Directors and staff won prizes in 30% of credit union draws

i71jskz5xu42pb

(This is a consumer issue, not my consumer issue though, feel free to move is there's a better home)

Amazing report from the Central Bank on Credit Unions stating that "roughly 30 per cent of those that operated prize draws, staff and directors were the winners of those prizes."

Anybody who has ever glanced at the Terms and Conditions of a Prize Draw will usually see something to the effect of "employees, directors & their families not eligible". Different rules for the credit Union it seems.

Add to that, it looks like account holders may have been entered to car draws without their knowing and records of previous winners are not being maintained.

I love the idea of Credit Unions but you'd have to worry about the kinds of people that are running them if this is the carry on they get up to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/directors-and-staff-won-prizes-in-30-of-credit-union-draws-1.3419808

Wheety

Was there staff winning prizes in 30% of Credit Unions? Or as The Mirror worded it staff won 30% of the cars?

Almost a third of car raffles organised by credit unions across Ireland were won by staff and directors, a damning new report has revealed.

The Central Bank dossier reveals 30% of new motors given away went to employees - with the remainder won by some of the 446,000 members who entered the draws.

Slight difference in wording but massive difference in meaning.

i71jskz5xu42pb

From the horse's mouth (pg 6 of the report)

In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws staff and directors have won prizes over the period October 2014 to March 2017

So the Times has it right.

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/Regulation/industry-market-sectors/credit-unions/communications/reports/prize-draws-in-credit-unions-thematic-review-findings-march-2018.pdf

amcalester

But what were the prizes?

Big difference between member A winning a car and member B (who is also an employee) winning a €50 voucher to the local spa.

Or vice versa, obviously it should be looked into (and would make sense to exclude employees/directors fro draws) but are the frequency of these wins in line with general expected results.

Riskymove

The last raffle I was at was very interesting.....(see attached)

i71jskz5xu42pb

amcalester wrote: »

But what were the prizes?

Big difference between member A winning a car and member B (who is also an employee) winning a €50 voucher to the local spa.

Or vice versa, obviously it should be looked into (and would make sense to exclude employees/directors fro draws) but are the frequency of these wins in line with general expected results.

My view is that none of that matters. Once you allow employees & directors (the people who are running the draws) enter the draws you're done. You've done two things:

1. Left yourself open for the accusation that the draw was rigged no matter how scrupulous you might be
2. Put employees in the position where there is an incentive to rig the vote - for themselves or a friend

I hear what you are saying this might just be €50 voucher in many cases. But it's a slippery slope and indicative of poor management. And if they can't manage a simple prize draw well how would anybody expect them to manage large deposits.

amcalester

Leyla Old-fashioned Face wrote: »

My view is that none of that matters. Once you allow employees & directors (the people who are running the draws) enter the draws you're done. You've done two things:

1. Left yourself open for the accusation that the draw was rigged no matter how scrupulous you might be
2. Put employees in the position where there is an incentive to rig the vote - for themselves or a friend

I hear what you are saying this might just be €50 voucher in many cases. But it's a slippery slope and indicative of poor management. And if they can't manage a simple prize draw well how would anybody expect them to manage large deposits.

Oh I completely agree, very foolish of them to allow this happen.

At best it shows poor foresight and awareness and at worst... well no need to go there.

Buer

amcalester wrote: »

But what were the prizes?

Big difference between member A winning a car and member B (who is also an employee) winning a €50 voucher to the local spa.

Or vice versa, obviously it should be looked into (and would make sense to exclude employees/directors fro draws) but are the frequency of these wins in line with general expected results.

There was €40m in prizes in the 30 month period so I think it's safe to assume that a good number of them were significantly more than €50.

cbreeze

I was at my local credit union agm a few years ago and an employee's name was pulled out of the hat at the meeting and the car was won. It would have been difficult to rig this in public.

meep

cbreeze wrote: »

I was at my local credit union agm a few years ago and an employee's name was pulled out of the hat at the meeting and the car was won. It would have been difficult to rig this in public.

Except the employees name should not have been in there in the first place.

I worked in an agency a few years ago that was organising a competiton for a client. By genuine co-incidence, the prize was won by the granny of the exec. who was running the account. He had to break the news to her that she couldn't have the prize.

Birdie Num Num

Leyla Old-fashioned Face wrote: »

(This is a consumer issue, not my consumer issue though, feel free to move is there's a better home)

Amazing report from the Central Bank on Credit Unions stating that "roughly 30 per cent of those that operated prize draws, staff and directors were the winners of those prizes."

Anybody who has ever glanced at the Terms and Conditions of a Prize Draw will usually see something to the effect of "employees, directors & their families not eligible". Different rules for the credit Union it seems.

Add to that, it looks like account holders may have been entered to car draws without their knowing and records of previous winners are not being maintained.

I love the idea of Credit Unions but you'd have to worry about the kinds of people that are running them if this is the carry on they get up to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/directors-and-staff-won-prizes-in-30-of-credit-union-draws-1.3419808

I've yet to read the article but I heard a news report on the radio this morning. These news items on Credit Unions come out on an almost quarterly basis now on morning radio. Generally slotted in at the end of the news.

What you also have to take into consideration is that the banks are no fans of the Credit Unions. They are jealous of the large member base and the reserves that the Credit Unions have. Also they do not like that a loan from the credit union is insured to the benefit of the applicant. The banks want as much stink about CUs as possible in my opinion.

minikin

Two senior staff members of our credit union won cars in recent years... very lucky!
Even though I'm sure nothing underhanded happened, it doesn't look good.
Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I've yet to read the article but ....

.... I'll venture some vague conspiracy theory about how this is the banks doing anyway.

Read the article, it'll only take 2 minutes.

emeldc

minikin wrote: »

Two senior staff members of our credit union won cars in recent years... very lucky!
Even though I'm sure nothing underhanded happened, it doesn't look good.
Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

But how are you sure. I'm beginning to think there isn't an institution or organisation left out there that isn't on the take in some way or other.

Avatar MIA

cbreeze wrote: »

I was at my local credit union agm a few years ago and an employee's name was pulled out of the hat at the meeting and the car was won. It would have been difficult to rig this in public.

You must love magic shows.

Avatar MIA

minikin wrote: »

Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

This is basic 101 in not being a gangster organisation.

But, as has been pointed out. If they do the... what else is going on. And of course lots of CU's have got into trouble. Not really surprising if this is the level of management.

schemingbohemia

Your heading for the thread implies that 30% of prizes were won by employees. Not the case, 30% of CU that ran prize draws had prizes won by employees or directors. Now, how many prizes were handed out over the 18 month period and how many prizes were won by employees or directors isn't stated. It's all clickbait and rubbish statistics presented as news.

Franz Von Peppercorn

emeldc wrote: »

But how are you sure. I'm beginning to think there isn't an institution or organisation left out there that isn't on the take in some way or other.

I think official Ireland is corrupt alright.

I was definitely entered into a car draw without permission. My credit union is down the country - where we lived until I was 13. Anyway that was set up and I added 1k when I was 20 or so. In the annual reports I am charged 16€ for the draw. I don’t really mind (or didn’t until the fraud) but I certainly didn’t agree to it.

TheIrishGrover

This morning on the 7AM news on TodayFM they said that 30% of the top prizes went to staff. NOT 30% of the prizes were won by staff. As someone else said, BIG difference. There may well have been some[/I] shennanigans going on in some of the draws but I doubt it was on a large scale.

But yeah, staff really shouldn't be allowed to enter. As for friends/family? That's a tougher one. The whole nature of the CU setup is that it's local. If you were to disallow family and friends then you are just going to have nobody entering.

i71jskz5xu42pb

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Your heading for the thread implies that 30% of prizes were won by employees. Not the case, 30% of CU that ran prize draws had prizes won by employees or directors. Now, how many prizes were handed out over the 18 month period and how many prizes were won by employees or directors isn't stated. It's all clickbait and rubbish statistics presented as news.

Not my headline, it's the Irish Times' headline. It's not well worded I'll agree but this point has already been clarified earlier in this thread.

The appropriate number of prizes to be won the employees of any organisation running a prize draw is zero. Dance around the numbers all you want, that number will always be zero.

Franz Von Peppercorn

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Your heading for the thread implies that 30% of prizes were won by employees. Not the case, 30% of CU that ran prize draws had prizes won by employees or directors. Now, how many prizes were handed out over the 18 month period and how many prizes were won by employees or directors isn't stated. It's all clickbait and rubbish statistics presented as news.

He’s quoting the IT. Your analysis is correct I think. Of course if those 30% of credit unions where directors won prizes it could have been frequent - except we don’t know because they don’t keep lists of previous winners.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Leyla Old-fashioned Face wrote: »

Not my headline, it's the Irish Times' headline. It's not well worded I'll agree but this point has already been clarified earlier in this thread.

The appropriate number of prizes to be won the employees of any organisation running a prize draw is zero. Dance around the numbers all you want, that number will always be zero.

Even pub draws exclude staff. Mostly.

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PickleJar

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, so are Directors.

Birdie Num Num

minikin wrote: »

Two senior staff members of our credit union won cars in recent years... very lucky!
Even though I'm sure nothing underhanded happened, it doesn't look good.
Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

There have been bad practises by some CUs for sure (EG Rush as per the photo in the article) and there is a vein to tarnish all with the same brush. Directors come from the member base, elected at AGMs by members. Those members do this on a voluntary basis and are on an equal footing with all other members so any member draws should be equally available to them. I can't comment on paid staff but I guess they must be members too if in a draw. The ethos of Credit Unions is sound and they are set up in the interest of communities and members and are presided over by it's members, unlike banks but yes their have been bad practices too, like banks.

It also has to be read properly as; that in 30% of CUs that run draws staff/directors have won prizes. That is not very high over a 2.5 year period. It’s not 30% of all prizes won. I would guess that most of that 30% was probably accounted for by Rush CU. Also any draw must be presided over by an independent solicitor or other.

loyatemu

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

There have been bad practises by some CUs for sure (EG Rush as per the photo in the article) and there is a vein to tarnish all with the same brush. Directors come from the member base, elected at AGMs by members. Those members do this on a voluntary basis and are on an equal footing with all other members so any member draws should be equally available to them. I can't comment on paid staff but I guess they must be members too if in a draw. The ethos of Credit Unions is sound and they are set up in the interest of communities and members and are presided over by it's members, unlike banks but yes their have been bad practices too, like banks.

It also has to be read properly as; that in 30% of CUs that run draws staff/directors have won prizes. That is not very high over a 2.5 year period. It’s not 30% of all prizes won. I would guess that most of that 30% was probably accounted for by Rush CU. Also any draw must be presided over by an independent solicitor or other.

Regardless of all that - you can't have the organisers of raffles winning the raffle; it's farcical. It's nothing to do with the banks being out to get the CUs, it's bad practise and bad management.

Birdie Num Num

loyatemu wrote: »

Regardless of all that - you can't have the organisers of raffles winning the raffle; it's farcical. It's nothing to do with the banks being out to get the CUs, it's bad practise and bad management.

It's not a raffle. It's a members draw that is available to all members that pay into that draw and it must be overseen by an independent. There were irregularities in Rush regarding draws, I don't know of any other. But the issues in Rush have been allowed to stain all CUs.

Sleeper12

I always thought the normal thing was to exclude staff and family members from draws like this

Stovepipe

it's a bit like some GAA club draws; you, as a randomer, can buy a ticket for your local draw at every pub/shop/whatever but no outsider will ever win it and you can be sure that club loyalists will be favoured by getting a seller's prize.

loyatemu

Stovepipe wrote: »

it's a bit like some GAA club draws; you, as a randomer, can buy a ticket for your local draw at every pub/shop/whatever but no outsider will ever win it and you can be sure that club loyalists will be favoured by getting a seller's prize.

do GAA clubs give away cars often? (genuine question).

also clubs, schools etc are not financial institutions - I appreciate that CUs were not originally setup to be businesses but if they're handling millions of euros then they need to be held to a higher set of standards than the local GAA club.

Birdie Num Num

loyatemu wrote: »

do GAA clubs give away cars often? (genuine question).

also clubs, schools etc are not financial institutions - I appreciate that CUs were not originally setup to be businesses but if they're handling millions of euros then they need to be held to a higher set of standards than the local GAA club.

They are.