Guns don't kill people, video games do...

gizmo

Robert ninja wrote: »

Exactly. I don't think you even need to read any article to know that. I mean what exactly did people think was going to happen? I dunno what's more ridiculous, thinking that they were going to do something like hurt video games globally or that the US would under any circumstance consciously put themselves at a business disadvantage by limiting games or increasing taxes on the games industry, with absolutely nothing to gain from it.

What I generally find interesting about these meetings is learning what groups like the Media Research Center and Parents Television Council who were in attendance actually want. Back in the 80s, for instance, the Parents Music Resource Center pushed for the music industry to (amongst other things) introduce its own rating system for content they deemed objectionable. The result of that was the awful Parental Advisory sticker that still sullies the front cover of many an album today. When it comes to games though, the ESRB already has a fairly robust rating systems in place to deal with that.

With the door firmly closed on legally restricting the sale of violent games to kids following the Supreme Court ruling I linked earlier and retailers in general self-regulating the sale of games to kids as per the ESRB ratings, there's not much more these groups could hope for outside of trying to force retailers to simply not carry violent video games in the first place. Again, in the case of the US, the only chance of that happening is getting all of them classified as AO (Adults Only) which many of the larger retailers currently refuse to stock. In other words, it's never going to happen.

Pac1Man wrote: »

Weren't America (Microsoft) promoting that Full Spectrum Warrior game back in the day as some sort of military training aid?

Not sure about Full Spectrum Warrior but the US Army itself has a fairly long history of using video games for various purposes. America's Army, for instance, was effectively used as a recruitment and general PR tool back in the early 2000s whereas VBS1 and its successor, created by ARMA developers Bohemia Interactive, were used as more of a training tool given their simulation leaning.

Varik

The old hearing from 93/94/03 are up on C span all archived.

Kiith

It's the same old ****e from a government who don't want to face the actual cause of these shootings. Why admit that there is a problem with the gun culture, when you can find a perfectly good scapegoat and try to focus everyone's attention on that?

Other countries have these violent games...how come they don't have these issues? Hmm, maybe it's because they don't sell AR-15's to 18 year olds.

kunst nugget

gizmo wrote: »

Back in the 80s, for instance, the Parents Music Resource Center pushed for the music industry to (amongst other things) introduce its own rating system for content they deemed objectionable. The result of that was the awful Parental Advisory sticker that still sullies the front cover of many an album today.

I think they inadvertently created a design classic with the creation of that sticker and I love the irony that the label effectively became a marketing tool to advertise an artist's edginess.

Varik

Kiith wrote: »

It's the same old ****e from a government who don't want to face the actual cause of these shootings. Why admit that there is a problem with the gun culture, when you can find a perfectly good scapegoat and try to focus everyone's attention on that?

Other countries have these violent games...how come they don't have these issues? Hmm, maybe it's because they don't sell AR-15's to 18 year olds.

Even limiting it to school shootings, it's handguns/revolvers that are at double the figures compared to all rifles and shotguns combined.

The last government hearing were at the time of the assault weapon ban, their thought process was that you can't have these violent games there while they were at the same time pushing gun control. Be the same as smoking ban here but still having the extremely large amount of advertising there used to be.

Dyr

The white house youtube channel just stuck this up:

The gun lobby in the US has waay more clout in politics than the gaming industry, they want a scapegoat to take the heat off them and this is it.

Of course the dim wits in the gaming press laid the groundwork for this fiasco. They've spend the last four years pumping the media with negative stories about how gaming is causing misogyny, homophobia, racism, the rise of trump AND violence.

There's an obvious conclusion to that narrative : if you claim that gaming can cause all that then you can't also claim it has had no role in mass shootings

These idiots are a liability to gaming.

Sonics2k

Bambi wrote: »

The white house youtube channel just stuck this up:

The gun lobby in the US has waay more clout in politics than the gaming industry, they want a scapegoat to take the heat off them and this is it.

Of course the dim wits in the gaming press laid the groundwork for this fiasco. They've spend the last four years pumping the media with negative stories about how gaming is causing misogyny, homophobia, racism, the rise of trump AND violence.

There's an obvious conclusion to that narrative : if you claim that gaming can cause all that then you can't also claim it has had no role in mass shootings

These idiots are a liability to gaming.

Eh? I'm no fan of the people in certain gaming outlets (polygon etc), but the whole gaming = violence things has been around for as long as I remember. I distinctly remember the same things being said about Mortal Kombat when it first came out.

Nothing at all to do with the last few years of journalism, this has been going on for decades.

Jerichoholic

Bambi wrote: »

The white house youtube channel just stuck this up:

The gun lobby in the US has waay more clout in politics than the gaming industry, they want a scapegoat to take the heat off them and this is it.

Of course the dim wits in the gaming press laid the groundwork for this fiasco. They've spend the last four years pumping the media with negative stories about how gaming is causing misogyny, homophobia, racism, the rise of trump AND violence.

There's an obvious conclusion to that narrative : if you claim that gaming can cause all that then you can't also claim it has had no role in mass shootings

These idiots are a liability to gaming.

Nail on the head.

Of course, the White House will naturally be putting up a similar video of Movies, TV, Books and music right?

gizmo

Sonics2k wrote: »

Eh? I'm no fan of the people in certain gaming outlets (polygon etc), but the whole gaming = violence things has been around for as long as I remember. I distinctly remember the same things being said about Mortal Kombat when it first came out.

Nothing at all to do with the last few years of journalism, this has been going on for decades.

I'd also love to see all the articles over the last four years where the gaming press has blamed video games for violence, never mind any of the more horrific cases of school shootings. Since the late 90s every outlet I can think of has taken varying levels of pleasure in pointing out the flaws in the arguments made on the subject.

There's a reason Grossman was in that White House meeting and not an army of psychologists ready to agree with him and the other parental groups, there simply isn't any peer reviewed research to support their claims. As Retr0gamer linked earlier, the evidence in fact shows the complete opposite.

Varik

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Of course, the White House will naturally be putting up a similar video of Movies, TV, Books and music right?

They all get a pass and have done for years now.

You've actor in the news screaming and donating money for gun control, but then they're in firms were arms manufacturers actually have paid for product placement.

Beretta paid $250k to have their handgun be in some mark wahlberg movie.

Dyr

gizmo wrote: »

I'd also love to see all the articles over the last four years where the gaming press has blamed video games for violence, never mind any of the more horrific cases of school shootings. Since the late 90s every outlet I can think of has taken varying levels of pleasure in pointing out the flaws in the arguments made on the subject..

There are gaming sites that have been screaming to the press that themes in gaming have a negative effect on gamers and on society, they can't now claim that there is some sort of magical exclusion to that effect when it comes to violence. Its either valid or not

For the first time it was people who are supposed to be part of the games industry that laid the groundwork to validate that claim and to pillory gamers.

Varik

Bambi wrote: »

For the first time it was people who are supposed to be part of the games industry that laid the groundwork to validate that claim and to pillory gamers.

https://twitter.com/levine/status/970507509042700288

Billy86

It's really two things at play here in my opinion:

1. The NRA looking to divert attention from gun violence, and the fact they literally have been running national ads calling for people to take violence against people with different political opinions to them (which is kind of exactly the definition of terrorism - "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."). The NRA and general gun lobby also donated millions to Trump's campaign.

2. Trump is once again virtue signalling with nothing to back it up, but sure what else is new?

I'd consider this a lot more likely to drive someone to commit violence than BJ Blazkowicz shooting up some "very fine people" in Wolfenstein:

Billy86

Bambi wrote: »

There are gaming sites that have been screaming to the press that themes in gaming have a negative effect on gamers and on society

They're all from the one site, though - motherboard.vice.com. I had not heard of it before, but at a glance Motherboard doesn't look like a gaming site: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us

gizmo

Bambi wrote: »

There are gaming sites that have been screaming to the press that themes in gaming have a negative effect on gamers and on society, they can't now claim that there is some sort of magical exclusion to that effect when it comes to violence. Its either valid or not

For the first time it was people who are supposed to be part of the games industry that laid the groundwork to validate that claim and to pillory gamers.

Well firstly, as others have said Motherboard aren't a gaming site, they're a tech subsite of Vice. Regardless, the articles themselves do not blame video games for violence as once again claimed.

"Violent Video Games Really Are Messing With Your Brain" from 2011 reports on a study from Indiana University School of Medicine which claims to show changes in the brain activity of the test subjects, after they have played violent video games, in the areas which are responsible for controlling emotion and aggressive behavior.

The author of the actual article then summarises by saying..

So is this the nail in the coffin for violent video games? That’s doubtful. The research does show that violent video games do indeed affect brain function, which does seem to provide solid ammo for anti-gaming activists. But the value of the study lies in its demonstration of solid methods for this type of research, and its highlighting of the fact that more long-term research is needed.

As an addendum, they also point out that the research itself was funded by the Center for Successful Parenting, a group who is "very prominently anti-violence in video games", which should be taken into consideration when considering the findings.

"Science Links Violent Video Games to Cumulative Aggression and Dickishness in General" from 2012 reports on a study published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, a peer reviewed journal. The experiment concluded by saying "those exposed to violent video games gathered a more aggressive tone with each subsequent day; among those exposed to nonviolent games, they did not. Tone, even in the context of the experiment, does not cause violence and they merely discussed the short term effects on behaviour.

This time, the author of the piece more humorously concludes with..

So are violent video games conditioning people to be become fundamentally more violent? That's yet to be seen, but this new study does suggest that violent video games can make you a more aggressive, cynical jerk. And that, for anyone who's listened to people screaming obscenities on Xbox Live et al, shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

"How Video Games Unwittingly Train the Brain to Justify Killing" from 2016 is an article by a PhD student in Translational Neuroscience at University of Louisville, so not a journalist, and centers on a study by a neuroscientist at the University of Queensland where the researchers again viewed brain activity during and after participants viewed a violent video game. Again, no causal link is established between violence and games, just that they affect the brain in areas generally responsibly for aggression and empathy.

"Don't Get Excited About the New Study Saying Video Games Don't Make You Violent" from 2017 talks about a similar study which has shown contradictory study from Frontiers in Psychology. The article does three things; presents the study's findings, puts them in the context of a study from the American Psychological Association's Task Force on Violent Media while quite importantly also highlighting the myriad of academics who disagree with their findings and then, as per the title, highlights the fact that the journal that they appeared in should be viewed with skepticism following some pretty egregious retractions as of late. Again, no causal link with violence is expressed in the article by the author.

And finally we have "Let's Enjoy This Wholesome Moral Panic About Violent Video Games While It Lasts" which was published yesterday and simply makes fun of the entire argument against violent video games and instead says there are more important things to worry about in games, like the proliferation of loot boxes.

So yea, none of the articles demonstrate what was claimed and even go as far as to be the complete opposite in the case of the last one.

A more interesting question to come from this, especially given the fact that someone actually went to the bother of creating that chart you've linked, is should publications ever cover studies which discuss gaming in anything approaching a negative light and, by extension, should we ignore the science that we don't happen to like or agree with? Absolutely not in my opinion, it would be utterly hypocritical to dismiss the Trumps and the Thompsons and the Grossmans and the "family values" type organisations of the world with science and to then ignore any legitimate science which we don't like for whatever reason.

Leave that kind of behaviour to them.

Jerichoholic

Billy86 wrote: »

It's really two things at play here in my opinion:

1. The NRA looking to divert attention from gun violence, and the fact they literally have been running national ads calling for people to take violence against people with different political opinions to them (which is kind of exactly the definition of terrorism - "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."). The NRA and general gun lobby also donated millions to Trump's campaign.

2. Trump is once again virtue signalling with nothing to back it up, but sure what else is new?

I'd consider this a lot more likely to drive someone to commit violence than BJ Blazkowicz shooting up some "very fine people" in Wolfenstein:

I thought that was Anita Sarkezian for a second and was about to order an Uzi.

Billy86

Jerichoholic wrote: »

I thought that was Anita Sarkezian for a second and was about to order an Uzi.

No no, instead it's the woman who lied by claiming the victims of the Florida school shooting tried to 'rush the stage' and 'screaming burn her' because the likes of the NRA love nothing more than to play the victim, even if it means trying to paint the actual teenagers who were shot at as criminal savages.

Tony EH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o36-byW6ZTo

Reminds me of the, equally, disingenuous video nasty witchhunt carried out by the conservatives in Britain during the 80's, complete with the same type of bogus collection of random clips.

It's still movies and games that help people kill other people. not weapons. Why do we keep forgetting this?

I, for one, thank this billionaire, property developer, twitter hogging, president for helping the world open its eyes to the extreme dangers that are caused by this most violent and life threatening pastime.

It's not the readily accessed weaponry and a dreadful healthcare model that allows sick people massacre other people, it's 'Call of Duty' and 'Wolfenstein'.

Of course it is!

Icyseanfitz

meh just the same ol circle of stupidity, I remember this being a rampant argument back in the days of gta3-gta SA. Certain games might be able to de-synthesize some stuff (same as movies) but any normal person doesnt think what they do in games has any baring on reality. Its the same as reading violent books or watching violent movies imo.

Its always easier to blame something uncomplicated

Doctor Nick

Yawn. More of this Crap. Playing games over 30 years and haven't turned into a mass murderer yet. Best not give these articles/videos any clicks.

gimli2112

We just have to restrict the sale of video games to people under 18, with a criminal record or mental illness or the sale of automatic assault rifles, one or the other.

wes

The gun nuts are grasping at straws in the US. They love to talk about rights from the US constitution, but ignore the 1st amendment in it, in favor of the 2nd.

At this point, I could care less about the right to bear arms bull****. These lads lost what little moral ground they had years ago. The gun nuts aren't going to get away with making gaming a scape goat this time around, the games industry lobby can easily hurt any politician by funding a rival and rally voters who grew up playing video games. Its a really stupid move.

Potential-Monke

Free advertising for those games!

Shiminay

If only I could get access to the firearms necessary to carry out all the mass murders that my 30+ years of playing computer games have trained me for, then I'd show them...

Oh, wait...

ancapailldorcha

The guy who's peddled easy answers to every complex societal problem that the US faces isn't changing. I suppose there's no point in him doing so since it got him elected.

I think this Totalbiscuit video is quite good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwAo8lcAC4

super_furry

There's not even a debate to be had. People all over the world play the same videogames - Japan, Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. There's only one country in the world where school shootings and mass murder killing sprees are a daily occurrence and that's the country that allows everyone who can draw breath to own military grade weapons.

mrm

super_furry wrote: »

There's not even a debate to be had. People all over the world play the same videogames - Japan, Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. There's only one country in the world where school shootings and mass murder killing sprees are a daily occurrence and that's the country that allows everyone who can draw breath to own military grade weapons.

While anyone can cite isolated incidents involving ('unhinged' individuals who are unlike the majority of humans who play VGs or not) Daniel Petric, Warren Leblanc (murdered Stefan Pakeerah) or Jerry Carrier and focus the whole study on them I always found the chart in this article interesting https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/?utm_term=.9ebb468b110c.

There are other charts available ('US Homocide Rates 1885 to 2010') showing the homocide rate increasing from about 1982 to 1991, at which point a drop occurs. Conclusion - between the video game crash and the release of Zelda: ALTTP kids went on a mass shooting spree!:pac:

The Stefen Pakeerah murder is interesting as the media (incorrectly) reported that the 'inciting' game Manhunt was found in murderer Warren Leblancs bedroom, when it was actually only found in the victims bedroom.

Unfortunately the debate been had is significantly built on 'alternative truths'.

Mal-Adjusted

Lets put all that video game training to good use...

"I tried to reload my assault rifle, but i couldn't find the X button"

Varik

gimli2112 wrote: »

We just have to restrict the sale of video games to people under 18, with a criminal record or mental illness or the sale of automatic assault rifles, one or the other.

Automatic weapons are already banned to private citizens, only issue here is that it only applies to guns manufactured after the 1968 law was enacted.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

It's really two things at play here in my opinion:

1. The NRA looking to divert attention from gun violence, and the fact they literally have been running national ads calling for people to take violence against people with different political opinions to them (which is kind of exactly the definition of terrorism - "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."). The NRA and general gun lobby also donated millions to Trump's campaign.

2. Trump is once again virtue signalling with nothing to back it up, but sure what else is new?

I'd consider this a lot more likely to drive someone to commit violence than BJ Blazkowicz shooting up some "very fine people" in Wolfenstein:

Gun violence in video games is a very valid concern the the U.S. it's not about blaming the video games industry for mass shootings, it's about dipicting gun violence in a society that has guns readily available to the general public. In a society where owning and using a gun absolutely must come with respect and an enormous amount of responsibily. Make believe gun violence is in complete conflict with the respectful, responsible gun culture needed in a society that has guns readily available.

To us, killing people with guns in a video game is complete and total fiction. There is no association between playing an FPS and the real world. In the U.S there is an association, a connection to the real world. It's not a complete act of fiction. Imagine owning a gun, going out on the shooting range or hunting trip and then coming home and playing a video game where you have to shoot people dead, possibly even with the exact same weapon.

Yes other countries do not have a mass shooting epidemic. But other countries are not the USA.