P2P Lending

FFVII

Peter File wrote: »

MINTOS!

Ooh, you didn't have to say.

I knew straight away. Their lack of info is an art form.

Shelflife

FFVII wrote: »

I didn't want to say name

That’s a pity, always found him to be knowledgeable and sensible.

Name change and the closing of account seems odd though.

retalivity

Mintos wrote:

Dear XXXXX,

You are receiving this email because you have invested in loans issued by Finko in Ukraine, Russia or Armenia.

Recently Finko experienced a technical issue with loans which were planned to be extended, and instead were bought-back. The actions for extending a loan or buy-back are implemented as API requests in systems, commanding one or another action. Due to a wrong API request, Finko accumulated an unexpected amount of loans being bought-back and that way created additional volume of pending payments for its investors.

At this point, this issue is being fixed by separating the investments which were bought-back and using them to invest in the same loans that were extended to the borrowers. It means that the amount you see in your account as pending from Finko, will decrease.

The principal amount from the loan that was mistakenly bought back will now be invested in the same loan that was placed on the marketplace after it was bought back. This process will happen automatically in the next 24h.

It might not be possible to revert all pending amounts which happened due to this issue, therefore the remaining money from pending payments will be added to your account balance when the loan matures, including the interest earned during that time.

We thank you for your patience as we investigated the issue of sudden unexpected pending payments amounts by Finko.

Finko are also running a 2% cashback campaign on something called 'flow forwarding', that sounds dodgy as hell. Coupled with the above, i will be steering well clear of them.

ShoulderChip

retalivity wrote: »

Finko are also running a 2% cashback campaign on something called 'flow forwarding', that sounds dodgy as hell. Coupled with the above, i will be steering well clear of them.

How worried are people of their outstanding p2p

Peter File

ShoulderChip wrote: »

How worried are people of their outstanding p2p

Very worried. Trying to exit but no buyers for loans.

Peter File

Mintos update
We are in close contact with the lending companies on Mintos. As the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic continue influencing businesses and people globally, companies are working to modify, adjust and put in place different solutions that will ease the effects of the pandemic.

Many companies are sharing announcements for their clients and investors, and we will be adding these announcements here, with updates over the next days

2016

ct5amr2ig1nfhp wrote: »

How do you think p2p look in the a few months time, given the corona virus problem? People are going to struggle to repay their loans if they cannot get to work etc.

I have already started to reduce my p2p portfolio. Most of my AI portfolios are now disabled.

This is a massive stress test for p2p lending for sure.

A large % of loans are going to have problems.

I'm about 50:50 Mintos and FLender. Will be interested how this pans out.

These are high interest loans for a reason guys!

One More Toy

Lots of loans at 20 per cent discount on mintos, people are getting worried

macannrb

One More Toy wrote: »

Lots of loans at 20 per cent discount on mintos, people are getting worried

Personally I would be running for the hills. The more is a reason why the interest rates are high in these sites. It’s because If the default risk. If you have to sell at a loss, it may be the better option. That’s considering the many of the loans are basically for payday lending. Those guys who use them will largely be in zero hours contracts.... and will now not be getting pay checks. Sure there is some social welfare in some of these countries but not to the same degree as here.

FFVII

All in while others are all out.

That's when the real money is to be made.

Buyer's paradise the last couple of weeks all over the place.

littlevillage

Mintos allowing the LO's to offer what appears to be unlimited loan extensions to borrowers who have current loans.

Not the end of the world, just means that investors will have to wait longer for our money (But there will be more of it as the loans will be same rate and longer term).

Economic situation accross the world is worrying though and the big worry is that a few more LO's go to the wall and we the investors, have to carry the loss.

I have been able to sell loans on the secondary market in the last hour (-10% discount), soo somebody is obviously buying.

I'm more worried about other P2P portals, where its not as easy to sell loans.

macannrb

littlevillage wrote: »

Mintos allowing the LO's to offer what appears to be unlimited loan extensions to borrowers who have current loans.

Not the end of the world, just means that investors will have to wait longer for our money

unlimited extensions suggests there are few ways to recover the loans, and as the borrowers have no way to earn money there is probably no way for them to repay. Italy and other places have provided borrowers with 3 months off repaying their loans and mortgages. A court would be very unpopular if they started granting orders to throw people in debtors prisons due to the pandemic.

There is no Nama for these loans, so its extend and pretend.

Jim2007

littlevillage wrote: »

Economic situation accross the world is worrying though and the big worry is that a few more LO's go to the wall and we the investors, have to carry the loss.

At this stage, sadly there is little you can do but learn the lesson for the future: you are not an investor, your an amateur lender operating in the subprime lending market - taking on what the professionals reject...

sk8board

I always had pretty low risk settings on the auto-invest (in the context of P2P being pretty risky), seeing around 10% returns, and we’ll spread across a lot of LOs, all with buyback guarantees, the latter guarantees will be really tested I’d say.

I’d welcome the payment holidays - at the end of the day governments are offering it across the board to mortgages and corporate loans, so it’s fair that lending platforms would extend the same option in the hope it prevents LOs from going under.
It’s definitely a (necessary) stress test for the industry over the coming months, but I haven’t changed a thing personally.
The next few months will tell a lot as more loans become delinquent.

Jim2007

sk8board wrote: »

I’d welcome the payment holidays - at the end of the day governments are offering it across the board to mortgages and corporate loans, so it’s fair that lending platforms would extend the same option in the hope it prevents LOs from going under.

It's not about being fair is about ensuring that economies recover and pumping money into sub prime lending would just be putting good money after bad. Sub prime always goes to the wall in theses cases, so pointless.

sk8board

Jim2007 wrote: »

It's not about being fair is about ensuring that economies recover and pumping money into sub prime lending would just be putting good money after bad. Sub prime always goes to the wall in theses cases, so pointless.

I think you’re conflating pumping money into sectors, with giving payment holidays to individuals and businesses.
Anyone who got into P2P as some sort of easy money without acknowledging the risk will get burned as I assume they also play in Loans with silly interest rates outside the buyback guarantees.

I’m interested to see how it plays out.

Have you ever invested in P2P?

Jim2007

sk8board wrote: »

Have you ever invested in P2P?

There is no such thing as investing is sub prime debt! And no I have not lent any money to someone in P2P because the rates are too low given risks, as some people are about to learn.

On the other hand I’ve had a lot of experience in the securitization of MBS, so there is no way I’m ever going to touch it.

inel

So today's news is that the licence was revoked from Varks in Armenia (Finko group)..

Wondering what implications this might have for Mintos platform itself.

littlevillage

inel wrote: »

So today's news is that the licence was revoked from Varks in Armenia (Finko group)..

Wondering what implications this might have for Mintos platform itself.

It seems Mintos lenders are losing licenses all over the place at the moment. They are falling foul of increased regulation of the sector in various countries.

The implications are good and bad.

good : because its now an increasingly regulated sector and we must assume the better for it

bad : because the large interest rates the LO's were achieving were clearly being gleaned off some pretty high risk stuff ...and regulation will probably put an end to that and result in lower returns for investors.

FFVII

https://blog.mintos.com/varks-licence-revoked-in-armenia/

Update.

Run down like Monego seems like...though I'm not sure what's up with the D downgrade for Finko?

retalivity

News roundup

Grupeer suspend payments to investors indefinitely due to Covid-19

Mintos introduces fee for selling on Secondary Market

Peter File

Mintos are posting lots of updates now. The latest one is from Varks Armenia who say that all lenders will get their principle back but not interest or late payment fees.

retalivity

FWIW, i've cashed out about 20% of my mintos portfolio, and have turned off all auto-invest strategies. So my cash pile in mintos has been (slowly) increasing with daily interest & capital repayments, which I am then manually investing on the second market in highly reduced loans. Sticking only to A/B rated lenders, long-term, lower-interest loans (i.e. excluding short term loans). It's small enough money that I have reinvested, but I am getting 10-20% off on loans that are paying regularly enough, but people just want out.

Jim2007

retalivity wrote: »

FWIW, i've cashed out about 20% of my mintos portfolio, and have turned off all auto-invest strategies. So my cash pile in mintos has been (slowly) increasing with daily interest & capital repayments, which I am then manually investing on the second market in highly reduced loans. Sticking only to A/B rated lenders, long-term, lower-interest loans (i.e. excluding short term loans). It's small enough money that I have reinvested, but I am getting 10-20% off on loans that are paying regularly enough, but people just want out.

Wake up! We are at the beginning of a recession that is likely to be the worst in the last 100 years and you can't see why trying to get out of sub prime lending is a good idea.

You are buying loans that were rejected first by the professionals and secondly even by the amateurs.... You would need to be buying at a discount of 60% - 70% given the risk you are taking on.

retalivity

Jim2007 wrote: »

Wake up! We are at the beginning of a recession that is likely to be the worst in the last 100 years and you can't see why trying to get out of sub prime lending is a good idea.

You are buying loans that were rejected first by the professionals and secondly even by the amateurs.... You would need to be buying at a discount of 60% - 70% given the risk you are taking on.

Don't worry about me....I've accounted for the risk and adjusted my investments accordingly

Jim2007

retalivity wrote: »

Don't worry about me....I've accounted for the risk and adjusted my investments accordingly

I'm not in the slightest bit worried about you.... but you asked a question that suggests that your are anything but well adjusted in your lending, because it is absolutely not an investment, that suggest that you are not seeing the situation from other sub prime lenders point of view.

littlevillage

Monthly volumes just published


https://www.p2p-banking.com/tag/loan-volume/

A challenging Month for p2p ..and the biggies like Mintos .... but they are still doing several multiples the volume of other competitors.

Amazingly some p2p's actually increased their lending Month on Month (I wonder is that just a case that they had a lousy Feb ...than anything exceptional about March)

littlevillage

retalivity wrote: »

FWIW, i've cashed out about 20% of my mintos portfolio, and have turned off all auto-invest strategies. So my cash pile in mintos has been (slowly) increasing with daily interest & capital repayments, which I am then manually investing on the second market in highly reduced loans. Sticking only to A/B rated lenders, long-term, lower-interest loans (i.e. excluding short term loans). It's small enough money that I have reinvested, but I am getting 10-20% off on loans that are paying regularly enough, but people just want out.

Probably good value to be had on the Secondary market, if you have big balls and plenty of patience .. (if you do) good luck to you :cool:

I don't, soo I have bailed out.

My thinking is that Mintos is going to eventually block withdrawals like some other p2p's have done .... I don't want my money locked up indefinitely ... there may well be other better things to invest in, very soon.

FFVII

flycd wrote: »

Which P2Ps have blocked withdrawals? I’d be livid if I couldn’t access my uninvested amounts. That can’t be legal.

Read back, it's posted on this page.

Jim2007

flycd wrote: »

Which P2Ps have blocked withdrawals? I’d be livid if I couldn’t access my uninvested amounts. That can’t be legal.

Yes, of course it is legal. You are not dealing with a bank nor any kind of state guarantee system, you are just an ordinary creditor of a company, nothing more. The usual insolvency rules apply - the company must stop operations at the point where the directors are aware that the company is insolvent. To continue operations beyond that point could lead to criminal prosecutions, so don't expect the directors to do anything other that freeze your accounts at that point.

Peter File

Another lender in trouble on mintos today. Capital services a b rated lender

dotsman

Anybody having trouble with fastinvest?

I have been waiting over a month for them to process a withdrawal. Unlike Grupeer etc which is stating they are suspending transactions during pandemic, Fastinvest support is just saying that they are experiencing minor delays (taking a day or 2 to process is a "minor delay", a week is a long time, but a month and still nothing processed is just fraud). All the while they are increasing their interest rates, and have doubled down on the marketing.

littlevillage

New lending Volumes continue to crash thru the floor

https://www.p2p-banking.com/tag/loan-volume/

I got out of Mintos completely .... think I have about €10 still there in late loans now....from a high of €30k in July last year. Just by sheer good fortune, I started shutting my investment down in Dec 2019. phew!! ��

Still have a bit of cash in DoFinance ...they have had a few webinars and been upfront about having liquidity problems, their solution is to drip feed a % of all payout requests during Covid-19 in order to save the business from going under.

Its not ideal.... but we are where we are, I suppose ? I think they have so far given me back about 20% of my outstanding balance ....in 1 & 2 % payouts over the last Month

littlevillage

For anybody feeling sorry for themselves, have a read of Jørgen's travails :-(

https://financiallyfree.eu/portfolio-update-april-2020/#more-6276


I think he'll basically have to go back to work when Covid-19 is over as he'll be wiped out !

retalivity

My mintos repayments are still coming through steady enough, ive turned off the auto-invest and withdraw when it gets over €100 or so, I have further reduced my mintos portfolio to about 55% of what it was a few months ago, will continue to dripfeed money out of it.
The only other platform I am invested in is grupeer...thats not looking good at all, everything frozen and taking about 'return to stability' in 2 years. Smells like another Envestio/Keutzal...

littlevillage

Yeah, Jørgen talks about Grupeer and Fastinvest in his April news round up

dotsman

littlevillage wrote: »

Yeah, Jørgen talks about Grupeer and Fastinvest in his April news round up

For now, he is simply describing it as a delay. But I have been waiting for over a month now.

Looks more and more like a scam.

Wegian

littlevillage wrote: »

New lending Volumes continue to crash thru the floor

https://www.p2p-banking.com/tag/loan-volume/

I got out of Mintos completely .... think I have about €10 still there in late loans now....from a high of €30k in July last year. Just by sheer good fortune, I started shutting my investment down in Dec 2019. phew!! ��

Still have a bit of cash in DoFinance ...they have had a few webinars and been upfront about having liquidity problems, their solution is to drip feed a % of all payout requests during Covid-19 in order to save the business from going under.

Its not ideal.... but we are where we are, I suppose ? I think they have so far given me back about 20% of my outstanding balance ....in 1 & 2 % payouts over the last Month

That’s an incredibly well timed exit strategy

I see Mr Financially Free is putting money into the Mintos Secondary market

Mintos seem to be paying out in a very timely manner thankfully

littlevillage

Wegian wrote: »

That’s an incredibly well timed exit strategy

I see Mr Financially Free is putting money into the Mintos Secondary market

Mintos seem to be paying out in a very timely manner thankfully

Yeah, I had to sell some loans on the Secondary market with a decent (-10 to -15%) discount.... But just glad to get out.

Think Jorgen is asking for trouble buying on the Mintos secondary market. Its looks tempting because of discounts but the risk of defaults by Borrower/loan Originator/Mintos themselves ... is just too high

Jim2007

Wegian wrote: »

I see Mr Financially Free is putting money into the Mintos Secondary market

Have you got independent confirmation of that or is it just his waffle? Now is the time for a clear head and clinical decisions not listening to a bunch of talking heads.

Wegian

Jim2007 wrote: »

Have you got independent confirmation of that or is it just his waffle? Now is the time for a clear head and clinical decisions not listening to a bunch of talking heads.

Just his waffle

Wegian

littlevillage wrote: »

Yeah, I had to sell some loans on the Secondary market with a decent (-10 to -15%) discount.... But just glad to get out.

Think Jorgen is asking for trouble buying on the Mintos secondary market. Its looks tempting because of discounts but the risk of defaults by Borrower/loan Originator/Mintos themselves ... is just too high

Likewise I took a 5 to 7% discount on the overdue loans but glad to be fully out now

Jim2007

Wegian wrote: »

Just his waffle

Unlike the stock picker newsletter stuff there really is no regulation in this area... So no way to reliably check anything.

macannrb

Jim2007 wrote: »

Have you got independent confirmation of that or is it just his waffle? Now is the time for a clear head and clinical decisions not listening to a bunch of talking heads.

Not sure if someone else investing now is a any better than talking heads.

The fundamentals is that the obligors are basically lenders to the weakest in society. The same weakest have been hit hardest as they haven’t been able to work in the gig economy, haven’t been able to get tips and possibly haven’t been able to qualify for social welfare in the countries that these lenders operate in.

And we are talking about unsecured lending. Some level of security would make a big difference on the recovery rates.

The other issue with these payday lenders is that as the interest rates are so high, if someone goes into default it is very tough to get back on track. So delinquency rates will be sky high across the obligors lending books.

Buying in to something that has all the hall marks of its last gasps of air should be something you base a decision on because someone else invests in it, regardless of whether that person is Warren Buffett.

dotsman

Fast Invest have eventually acknowledged the massive delays in withdrawals (I'm waiting 6 weeks for mine).

https://www.fastinvest.com/en/blog/remuneration-for-over-pending-payouts

Not sure what to make of it. There's still no transparency or reason offered for the ridiculous delays. Just more fancy marketing and attempt to make things appear relatively fine.

jams100

I have been using linked finance over the past 2 years, things seem relatively fine. About 50% of the loans are on a payment break which makes sense, hopefully with construction etc starting up again that'll improve but no issues re withdrawing

RevenueLand

Fastinvest has never disclosed its loan originators. There are more transparent platforms and especially in times like these it is better to stay away from smaller and mysterious P2Ps in my opinion.

Kevhog1988

Is now the time to avoid p2p lending with the uncertainty of covid?

RevenueLand

P2p lending is rightly included in the list of rather risky investments.
Fortunately, sometimes the returns are also well adjusted to the risk.
I think that if I do not invest "also" in P2P lending during this (or the next) crisis, I am going to reduce my total diversification. If I avoid P2P I will focus more on financial markets, ETFs, Bonds and other instruments that still bring a degree of risk and volatility to my global portfolio.
So, no, I don't think that during a crisis (this one like many others to come) I should stop investing in loans. I''d rather reduce the more daring P2Ps and focus on what I believe has a reasonable risk/return ratio.

Jim2007

RevenueLand wrote: »

P2p lending is rightly included in the list of rather risky investments.
Fortunately, sometimes the returns are also well adjusted to the risk.
I think that if I do not invest "also" in P2P lending during this (or the next) crisis, I am going to reduce my total diversification. If I avoid P2P I will focus more on financial markets, ETFs, Bonds and other instruments that still bring a degree of risk and volatility to my global portfolio.
So, no, I don't think that during a crisis (this one like many others to come) I should stop investing in loans. I''d rather reduce the more daring P2Ps and focus on what I believe has a reasonable risk/return ratio.

Except you are not investing in anything, you are an amateur lending your money to subprime borrowers, people the professionals don’t want to touch. You’ve got limited information about the borrower, no ability to enforce the debt, no ability to set the rules and you are the only one of the three players who stand to loose....

The odds are stacked against you.