello

ELM327 wrote: »

I'd respectfully disagree.
We need to recover a lot of taxes to cover these fines
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-faces-annual-eu-energy-fines-of-600m-36857141.html

Respectful disagreement, I'm all for it.

We need to pay those fines but our national fleet of cars will not disappear overnight. That's why the Government needs to find a progressive policy to move people to more sustainable forms of transport. Placing heavy tax burdens on those who can't afford to pay them will not help.

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

No one is talking about penalising existing owners though.
This should be applied to purchases made of new or used fossil fuel cars from say 1/1/2020.

I'd better hurry and get a replacement for my 10 yr old diesel 7 seater so as there is no alternative EV / PHEV 7 seater out there. Although I am not a fan of SUVs I would get an Outlander PHEV if it had a 7 seat option but alas no. So it's diesel or nothing in my case.

Eric Cartman

Lets be honest though, if theres somebody driving <5000km a year, it doesn't matter what they drive, could be an old V12 merchant or a new electric car, they put minimal impact on the environment.

people in the 5000-15000km a year who have the means should probably look at buying an electric car if they can, prime targets for it. two car households should also probably consider it if they can.

people doing diesel miles are probably stuck there for now though, if you were doing 35,000km + a year , very little has changed for you in the past 2 decades bar having DPF's block, adblue and all the other crazy new systems invented to comply to the euro6 standard.

Our fines from the EU aren't going anywhere until we embrace cleaner power generation (nuclear would solve a lot of issues), more rail electrification and reducing the number of trucks on the road , which isn't likely to happen.

our national fleet of passenger cars barely makes a dent in any of that.

heroics

vectra wrote: »

2 things


1)

I wouldn't be seen dead in one of those cars.


2)

How much do they cost?

Number 1 by a thousand.

Hotblack Desiato

ELM327 wrote: »

A shift from Diesel to Petrol is meaningless though, they are both carcinogens and pollutants.
It doesn't matter which grade of dinosaur juice you're burning, it's still dinosaur juice.

Diesel emissions are far more harmful to human health, that's a fact.

_Brian wrote: »

We should restrain from taxing the ass of diesels and diesel fuel because alternative options aren’t there and won’t be for quite some time, they are coming, but not here as an alternative now.

Disagree. The high mileage, high pollution drivers should absolutely be punished. They still won't be paying anything like the true economic cost of the environmental and human health damage they cause.

elperello wrote: »

What we need is a sensible transition period.

There was no transition period for the owners of low emission petrols when the motor tax changes came in and the arse fell out of the secondhand market for them.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Now EV advocates will say "but your usage isn't the norm".. tell that to the increasing number of drivers commuting to Dublin every day from 2/3 counties away because of the cost and shortage of property in and around the city.

The semi-d or detached house dwellers 2-3 counties away can have home charging.

But commuting by car 2-3 counties is not sustainable, whether it's done by EV or not. There will never be enough road space in the city to cater for them. They should be going by rail.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Our fines from the EU aren't going anywhere until we embrace cleaner power generation (nuclear would solve a lot of issues), more rail electrification and reducing the number of trucks on the road , which isn't likely to happen.

Replacing Moneypoint with a nuclear plant would make perfect sense, but it'll never happen.

Rail electrification is a non-runner here outside of commuter routes, the cost is prohibitive and the usage of the inter-city rail network is insufficient to ever pay it back even given the lower running cost over diesel.

Eric Cartman

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Replacing Moneypoint with a nuclear plant would make perfect sense, but it'll never happen.

Rail electrification is a non-runner here outside of commuter routes, the cost is prohibitive and the usage of the inter-city rail network is insufficient to ever pay it back even given the lower running cost over diesel.

You're not wrong, and thats why these EU fines are a non issue as we're not within even half a hope of meeting those targets. In true Irish fashion we'll put a diesel ban in cities, everyone will buy petrol cars and we'll plant some forests and that will be it.

Trasna1

elperello wrote: »

Respectful disagreement, I'm all for it.

We need to pay those fines but our national fleet of cars will not disappear overnight. That's why the Government needs to find a progressive policy to move people to more sustainable forms of transport. Placing heavy tax burdens on those who can't afford to pay them will not help.

If the entire national fleet converted to electric it wouldn't solve the carbon emission problem. Converting to the car fleet EV in the name of environmentalism, whilst ignoring aviation, Data centres, HGVs and in particular agriculture will achieve very little but require huge outlay - all of which has to be imported.

I question the wisdom of requiring a large population to mage a big expensive change for a small impact vs requiring relatively few in industry to make relatively similar adjustments which would have a huge impact. We won't do this of course since it will impact the economy.

We just can't seem to get out head around the fact that transitioning to a low carbon economy necessitates, at present, a reduction in consumption which ultimately means lower growth. EVs, in terms of environmental policy, is simply tinkering at the edges albeit very visible tinkering.

Nickindublin

The government cant afford to shift all cars to EV. The loss in revenue would be enormous. VRT would be less. But the taxes on fuel cant be replaced. I do think what is needed is clear taxation course for the future. Also if there is going to be ban on certain cars in our larger cities. It gives people a clear timeline so they can make decisions. I don't see this happening. They will press the panic button as usual and make a F..... up policy.


What should happen IMO is a plan to reduce diesel cars and remove them out of our cities by 2025:

This can be done by having lower taxes/scrappage on new hybrid/electric cars and raise taxes on new diesel/petrol cars from 2019/2020. I don't mean tax them out of affordability. I mean to make it more viable for people to go hybrid or electric. With new emission testing coming into force this will impact on a lot of cars co2 and increase their vrt.

New taxis and new busses from 2025 should be hybrid or electric where possible. Again incentives to taxi drivers to change especially in larger cities.

More public charging points. This can be done by charging to cover the cost. All petrol stations should be made install them. Also make it a legal obligation of management companies to provide owners in apartments with a charging point. This is law in most countries on the continent.

ELM327

Nickindublin wrote: »

The government cant afford to shift all cars to EV. The loss in revenue would be enormous. VRT would be less. But the taxes on fuel cant be replaced. I do think what is needed is clear taxation course for the future. Also if there is going to be ban on certain cars in our larger cities. It gives people a clear timeline so they can make decisions. I don't see this happening. They will press the panic button as usual and make a F..... up policy.


What should happen IMO is a plan to reduce diesel cars and remove them out of our cities by 2025:

This can be done by having lower taxes/scrappage on new hybrid/electric cars and raise taxes on new diesel/petrol cars from 2019/2020. I don't mean tax them out of affordability. I mean to make it more viable for people to go hybrid or electric. With new emission testing coming into force this will impact on a lot of cars co2 and increase their vrt.

New taxis and new busses from 2025 should be hybrid or electric where possible. Again incentives to taxi drivers to change especially in larger cities.

More public charging points. This can be done by charging to cover the cost. All petrol stations should be made install them. Also make it a legal obligation of management companies to provide owners in apartments with a charging point. This is law in most countries on the continent.

These are all great points. There's already a €7k grant for taxis to change to EV.


I agree, we should set 1/1/25 as the "changeover day", gives enough time for people to buy something before and not be affected. Or to know "what they are getting themselves in for".
A congestion charge for driving a fossil car in Dublin would be a good start. Like london.

Dravokivich

ELM327 wrote: »

These are all great points. There's already a €7k grant for taxis to change to EV.


I agree, we should set 1/1/25 as the "changeover day", gives enough time for people to buy something before and not be affected. Or to know "what they are getting themselves in for".
A congestion charge for driving a fossil car in Dublin would be a good start. Like london.

I don't expect to be able to afford to get such a car nor in a position to run one in the next 7 years. It's great pulling dates when it's something you know you can do.

ELM327

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't expect to be able to afford to get such a car nor in a position to run one in the next 7 years. It's great pulling dates when it's something you know you can do.

Which car can you not afford?
in 7 years my car will be coming up on 8.5 years old.
The 8.5 year old EVs on the market now are at approx 5k-6k, and that's only because of scarcity of supply.

_Kaiser_

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The semi-d or detached house dwellers 2-3 counties away can have home charging.

Not everyone lives in a house. Lots of apartments too. Not everyone owns, and not everyone's landlord will install external chargers and whatever for tenants.

But commuting by car 2-3 counties is not sustainable, whether it's done by EV or not. There will never be enough road space in the city to cater for them. They should be going by rail.

I love this argument... it's always made by someone who doesn't understand the current system which is a) overcrowded as is and b) only suitable for simple A-B journeys.

In my last job your idea would have meant driving to the station, getting a train to the city centre, and then a LUAS to my employer. Aside from the costs of all that, the massive time sink involved would be ridiculous.

In my current job, I'd still be getting the train, but then ANOTHER commuter train back out of Dublin because we don't do orbital routes or connections.

Or I could just drive and do both trips in about an hour each way. Want to change that? Build lots of cheap-but-decent housing and apartments in and around the M50 (still plenty of land there) and with orbital routes connecting them so not everything is routed via "An Lar"

I'm in Cork weekly and am a big fan of their Park and Ride service (which has recently been improved). For a fiver per car, you get a 15 minute service that goes into the city in about 10 minutes. The only downside is that it doesn't run on Sundays (stupid really) but aside from that it's a great idea - and this is from someone who usually drives everywhere.

My own idea is to have massive Park and Ride facilities at the N3, N4, N7 junctions with the M50 with a DART/LUAS running parallel to it stopping at each junction between the Airport and Sandyford. Feeder buses from there to the main industrial estates in Blanch, Ballymount, Sandyford etc.

All of this will never happen though, so until then the roads will still be clogged with commuters who've long been priced out of Dublin but whose jobs unfortunately haven't moved with them.

_Brian

The immediate focus should be to encourage people who don’t really need diesel or even petrol out of them and into whatever alternatives are available.

To eliminate vehicles from urban areas and their drivers onto public transport.

Develop an infrastructure where increased ev’s can be accommodated

Encourage employers to make ev charging available in decent numbers.

There is an awful lot that should happen before massing huge tax onto people who really need diesel to push them into financial oblivion.

Yes the country faces huge fines, but there aren’t the responsibility of diesel drivers and making them pay for failure of government policy is unfair in the extreme.

Hotblack Desiato

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Want to change that? Build lots of cheap-but-decent housing and apartments in and around the M50 (still plenty of land there)

I posted on another thread that every golf course in Dublin should be ploughed up for high density housing ridiculous waste of land.

and with orbital routes connecting them so not everything is routed via "An Lar"

Sounds like Bus Connects. Which every gobshyte local councillor seems to have made it their mission in life to destroy.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Which car can you not afford?
in 7 years my car will be coming up on 8.5 years old.
The 8.5 year old EVs on the market now are at approx 5k-6k, and that's only because of scarcity of supply.

Maybe, but the batteries are done and the range is poverty

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, but the batteries are done and the range is poverty

On the current 8 year old EVs that is true.
Well the batteries are never "done" but the range would be crap due to advances in LI-Ion since 2010-11.


Current range of EVs will not degrade in the same manner. My Ioniq for instance due to the superior BMS will not degrade anything like the first gen. Indeed, some first gen Zoe owners are reporting 1-2% degradation after 100k+ on the clock

Shefwedfan

_Brian wrote: »

The immediate focus should be to encourage people who don’t really need diesel or even petrol out of them and into whatever alternatives are available.

To eliminate vehicles from urban areas and their drivers onto public transport.

Develop an infrastructure where increased ev’s can be accommodated

Encourage employers to make ev charging available in decent numbers.

There is an awful lot that should happen before massing huge tax onto people who really need diesel to push them into financial oblivion.

Yes the country faces huge fines, but there aren’t the responsibility of diesel drivers and making them pay for failure of government policy is unfair in the extreme.

All of these are valid points.

The only issue is the government will say they have tried to do this for the last 7 years and the uptake of electric cars is tiny...purchase grant, free charging, 0% BIK, taxi grant, free home installation followed by grant for charger, tax reductions for employers to install charge points, low road tax, 500 off tolls, all incentives in place for people to move to alternatives and the general public still buy diesel by the bucket load



So after trying for 7 years with the carrot now it is time to hit them with a stick...


You might disagree, I might disagree but do I expect them to continue with the carrot? No....expect a big stick coming in your direction very very soon.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All of these are valid points.

The only issue is the government will say they have tried to do this for the last 7 years and the uptake of electric cars is tiny...purchase grant, free charging, 0% BIK, taxi grant, free home installation followed by grant for charger, tax reductions for employers to install charge points, low road tax, 500 off tolls, all incentives in place for people to move to alternatives and the general public still buy diesel by the bucket load



So after trying for 7 years with the carrot now it is time to hit them with a stick...


You might disagree, I might disagree but do I expect them to continue with the carrot? No....expect a big stick coming in your direction very very soon.

Agree. 7 years of various carrots have not worked.
How many more years of carrots can you realistically expect before the stick?

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, but the batteries are done and the range is poverty

2015 eGolf, over 80k km's in US which has a higher impact on battery due to very high and low weather temps....person done test on battery when it first arrived, then after 80k km's...still reporting the same capacity.....


The eGolf/Ioniq etc are using different batteries to those in Nissan so the degradation is minimal in comparison

elperello

There is a large cohort of car owners out there who cannot afford an electric or indeed any new car.

They are in most cases the people who are keeping the country going. They commute to work, pay taxes, pay mortgages and try to do the best for their families.

I hope this Government won't make the mistake that the FF/Green government made by disrupting the second hand market.

I think a clear strategy should be announced to effect change over time.

When the technology and infrastructure graphs align with the availability and affordability graphs the change will come.

There is no need to impose hardship on an already stretched sector.

ELM327

elperello wrote: »

There is a large cohort of car owners out there who cannot afford an electric or indeed any new car.

They are in most cases the people who are keeping the country going. They commute to work, pay taxes, pay mortgages and try to do the best for their families.

I hope this Government won't make the mistake that the FF/Green government made by disrupting the second hand market.

I think a clear strategy should be announced to effect change over time.

When the technology and infrastructure graphs align with the availability and affordability graphs the change will come.

There is no need to impose hardship on an already stretched sector.

I'm doing all that, and commuting 120km per day to boot.
Is my opinion not valid, because it doesn't align with yours?


A used EV is a better option than a used fossil fuel car in a lot of scenarios - not for everyone of course - but I know very few EV owners who have gone back to ICE.... and lots of ICE owners who have gone to EV.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

2015 eGolf, over 80k km's in US which has a higher impact on battery due to very high and low weather temps....person done test on battery when it first arrived, then after 80k km's...still reporting the same capacity.....


The eGolf/Ioniq etc are using different batteries to those in Nissan so the degradation is minimal in comparison

I'm not sure why you mention a car 3 years old in reference to one 7.5 to 8 years old. I'm sure a nearly new car is perfectly fine, but that is not what most peolpe afford.

Water John

We do not have to go back to the stone age to reduce GHG and pollution. We convert as many aspects of the economy to electric energy as possible. This is then produced with as little environmental impact as possible. Sources can be from a number of sources, renewable and more modern forms of nuclear are the most likely. a traditional nuclear plant is too large for the country and will also take too long to develop, even if there was a will to do it.
Diesel for domestic transport is on the way out. I think anyone buying a new diesel car ATM is nuts. Resale value will be rock bottom.

ELM327

A lot of this would be solved with a shift to nuclear too.

elperello

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm doing all that, and commuting 120km per day to boot.
Is my opinion not valid, because it doesn't align with yours?


A used EV is a better option than a used fossil fuel car in a lot of scenarios - not for everyone of course - but I know very few EV owners who have gone back to ICE.... and lots of ICE owners who have gone to EV.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I have been at pains to be polite in my contributions to this thread.

I'm just making the case for a lot of people out there who can't afford any sort of new or even fairly fresh second hand car. They are depending on the pickings at the middle to lower sector of the market. I see no sense in making their life even more difficult.

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I have been at pains to be polite in my contributions to this thread.

I'm just making the case for a lot of people out there who can't afford any sort of new or even fairly fresh second hand car. They are depending on the pickings at the middle to lower sector of the market. I see no sense in making their life even more difficult.

I think everyone is having a decent conversation, not sure why you reference been polite.....

The figures in the market would say you are incorrect. At the moment we are importing more second hand diesel cars than ever from the UK. These are not bangers either. Audi, BMW, VW's etc......


Yes some people cannot afford newer second hand cars but take a look at the road in Dublin. The boom is back and the rate of new cars is back to Celtic tiger rate.....


So the people that cant afford new cars seem to be in the minority......of course I stand to be corrected....

So if I can figure that out I am sure the government can pull the recent VRT numbers and tell you exaclty how many diesels have been imported in last 48 months.

CJhaughey

Dublin is not all of Ireland.
I do see a lot of newer cars in the cities where wealth seems to be concentrated but in many areas of the country most cars are far from new, mid 2000s seems to be what most are driving in rural areas.

Shefwedfan

CJhaughey wrote: »

Dublin is not all of Ireland.
I do see a lot of newer cars in the cities where wealth seems to be concentrated but in many areas of the country most cars are far from new, mid 2000s seems to be what most are driving in rural areas.

I didn't say Dublin was all of Ireland

CJhaughey

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I didn't say Dublin was all of Ireland

Correct what you said was:

Shefwedfan wrote: »

take a look at the road in Dublin. The boom is back and the rate of new cars is back to Celtic tiger rate.....

I'm saying that the supposed boom is not back in most of the country outside the pale.

elperello

The carrot and stick approach is based on the idiom of a recalcitrant animal (ass, horse, mule) who will not go forward. You either offer him a carrot or beat him with a stick to get him to move.

The car owners I am speaking for have nowhere to move to.
They can't afford new cars or modern second hand cars.

Increasing their running costs will just milk money from their already stretched budgets.

Water John

I think we can all agree that an increase in carbon tax is a lazy response. Why piss off people when you want them to buy into longer term change.

Shefwedfan

Water John wrote: »

I think we can all agree that an increase in carbon tax is a lazy response. Why piss off people when you want them to buy into longer term change.

So what is the answer?

elperello

I'd start by equaliseing the pump price of petrol and diesel.
Reduce petrol by 1c and increase diesel by 1c each year for 5 years when they would be the same and then increase diesel by 1c a year after that.

You could also increase the price of new and imported diesels in annual increments by adjusting VRT rates. No need to go for a big bang approach. Softly softly etc.

Given the field life of a modern car we can't afford to scrap usable vehicles.

I think that as EV range increases and the infrastructure improves a lot of people will be glad to see the back of the diesels that they only bought because of misguided government policies.

Water John

At least that's a plan. that is what is needed. A transparent plan that the public can buy into. But it has to go that direction, phase out domestic diesel first. Same goes for space heating.

vectra

elperello wrote: »

I'd start by equaliseing the pump price of petrol and diesel.
Reduce petrol by 1c and increase diesel by 1c each year for 5 years when they would be the same and then increase diesel by 1c a year after that.

You could also increase the price of new and imported diesels in annual increments by adjusting VRT rates. No need to go for a big bang approach. Softly softly etc.

Given the field life of a modern car we can't afford to scrap usable vehicles.

I think that as EV range increases and the infrastructure improves a lot of people will be glad to see the back of the diesels that they only bought because of misguided government policies.

And how exactly would that make long range Decent Electric cars more affordable?

Nickindublin

vectra wrote: »

And how exactly would that make long range Decent Electric cars more affordable?

Electric vehicles will become more affordable when more people take them up. Ireland is a tiny market. When they are mass produced for the bigger economies prices will decrease. By the end of the next decade you will see the change. Look how diesel became so popular so quickly.

vectra

Nickindublin wrote: »

Electric vehicles will become more affordable when more people take them up. Ireland is a tiny market. When they are mass produced for the bigger economies prices will decrease. By the end of the next decade you will see the change. Look how diesel became so popular so quickly.

How can more people take them up when they are too bloody expensive?
This is exactly my point.

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

I'd start by equaliseing the pump price of petrol and diesel.
Reduce petrol by 1c and increase diesel by 1c each year for 5 years when they would be the same and then increase diesel by 1c a year after that.

You could also increase the price of new and imported diesels in annual increments by adjusting VRT rates. No need to go for a big bang approach. Softly softly etc.

Given the field life of a modern car we can't afford to scrap usable vehicles.

I think that as EV range increases and the infrastructure improves a lot of people will be glad to see the back of the diesels that they only bought because of misguided government policies.

Your plan makes no sense



You do realize in 2020 Ireland will be hit with huge fines...By your softly softly approach in 2030 we will be no further on than we are today.

It will take over 5 years to get diesel/petrol at an equivalent price bracket? so not actually do anything for 5 years about Ireland CO2 problems?

EV range for majority of drivers in Dublin/Cork/Limerick is perfect. A Ioniq and Leaf 2 will do over 200km per charge. Most people in Dublin do less than 60km in a commute. So why is range an issue? Kona/Niro which are coming out are close to 500km. Thats Belfast to Dublin.

I don't care outside Dublin to be honest.....high population areas are the easiest to target


In 5 years time Ireland will be flooded with old petrol/diesels from England and Ireland will have a bigger issue. 7 years now the government have tried to move people off diesel/petrol. So the softly softly approach hasn't really worked. Big bang seems to be the answer.


Have you really not noticed for the last few years all the news/press articles about every other country banning diesel? london have a congestion charge for how many years now?????

Shefwedfan

vectra wrote: »

How can more people take them up when they are too bloody expensive?
This is exactly my point.

What price are they?

zilog_jones

vectra wrote: »

How can more people take them up when they are too bloody expensive?
This is exactly my point.

They're talking about economies of scale.

_Brian

Shefwedfan wrote: »

7 years now the government have tried to move people off diesel/petrol. So the softly softly approach hasn't really worked. Big bang seems to be the answer.

7 years !!, no way
The government are doing nothing more than token gesgures in moving people out of their cars to other modes..


Target the large urban areas with a few focused plans and things might change... congestion charges coupled with improved public transport capacity would make a proper change.



The "big bang" option you speak of just reflects failed government policy rather than public opinion.