Is Veganism the natural way.

Johnnycanyon

I have been a vegetarian most of my life and recently I have been slowly but surely converting over to Veganism..Every vegan forum I visit including here harp on about the importance of B12 and rightly so.. But as it only comes from animal sources I started wondering if we are really designed for an animal based diet or even the vegetarian diet.. Remember the old saying if God meant us to smoke he would have put a chimney on our heads.
Don't get me wrong I like the idea of Veganism but if I fail on it I will always be vegetarian..So basically just looking for peoples point of view on my thoughts,!

Tar.Aldarion

Hi, B12 comes from bacteria originally, not from animals per se, bacteria in the gut produces it. It used to be humans would get it from eating dirty veg and from animals. These days veg are too clean and often animals are farmed too intensively such that they won't have B12. Animals and foods are then fortified with B12, especially any animal in factory farms. Not only that but a large percentage of populations have insufficient B12, meat or not.

Don't fall into the trap that something being natural is good, that is called "appeal to nature" if you care to read more about it. An example is that the Institute of medicine has stated that for all those 50 or older they should get their B12 from supplements/fortified foods as a lot of them can't absorb enough no matter what they eat, but they can from supplements. 10%-30% of older adults also get complications where they have to supplement with far more than the recommended amount to get enough. If nature was King then this wouldn't be the case. All nature is is people surviving and reproducing, it's not a perfect system or design. In fact we are not designed at all, we have random mutations that aided us and were passed on through different generations if they aided in survival for long enough to have children. I wouldn't worry about things being natural, humans do very "unnatural" things compared to other animals and it benefits us greatly.

Johnnycanyon

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Hi, B12 comes from bacteria originally, not from animals per se, bacteria in the gut produces it. It used to be humans would get it from eating dirty veg and from animals. These days veg are too clean and often animals are farmed too intensively such that they won't have B12. Animals and foods are then fortified with B12, especially any animal in factory farms. Not only that but a large percentage of populations have insufficient B12, meat or not.

Don't fall into the trap that something being natural is good, that is called "appeal to nature" if you care to read more about it. An example is that the Institute of medicine has stated that for all those 50 or older they should get their B12 from supplements/fortified foods as a lot of them can't absorb enough no matter what they eat, but they can from supplements. 10%-30% of older adults also get complications where they have to supplement with far more than the recommended amount to get enough. If nature was King then this wouldn't be the case. All nature is is people surviving and reproducing, it's not a perfect system or design. In fact we are not designed at all, we have random mutations that aided us and were passed on through different generations if they aided in survival for long enough to have children. I wouldn't worry about things being natural, humans do very "unnatural" things compared to other animals and it benefits us greatly.

Well thank you very much for that information,very interesting indeed. I do take Tesco vit b complex which has 100 % of the daily recommend intake and recently had blood test and B12 levels were good. I have seen B12 pills with 10000% of daily allowance which seems Ott, can be confusing at times.Anyway thank you for your information.

Tar.Aldarion

B12 is water soluble which means that if you take in too much most of it will be urinated out, so it's quite hard to get too much of it. Some people take a tablet every few days instead of one every day and the strong ones work well for them. No problem, good luck with it. Blood tests are a good idea for everybody to make sure they are ok.

beefburrito

Johnnycanyon wrote: »

I have been a vegetarian most of my life and recently I have been slowly but surely converting over to Veganism..Every vegan forum I visit including here harp on about the importance of B12 and rightly so.. But as it only comes from animal sources I started wondering if we are really designed for an animal based diet or even the vegetarian diet.. Remember the old saying if God meant us to smoke he would have put a chimney on our heads.
Don't get me wrong I like the idea of Veganism but if I fail on it I will always be vegetarian..So basically just looking for peoples point of view on my thoughts,!

If god wanted us to fly would he have given us wings ???

henryporter

beefburrito wrote: »

If god wanted us to fly would he have given us wings ???

Didn’t you get the memo? There is no god - just us and all the other animals.

weisses

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

B12 is water soluble which means that if you take in too much most of it will be urinated out, so it's quite hard to get too much of it. Some people take a tablet every few days instead of one every day and the strong ones work well for them. No problem, good luck with it. Blood tests are a good idea for everybody to make sure they are ok.

That is a partly incorrect statement .. Our bodies store greater amounts of vitamin B12 than they do for any other vitamins.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002403.htm

http://www.b12-vitamin.com/body-store/

And in regards to blood tests

A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is methylmalonic acid (MMA) testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans.

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

tayto lover

I don't know or care if it's the natural way but I play golf in all weathers and I also do a bit of hill walking. Afterwards I want a good meal with plenty of meat, not a bowl of berries, to sustain me.

Tar.Aldarion

The body does store B12 which is why deficiency takes a long time to occur, however the statement is correct, a high dose will be urinated out for the most part. It takes a long sustained amount of huge amounts of B12 to get to too high levels.

Blood tests are not the best test for B12 but they are still the global standard, more accurate tests are only carried out if there is thought to be a need for them, symptoms, not supplementing etc. Has anybody asked for a different test than the standard?

endacl

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know or care if it's the natural way but I play golf in all weathers and I also do a bit of hill walking. Afterwards I want a good meal with plenty of meat, not a bowl of berries, to sustain me.

Not a bag of tayto?

weisses

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know or care if it's the natural way but I play golf in all weathers and I also do a bit of hill walking. Afterwards I want a good meal with plenty of meat, not a bowl of berries, to sustain me.

Yeah ...go for it, If that is what makes you happy, why not

weisses

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

The body does store B12 which is why deficiency takes a long time to occur, however the statement is correct, a high dose will be urinated out for the most part. It takes a long sustained amount of huge amounts of B12 to get to too high levels.

To me your post looked like the workings of vitamine C ... The fact the body can perfectly store b12 wasnt highlighted

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Blood tests are not the best test for B12 but they are still the global standard, more accurate tests are only carried out if there is thought to be a need for them, symptoms, not supplementing etc. Has anybody asked for a different test than the standard?

Your statement saying

Blood tests are a good idea for everybody to make sure they are ok

Was incorrect in regards to b12 ..(which is what is discussed)

Tar.Aldarion

weisses wrote: »

To me your post looked like the workings of vitamine C ... The fact the body can perfectly store b12 wasnt highlighted



Your statement saying



Was incorrect in regards to b12 ..(which is what is discussed)

Why would I need to highlight that? I'm not talking about that, they are not asking about that. If somebody get's too much it is mostly urinated, as I said. There are a million facets of B12 you can talk about if you wanted.



The global standard in the medical profession for initial testing of B12 via blood tests is good enough, yes. There are better tests and there are better tests for everything over a standard blood test. There is a difference between gold standard and good enough for screening. A test is also accompanied by an interview with a doctor for this purpose.

Also blood tests being a good idea for people and being bad for B12 are not mutually inclusive, so again, that statement is correct.

Grateful Dread

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know or care if it's the natural way but I play golf in all weathers and I also do a bit of hill walking. Afterwards I want a good meal with plenty of meat, not a bowl of berries, to sustain me.

I love how people waltz into this forum to tell pepole they eat meat.

Also, I'm sure vegans and vegetarians eat more than berries. :rolleyes:

I some vegan/veggie meals and they're anyting but bland, when you can cook!

Johnnycanyon

Grateful Dread wrote: »

I love how people waltz into this forum to tell pepole they eat meat.

Also, I'm sure vegans and vegetarians eat more than berries. :rolleyes:

I some vegan/veggie meals and they're anyting but bland, when you can cook!

Agree with you 100% , most of my family are meat eaters but love to have veggie meals from time to time..As far as needing a good meat meal after a game of golf ( a so call sport which was once famously referred to as "just a step above cigar smoking") I don't know what to say.. I play squash regularly, go mountain and road cycling, and run and all on a vegetarian diet, and have done so all my life.