Defecting from Church

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 5:02pm

daithi84 wrote: »

It is not a matter of pretending it didnt happen. its a matter of my personal records being recorded without my consent. Up until 2008 you could get the records deleted and then they changed the rules so no one could remove themselves from the baptismal register.

I also once signed up for a tesco card, is that also historical. They allowed me to delete the record, why cant the CC.

You seem very intent on keeping names on the register. Wonder why?? hmm

Hmmmm....indeed. Your parents gave consent on your behalf, just like they gave consent for you to get your vaccines and your appendix out and to go on the school tour.
It matters not one whit to me how many names are on the register.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I think people who don’t attend should be struck out altogether so that when they come looking for
Communion day out
Confirmation day out
A wedding day out
A funeral day out
The priest could honestly tell them that they can’t do anything for them because they’re not on the list, and that way no ones time is wasted.
Don’t you agree?

Dial Hard · 12-03-2018 5:17pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

I just don't want to make things difficult for my parents if I die soon.

So get cremated. Problem solved.

uck51js9zml2yt · 12-03-2018 5:23pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

But, can someone be refused burial? In a local graveyard?

If you want nothing to do with the church nor contribute to the running of the organisation , why should they allow you use their facilities?

If it's a council cemetery there's no issue.

I'm saying this as someone who left over 30 years ago but never formally defected.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 6:19pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Hmmmm....indeed. Your parents gave consent on your behalf, just like they gave consent for you to get your vaccines and your appendix out and to go on the school tour.
It matters not one whit to me how many names are on the register.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I think people who don’t attend should be struck out altogether so that when they come looking for
Communion day out
Confirmation day out
A wedding day out
A funeral day out
The priest could honestly tell them that they can’t do anything for them because they’re not on the list, and that way no ones time is wasted.
Don’t you agree?

Doesnt matter if my parents gave consent, I'm an adult now and i want that consent withdrawn. It is not a definitive event like appendix or vaccine. They cant be undone. My name in a baptismal register can.

I wont be looking for communions, confirmations, weddings or a funeral. If your name is removed from the register you are no longer considered a catholic by the church and these services are denied to you unless you re-baptise. That is the case as is. However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for (without the mandatory "voluntary" donations that exists here).

You are more than entitled to not care where you name appears but to some of us it matters a great deal. Each to their own as they say.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 6:40pm

daithi84 wrote: »

However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

Are you trapped? Should we send a rescue party?

You seem to think the baptismal register is a contract or legal document. It's not. You were baptised, whether you like it or not. Your choice now is whether you place any credence in a ritual you ostensibly don't regard as having any significance.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 6:43pm

daithi84 wrote: »

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for

Why in the name of god should the state get involved in collecting funds for churches? Why should the public pay to provide the service which collects their money for them?

Ewan Hoosarmi · 12-03-2018 6:48pm

https://notme.ie

This what you're looking for?

It's only symbolic, but isn't the whole religion thing symbolics anyway?

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 6:58pm

daithi84 wrote: »

Doesnt matter if my parents gave consent, I'm an adult now and i want that consent withdrawn. It is not a definitive event like appendix or vaccine. They cant be undone. My name in a baptismal register can.

I wont be looking for communions, confirmations, weddings or a funeral. If your name is removed from the register you are no longer considered a catholic by the church and these services are denied to you unless you re-baptise. That is the case as is. However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for (without the mandatory "voluntary" donations that exists here).

You are more than entitled to not care where you name appears but to some of us it matters a great deal. Each to their own as they say.

Your baptism was a definitive event.
Your parents made an appointment with a healthcare professional.
Your parents brought you to get your MMR vaccine. It was given to you, and a record was made of the incident.
Likewise,
Your parents made an appointment with the priest.
They asked people they knew to be your godparents.
They bought a special candle.
On the big day they got you all dressed up and they brought you to the church and you were baptized a Catholic.
Nobody dragged them there.
I would suggest that it’s your parents you should have the issue with and you really should take it up with them and I wonder if you have?
It did happen and you can’t go back in a time machine and undo it.
Apart from feeling aggrieved with the church instead of parents, how is the fact that you were baptized affecting your day to day life?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:00pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

Are you trapped? Should we send a rescue party?

You seem to think the baptismal register is a contract or legal document. It's not. You were baptised, whether you like it or not. Your choice now is whether you place any credence in a ritual you ostensibly don't regard as having any significance.

You seem very triggered at the thought of someone wanting their name removed. How exactly will it affect you? I was baptised and now I want that record deleted and my name removed. You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded. I want that record either deleted or amended to reflect my defection since that is the official record held by the Catholic Church. It’s quite simple. Don’t know why you are so against the idea unless you don’t want people leaving.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:00pm

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

https://notme.ie

This what you're looking for?

It's only symbolic, but isn't the whole religion thing symbolics anyway?

Pre 2008 is was an official defection. The church changed cannon law to forbid anyone leaving due to high numbers.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:08pm

Your baptism was a definitive event.
Your parents made an appointment with a healthcare professional.
Your parents brought you to get your MMR vaccine. It was given to you, and a record was made of the incident.
Likewise,
Your parents made an appointment with the priest.
They asked people they knew to be your godparents.
They bought a special candle.
On the big day they got you all dressed up and they brought you to the church and you were baptized a Catholic.
Nobody dragged them there.
I would suggest that it’s your parents you should have the issue with and you really should take it up with them and I wonder if you have?
It did happen and you can’t go back in a time machine and undo it.
Apart from feeling aggrieved with the church instead of parents, how is the fact that you were baptized affecting your day to day life?

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic. Don’t know why this bothers you so much.

Again I cancelled my Tesco card, I am no longer considered a Tesco club card member. I was registered before and now I’m not. Simples.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 7:10pm

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem very triggered at the thought of someone wanting their name removed. How exactly will it affect you? I was baptised and now I want that record deleted and my name removed. You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded. I want that record either deleted or amended to reflect my defection since that is the official record held by the Catholic Church. It’s quite simple. Don’t know why you are so against the idea unless you don’t want people leaving.

You are the one who is concerned about being forever considered a Catholic.
I don’t consider you to be a Catholic at all.
There are over 1 billion other people who are either happy to be Catholics or don’t care one way or the other.
Your attaching a huge importance to something that you don’t believe in and that means nothing to you.
It’s extraordinary really.
But...keep agonizing anyway...

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 7:11pm

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic. Don’t know why this bothers you so much.

Again I cancelled my Tesco card, I am no longer considered a Tesco club card member. I was registered before and now I’m not. Simples.

You want the record corrected.
What details in the record are incorrect Daithi ?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:14pm

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem very triggered at the thought of someone wanting their name removed. How exactly will it affect you? I was baptised and now I want that record deleted and my name removed. You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded. I want that record either deleted or amended to reflect my defection since that is the official record held by the Catholic Church. It’s quite simple. Don’t know why you are so against the idea unless you don’t want people leaving.

You are the one who is concerned about being forever considered a Catholic.
I don’t consider you to be a Catholic at all.
There are over 1 billion other people who are either happy to be Catholics or don’t care one way or the other.
Your attaching a huge importance to something that you don’t believe in and that means nothing to you.
It’s extraordinary really.
But...keep agonizing anyway...

The Catholic religion is of no consideration to me personally. My name being used on their documents is. It’s quite simple. My name on that list means a huge significance to me. Why you consider my wanting my name on a baptismal register removed a great upset to yourself is beyond me. Enjoy your faith and your church, I just don’t want to be apart of it.

Skedaddle · 12-03-2018 7:15pm

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

I'm not aware of any legal reason why the Catholic Church, any of its orders or any other religion would be exempt from EU data protection law.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 7:15pm

What is this word 'triggered'?
I think it's more 'bored and killing time'.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:15pm

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic. Don’t know why this bothers you so much.

Again I cancelled my Tesco card, I am no longer considered a Tesco club card member. I was registered before and now I’m not. Simples.

You want the record corrected.
What details in the record are incorrect Daithi ?

That I am not a registered catholic. Don’t know why your knickers are in a twist, the Catholic Church had no problem pre 2008 to correct the record. Think they stamped it “defected”. I’d be quite happy with that.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:16pm

Skedaddle wrote: »

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

Once GDPR comes into effect in May I will be sending off a request.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 7:17pm

Skedaddle wrote: »

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

It certainly should be worth a go to people who find its casting a long dark shadow over their lives.
The solicitors will certainly be rubbing their hands in glee, and best of luck to them.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:18pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Skedaddle wrote: »

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

It certainly should be worth a go to people who find its casting a long dark shadow over their lives.
The solicitors will certainly be rubbing their hands in glee, and best of luck to them.

It should be a simple request and free of charge. Akin to the FOI requests process. Will be interesting to test.

fxotoole · 12-03-2018 7:19pm

ifElseThen wrote: »

Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving the Catholic church.

Church of the flying spaghetti monster

Ewan Hoosarmi · 12-03-2018 7:20pm

fxotoole wrote: »

Church of the flying spaghetti monster

Sauce be upon him.

Skedaddle · 12-03-2018 7:20pm

daithi84 wrote: »

Once GDPR comes into effect in May I will be sending off a request.

Even under existing legislation it would be an interesting avenue to explore. The GDPR would be tougher though.

I defected a few years ago, just ahead of their rule change. It was primarily that I am not at all religious and just did not want to be associated with the organisation as I was absolutely appalled at how it was dealing with various scandals at the time and also its attitudes to homosexuality.

So, I just felt that it wasn't something I had ever voluntarily subscribed to and I was damned if they were going to be including me as one of their members when I don't see eye-to-eye with them on a whole load of non-theological issues and I'm also an atheist.

For the sake of not being a total hypocrite about it, it seemed utterly reasonable to have that data amended and I think it's very unfair and utterly unreasonable not to be able to do that.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 7:20pm

daithi84 wrote: »

That I am not a registered catholic. Don’t know why your knickers are in a twist, the Catholic Church had no problem pre 2008 to correct the record. Think they stamped it “defected”. I’d be quite happy with that.

You were never a registered catholic because there’s no register of Catholics.
Any where.
Ever.
You are registered in a parish register of sacraments as being baptized a Catholic because you were baptized a Catholic.

Skedaddle · 12-03-2018 7:22pm

When I sent in the relevant form, I got a fairly weird long letter from a priest I have no memory of ever meeting going on about me as a child and how he remember me in school. I have no idea how he remembered me from school as I was only in that school for about 1 year and have no memory of ever even having a conversation with him.

It was perfectly polite and he wished me well, but just strange.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 7:36pm

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

That I am not a registered catholic. Don’t know why your knickers are in a twist, the Catholic Church had no problem pre 2008 to correct the record. Think they stamped it “defected”. I’d be quite happy with that.

You were never a registered catholic because there’s no register of Catholics.
Any where.
Ever.
You are registered in a parish register of sacraments as being baptized a Catholic because you were baptized a Catholic.

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 7:57pm

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic.

You are not denying the event occurred, but want the record corrected. But the record is correct. You were baptised. That has nothing to state about your religious beliefs subsequent to the event. It's a record, by your own use of the term. Records are not used to predict the future. Deleting it denies the past rather than determining the future.

TheChizler · 12-03-2018 8:01pm

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded.

The Church hold that exact view. They consider any person who has ever been baptised a Catholic, whether they have a note added to the baptism rigister, are officially excommunicated by the Pope (look it up!), or your entire parish burns down and all records are destroyed. The Church will never consider you anything but a Catholic no matter what you do, maybe a reluctant one.

By that definition I'm still a Catholic, but it has as much meaning to me as that religion (can't remember which) who go around adding names from gravestones to a members register they keep. Let them believe what they want, it won't have any impact on anyone else's life as long as I don't write it on the census or attend mass.

You're giving meaning to an opinion that even the church doesn't hold (that your name in a register has any more meaning than the event happened at this date), and validating some sort of hold over you. The only effect getting them to amend it would have is inconveniencing the local PP or some admin staff.

Go for it of you can but their opinion will always be the same: you are a Catholic.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 8:04pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic.

You are not denying the event occurred, but want the record corrected. But the record is correct. You were baptised. That has nothing to state about your religious beliefs subsequent to the event. It's a record, by your own use of the term. Records are not used to predict the future. Deleting it denies the past rather than determining the future.

Your own church corrected the record prior to 2008 so if i were you I’d take it up with them. Done before can be done again.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 8:13pm

TheChizler wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded.

The Church hold that exact view. They consider any person who has ever been baptised a Catholic, whether they have a note added to the baptism rigister, are officially excommunicated by the Pope (look it up!), or your entire parish burns down and all records are destroyed. The Church will never consider you anything but a Catholic no matter what you do, maybe a reluctant one.

By that definition I'm still a Catholic, but it has as much meaning to me as that religion (can't remember which) who go around adding names from gravestones to a members register they keep. Let them believe what they want, it won't have any impact on anyone else's life as long as I don't write it on the census or attend mass.

You're giving meaning to an opinion that even the church doesn't hold (that your name in a register has any more meaning than the event happened at this date), and validating some sort of hold over you. The only effect getting them to amend it would have is inconveniencing the local PP or some admin staff.

Go for it of you can but their opinion will always be the same: you are a Catholic.

The grave thing is the Mormons I think. I really haven’t thought about it in a few years until I seen this post. It’s a personal thing so I will attempt to remove it under the GDPR. If it doesn’t work c’èst la vie.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 8:14pm

daithi84 wrote: »

Your own church corrected the record prior to 2008 so if i were you I’d take it up with them. Done before can be done again.

you seem to think I am a catholic?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 8:15pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

Your own church corrected the record prior to 2008 so if i were you I’d take it up with them. Done before can be done again.

you seem to think I am a catholic?

You seem to think I care one way or the other.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 8:17pm

daithi84 wrote: »

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

I have issues with people who are not Catholics using the church as a pretty dropback to family days out.
I’ve already said that.
To that end I think that every parish should have a register of practising Catholics which you will be removed from if you don’t participate in parish life and you can remove yourself from at any time.
If you present yourself or your child for a sacrament in any parish in the world, you need an up to date printout from your home parish indicating your participation.
Apart from that I’m amused at the idea that we can time travel and undo what’s done.
It’s also interesting that you don’t hold your family responsible at all for you being on the baptism register?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 8:23pm

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

I have issues with people who are not Catholics using the church as a pretty dropback to family days out.
I’ve already said that.
To that end I think that every parish should have a register of practising Catholics which you will be removed from if you don’t participate in parish life and you can remove yourself from at any time.
If you present yourself or your child for a sacrament in any parish in the world, you need an up to date printout from your home parish indicating your participation.
Apart from that I’m amused at the idea that we can time travel and undo what’s done.
It’s also interesting that you don’t hold your family responsible at all for you being on the baptism register?

I’ve had the conversations with my family. My family like most these days are extremely against the organisational church and times were a lot different 35 years ago. I think it was mostly done for the sake of my grandparents and school access.

I’m amused you think the record is just a record of an event, especially since the Church had a formal process for removing your name and then went to great lengths to stop it once too many people starting applying.

As I said before I do not avail of any church services and will not in the future.

As far as I’m aware if you do want to avail of sacraments or what not in a church you do need to prove you are a Catholic.

Robert McGrath · 12-03-2018 8:24pm

Approximately 8 seconds ago I started a new religion.

This religion is called Robertology and shares all of its doctrines and dogma with the Roman Catholic Church with one small difference. The Church of Robertology publicly believes that the abuse of children is ok, and believes that the Catholic Church should never have apologised for this.

I have decided that daithi84 is a member of the Church of Robertology and can never leave, whether he believes in it or not. I have also decided that all of daithi84’s friends and family, and everyone he has ever met, are now Robertologists, whether they have heard of the religion or not, and they can never leave either.

You should probably include me in that Data Protection complaint

The high horse brigade · 12-03-2018 8:41pm

By definition isn't a religion you can't leave a cult?

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 9:09pm

splinter65 wrote: »

To that end I think that every parish should have a register of practising Catholics which you will be removed from if you don’t participate in parish life and you can remove yourself from at any time.
If you present yourself or your child for a sacrament in any parish in the world, you need an up to date printout from your home parish indicating your participation.

why do you care though? if people want to live by a creed you find hypocritical, why are you formulating rules for participation in a belief system you don't believe in yourself?

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 9:10pm

the catholic church in ireland is dying not from opposition, but from apathy.

TheChizler · 12-03-2018 9:27pm

daithi84 wrote: »

The grave thing is the Mormons I think. I really haven’t thought about it in a few years until I seen this post. It’s a personal thing so I will attempt to remove it under the GDPR. If it doesn’t work c’èst la vie.

Best of luck but as linked above the DPC considers it a record of an event not a current affiliation.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 10:47pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Best of luck but as linked above the DPC considers it a record of an event not a current affiliation.

Thanks for the link. I'll keep you posted

expectationlost · 13-03-2018 1:17am

ifElseThen wrote: »

Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving the Catholic church.

AI have a post on this they say there is such a thing a register of defacto defection https://www.notme.ie/2018/03/more-than-one-thousand-symbolic-defections/

Peregrinus · 13-03-2018 2:53am

TheChizler wrote: »

The Church hold that exact view. They consider any person who has ever been baptised a Catholic, whether they have a note added to the baptism rigister, are officially excommunicated by the Pope (look it up!), or your entire parish burns down and all records are destroyed. The Church will never consider you anything but a Catholic no matter what you do, maybe a reluctant one . . .

No, they don't.

As far as the Catholic church is concerned, you can defect from the church, and canon law contains various provisions dealing with people who have defected from the church. Those provisions would be pointless and meaningless if the Catholic church considered defection impossible.

All that has changed in recent years is this: for a relatively brief period there was a formal defection process (involving writing to the bishop) which you could pursue if you wished. For certain purposes of canon law, your defection would not be recognised unless you went through that process. The idea was to establish a degree of certainty over whether someone had defected or not; if he went through the process, he had defected; if he didn't, he hadn't. (Or, at least, for canon law purposes it was presumed that he hadn't.)

This only ever applied for limited purposes - specifically, for certain aspects of Catholic marriage law. For other purposes - e.g. whether you could have a Catholic funeral - you could be recognised as having defected even without having gone through this process.

This was one of these things that looked like a good idea at the time, but in practice turned out to be a terrible one. Very, very few people actually went through the formal defection process. (Which you'd expect, really; most people who fall away from Catholicism, or any other religion, do so because they have lost interest. Why would we expect them to enter into correspondence with the Bishop about it?) The end result was that, for Catholic marriage law purposes, large numbers of people who had in reality ceased to be Catholics, and who did not consider themselves Catholic, were being treated as still Catholic because they had not filled out the forms. This was producing absurd results. (By which I mean, results even more absurd than the ones Catholic marriage law already produces.)

So they dropped the rule. For all purposes of canon law, you no longer have to go through any formal process in order to defect from the Catholic church; you just defect. The Catholic church will generally not take a position about whether you have defected or not unless and until it needs to (e.g. because you wish to marry in the Catholic church) which, for most people, never happens.

Peregrinus · 13-03-2018 5:04am

daithi84 wrote: »

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

They never deleted records. The record is simply a record of the fact that a baptism occurred, and this is an objectively true historical fact which will never change.

What they used to do, during the period when there was a formal defection process, was to add a note to the baptismal record stating that the person concerned had defected from the church. (They may still do this in some places, if you write to them telling they you have left the church; it depends on local policy.)

Getting a note added to the baptismal register wasn't the means by which you left the church; it was an acknowledgement of the fact that you had left the church. Not putting the note in the register didn't mean that you were still a member of the church, any more than not entering your baptism in the register could have altered the fact that you had been baptised. It's the actual events, not the records of them, which matter here, as far as the Catholic church is concerned.

13-03-2018 5:12am

I figured putting down a different religion, such as Leinster Rugby, on the census was enough to count me out. At least those gods sometimes answer my prayers.

Peregrinus · 13-03-2018 5:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

I figured putting down a different religion, such as Leinster Rugby, on the census was enough to count me out. At least those gods sometimes answer my prayers.

It is, at least as regards not being counted as a Catholic. "Atheist", "Agnostic" or "no religion" would have done just as well.

In fact, one of those might have been a better option. As it is, you're probably a data point in the "other" category in the census reports, which most people are going to construe as "other (mostly minor) religions". So you're not being counted as Catholic, but you are being counted as religious.

s7ryf3925pivug · 13-03-2018 5:31am

When I was 16 I got a call from the new curate. He said I hadn't been to church for some time so would I like to be removed from their books? I said yes thanks. That was all there was to it. I was Methodist not Catholic though.

TheChizler · 13-03-2018 10:46am

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, they don't.

As far as the Catholic church is concerned, you can defect from the church, and canon law contains various provisions dealing with people who have defected from the church. Those provisions would be pointless and meaningless if the Catholic church considered defection impossible.

I must find out where I got that from, it was this forum somewhere years ago and I remember noting it went unchallenged at the time, and there were some links to church sources seeming to confirm it. Gotta set the record straight.

Maybe I'm thinking of excommunication, and thinking there can't be a way of being removed further from the church, so if they're still Catholic then someone who's defecting surely is too.

recedite · 13-03-2018 11:28am

Savanna Eager Minus wrote: »

When I was 16 I got a call from the new curate. He said I hadn't been to church for some time so would I like to be removed from their books? I said yes thanks. That was all there was to it. I was Methodist not Catholic though.

The Methodist church in Ireland seems to be remarkably efficient at reducing its membership numbers.

daithi84 · 13-03-2018 12:20pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Getting a note added to the baptismal register wasn't the means by which you left the church; it was an acknowledgement of the fact that you had left the church. Not putting the note in the register didn't mean that you were still a member of the church, any more than not entering your baptism in the register could have altered the fact that you had been baptised. It's the actual events, not the records of them, which matter here, as far as the Catholic church is concerned.

I'm not really bothered in what the church is concerned with. Really i'd be doing it for myself. If its all about events, adding a note to the record should not be an issue since the event has occurred. Keeping or deleting the record from the register won't affect the event so i fail to see peoples opposition to it being deleted. From another point of view there is an organisation recording my personal information without my consent, i have the right to withdraw consent of my personal information being stored anywhere regardless if my parents gave consent when i was a child for it to be recorded. The Right to Privacy and Protection of Personal Information is considered a human right as it is enhanced under GDPR.

As linked by previous commenter the church has said a reason for not deleting the information was because "essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised", i would love to know what the reasoning behind this is, since according to people here the register is purely a record of an event with no other purpose. Why do they care about one child baptised 35 years ago and why is that record so important to the "administration of Church affairs" if that information serves no other purpose??

Peregrinus · 13-03-2018 2:24pm

daithi84 wrote: »

I'm not really bothered in what the church is concerned with. Really i'd be doing it for myself. If its all about events, adding a note to the record should not be an issue since the event has occurred. Keeping or deleting the record from the register won't affect the event so i fail to see peoples opposition to it being deleted. From another point of view there is an organisation recording my personal information without my consent, i have the right to withdraw consent of my personal information being stored anywhere regardless if my parents gave consent when i was a child for it to be recorded. The Right to Privacy and Protection of Personal Information is considered a human right as it is enhanced under GDPR.

As linked by previous commenter the church has said a reason for not deleting the information was because "essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised", i would love to know what the reasoning behind this is, since according to people here the register is purely a record of an event with no other purpose. Why do they care about one child baptised 35 years ago and why is that record so important to the "administration of Church affairs" if that information serves no other purpose??

There was a case a few years ago in France where an ex-Catholic, who had already had his defection noted on his baptismal record, subsequently sought to have his baptismal record entirely deleted, and took court proceedings to compel this. As far as I recall he succeeded at first instance, but the church appealed and the appeal was successful. His case wasn't based on the GDPR, of course, but on the relevant French privacy laws at the time, but some of the same issues would arise, so it might be an enlightening study. I'll see if I can dig up some notes about it.

I'll admit to not being completely on top of the GDPR, but one immediate thought strikes me; the Regulation controls the processing of data - that's what the "P" stands for - and it defines processing as "any operation or set of operations which is performed on personal data or on sets of personal data". Simply having a record of some event is not an operation or set of operations (although creating a record would be). Simply having an existing record which was lawfully created at the time is not "processing", and the church probably doesn't require your consent to have the record.

There is a right to rectification of personal data but, assuming the entry in the baptismal register is correct - you were baptised on the date stated, and the other details regarding your parents, godparents etc are correct - that wouldn be no help to you.

And then there is the right to erasure. This one is a bit complicated. You would ask to exercise your right to erasure based on withdrawal of your consent to processing it. The church could respond to this in two ways:

First, they could argue that they don't need your consent. Under the Regulation data processing is lawful if one of six conditions is satisfied. The first condition is that they have your consent. But, if they don't have that, they're still OK if they are covered by one of the other five conditions. Some of these are clearly not going to be applicable (e.g. "processing is necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party.")

The one they'd most likely argue is condition (f), "processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller", but this one is qualified: "except where such interests are overridden by the interests or fundamental rights and freedoms of the data subject which require protection of personal data". So there'd be a row, basically, over whether the church's "legitimate interests" in being able to process its baptismal records were overridden by your "interests or fundamental rights and freedoms". (That's where a comparison with the French case I mentioned comes in, because if I recall correctly the same or a similar question arose under the applicable French law.)

The other line the church could take - and they don't have to choose between these two lines; they can run both - is to argue that they come within one of the exemptions to the right of erasure. There's no right of erasure where processing is necessary "for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes . . . in so far as the right [of erasure] is likely to render impossible or seriously impair the achievement of the objectives of that processing". In other words, they'd argue that baptismal records are an important source for historical, genealogical and social research, and shouldn't be deleted simply because people are unhappy about the fact that they were baptised.

Finally, they'd point out that, while maintaining a record is not processing it, deleting it is processing it, and the record in question contains information not only about you but also about your mother, your father and your godparents and, if your consent is required to any processing, so is theirs. (This problem goes away, of course, if your parents and godparents are dead, or join in your request for erasure).

If you're interested in pursuing this, you might want to open a thread in the legal forum. There are a few regulars over there who know a good deal about data protection who might have useful thoughts to offer.

Defecting from Church

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