Directors and staff won prizes in 30% of credit union draws

Wheety

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I would guess that most of that 30% was probably accounted for by Rush CU. Also any draw must be presided over by an independent solicitor or other.

Most of the 30% would not be accounted for by Rush CU as that is only one branch. It is only counted once in this stat.

Birdie Num Num

Wheety wrote: »

Most of the 30% would not be accounted for by Rush CU as that is only one branch. It is only counted once in this stat.

Still there is nothing wrong with members as directors or staff winning in a draw. There was an issue in Rush CU.

ED E

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Still there is nothing wrong with members as directors or staff winning in a draw.

You keep telling yourself that. The rest of the nation will continue to disagree.

Wheety

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Still there is nothing wrong with members as directors or staff winning in a draw. There was an issue in Rush CU.

Rush was obviously a badly run CU but the Central Bank have said staff won prizes in 30% of branches. So Rush would only count once.

Some tabloids have run with 30% of cars across all Credit Unions were won by staff.

namloc1980

I would have thought normal governance in any business meant staff/directors are excluded from any prize draws/competitions that that business runs. Can't believe the credit unions allowed this in the first place, leaves them wide open to negative publicity and possible rigging of draws.

Birdie Num Num

Wheety wrote: »

Rush was obviously a badly run CU but the Central Bank have said staff won prizes in 30% of branches. So Rush would only count once.

Some tabloids have run with 30% of cars across all Credit Unions were won by staff.

No the CB have said that staff or directors won in 30% of CUs that run draws. Now think of the amount of draws that happen in a 2.5 year period in all CUs and that CUs are owned by members, run by directors who are members and in some instances staffed by people who may or may not be members. ....And that draws MUST be presided over an independent commissioner of oaths or solicitor. In much the same way as the National Lottery.

Henry Ford III

If the staff bought c.30% of the tickets then it's quite reasonable for them to win c.30% of the prizes.

Is there an actual allegation of draw fixing?

Birdie Num Num

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If the staff bought c.30% of the tickets then it's quite reasonable for them to win c.30% of the prizes.

Is there an actual allegation of draw fixing?

Ah Jaysus. Tickets for what? Train tickets?

superman28

From a different forum,, someone smarter than me figured out the real numbers. See below.



128 (46%) of credit unions operate a prize draw

Approximately 446,000 members participate in prize draws, an increase of circa 46,000 from 2015 to 2017

Circa 85% of credit unions allow staff and directors to participate in prize draws.
In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017.

128 credit unions had draws over the period
Assuming they had monthly draws, that would be 128 x 30 months or 3,840 draws.
Staff and directors in 30% of 128 credit unions won prizes - so that would be 38 prizes in total (assuming only one win in each credit union.)

So the right summary would be c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors

All the draws are probably not monthly.
In some Credit Unions, the staff probably won more than once.
In 15% of Credit Unions, the staff were not allowed enter.

But 1% is closer to the 30% reported in the Irish Times and elsewhere.

loyatemu

superman28 wrote: »

From a different forum,, someone smarter than me figured out the real numbers. See below.



128 (46%) of credit unions operate a prize draw

Approximately 446,000 members participate in prize draws, an increase of circa 46,000 from 2015 to 2017

Circa 85% of credit unions allow staff and directors to participate in prize draws.
In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017.

128 credit unions had draws over the period
Assuming they had monthly draws, that would be 128 x 30 months or 3,840 draws.
Staff and directors in 30% of 128 credit unions won prizes - so that would be 38 prizes in total (assuming only one win in each credit union.)

So the right summary would be c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors

All the draws are probably not monthly.
In some Credit Unions, the staff probably won more than once.
In 15% of Credit Unions, the staff were not allowed enter.

But 1% is closer to the 30% reported in the Irish Times and elsewhere.

so what percentage of the 446,000 are staff and directors? People are rightly suspicious of this after what happened in Rush

draws MUST be presided over an independent commissioner of oaths or solicitor.

did that happen in Rush? If not, how do we know it's happening elsewhere. There's a simple way to fix this, and 15% of the CUs have already figured it out.

Birdie Num Num

loyatemu wrote: »

so what percentage of the 446,000 are staff and directors? People are rightly suspicious of this after what happened in Rush



did that happen in Rush? If not, how do we know it's happening elsewhere. There's a simple way to fix this, and 15% of the CUs have already figured it out.

I don't know what happened in Rush but there was obvious irregularities. There was a report done on foot of that.

There are rightly procedures and safeguards in place. The question remains for an organisation that is owned by members and run by and for it's members, should some members be excluded from a draw because they are directors or in some cases are staff? No I don't think so. That would be unfair.

The report which I haven't read in full, Under 'Operation of Prize Draws' says:
'“To avoid reputational risk, and ensure independence and impartiality, all staff and volunteers directly involved in the operation of the prize draw should be excluded from participating in the prize draw.”

CeilingFly

Sperman28 post is mathematically correct.

Still not good for staff to be allowed enter draws and you can be sure of a fr ted type scenario in some of them

Unfortunately saying less than 1% of prizes went to staff and directors who bought tickets would simply not suit the sensationalist hysterical headlines of today's media.

jk23

Number 11!! I said number 11

twowheelsonly

ED E wrote: »

You keep telling yourself that. The rest of the nation will continue to disagree.

Depends on where they get their news from !!

Superman28s' post would be more along my line of thinking as well.

Not all CU members participate in these draws but in all likelihood most staff members and directors do. I'd imagine that some branches have a very low takeup of participants. Many people just stick their money in the CU and have no more involvement, others get actively involved and go on to work for them or even become Directors. These people are more likely to take part in the draws etc and hence.......

I'd say if the figure of winning employees and directors even comes within a whisper of 5% in total then it's a lot but I doubt that it's even that high.

As an aside... I am a member of a CU but a 'non-active' member and have no relation to or doubt that I even know anyone working in one. Personally though I have no problem with these people entering the draw.

CeilingFly

loyatemu wrote: »

so what percentage of the 446,000 are staff and directors? People are rightly suspicious of this after what happened in Rush



did that happen in Rush? If not, how do we know it's happening elsewhere. There's a simple way to fix this, and 15% of the CUs have already figured it out.

There are 4,000 staff and directors and almost 10,000 volunteers.

Rush was a mess - mainly caused by giving loans out like confetti at a wedding with little or no credit checks

Johngoose

They’ll have no luck for it, have they not seen the Fr. Ted episode?

Orchids

All cu directors & board members are volunteers, surely they should be allowed enter the draw, if they're members & not getting paid, seems a bit unfair to exclude them? Exclude staff maybe but not volunteers

Avatar MIA

Orchids wrote: »

All cu directors & board members are volunteers, surely they should be allowed enter the draw, if they're members & not getting paid, seems a bit unfair to exclude them? Exclude staff maybe but not volunteers

It's not just about being fair, but being seen to be fair. The vast majority of the members of a CU are normal members with zero influence over the running of the CU and should be able to believe there is no bias.

Do such draws get rigged - it seems they do. A CU has an obligation to be as transparent as possible, therefore NO insider should be eligible.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

gjim

Why are CUs running car raffles at all? Isn’t part of the credit union vision to educate members about personal finance and how to manage personal finances responsibly? It’s difficult to think of a worse way of doing this than promoting the purchase of raffle or lottery tickets.

I suppose credit unions running blackjack and roulette tables or slot machines would be worse but they’re just different forms of gambling. I simply don’t see any justification for credit unions to be involved in offering any type of gambling related products at all.

They should stick to their mandate of providing community based finance and support and financial education to their members.

brightspark

gjim wrote: »

Why are CUs running car raffles at all? Isn’t part of the credit union vision to educate members about personal finance and how to manage personal finances responsibly? It’s difficult to think of a worse way of doing this than promoting the purchase of raffle or lottery tickets.

I suppose credit unions running blackjack and roulette tables or slot machines would be worse but they’re just different forms of gambling. I simply don’t see any justification for credit unions to be involved in offering any type of gambling related products at all.

They should stick to their mandate of providing community based finance and support and financial education to their members.

I agree fully with you and when my local credit union introduced the draw I let one of the directors at the time know.

Our draw is €40 a year!

Avatar MIA

brightspark wrote: »

I agree fully with you and when my local credit union introduced the draw I let one of the directors at the time know.

Our draw is €40 a year!

Do you know if any of the staff have won any of the bigger prizes?

brightspark

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Do you know if any of the staff have won any of the bigger prizes?

They aren't allowed to enter it, not sure if that was always the rule though.

coylemj

I always wondered why my CU was bombarding Facebook with details of their next draw. If (as you'd expect) the draws are self-financing then why push it so hard? Think I have my answer now.

CeilingFly

coylemj wrote: »

I always wondered why my CU was bombarding Facebook with details of their next draw. If (as you'd expect) the draws are self-financing then why push it so hard? Think I have my answer now.

before jumping to conclusions ask them if staff are permitted to enter and also ask for a list of winners of prizes with a value over €1,000.

And of course they are self financing just like most lotteries and draws - there'd be no point otherwise. Once a certain level of sales are achieved, they become profitable - so they push sales in order to ensure the draws run on a profit. Absolutely nothing wrong with that

fin12

Is it still a good idea to continue entering into these car draws? I’m set up with one in my Credit Union. And it costs 2 euro something a month. If it’s fixed I would prefer to cancel this.

Avatar MIA

fin12 wrote: »

Is it still a good idea to continue entering into these car draws? I’m set up with one in my Credit Union. And it costs 2 euro something a month. If it’s fixed I would prefer to cancel this.

As suggested above, ask who one the main prizes for the last five years. Could well be fine.

fin12

Avatar MIA wrote: »

As suggested above, ask who one the main prizes for the last five years. Could well be fine.

Well they publish a list but I’m with an employer credit union so you have people from every county in the country are members. How can you tell they are not staff or directors?

gjim

CeilingFly wrote: »

Once a certain level of sales are achieved, they become profitable - so they push sales in order to ensure the draws run on a profit. Absolutely nothing wrong with that

Of course there’s something wrong with it. CUs should not be making money from running and promoting lotteries. It’s the height of hypocrisy - their mandate is to encourage a responsible approach to personal finances. It would make about as much sense as the Rape Crisis Center running an escort service to generate income. If 85% of credit unions are at it, then there’s a strong case to made that the movement as a whole has lost its way and forgotten what they’re supposed to be doing.

Avatar MIA

fin12 wrote: »

Well they publish a list but I’m with an employer credit union so you have people from every county in the country are members. How can you tell they are not staff or directors?

I would think there are two types of credit unions. Ones like the Teachers credit union or RTE's credit union. They'd (you'd think) run as part of the organisation and would have robust rules.

Others, like community CU's I would think (no hard evidence) that would be more fluid as to how they operated.