Diesel renaissance - says VW!

_Kaiser_

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The semi-d or detached house dwellers 2-3 counties away can have home charging.

Not everyone lives in a house. Lots of apartments too. Not everyone owns, and not everyone's landlord will install external chargers and whatever for tenants.

But commuting by car 2-3 counties is not sustainable, whether it's done by EV or not. There will never be enough road space in the city to cater for them. They should be going by rail.

I love this argument... it's always made by someone who doesn't understand the current system which is a) overcrowded as is and b) only suitable for simple A-B journeys.

In my last job your idea would have meant driving to the station, getting a train to the city centre, and then a LUAS to my employer. Aside from the costs of all that, the massive time sink involved would be ridiculous.

In my current job, I'd still be getting the train, but then ANOTHER commuter train back out of Dublin because we don't do orbital routes or connections.

Or I could just drive and do both trips in about an hour each way. Want to change that? Build lots of cheap-but-decent housing and apartments in and around the M50 (still plenty of land there) and with orbital routes connecting them so not everything is routed via "An Lar"

I'm in Cork weekly and am a big fan of their Park and Ride service (which has recently been improved). For a fiver per car, you get a 15 minute service that goes into the city in about 10 minutes. The only downside is that it doesn't run on Sundays (stupid really) but aside from that it's a great idea - and this is from someone who usually drives everywhere.

My own idea is to have massive Park and Ride facilities at the N3, N4, N7 junctions with the M50 with a DART/LUAS running parallel to it stopping at each junction between the Airport and Sandyford. Feeder buses from there to the main industrial estates in Blanch, Ballymount, Sandyford etc.

All of this will never happen though, so until then the roads will still be clogged with commuters who've long been priced out of Dublin but whose jobs unfortunately haven't moved with them.

_Brian

The immediate focus should be to encourage people who don’t really need diesel or even petrol out of them and into whatever alternatives are available.

To eliminate vehicles from urban areas and their drivers onto public transport.

Develop an infrastructure where increased ev’s can be accommodated

Encourage employers to make ev charging available in decent numbers.

There is an awful lot that should happen before massing huge tax onto people who really need diesel to push them into financial oblivion.

Yes the country faces huge fines, but there aren’t the responsibility of diesel drivers and making them pay for failure of government policy is unfair in the extreme.

Hotblack Desiato

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Want to change that? Build lots of cheap-but-decent housing and apartments in and around the M50 (still plenty of land there)

I posted on another thread that every golf course in Dublin should be ploughed up for high density housing ridiculous waste of land.

and with orbital routes connecting them so not everything is routed via "An Lar"

Sounds like Bus Connects. Which every gobshyte local councillor seems to have made it their mission in life to destroy.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Which car can you not afford?
in 7 years my car will be coming up on 8.5 years old.
The 8.5 year old EVs on the market now are at approx 5k-6k, and that's only because of scarcity of supply.

Maybe, but the batteries are done and the range is poverty

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, but the batteries are done and the range is poverty

On the current 8 year old EVs that is true.
Well the batteries are never "done" but the range would be crap due to advances in LI-Ion since 2010-11.


Current range of EVs will not degrade in the same manner. My Ioniq for instance due to the superior BMS will not degrade anything like the first gen. Indeed, some first gen Zoe owners are reporting 1-2% degradation after 100k+ on the clock

Shefwedfan

_Brian wrote: »

The immediate focus should be to encourage people who don’t really need diesel or even petrol out of them and into whatever alternatives are available.

To eliminate vehicles from urban areas and their drivers onto public transport.

Develop an infrastructure where increased ev’s can be accommodated

Encourage employers to make ev charging available in decent numbers.

There is an awful lot that should happen before massing huge tax onto people who really need diesel to push them into financial oblivion.

Yes the country faces huge fines, but there aren’t the responsibility of diesel drivers and making them pay for failure of government policy is unfair in the extreme.

All of these are valid points.

The only issue is the government will say they have tried to do this for the last 7 years and the uptake of electric cars is tiny...purchase grant, free charging, 0% BIK, taxi grant, free home installation followed by grant for charger, tax reductions for employers to install charge points, low road tax, 500 off tolls, all incentives in place for people to move to alternatives and the general public still buy diesel by the bucket load



So after trying for 7 years with the carrot now it is time to hit them with a stick...


You might disagree, I might disagree but do I expect them to continue with the carrot? No....expect a big stick coming in your direction very very soon.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All of these are valid points.

The only issue is the government will say they have tried to do this for the last 7 years and the uptake of electric cars is tiny...purchase grant, free charging, 0% BIK, taxi grant, free home installation followed by grant for charger, tax reductions for employers to install charge points, low road tax, 500 off tolls, all incentives in place for people to move to alternatives and the general public still buy diesel by the bucket load



So after trying for 7 years with the carrot now it is time to hit them with a stick...


You might disagree, I might disagree but do I expect them to continue with the carrot? No....expect a big stick coming in your direction very very soon.

Agree. 7 years of various carrots have not worked.
How many more years of carrots can you realistically expect before the stick?

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, but the batteries are done and the range is poverty

2015 eGolf, over 80k km's in US which has a higher impact on battery due to very high and low weather temps....person done test on battery when it first arrived, then after 80k km's...still reporting the same capacity.....


The eGolf/Ioniq etc are using different batteries to those in Nissan so the degradation is minimal in comparison

elperello

There is a large cohort of car owners out there who cannot afford an electric or indeed any new car.

They are in most cases the people who are keeping the country going. They commute to work, pay taxes, pay mortgages and try to do the best for their families.

I hope this Government won't make the mistake that the FF/Green government made by disrupting the second hand market.

I think a clear strategy should be announced to effect change over time.

When the technology and infrastructure graphs align with the availability and affordability graphs the change will come.

There is no need to impose hardship on an already stretched sector.

ELM327

elperello wrote: »

There is a large cohort of car owners out there who cannot afford an electric or indeed any new car.

They are in most cases the people who are keeping the country going. They commute to work, pay taxes, pay mortgages and try to do the best for their families.

I hope this Government won't make the mistake that the FF/Green government made by disrupting the second hand market.

I think a clear strategy should be announced to effect change over time.

When the technology and infrastructure graphs align with the availability and affordability graphs the change will come.

There is no need to impose hardship on an already stretched sector.

I'm doing all that, and commuting 120km per day to boot.
Is my opinion not valid, because it doesn't align with yours?


A used EV is a better option than a used fossil fuel car in a lot of scenarios - not for everyone of course - but I know very few EV owners who have gone back to ICE.... and lots of ICE owners who have gone to EV.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

2015 eGolf, over 80k km's in US which has a higher impact on battery due to very high and low weather temps....person done test on battery when it first arrived, then after 80k km's...still reporting the same capacity.....


The eGolf/Ioniq etc are using different batteries to those in Nissan so the degradation is minimal in comparison

I'm not sure why you mention a car 3 years old in reference to one 7.5 to 8 years old. I'm sure a nearly new car is perfectly fine, but that is not what most peolpe afford.

Water John

We do not have to go back to the stone age to reduce GHG and pollution. We convert as many aspects of the economy to electric energy as possible. This is then produced with as little environmental impact as possible. Sources can be from a number of sources, renewable and more modern forms of nuclear are the most likely. a traditional nuclear plant is too large for the country and will also take too long to develop, even if there was a will to do it.
Diesel for domestic transport is on the way out. I think anyone buying a new diesel car ATM is nuts. Resale value will be rock bottom.

ELM327

A lot of this would be solved with a shift to nuclear too.

elperello

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm doing all that, and commuting 120km per day to boot.
Is my opinion not valid, because it doesn't align with yours?


A used EV is a better option than a used fossil fuel car in a lot of scenarios - not for everyone of course - but I know very few EV owners who have gone back to ICE.... and lots of ICE owners who have gone to EV.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I have been at pains to be polite in my contributions to this thread.

I'm just making the case for a lot of people out there who can't afford any sort of new or even fairly fresh second hand car. They are depending on the pickings at the middle to lower sector of the market. I see no sense in making their life even more difficult.

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I have been at pains to be polite in my contributions to this thread.

I'm just making the case for a lot of people out there who can't afford any sort of new or even fairly fresh second hand car. They are depending on the pickings at the middle to lower sector of the market. I see no sense in making their life even more difficult.

I think everyone is having a decent conversation, not sure why you reference been polite.....

The figures in the market would say you are incorrect. At the moment we are importing more second hand diesel cars than ever from the UK. These are not bangers either. Audi, BMW, VW's etc......


Yes some people cannot afford newer second hand cars but take a look at the road in Dublin. The boom is back and the rate of new cars is back to Celtic tiger rate.....


So the people that cant afford new cars seem to be in the minority......of course I stand to be corrected....

So if I can figure that out I am sure the government can pull the recent VRT numbers and tell you exaclty how many diesels have been imported in last 48 months.

CJhaughey

Dublin is not all of Ireland.
I do see a lot of newer cars in the cities where wealth seems to be concentrated but in many areas of the country most cars are far from new, mid 2000s seems to be what most are driving in rural areas.

Shefwedfan

CJhaughey wrote: »

Dublin is not all of Ireland.
I do see a lot of newer cars in the cities where wealth seems to be concentrated but in many areas of the country most cars are far from new, mid 2000s seems to be what most are driving in rural areas.

I didn't say Dublin was all of Ireland

CJhaughey

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I didn't say Dublin was all of Ireland

Correct what you said was:

Shefwedfan wrote: »

take a look at the road in Dublin. The boom is back and the rate of new cars is back to Celtic tiger rate.....

I'm saying that the supposed boom is not back in most of the country outside the pale.

elperello

The carrot and stick approach is based on the idiom of a recalcitrant animal (ass, horse, mule) who will not go forward. You either offer him a carrot or beat him with a stick to get him to move.

The car owners I am speaking for have nowhere to move to.
They can't afford new cars or modern second hand cars.

Increasing their running costs will just milk money from their already stretched budgets.

Water John

I think we can all agree that an increase in carbon tax is a lazy response. Why piss off people when you want them to buy into longer term change.

Shefwedfan

Water John wrote: »

I think we can all agree that an increase in carbon tax is a lazy response. Why piss off people when you want them to buy into longer term change.

So what is the answer?

elperello

I'd start by equaliseing the pump price of petrol and diesel.
Reduce petrol by 1c and increase diesel by 1c each year for 5 years when they would be the same and then increase diesel by 1c a year after that.

You could also increase the price of new and imported diesels in annual increments by adjusting VRT rates. No need to go for a big bang approach. Softly softly etc.

Given the field life of a modern car we can't afford to scrap usable vehicles.

I think that as EV range increases and the infrastructure improves a lot of people will be glad to see the back of the diesels that they only bought because of misguided government policies.

Water John

At least that's a plan. that is what is needed. A transparent plan that the public can buy into. But it has to go that direction, phase out domestic diesel first. Same goes for space heating.

vectra

elperello wrote: »

I'd start by equaliseing the pump price of petrol and diesel.
Reduce petrol by 1c and increase diesel by 1c each year for 5 years when they would be the same and then increase diesel by 1c a year after that.

You could also increase the price of new and imported diesels in annual increments by adjusting VRT rates. No need to go for a big bang approach. Softly softly etc.

Given the field life of a modern car we can't afford to scrap usable vehicles.

I think that as EV range increases and the infrastructure improves a lot of people will be glad to see the back of the diesels that they only bought because of misguided government policies.

And how exactly would that make long range Decent Electric cars more affordable?

Nickindublin

vectra wrote: »

And how exactly would that make long range Decent Electric cars more affordable?

Electric vehicles will become more affordable when more people take them up. Ireland is a tiny market. When they are mass produced for the bigger economies prices will decrease. By the end of the next decade you will see the change. Look how diesel became so popular so quickly.

vectra

Nickindublin wrote: »

Electric vehicles will become more affordable when more people take them up. Ireland is a tiny market. When they are mass produced for the bigger economies prices will decrease. By the end of the next decade you will see the change. Look how diesel became so popular so quickly.

How can more people take them up when they are too bloody expensive?
This is exactly my point.

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

I'd start by equaliseing the pump price of petrol and diesel.
Reduce petrol by 1c and increase diesel by 1c each year for 5 years when they would be the same and then increase diesel by 1c a year after that.

You could also increase the price of new and imported diesels in annual increments by adjusting VRT rates. No need to go for a big bang approach. Softly softly etc.

Given the field life of a modern car we can't afford to scrap usable vehicles.

I think that as EV range increases and the infrastructure improves a lot of people will be glad to see the back of the diesels that they only bought because of misguided government policies.

Your plan makes no sense



You do realize in 2020 Ireland will be hit with huge fines...By your softly softly approach in 2030 we will be no further on than we are today.

It will take over 5 years to get diesel/petrol at an equivalent price bracket? so not actually do anything for 5 years about Ireland CO2 problems?

EV range for majority of drivers in Dublin/Cork/Limerick is perfect. A Ioniq and Leaf 2 will do over 200km per charge. Most people in Dublin do less than 60km in a commute. So why is range an issue? Kona/Niro which are coming out are close to 500km. Thats Belfast to Dublin.

I don't care outside Dublin to be honest.....high population areas are the easiest to target


In 5 years time Ireland will be flooded with old petrol/diesels from England and Ireland will have a bigger issue. 7 years now the government have tried to move people off diesel/petrol. So the softly softly approach hasn't really worked. Big bang seems to be the answer.


Have you really not noticed for the last few years all the news/press articles about every other country banning diesel? london have a congestion charge for how many years now?????

Shefwedfan

vectra wrote: »

How can more people take them up when they are too bloody expensive?
This is exactly my point.

What price are they?

zilog_jones

vectra wrote: »

How can more people take them up when they are too bloody expensive?
This is exactly my point.

They're talking about economies of scale.

_Brian

Shefwedfan wrote: »

7 years now the government have tried to move people off diesel/petrol. So the softly softly approach hasn't really worked. Big bang seems to be the answer.

7 years !!, no way
The government are doing nothing more than token gesgures in moving people out of their cars to other modes..


Target the large urban areas with a few focused plans and things might change... congestion charges coupled with improved public transport capacity would make a proper change.



The "big bang" option you speak of just reflects failed government policy rather than public opinion.