Itinerant children attending school

Andy From Sligo

just a curious thing - about Itinerant children that attend school in Ireland .

I dont know what the situation is like in UK but as I were growing up in the UK and certainly before I left in the 90's Itinerant (or gypsies as we used to eloquently called them) children never attended school - I dont know whether that was the fault of the parents not sending their children to school or whether it was just that the UK schools never allowed Itinerant children .

but I have had both my 2 children in Ireland and they grew up attending schools right from Primary through to secondary there were Itinerant children in their class or in their years and mixed in fine. - but I still never got to the crux of how itinerant children attended school in Ireland but never went to school in the UK. why the 2 countries were different.

Please dont mis-read this post by the way. I think its a fantastic idea that the itinerant children attend schools over here in Ireland just as any other school aged child and that they mix fine with the other children. Well certainly my children used to say they were no bother at all and were friendly and mixed and intelligent.

biko

Is there a question in there somewhere?

Hector Savage

This will end well ..

freshpopcorn

Hector Savage wrote: »

This will end well ..

I'm here!

tupenny

"A fantastic idea"
Indeed. Equal oppurtunities is a great idea

ignorance is strength

biko wrote: »

Is there a question in there somewhere?

"but I still never got to the crux of how itinerant children attended school in Ireland but never went to school in the UK. why the 2 countries were different[?]"

Noveight

In my experience traveler kids attend school here in Ireland until they’ve their Junior Cert done. Even then their attendance was quite poor, maybe missing 2 days out of 5. They had no interest in furthering themselves with education nor benefitting from it, it was rather an obligation.

Graces7

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just a curious thing - about Itinerant children that attend school in Ireland .

I dont know what the situation is like in UK but as I were growing up in the UK and certainly before I left in the 90's Itinerant (or gypsies as we used to eloquently called them) children never attended school - I dont know whether that was the fault of the parents not sending their children to school or whether it was just that the UK schools never allowed Itinerant children .


Please dont mis-read this post by the way. I think its a fantastic idea that the itinerant children attend schools over here in Ireland just as any other school aged child and that they mix fine with the other children. Well certainly my children used to say they were no bother at all and were friendly and mixed and intelligent.

Well said and thank you. The only way to and hope of any peace is for the children to mix and to be allowed to reach their full potential whoever they are

Omackeral

biko wrote: »

Is there a question in there somewhere?

It's an Andy From Sligo thread. It's the equivalent of emptying a load of scrabble letters onto a page.

Also, itinerant? Why don't you just say Traveller?

Of course, all children of schoolgoing age are required to attend school both here & in the UK.
I don't know where you got the impression that they don't?
In fact the UK is much stricter about attendance at school than Ireland seems to be.

Strange notions you have

freshpopcorn

Well I know when I went to school traveller children had attendance issues at school especially in secondary school.
Compared to years ago there attendance has improved a lot tough. Most in my experience now attend primary school until the end but the issue could improve a lot with secondary school.
Now when I went to primary school the traveller was never singled out or sent to the back of the room and people did play with him. Unlike what John Connors would lead you to believe. The guy never caused much trouble. However when he went into secondary school he slowly drifted away and didn't do his Junior cert.
They do have a different lifestyle tough in my experience the guys seem to go off doing stuff such as tarmac and selling goods from an early age and the women are meant to stay at home and play house after getting married young.
Now things have improved a lot in the last few years more seem to be doing LCA or doing the Leaving Cert with youth reach.

Foxhound38

Part of the problem historically has been traveller parents taking kids out of school after or in some cases even before primary school has been completed. There's a couple of reasons for this: many traveller parents themselves have had extremely negative experiences in their own schooling when by default travellers were put in special classes and outcomes were almost built to be low, and bullying by both peers and teachers were rife.

Many traveller families also suffer from low or absent literacy rates in the adult population so that makes helping their children with schoolwork difficult. Also high unemployment in that community makes school clothes, trips, uniforms etc a significant expense and often there are gaps in knowledge about services available to assist with that.

There are cultural issues too - often traveller children are expected to start taking on adult responsibilities and roles in their early teens and school gets in the way of that. Women are often expected to get married and have children young, so again education gets in the way of that. On that, it is a thing that many traveller communities would be concerned about traveller girls mixing and fraternizing outside of their communities for obvious reasons, and I have read somewhere that secular sex education outside of the home is a particular worry and stigma.

On the other side, schools traditionally weren't in too much of a hurry to chase traveller children who stopped attending and often principles weren't too happy about having them at their schools in the first place. Part of this is down to perceived behavioral problems that come with it, part of it is the added stress of keeping track of children with a nomadic lifestyle, part of it is just prejudice.

I'm no apologist for the worst aspects of traveller culture (and there ARE definitely a cultural problems regardless of what John Connors and Pavee Point have to say about it - look at the prison, basic literacy, drug addiction and teen pregnancy ratios compared with the settled population and tell me with a bare face that there isn't a huge cultural issue here), but I'm convinced a dedicated (and in the case of non-compliance by either school or family, ruthless) campaign in terms of ensuring at least leaving cert is attained, particularly by traveller girls could blunt some of the bigger problems that we are seeing currently within a generation.

baylah17

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Part of the problem historically has been traveller parents taking kids out of school after or in some cases even before primary school has been completed. There's a couple of reasons for this: many traveller parents themselves have had extremely negative experiences in their own schooling when by default travellers were put in special classes and outcomes were almost built to be low, and bullying by both peers and teachers were rife.

Many traveller families also suffer from low or absent literacy rates in the adult population so that makes helping their children with schoolwork difficult. Also high unemployment in that community makes school clothes, trips, uniforms etc a significant expense and often there are gaps in knowledge about services available to assist with that.

There are cultural issues too - often traveller children are expected to start taking on adult responsibilities and roles in their early teens and school gets in the way of that. Women are often expected to get married and have children young, so again education gets in the way of that. On that, it is a thing that many traveller communities would be concerned about traveller girls mixing and fraternizing outside of their communities for obvious reasons, and I have read somewhere that secular sex education outside of the home is a particular worry and stigma.

On the other side, schools traditionally weren't in too much of a hurry to chase traveller children who stopped attending and often principles weren't too happy about having them at their schools in the first place. Part of this is down to perceived behavioral problems that come with it, part of it is the added stress of keeping track of children with a nomadic lifestyle, part of it is just prejudice.

I'm no apologist for the worst aspects of traveller culture (and there ARE definitely a cultural problems regardless of what John Connors and Pavee Point have to say about it - look at the prison, basic literacy, drug addiction and teen pregnancy ratios compared with the settled population and tell me with a bare face that there isn't a huge cultural issue here), but I'm convinced a dedicated (and in the case of non-compliance by either school or family, ruthless) campaign in terms of ensuring at least leaving cert is attained, particularly by traveller girls could blunt some of the bigger problems that we are seeing currently within a generation.

Excellent sensible post

Andy From Sligo

Omackeral wrote: »

It's an Andy From Sligo thread. It's the equivalent of emptying a load of scrabble letters onto a page.

Also, itinerant? Why don't you just say Traveller?

ok then - if it makes you less offended ... Traveller

Andy From Sligo

I think they do go onto further education quite a few of them - my Daughter is in AIT and I think she said there were quite a few itinerants (sorry Travelers) studying there

Andy From Sligo

Omackeral wrote: »

It's an Andy From Sligo thread. It's the equivalent of emptying a load of scrabble letters onto a page..

good description that haha

Omackeral

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok then - if it makes you less offended ... Traveller

Doesn't offend me, just wondering why you used that word. Don't hear it all that much. Also, why did you include a selfie?

Andy From Sligo

Omackeral wrote: »

Doesn't offend me, just wondering why you used that word. Don't hear it all that much. Also, why did you include a selfie?

I hear it used a lot where I am ... Travelling Community is another term I hear used.

I look good in that selfie

I live next door to a family of itinerants. Lovely couple and their kids are ok but the emphasis on traditional education is incredibly poor. I'd say the kids miss 1-2 days of school per week. Obviously some weeks are better/worse than others but it seems to me the 3 R's don't hold much value to them

Spanish Eyes

Control the women. Do not let them get above their station. Take them out of school before they get notions, and marry them off at sixteen. That happens a lot.

The men learn how to tarmac and fix gutters (and a few other nefarious things) and marry the women to clean the house and have loads of babbies.

Someone please tell me I am wrong. I would love for them all to get a good education which is the key to freeing them from this lifestyle they have. Well many of them anyway.

All that money pumped into Pavee Point and what have we got? Does anyone see an improvement in education levels anywhere?

freshpopcorn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

All that money pumped into Pavee Point and what have we got? Does anyone see an improvement in education levels anywhere?

Compared to the past I have seen more traveller kids stick in secondary school or do things such as youth reach. However not as many have progressed on from this. I have seen the odd traveller girl/women do beauty and hair related things in colleges but they run into difficulty for a few reasons Certain people don't trust them due to bad experiences in the past and it may effect their business and another is they can be very stubborn and won't take advice. A good example of this was a few years ago when RTE did a series with Celia Holman Lee and the girls who she was trying to get to model would not listen to her about make-up/tan or how to pose. I have experienced similar.

Donald Trump

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

but I still never got to the crux of how itinerant children attended school in Ireland but never went to school in the UK.

This is going to blow your fucking mind OP but I'll have you know that the majority of Irish people attended school in Ireland but never went to school in the UK

Katgurl

We have Traveller children in the school I teach at. They do tend to finish but they are largely a nightmare to have in the school; no regard for rules or authority. One called me a fat b**ch on the corridor yesterday (am pregnant). It might not sound like much but it's not a rough school and the kids are mainly very nice and respectful.

kyogger

They have travellers at my niece school now too. Local halting site set up a mile or so from the school a year or so ago. The locals, council and finally gaurds tried to get rid of them but no use. At first they had them seperated but now they are mixed in with the rest of the kids and apparently nothing is getting done in the classroom

eviltwin

There are a few Travellers in my sons school. I can't say anything about the kids but the parents stick out a mile by their behaviour. Smoking in the school grounds, screaming and roaring at their kids, parking in the spot designated for one student who is in a wheelchair, blocking traffic.....

NewbridgeIR

Omackeral wrote: »

Also, itinerant? Why don't you just say Traveller?

What's wrong with tinker?

Hitman3000

NewbridgeIR wrote:

What's wrong with tinker?

Do they still mend pots and pans? Sure why not say nacker?

NewbridgeIR

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Do they still mend pots and pans? Sure why not say nacker?

They were plenty families with at least one tinsmith in them back in the late 1980s. They got a bit of work in my hometown repairing pots and pans. The children tended not to stay past primary school but on the whole, were no worse than some of the settled kids. Some great hurlers among them (hard b*stards) but wearing helmets was a no-no.

banie01

biko wrote: »

Is there a question in there somewhere?

Its another one of his profound thoughts
I'm starting to regret the National Broadband Plan ever being rolled out!

elperello

Travelers have now been referred to as itinerants, tinkers and nackers in this thread.
If ye want to insult travelers just go down to your local halting site and do it in person.

Your Face

Hon Sligo bai !

deco nate

He's full of bs, maybe he is fishing for his next movie. Cos this never happened, such bul****.....

Had a great night Paddy's day in Madison Square Garden watching the Mick Conlon. However an incident I witnessed that night keeps playing on my mind.

I was in a line of people waiting at the bar just to get a bottle of water, the tempature in the place was off the charts. Anyway, my ears were peeled back and I could hear this African American man cheering on a fighter as he stood about ten feet back from. A very drunken Irish man I think from Galway, joined the line behind him and start singing "Ole Ole Ole". The African American man heard his accent and asked him "Are you from Ireland"? To which the drunken Irish man replied "Obviously" The man said "Oh i'm Irish" the drunk laughed "Ye right" the man said "Well my grandfather was from Ireland and I have his name, McCarthy" the drunken fool replied "Would ye go and **** off mate you're black, you're not Irish" the man replied "So you can't be black and Irish?" The drunk said "No" and laughed. I stepped in and said "Have you ever heard of Phil Lynnott? He's black and Irish and there was a ****ing statue erected of him in Dublin city. I bet your happy to claim Muhammed Ali and Barack Obama? Even Mike Tyson has Irish in him" he stood in complete shock and put his hands on my shoulders amd said "Oh no way, you're the pie ball from Love/Hate! Can I get a selfie with you?" I took his hands off me and replied "Get your hands off me and if you take your camera out i'll make you eat it" he laughed. "I'm not joking" I said. He turned back around facing the bar innfear.

I asked Mr Mcarthy what was he having and he said an orange juice and pretzels. I got them because I was at the top of the line. We had a little chat and I explained that my grandmother is McCarthy and that it is a great high king name. I also explained about Travellers and that this drunk **** does not represent us all.

The reality is that although there was alot of mixing and intermarriage between African Americans and Irish in America it has to be said that the Irish did commit some horrible attocities against the African Americans. They were both at the bottom of the barrel and pitted against each other by the ruling classes. When the Irish got on in American soceity into politics, the police force etc they played their part in oppressing and brutalisng the African American population. Not all. Some. Some believed in equality for all ofcourse. There is a great book called "When the Irish became white" that goes into great detail about this subject.

This drunken irish man did us no favours but the proud Mr McCarthy was not turned off Irish people or Ireland. He said it was his dream to go back to Ireland, a dream his father talked about till his death.


Edit:from his fb post.

Im all on for young travellers getting an education at the very least because lets be honest, its probably their one way ticket out of palookaville. However, integration has long being an issue and probably the biggest challenge. It needs a complete buy in from parents not just on the traveller side but on the settled side. Can settled and travelling kids even be educated together really? Its probably been done but it is still a challenge.

uck51js9zml2yt

Noveight wrote: »

In my experience traveler kids attend school here in Ireland until they’ve their Junior Cert done. Even then their attendance was quite poor, maybe missing 2 days out of 5. They had no interest in furthering themselves with education nor benefitting from it, it was rather an obligation.

Do you generalise much?
I know someone who met his wife in college. She's a traveller.

Rubberchikken

Children in ireland are not required to attend school.
They're required to get an education.

Two different things.

Traveller children attend when they want

Andy From Sligo

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Children in ireland are not required to attend school.
They're required to get an education.

Two different things.

Traveller children attend when they want

interesting take on this - so I presume every (settled) child is required to get an education because the state care for their welfare? (is that the reason?)

but traveller children are not required to get an education???? - so the state dont care for their welfare ? - if so at what line does the state not intervene in other traveller child welfare?

Graces7

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

interesting take on this - so I presume every (settled) child is required to get an education because the state care for their welfare? (is that the reason?)

but traveller children are not required to get an education???? - so the state dont care for their welfare ? - if so at what line does the state not intervene in other traveller child welfare?

I
think I get what you mean!

Maybe not. reminds me of the old saying, " One man may lead a horse to water, a dozen cannot make him drink.. " the water being education It is there if they seek or will take it

Some of this reminds me of my mothers day, before world war 2. Girls were not valued in the same way as boys so took jobs rather than careers. She was working in a cotton mill when she was 14.

Then they introduced night school and she increased her skills and education there, really wanting it .

She got heavily criticised by older family members for not making me go out to work at 14. My brother was fine but not girls

With travellers there are strong cultural reasons

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

With travellers there are strong cultural reasons

With Travellers, there's excuses. Culture is just the excuse given to allow their parents/grandparents to mismanage the future of their children.

It's past time for the negative aspects of traveller "culture" to be banned, and for them to be forcibly encouraged to join a modern Ireland. No problem with them keeping and promoting a unique culture, but ffs, lets move on from the dark ages.

I do teen/adult literacy classes for the traveller community in my area. It's not a lack of intelligence or a lack of interest that holds them back (some of them are very intelligent, and just need someone to be patient and explain from multiple angles). It's not even the lack of opportunity. It's their families dragging them away from education and preventing them from becoming something 'better'.

I have students (in their early 20s) who are ostracized by the community here because they got regular jobs, and are working hard on improving themselves doing speech classes, literacy or computer classes.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

It's past time for the negative aspects of traveller "culture" to be banned, and for them to be forcibly encouraged to join a modern Ireland. No problem with them keeping and promoting a unique culture, but ffs, lets move on from the dark ages.

What specific things would you ban, though, and how successful would it be. Usually banning something simply has the effect of making it more attractive. Especially when there's no penalty which someone who says "feck it, doing it anyway" fears.

eg we could raise the minimum age for marriage to 20. But they'd just keep going up north or overseas if the north changed the rules. We could refuse to pay child-benefit to parents under 20 - but that just punishes the kids. We could make it illegal to live in a caravan - but there's not a surplus of houses or landlords willing to rent to Travellers. We could ban children changing schools during the year - but that just punishes the kids again. Etc.

Every single development study I've ever heard of has found that to influence a culture is a long-term effort, and that educating women is the key to it.

GreeBo

ignorance is strength wrote: »

"but I still never got to the crux of how itinerant children attended school in Ireland but never went to school in the UK"

Maybe they are poor swimmers?

Andy From Sligo

if (and maybe its just a scaremonger hearsay and not real because I have heard the threats but never heard of it being put into action mind ye) but apparently the word on the streets that if a (settled) parent keeps their child off school for no good enough reason , or their child does not attend school or has bad attendance rate at school - then (apparently) the school will come down like a ton of bricks , send letters , send someone around the house to see the parents, get the law involve and will not leave you alone until they get a good enough reason why that child is not attending school (or getting an education as someone pointed out earlier)

however - different attitude to itinerant children is it? ...

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What specific things would you ban, though, and how successful would it be. Usually banning something simply has the effect of making it more attractive. Especially when there's no penalty which someone who says "feck it, doing it anyway" fears.

Well, I'm of the mind that if they want the benefits of Irish citizenship then they should conform to the core requirements of certain areas like minimum education (leaving certificate). Should they refuse education for themselves or their children, then cut away all welfare payments.

Money is the way to reach them.

eg we could raise the minimum age for marriage to 20. But they'd just keep going up north or overseas if the north changed the rules. We could refuse to pay child-benefit to parents under 20 - but that just punishes the kids.

Does it punish the kids? How much of the welfare provided actually reaches the children anyway?

We could make it illegal to live in a caravan - but there's not a surplus of houses or landlords willing to rent to Travellers. We could ban children changing schools during the year - but that just punishes the kids again. Etc.

I've no issue with them living in a caravan. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. There is a rather large traveller community where I'm from. I grew up around them, and went to school with them.

However, I do expect them to settle long enough for their children to gain an education, and to find proper work. Plenty of traveller families are able to settle for a few years before heading off again.

Lets be clear here. Everything can be interpreted to be punishment of the children, because any enforcement will have the adults punishing the kids, in response to the pressure. And Honestly, Traveller culture in itself is punishment to the children in so many ways.

Every single development study I've ever heard of has found that to influence a culture is a long-term effort, and that educating women is the key to it.

Which is an excuse to push it into the future. These research initiatives are too sympathetic to the culture believing its something worth preserving. I don't. When I was growing up, Irish culture centered around the bars and traditional music. Great. Now? Irish culture has evolved away from bars and has embraced a more international feel.

The only times I've seen travellers stop the ****ty lifestyle, and embrace the opportunities given to them, was when they weren't given any leeway.