Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

salmocab

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Maybe I should dig up a list of hyped academy players and list them in a team around my current favourites, see if I am right.

Then in 4 years time we can dig it out and make claims that you thought x was better than y and laugh at you

arsebiscuits1

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Funny that you put Paddy Patterson there when he couldn’t even get on the Ireland u20s last year, both Hugh o Sullivan and Jonny Stewart were ahead of him, he can’t even make 3rd choice scrumhalf on Leinster when McCarthy is injured. Tadgh Beirne will be in the 2nd row and I’m not even sure if Kelleher will get a professional contract at Leinster, hooker will be Niall Scannell and prop would be Michael Milne instead of Eric O Sullivan

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Possible starting 15 for 2023 World Cup?
1) Michale Milne
2) Niall Scannell
3) Tadgh Furlong
4) Ryan Baird
5) James Ryan
6) Dan Leavy
7) Josh Van De Flier
8) Caelon Doris
9) Hugh O’Sullivan
10) Harry Byrne
11) Jacob Stockdale
12) David Hawkshaw
13) Garry Ringrose
14) James Lowe
15) Jordan Larmour

16) Dan Sheehan
17) Josh Wycherley
18) Ryan Lomas
19) Tadgh Beirne
20) Max Deegan
21) Jonny Stewart
22) Jake Flannery
23) Sean French

How are you writing off 2 academy players while including 10 other ones :rolleyes:

salmocab

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

How are you writing off 2 academy players while including 10 other ones :rolleyes:

Thermoknows

Thermoman12

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

How are you writing off 2 academy players while including 10 other ones :rolleyes:

Who am I writing off? Patterson and Kelleher? Patterson will be playing for Leinster, might be lucky to make that World Cup squad and Ronan Kelleher will be playing for Connacht, I still think they’ll make it professionaly

The Lost Sheep

troyzer wrote: »

I was just wondering last night what the Ireland team composition might be like come the 2023 world cup. Who will have retired by then? Who will have moved on?

So let me commit my incredibly wrong, 2023 Rugby World cup starting XV to paper for all to mock in four years.

1) Eric O'Sullivan
2) Ronan Kelleher
3) Tadhg Furlong
4) Fineen Wycherley
5) James Ryan (c)
6) Dan Leavy
7) Josh Van der Flier
8) Max Deegan
9) Paddy Patterson
10) Joey Carbery
11) Jacob Stockdale
12) Conor O'Brien
13) Garry Ringrose
14) James Lowe
15) Jordan Larmour

A lot of the current starters or close to starters are in their late twenties. Most of them will probably have retired or moved on for the money by 2023. I think Henshaw will take a big money deal abroad at some point for example.

Could do with its own thread
Just look at previous threads on this topic: for 2019 world cup https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057474430&page=5
for 2015 world cup
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056389107

Buer wrote: »

Too much change. Guys like Henshaw, Aki, Murray, Stander, POM, McGrath, Henderson and Beirne are all going to be 29-33. They'll all be looking to be involved that year. Some will be overtaken but I would be very surprised if there weren't at least 3 still in the team.

Test rugby teams do not change quickly and it takes time for players to get to that level. Because of that, coaches are usually slow to discard guys who are proven performers at that level.

Its the same in all these threads. Most guys who are mid 20s and will be around 30 by next world cup are kind of forgotten about

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Maybe I should dig up a list of hyped academy players and list them in a team around my current favourites, see if I am right.

Yeah...

Thermoman12 wrote: »

They have some amount of talent for their age though, I really think they can push on and go all the way, but I could be wrong, just my opinion

Yes some may push on but not the number you are expecting. Look at the threads ive posted which have been on this topic for previous world cups....

errlloyd

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could do with its own thread
Just look at previous threads on this topic: for 2019 world cup https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057474430&page=5

I'm actually not that unhappy with this. Obviously Heenan, Kelleher and Gilroy were terrible predictions, but I didn't expect Kearney to go for so long. Bad of me to write off the Munster wingers, Earls and Conway. I am particularly happy with my second row predictions.

errlloyd wrote: »

For 2019, I think his method shows promise, anyone knocking around now will probably still be knocking around in a few years.

McGrath
Cronin
Moore
Toner
Henderson
POM
SOB
Healsip

Murray
Sexton

Zebo
Henshaw
Bundee Aki Ringrose
Gilroy
Kelleher

Strauss
Furlong
Healy
ANother
Heenan
L McGrath
Byrne
Fitzgerald

Buer

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Those players will be involved, you heard it here first

There's a good reason it's the first time we're hearing it.

Thermoman12

Buer wrote: »

There's a good reason it's the first time we're hearing it.

What’s that reason? Who in the starting 15 do you not think will make it and why? I’ve watched some of those players for a long time and I think they have what it takes to make it

Paul Smeenus

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could do with its own thread
Just look at previous threads on this topic: for 2019 world cup https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057474430&page=5
for 2015 world cup
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056389107

Its the same in all these threads. Most guys who are mid 20s and will be around 30 by next world cup are kind of forgotten about

Yeah...

Yes some may push on but not the number you are expecting. Look at the threads ive posted which have been on this topic for previous world cups....

There's some quite spectacular teams in there. Lots of bright, shiny, next-big-thing predictions.

Former Former

Far more likely to be along the lines of:

Jack McGrath
Niall Scannell
Tadhg Furlong
James Ryan
Ian Henderson
Peter O'Mahony
Josh van der Flier
CJ Stander
Conor Murray
Joey Carbery
Jacob Stockdale
Robbie Henshaw
Garry Ringrose
James Lowe
Jordan Larmour

Murray, McGrath, POM and Stander will all be 33/34 but it will take very special players to displace them even at that age.

Thermoman12

Former Former wrote: »

Far more likely to be along the lines of:

Jack McGrath
Niall Scannell
Tadhg Furlong
James Ryan
Ian Henderson
Peter O'Mahony
Josh van der Flier
CJ Stander
Conor Murray
Joey Carbery
Jacob Stockdale
Robbie Henshaw
Garry Ringrose
James Lowe
Jordan Larmour

Murray, McGrath, POM and Stander will all be 33/34 but it will take very special players to displace them even at that age.

You’re talking as if all the provinces closed down their academies and no academy players are coming through

arsebiscuits1

Thermoman12 wrote: »

You’re talking as if all the provinces closed down their academies and no academy players are coming through

And you're talking like all the provices closed down their senior teams and only have Junior Cert students available to play for them :pac:

Squidgy Black

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Possible starting 15 for 2023 World Cup?
1) Michale Milne
2) Niall Scannell
3) Tadgh Furlong
4) Ryan Baird
5) James Ryan
6) Dan Leavy
7) Josh Van De Flier
8) Caelon Doris
9) Hugh O’Sullivan
10) Harry Byrne
11) Jacob Stockdale
12) David Hawkshaw
13) Garry Ringrose
14) James Lowe
15) Jordan Larmour

16) Dan Sheehan
17) Josh Wycherley
18) Ryan Lomas
19) Tadgh Beirne
20) Max Deegan
21) Jonny Stewart
22) Jake Flannery
23) Sean French

So just to clear, you're dropping from the squad altogether in favour of players who will be barely out of the academy:

• Henshaw
• Jack McGrath
• Henderson
• Porter
• Marmion/Luke McGrath

And that's just the players under 30. Not including the likes of Stander, Murray, POM who still have a good chance of still playing at that stage.

aloooof

Former Former wrote: »

Murray, McGrath, POM and Stander will all be 33/34 but it will take very special players to displace them even at that age.

Completely agree with the calibre of player, but I'd be surprised if one of hte backrow isn't different, given it's such an attritional position.

Also, there's the added possibility that, at that age, some may have moved abroad to collect a bigger pay-check. (Imagine Ewan McKenna's reaction if that happened to be Stander...)

troyzer

Me right now:

Former Former

aloooof wrote: »

Completely agree with the calibre of player, but I'd be surprised if one of hte backrow isn't different, given it's such an attritional position.

No doubt, no way to predict that though.

aloooof wrote: »

Also, there's the added possibility that, at that age, some may have moved abroad to collect a bigger pay-check. (Imagine Ewan McKenna's reaction if that happened to be Stander...)

I don't think so tbh. We have yet to see this happen up to now, I'm not sure why it would happen in four years time. Maybe guys like Murray/Stander will look to leave after the 2023 RWC when they have only a year or two left to play, but not before it I'd say.

Wegians89

1. McGrath
2. Scannell
3. Furlong
4. Thornbury
5. Ryan captain
6. Sob (Connacht)
7. Vdf
8. Doris/ Deegan
9. Marmion
10. Byrne
11. Stockdale
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Larmour
15. Carbery
16. Delahunt
17. O Sullivan / Milne
18. Porter
19. Henderson
20. Leavy
21. Blade
22. Johnston/ frawley
23. Lowe

Thermoman12

Wegians89 wrote: »

1. McGrath
2. Scannell
3. Furlong
4. Thornbury
5. Ryan captain
6. Sob (Connacht)
7. Vdf
8. Doris/ Deegan
9. Marmion
10. Byrne
11. Stockdale
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Larmour
15. Carbery
16. Delahunt
17. O Sullivan / Milne
18. Porter
19. Henderson
20. Leavy
21. Blade
22. Johnston/ frawley
23. Lowe

Which Byrne brother are you talking about starting at out half? There’s two

Dubinusa

McGrath
Mcburney
Furlong
Ryan
Thornbury
SOB Connacht
Leavy
Deegan
Murray
Carberry
Lowe
Goggin
Ringrose
Stockdale
Larmour

Scannell
EOS
Porter
Henderson
Doris
Blade
RB
Nash.

???

arsebiscuits1

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Which Byrne brother are you talking about starting at out half? There’s two

He's talking about Matthew Byrne.

He plays under 12s for Old Wesley

aloooof

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think so tbh. We have yet to see this happen up to now, I'm not sure why it would happen in four years time. Maybe guys like Murray/Stander will look to leave after the 2023 RWC when they have only a year or two left to play, but not before it I'd say.

We've seen it with Zebo, but it is the only exception. And wasn't a guaranteed starter. Presumably, the logic there was he could command more before the RWC than after it. Let's hope you're right tho!

Wegians89

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Which Byrne brother are you talking about starting at out half? There’s two

Which ever one is starting for Leinster at the time

Dubinusa

After this rwc, we lose a few players almost immediately, within 6 months.
Best
SOB
RK?
All 3 will be done as international players imo.
The summer tour in 2020 will see a few players blooded.
Maybe S.O.B 2
Thornbury
Deegan/ Doris
Goggin, if form persists
Tom Farrell.
So the 2021 6nations squad would most likely have 2 to 5 newcomers.
2021 we go to NZ on tour.
Fantastic opportunity to blood another 3 or 4.
Attrition and form will likely have the squad looking fairly different at this stage.
I can see Moore being involved again, depending on his form and fitness.
I also think Ruddock and Jordi will be under pressure to make the squad. Not saying they won't, but new coaching and the emergence of new players will pressure them.
By 2021, I think the 9 situation will be nuts as Murray will be guaranteed his spot, but it's going to be a crapshoot for the back up.
Luke McGrath, Cooney, Marmion, Blade and JGP will be in the mix.
I think Sexton will be in the squad or maybe still starting. But his time will be coming to an end.
At this stage, I think Earl's will be long gone. With Lowe qualified and Earl's being 34.
Healy too may be done and could even be retired.
At that point, Jack McGrath looks to be the frontrunner with Kilcoyne, Cronin. Buckley and EOS? in contention.
Toner will probably be done also!
A lot will happen shortly after the rwc.
I think ROG will be involved in the coaching set up too.

Thermoman12

Dubinusa wrote: »

After this rwc, we lose a few players almost immediately, within 6 months.
Best
SOB
RK?
All 3 will be done as international players imo.
The summer tour in 2020 will see a few players blooded.
Maybe S.O.B 2
Thornbury
Deegan/ Doris
Goggin, if form persists
Tom Farrell.
So the 2021 6nations squad would most likely have 2 to 5 newcomers.
2021 we go to NZ on tour.
Fantastic opportunity to blood another 3 or 4.
Attrition and form will likely have the squad looking fairly different at this stage.
I can see Moore being involved again, depending on his form and fitness.
I also think Ruddock and Jordi will be under pressure to make the squad. Not saying they won't, but new coaching and the emergence of new players will pressure them.
By 2021, I think the 9 situation will be nuts as Murray will be guaranteed his spot, but it's going to be a crapshoot for the back up.
Luke McGrath, Cooney, Marmion, Blade and JGP will be in the mix.
I think Sexton will be in the squad or maybe still starting. But his time will be coming to an end.
At this stage, I think Earl's will be long gone. With Lowe qualified and Earl's being 34.
Healy too may be done and could even be retired.
At that point, Jack McGrath looks to be the frontrunner with Kilcoyne, Cronin. Buckley and EOS? in contention.
Toner will probably be done also!
A lot will happen shortly after the rwc.
I think ROG will be involved in the coaching set up too.

Don’t like the way you think JGP will be involved, he’s not Irish and he’ll be preventing other Irish players coming through, that 3 year rule is absolutely ridiculous, just because you’ve lived in the country for three years doesn’t make you Irish, it’s unfair to the people who are actually irish and dreamed of playing for Ireland since they were a child, he’s just a NZ reject

salmocab

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Don’t like the way you think JGP will be involved, he’s not Irish and he’ll be preventing other Irish players coming through, that 3 year rule is absolutely ridiculous, just because you’ve lived in the country for three years doesn’t make you Irish, it’s unfair to the people who are actually irish and dreamed of playing for Ireland since they were a child, he’s just a NZ reject

Actually I think this is a debate we’ve not had before. Surely it’s time to have it now?

troyzer

salmocab wrote: »

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Don’t like the way you think JGP will be involved, he’s not Irish and he’ll be preventing other Irish players coming through, that 3 year rule is absolutely ridiculous, just because you’ve lived in the country for three years doesn’t make you Irish, it’s unfair to the people who are actually irish and dreamed of playing for Ireland since they were a child, he’s just a NZ reject

Actually I think this is a debate we’ve not had before. Surely it’s time to have it now?

Let's not. I don't want to get Richie started.

awec

I am pretty sure this was discussed around the previous world cup and even before that, it would be interesting if someone went and dug up the posts from back then.

Thermoman12

salmocab wrote: »

Actually I think this is a debate we’ve not had before. Surely it’s time to have it now?

We should have this debate now

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

Let's not. I don't want to get Richie started.

If you don't want to read a poster, put him/her on ignore.

Thermoman12

awec wrote: »

I am pretty sure this was discussed around the previous world cup and even before that, it would be interesting if someone went and dug up the posts from back then.

I wasn’t on boards back then unfortunately so I missed out

Thermoman12

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you don't want to read a poster, put him/her on ignore.

Why? sorry I wasn’t around 2 years ago for the debate

thomond2006

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Why? sorry I wasn’t around 2 years ago for the debate

I wasn't referencing you.

I don't think there's much debate to be had since the rule was changed to five years. Five years is more than enough to qualify imo. It eliminates project players for the most part but allows for fair circumstances, such as a player who moved to their new country before becoming professional etc.

Thermoman12

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wasn't referencing you.

I don't think there's much debate to be had since the rule was changed to five years. Five years is more than enough to qualify imo.

Pity he’s not a part of the 5 year rule

salmocab

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Possible starting 15 for 2023 World Cup?

14) James Lowe

Why Lowe but not JGP?

Thermoman12

salmocab wrote: »

Why Lowe but not JGP?

Good question, I change my mind, I should put Lowe out of the equation if I’m going to be consistent and fair, even though Lowe is a player I really like, I’d still have to put him out of it

realhorrorshow

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Possible starting 15 for 2023 World Cup?
1) Michale Milne
2) Niall Scannell
3) Tadgh Furlong
4) Ryan Baird
5) James Ryan
6) Dan Leavy
7) Josh Van De Flier
8) Caelon Doris
9) Hugh O’Sullivan
10) Harry Byrne
11) Jacob Stockdale
12) David Hawkshaw
13) Garry Ringrose
14) James Lowe
15) Jordan Larmour

16) Dan Sheehan
17) Josh Wycherley
18) Ryan Lomas
19) Tadgh Beirne
20) Max Deegan
21) Jonny Stewart
22) Jake Flannery
23) Sean French

It’s very hard to make predictions about young players this far out unless they are a freak like James Ryan. I saw Ryan Lomas getting minced in the scrum in a bottom of the table AIL 2A clash a few weeks ago.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wasn't referencing you.

I don't think there's much debate to be had since the rule was changed to five years. Five years is more than enough to qualify imo. It eliminates project players for the most part but allows for fair circumstances, such as a player who moved to their new country before becoming professional etc.

We say that until projectplaeyrs 2.0 start. IE the South African kids Munster signed as teenagers. It may not be us who does it (Montpellier have their deal with Grey College and various French teams have pacific based scouts). But when teenagers start ending up in national academies we will be back at this ****.

Until then, peace.

Thermoman12

realhorrorshow wrote: »

It’s very hard to make predictions about young players this far out unless they are a freak like James Ryan. I saw Ryan Lomas getting minced in the scrum in a bottom of the table AIL 2A clash a few weeks ago.

Ye fair, I was a bit stuck on which prop sub I should put in, who would you put in instead of Lomas ?

Thermoman12

realhorrorshow wrote: »

It’s very hard to make predictions about young players this far out unless they are a freak like James Ryan. I saw Ryan Lomas getting minced in the scrum in a bottom of the table AIL 2A clash a few weeks ago.

Ryan Baird is meant to be rated better than James Ryan at underage level, interesting times ahead

irelandrover

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Ye fair, I was a bit stuck on which prop sub I should put in, who would you put in instead of Lomas ?

THere is another young enough prop that i think could make it instead, a guy called Andrew Porter.

Thermoman12

irelandrover wrote: »

THere is another young enough prop that i think could make it instead, a guy called Andrew Porter.

Oh yeah forgot about him, good point

troyzer

errlloyd wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wasn't referencing you.

I don't think there's much debate to be had since the rule was changed to five years. Five years is more than enough to qualify imo. It eliminates project players for the most part but allows for fair circumstances, such as a player who moved to their new country before becoming professional etc.

We say that until projectplaeyrs 2.0 start. IE the South African kids Munster signed as teenagers. It may not be us who does it (Montpellier have their deal with Grey College and various French teams have pacific based scouts). But when teenagers start ending up in national academies we will be back at this ****.

Until then, peace.

The French have been doing it for years now. Look at Uini Atonio.

Squidgy Black

irelandrover wrote: »

THere is another young enough prop that i think could make it instead, a guy called Andrew Porter.

Nah he'll be 27 by the time 2023 rolls around, well over the hill and useless by then. Obviously Lomas (who's not even in the full academy at Connacht yet) will over take him.

salmocab

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Oh yeah forgot about him, good point

You were thinking of young THs and you forgot Porter but Lomas came to mind?

Dog Botherer

Ah, I see it's that time of year again where the Ireland thread becomes the "Oooh, look at me, I watch underage rugby!" thread.

The Lost Sheep

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Ah, I see it's that time of year again where the Ireland thread becomes the "Oooh, look at me, I watch underage rugby!" thread.

Not even i watch underage rugby i watch maybe 4 maybe a few more leinster schools play rugby.....

Dog Botherer

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not even i watch underage rugby i watch maybe 4 maybe a few more leinster schools play rugby.....

Was mostly referring to the posters ditching everyone over the age of 25 from their squads in favour of lads doing their leaving cert this year!

Thermoman12

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Ah, I see it's that time of year again where the Ireland thread becomes the "Oooh, look at me, I watch schools rugby!" thread.

Well you can’t mention some of the players I name are bad if you don’t even watch under age rugby, a lot of people watch it

Thermoman12

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Was mostly referring to the posters ditching everyone over the age of 25 from their squads in favour of lads doing their leaving cert this year!

I don’t think you realize how bright the future is for Irish rugby, the amount of talent coming through is ridiculous

salmocab

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Well you can’t mention some of the players I name are bad if you don’t even watch under age rugby, a lot of people watch it

Nobody said any of the players mentioned wouldn’t make it or even knock the players in fact your the only one that made any judgement.