223s are awsome

ninja7848

After long tought I bought a Ruger m77 mark 2. I sold my marlin 22 wmr. And i am so happy with it. Got 2 foxes tonight. And by Christ does it pack a punch. My question is. And I have read a lot about this but would like to be certain. Scope is zeroed for 100 yards. But is it best to have it 1” high at 100. I have yet to try different ammo. Using 45 Jhp.remington Umc At the moment. Would love some advice from the people using similar rifle as what works best for them. Thanks. One happy shooter.

Cass

Great rifle and will serve you well.

If memory serves the 45gr JHP UMC are flat shooting. I don't subscribe to the 1" high at 100 rule as frankly it doesn't work like people think it will for most guns. Depending on the caliber, bullet and rifle 1" high at hundred will have one of three results:

1. Will still be low at 200 yards
2. Will be almost spot on at 200 yards
3. Will be high at 200 yards

That means you won't actually have a proper zero and i prefer to find the actual drops of the rifle and either set the scope for each distance or hold over, depending on the shot.

With the Howa, 1:12 twist, the 45gr UMCs shoot flat and group well. In stronger winds they can be effected, but not so much to miss a shot out to 200 yards.

Other rounds that work well include the 55gr and the 53gr Hornady v-max. A little more expensive than the UMC at about €30 per box of 20. The Fiocchi 50gr V-max also work well but steer clear of the Fiocchi 50gr hollow point. A disaster of a round.

A laser of a round, if you can find them, are the Hornady 40gr (Fiocchi also do a 40gr but i've never seen them for sale here). The Hornady are seriously flat with little adjustment from 100 to 200 yards. I'm talking a click or two, if that. Problem is i haven't seen any for sale here in some time and when they do come into a dealer they sell out quick.

Best part of all this is you get loads of trigger time to test each round. One bit of advice, don't go over 55gr because, and i assume the Ruger is 1:12 too, anything over 55 won't work too well if at all. I tried 64gr and 75 gr in the Howa and both groups were dreadful with one round that i was sure looked slightly keyhole.

extremetaz

http://federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/

Good engine for a reference generator - according to that, with the 55grn ballistic tip round, a 180yrd zero delivers +1" at ~85yards and -1" at ~235yards.

YMWV (your mileage *will* vary) of course, but it's a good starting point for figuring our what your MPBR could be given any particular zero; you'll have no idea what it actually is of course until you try it out on the range.

ninja7848

So at the moment I’m not shooting long shots as I’m only getting to grips with it. I’m waiting on the supplier to get Hornady stock back in so I think I will leave it set for 100 yards and play a bit more with paper to get a better idea as too where it hits further out. Bloody weather has been terrible since I got it and I just want to get out. Thanks for your help as always.

Stonehall9

ninja7848 wrote: »

So at the moment I’m not shooting long shots as I’m only getting to grips with it. I’m waiting on the supplier to get Hornady stock back in so I think I will leave it set for 100 yards and play a bit more with paper to get a better idea as too where it hits further out. Bloody weather has been terrible since I got it and I just want to get out. Thanks for your help as always.

From my experience the hornady v max are the only tool for the job, incredible flat round every time, hence why they sell so fast, my local gun shop would only sell me one box !!! Being fair to his other customers he said.! Very popular round for foxing

minktrapper

ninja7848 wrote: »

After long tought I bought a Ruger m77 mark 2. I sold my marlin 22 wmr. And i am so happy with it. Got 2 foxes tonight. And by Christ does it pack a punch. My question is. And I have read a lot about this but would like to be certain. Scope is zeroed for 100 yards. But is it best to have it 1” high at 100. I have yet to try different ammo. Using 45 Jhp.remington Umc At the moment. Would love some advice from the people using similar rifle as what works best for them. Thanks. One happy shooter.

Out of curiosity. Would many foxs be out of range of the WMR. How long have you being using it?

ninja7848

I had a 22lr for 3 years and had a22wmr for 3 years. Which was great served me well but so many times a fox sits outside a good shot with the wmr. And my gun can’t say all wmr , was not up to the task.

fiestaman

I havnt mine long, a Tikka T3x 1:8 twist. Using 50gr vmax fiocchi a 50yrd zero gives me .8" high at 100, .5" low at 150 and .9" low at 200. Big drop off then after that about 3.5" at 250 and 8" at 300. Shooting at different distances is the only way. Strelok Pro is a good ballistic app to play around with, gives you an idea what the bullet is doing at different ranges.

ninja7848

fiestaman wrote: »

I havnt mine long, a Tikka T3x 1:8 twist. Using 50gr vmax fiocchi a 50yrd zero gives me .8" high at 100, .5" low at 150 and .9" low at 200. Big drop off then after that about 3.5" at 250 and 8" at 300. Shooting at different distances is the only way. Strelok Pro is a good ballistic app to play around with, gives you an idea what the bullet is doing at different ranges.

Thanks for that I have it set for 100 it groups well. But with better ammo it will group better. Can’t wait for weather to improve. The wind has not stopped since I got it. And when it does it’s dark or raining or I’m working. I hit 2 foxes the other night they were probably out over 100 yards but I didn’t measure. I know I would have had a lamp shy foxes if it were my old marlin. Roll on better weather.

Cass

fiestaman wrote: »

I havnt mine long, a Tikka T3x 1:8 twist. Using 50gr vmax fiocchi a 50yrd zero ...............

You'd think it wouldn't work, the 50gr in a fast 1:8 twist, but other than real world results you're getting it works on paper too.

fiestaman

I'm not too familiar with the 223 yet but before I purchased a lot of lads said the Tikkas are not that fussy with ammo. I knew I wanted 1:8 twist because I'd like to shoot it at long range targets with heavier bullets. I picked up a half box of the fiocchi 50gr from a local dealer they are €1 per bullet so cheap for a ballistic tip so said I'd try them. They are all I've tried so far besides American eagle 55gr fmj really just used them for first 20-30 shots and cleaning inbetween. I've got federal 55grvmax and federal 64gr sp to try also when weather is better.

This is 3 shots at 100yrds prone off bipod and then same at 200yrds.

ninja7848

fiestaman wrote: »

I'm not too familiar with the 223 yet but before I purchased a lot of lads said the Tikkas are not that fussy with ammo. I knew I wanted 1:8 twist because I'd like to shoot it at long range targets with heavier bullets. I picked up a half box of the fiocchi 50gr from a local dealer they are €1 per bullet so cheap for a ballistic tip so said I'd try them. They are all I've tried so far besides American eagle 55gr fmj really just used them for first 20-30 shots and cleaning inbetween. I've got federal 55grvmax and federal 64gr sp to try also when weather is better.

This is 3 shots at 100yrds prone off bipod and then same at 200yrds.

Fair play. That is some nice shooting. Wish I could do that. When I get better ammo and find out exactly how it is shooting I will post some photos. I feel a bit **** now lol. Still takes out rabbits and foxes with how it is at the moment.

Cass

fiestaman wrote: »

This is 3 shots at 100yrds prone off bipod and then same at 200yrds.

The 100 yard is spot on but the 200 needs work.

Don't take offense as its not intended as an insult, but going from the picture it's a 2.72" group (or 69 mm) at 200 yards. That is just shy of 1.5 MOA. the rifle should be able to do much better. 0.5 MOA is the goal. The rifle will do it but it depends on set up (shooter ability too, but you can shoot so we'll stick with set up)

This is where the ammo compatibility will come into it's own. I had this with my own 223. At 100 yards the rifle would group pretty much most ammo, even the stuff it "shouldn't". It's only when i pushed it out to 200 and 300 yards did the ammo start to show it's true colours. The reverse is also true. Some ammo that did not work well at 100 started to perform better at distance, usually the heavier stuff (64gr up to 75gr).

Your rifle is 1:8 twist. 1:9 generally prefer up to a max of 69gr. They'll shoot 75gr, but some will work well with them, and others not so much. However 1:8 goes a step further and you'll find it'll perform the best with 69 to 75 gr stuff, and even work on 80gr and 90gr, however most of that is hand loaded and iv'e never seen it in factory stuff.

My mate shoots a 1:7.75 twist and she'll do well with 55gr stuff at 100, but its hit and miss, but stick 75gr in and it's a different kettle of fish. Like your situation with the 50gr his rifle actually fires one brand of lighter stuff quite well at 100 but when he moved to 200 he got poor results and the occasional keyholing.

You should try some Hornady TAP in 60gr, Federal 64gr, and Hornady 75 gr.

Hunter456

I used to always use 1' high at 100 yards for 223 and 243 Im gone away from that now I zero for 100 yards reset my turrets and just dial in and out. When zeroed for 100 yards you always have a true zero.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

The 100 yard is spot on but the 200 needs work.

Don't take offense as its not intended as an insult, but going from the picture it's a 2.72" group (or 69 mm) at 200 yards. That is just shy of 1.5 MOA. the rifle should be able to do much better. 0.5 MOA is the goal. The rifle will do it but it depends on set up (shooter ability too, but you can shoot so we'll stick with set up)

This is where the ammo compatibility will come into it's own. I had this with my own 223. At 100 yards the rifle would group pretty much most ammo, even the stuff it "shouldn't". It's only when i pushed it out to 200 and 300 yards did the ammo start to show it's true colours. The reverse is also true. Some ammo that did not work well at 100 started to perform better at distance, usually the heavier stuff (64gr up to 75gr).

Your rifle is 1:8 twist. 1:9 generally prefer up to a max of 69gr. They'll shoot 75gr, but some will work well with them, and others not so much. However 1:8 goes a step further and you'll find it'll perform the best with 69 to 75 gr stuff, and even work on 80gr and 90gr, however most of that is hand loaded and iv'e never seen it in factory stuff.

My mate shoots a 1:7.75 twist and she'll do well with 55gr stuff at 100, but its hit and miss, but stick 75gr in and it's a different kettle of fish. Like your situation with the 50gr his rifle actually fires one brand of lighter stuff quite well at 100 but when he moved to 200 he got poor results and the occasional keyholing.

You should try some Hornady TAP in 60gr, Federal 64gr, and Hornady 75 gr.

How long should I leave the rifle to cool down after shooting a group.lets say I’m shooting groups of 3. My m77 is 1,12 twist and has 20” barrel if I’m measuring the right way. Should I expect good grouping out to 200 250 yards. Love all the info by the way.

Cass

Weight of a bullet is misleading. We all talk about twist rate and suitable weight of bullet, when if fact it's bearing surface length of the bullet that is key. Every calibre is fixed. Meaning a 40 gr bullet and 75 gr bullet in 223 have the same diameter. To make it heavier they make it longer. This is when twist rate comes into play. The longer a bullet the more bearing surface that engages the lands and grooves.




However if i were to talk to someone about suitable bullet for twist rate in terms of bearing surface i'd be talking in thousandths of an inch. For example (and excuse the numbers they are completely made up because i don't have the actual numbers) a 40 gr would not be a 40 gr but a 0.4721 bullet compared to the 0.5512 bullet (75 gr).

It's easier to talk in weights.


The reason i say weight is not ideal is because sometimes this weight to bearing surface is not always as predictable as you'd think. I'll discuss this in 308 as i know them. My rifle is 1:10 twist. It's suitable for bullets of 168 - 185 gr. They have longer bearing surfaces than 123 - 155 gr bullets so work better in the faster twist rate.

However the Lapua Scenar 155 gr is a long bullet. So long in fact that it's bearing surface length is the same as the 175 gr Sierra, and close to the 180 gr bullet. Because of this the bearing surface is longer, and the "lighter" bullet acts more like a "heavy" bullet. This means that although it's a 155 gr bullet it works, quite well, in a 1:10 twist.

It's for this reason that some rifles will shoot heavy or light bullets that seem to contradict the twist rate:bullet weight ratio.

Cass

Its a rule of thumb more so than a steadfast law, but there are a few reasons, imo, why bullets stablise/perform well in a twist rate they probably shouldn't.

1. Bullet design
2. Bullet type
3. Wrong twist rate
4. Amount/type of grooves/lands
5. Propellant
6. Seating Depth

1. Bullet design - Some bullets are made longer than the average bullet in the same "weight" category" from various other manufacturers. The twist rate ratio to bullet weight is actually incorrect. I explained this before that the actual ratio is bullet length to twist rate however as weight is easier to remember and discuss it's used in lieu of the length. So a 55gr V-Max bullet may be longer than say a 55gr HP, or FMJ. The longer bearing surface means more of the bullet engages with the lands and grooves and hence acts more like a heavier bullet. So a 55gr can act the same as say a 69gr depending on the bullet.
2. Bullet Type - The various types of bullet can effect performance. As was noted the Fiocchi HPs don't run as well as the V-max and both act diffently to the FMJ. They have causal effects on the external ballistics of a bullet. So too does the base of the bullet. Flat base can perform worse than Boat Tail in some rifles and in others cause no difference. All this means that a 50gr V-Max BT bullet may perform much better than a 50gr HP Flat Base bullet in the same rifle.
3. Wrong twist rate - Depending on the quality of the rifle/barrel and the process of manufacturing some rifles may not actually be what they say they are. I've seen rifles that were marketed as 1:9 that were actually 1:8.625 and a 1:7 that when measured was 1:7.75. I have also seen a 308 that had three different twist rates. It started as 1:11.25, went to 1:12 then finished as 1:11.5. This is down to poor quality control and will definitely have an effect on how a bullet acts in relation to internal ballistics.
4. Grooves/Lands - The amount of grooves and lands and the type or design of them will effect the internal ballistics. This is also down to the process used in manufacturing. This debate is constantly on going and there is no definitive answer on the actual effects but the theory held by some is that the more lands/grooves the more of the bullet bearing surface makes contact and the slower the bullet travels. Also whether the lands/grooves are standard, 5R, etc. So standard is cut "straight" edged while 5R have a "sloped" side meaning less surface to make contact which improves speeds, etc.
5. Propellant - Various manufacturers use various types of propellant. Look at Superformance. Burns hot, and is on average 10% faster than the equivalent in another brand. Its why people have such different opinions on their quality. Faster is not always better and if you have a certain twist with the "right" weight bullet the hot propellant can cause destablisation regardless because of the speed the bullet exits the barrel at. Its why you might get the 55gr superformance going poorly or not grouping and a 55gr V-max doing 300fps less working excellently. Effectively the same bullet, but the "excessive" speed causes stability issues.
6. Seating Depth - One of the most important aspects of any round, the depth at which the bullet is seated. I have first hand experience of this from reloading for F-Class and can personally say how a change of only four or five thousands of an inch can cause a 2.75 inch group at 1,000 yards to go to 19 inches. Depending on the quality control of the manufacturer and the rifle itself the SAMMI spec they [the manufacturer] use can cause some rounds to perform better than others and in some cases the same round to perform differently from batch to batch.

You have all experienced this at some point, possibly without even knowing it. Have you ever had a mate tell you a certain bullet runs perfectly in their rifle and because your rifle is the same caliber and twist rate you try them only to find them average to poor. That difference in performance is caused by one of the above (if we exclude shooter error).

Cass

ninja7848 wrote: »

How long should I leave the rifle to cool down after shooting a group.lets say I’m shooting groups of 3.

Depends on the barrel. A heavier barrel will stand up to more shots better than a thin barrel and a stainless barrel is better than a blued barrel (nothing to do with the finish but about the composition of the barrel).

TBH i wouldn't even concern yourself with how hot, but more importantly is it the same temp as the last group. You want consistency when testing ammo so if you fire the first group in a cold barrel you need to let the barrel cool down completely before testing the next group so the barrel conditions are exactly the same. It's why i always fire a few rounds to warm the barrel before testing. Saves me waiting ages for the barrel to cool completely before i can try the next batch.

Same goes for dirty or clean barrel. If i'm testing the first batch in a spotless clean barrel i'll clean between groups to make sure the other batches get the same. If the barrel is already fouled i'll keep track of the amount of shots fired and then clean, not thoroughly, and do the next batches in the same type of fouling. Its not as exact as i'd like but it works.

Also i shoot 5 shot groups. Three shots just doesn't give me the info i need and is too few shots to get a proper group.

My m77 is 1,12 twist and has 20” barrel if I’m measuring the right way. Should I expect good grouping out to 200 250 yards. Love all the info by the way.

As long as the round has used all the propellant within the length of the barrel then yes, you should get the "full effect" of each round.

Another aspect to consider is the amount of revolutions. You say the barrel is 20" and a 1:12. That means, excluding the chamber, the bullet has about 18" of barrel. So divide 12 into 18 and you get 1.5 That means the bullet will only do a maximum of one and half (1.5) rotations before it exits the barrel. You have to know or hope that is enough to stabilize the bullet.

If it were, say, 1:9 then over the 18" the bullet would do two full revolutions. So on and so forth for all the various twist rates.

Here is a comparison between a 55gr and a 75gr in a rifle with the same twist as yours. See how the 55gr is marked as stable, but the 75 gr is not. This is down to bullet length, speed, twist rate, etc.

yubabill1

Fiesta man, your 200yd group is fine IMHO.

You were off a pod, in the field.

0.5 MOA groups are really for the bench.

Me, I'm happy with MOA in the field (I don't use a pod) and I'm proud to be able to achieve this consistently.

I'm not knocking what Cass has been saying, it's all true, but it's really hard to consistently shoot 0.5MOA in the field and not strictly necessary for hunting. Without a bench and rest or whatever you're having at the range, it will wreck your head.

A very good shot (now he could shoot 0.5MOA in the field) told me a long time ago "Find a bullet your rifle likes and stick with it"

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Fiesta man, your 200yd group is fine IMHO.

As i said i was not trying to insult and i was not attacking fiestaman's shooting ability. I merely commented on his 200 yard group compared to the 100 yard. With a tight group at 100 and a wide one at 200 there is an issue so no point in saying everything is fine. Not being nasty, truly.

You were off a pod, in the field.

Yeah, i've heard this before and i still wonder why people think this is an excuse or a drawback.

0.5 MOA groups are really for the bench.

Again, no they're not. I have regularly shot 0.5 moa from a bipod with both the bolt action and the semi auto.

Also, and this is why i said to Fiestaman that there is no insult intended and went on to discuss ammo choice with him, if you look at his 100 yard group and give it a rough measurement based on bullet hole (as a guide) then the group measures sub 0.5moa. It opens up at 200 yards meaning the ammo choice is not right for the rifle.

I'm not knocking what Cass has been saying

Yes ye are, go wan outta dat.

, it's all true,

Emmmm, sure, why not.

but it's really hard to consistently shoot 0.5MOA in the field and not strictly necessary for hunting.

For hunting, not necessary at all as it's always a one shot scenario, but its nice to know your rifle is able.

Without a bench and rest or whatever you're having at the range, it will wreck your head.

Still have to disagree, it's more than capable. Just do what you do when on the range.

A very good shot (now he could shoot 0.5MOA in the field) told me a long time ago "Find a bullet your rifle likes and stick with it"

True.

tikkamark

Excellent advice and knowledge from cass I’d have to agree with,my own 1:8 t3 shoots 75gr about 1.5moa at 100y but they really come into there own about 300y out and at 400y it will drop round after round on top of one another on a steel gong obviously when wind was consistent speed not gusting.
Something I’d imagine the has got to do with bullet yaw as it leaves the barrel it takes a bit of distance for it to settle on its own axis.
So before you write off a round as being terrible try it 200+yards out if possible.

Walter Mittys Brother

tikkamark wrote: »

So before you write off a round as being terrible try it 200+yards out if possible.

What % of foxes shot are at 200 yards+? Most I & my buddies shoot are around 100 yards. Target shooting, different kettle of fish I suppose.

tikkamark

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

tikkamark wrote: »

So before you write off a round as being terrible try it 200+yards out if possible.

What % of foxes shot are at 200 yards+? Most I & my buddies shoot are around 100 yards. Target shooting, different kettle of fish I suppose.

Get to know your rifle and Ammo combination use a Rangefinder and learn to read wind direction and speed+use a bullet drop chart or ballistic calculator and daylight foxes on summer evenings at 200+ yards are not a problem once you’ve put the effort into learning on steel or paper.
Lamping at night is a totally different animal where a 200y would be definitely at my max with a .223.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Target shooting, different kettle of fish I suppose.

From my own point of view i'm not saying fox shooting or hunting in general should be treated the same as target shooting because, as you said, they are two different disciplines.

What i'm saying is if your rifle is set up correctly and the ammo is not performing on targets (on a range of course) then what faith can you have it'll hit accurately and kill cleanly at the distances.

Fiestaman's grouping at 100 is perfect but the bullet is not suiting past 100 yards. This tells me his techique is perfectly fine so any deviation must be down to the rifle/bullet. So as long as he shoots mostly at 100 he is fine, but if he has to take a fox at 200 or if a target presents itself further out then with the spread at 200 yards being over three times that at 100 what will it be past 200?

As Tikkamark said there is nothing wrong with knowing if the bullet will do its job after the shooter has done his part, in fact i'd encourage lads to get to know their set up.

The shorter the distance the less the spread even with a poor bullet combo, but if they stablise or perform better at distance then you can be confident that'll you'll hit at 100 yards even if its only holding 1moa, but also at 200 and beyond if it can hold that 1 moa or less.

Not a case of comparing for comparison sake, but my bolt action will hold 1/2" to 3/4" at 100, 1" at 200 and 2.25" at 300 yards. With the same bullet. So while i may rarely take shots past 200 yards i know i can do safely and accurately meaning a hit for me and a quick/humane kill for the animal.

I'm probably not getting whats in my head out properly but i hope its making sense.

Its why i keep saying i'm not sh*ting on Fiestaman for the sake of doing so but to highlight a potential or actual problem and how i think he should act to address it.

Walter Mittys Brother

I get what you're saying Cass my point is that for me the % of shots at each distance would be a major consideration. If say 85% + of the shots are at 100 or less then the cheaper ammo is grand. If 200 yards shots present themselves then educated decisions about the % probability of an ethical kill can be judged on a shot to shot basis.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

I get what you're saying Cass my point is that for me the % of shots at each distance would be a major consideration. If say 85% + of the shots are at 100 or less then the cheaper ammo is grand.

Yup, and i agree. As above:

Cass wrote:

Fiestaman's grouping at 100 is perfect but the bullet is not suiting past 100 yards. This tells me his techique is perfectly fine so any deviation must be down to the rifle/bullet. So as long as he shoots mostly at 100 he is fine....................

If he shoots, like you said, mostly within this distance then his grouping and shooting is fine. If he goes past this then he might want to consider another round.

If 200 yards shots present themselves then educated decisions about the % probability of an ethical kill can be judged on a shot to shot basis.

That is what all this started from. my comment on the bullet's performance at 200. Given the 100 yard performance i think the rifle is not liking the ammo, but only showing it at distance. In which case why not try another round tha will do well at 100 and just as well at 200+ instead of excellent at 100 and average to poor at 200+.

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

In which case why not try another round tha will do well at 100 and just as well at 200+ instead of excellent at 100 and average to poor at 200+.

No reason why he shouldn't unless approx 85% of his shots are at 100 yards or so as I said above.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

As i said i was not trying to insult and i was not attacking fiestaman's shooting ability. I merely commented on his 200 yard group compared to the 100 yard. With a tight group at 100 and a wide one at 200 there is an issue so no point in saying everything is fine. Not being nasty, truly.

Yeah, i've heard this before and i still wonder why people think this is an excuse or a drawback.

Again, no they're not. I have regularly shot 0.5 moa from a bipod with both the bolt action and the semi auto.

Also, and this is why i said to Fiestaman that there is no insult intended and went on to discuss ammo choice with him, if you look at his 100 yard group and give it a rough measurement based on bullet hole (as a guide) then the group measures sub 0.5moa. It opens up at 200 yards meaning the ammo choice is not right for the rifle.

Yes ye are, go wan outta dat.

Emmmm, sure, why not.

For hunting, not necessary at all as it's always a one shot scenario, but its nice to know your rifle is able.

Still have to disagree, it's more than capable. Just do what you do when on the range.

True.

You have the luxury of the Midlands setup to tune your kit, so you're setting a high standard for us pot hunters to achieve.

I was in Midlands once, shortly after it opened and got to fire a single shot, which happily found somewhere in the 100yd bull (quit while you're ahead) and it was supreme luxury. In the field, I'm resting on a fencepost or something similar and I have learned to live with that, it's what I like and it's a skill of its own to master.

If you're saying the guy's bullet choice is behind the 200 yd group, then I agree with you.

What I'm saying is that it's very hard to translate from the bench to the field, even with a pod and go a bit easy on the guy.

For me - and only for me, in this instance - I'm sure I could spend a lot of time and money and get a setup and the skill to achieve 0.5 MOA in the field, but I'm not going to, as I don't need that kind of precision, which would require more than a casual investment (that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to be able to achieve it). Whether you think I could shoot 0.5 MOA it is a matter for yourself.

These are guys out in the field and a 2-3" group at 200 is good enough to kill a fox shot in the boiler house at that range with that ammo. Go any further, though and things start to get dodgy.

Personally, I don't shoot much beyond 150yds and I'm zeroed for 55gr at 100 because I have found the vast majority of opportunities present on the 75-100 yd range. That's probably just as well, because if everything was presenting at 175-200 yds+, I would have to change my setup and start practicing a lot more.

I recognise my own limitations and I'm comfortable to pass the 300 yd shots, for me, it's just a matter of stalking a bit closer and there's a satisfaction in that part of the thing, too.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

No reason why he shouldn't unless approx 85% of his shots are at 100 yards or so as I said above.

My point is for the 100% of shots a bullet that performs as well at 100 as the one he used, but better past 100 is the better option.

I know people like to stick to a bullet that performs well, hell i do it myself, but i don't shoot at one distance and call it a day.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

In the field, I'm resting on a fencepost or something similar and I have learned to live with that, it's what I like and it's a skill of its own to master.

You're going on like the Midlands offer a massage with a happy ending while you shoot. It's a concrete floor and a target board at the other end. I haven't always been a member of the range and was shooting for years before i joined so i had to do the field zero to make sure i was safe, and hitting my mark.

I didn't use fence posts, and neither did fiestaman if you look at his pictures. I, and he, used a bipod and in a prone position. Identical to how its done at the Midlands. BTW if you shoot from a bench at all you'll soon realise that the shooting position form a bench and from the prone position are not the same and can lead to an imperfect zero if you zero at one, but shoot from the other.

If you're saying the guy's bullet choice is behind the 200 yd group, then I agree with you.

That is all i've said from the first post after his.

What I'm saying is that it's very hard to translate from the bench to the field, even with a pod and go a bit easy on the guy.

Again its not the bench. Yes there are tables at a range, but more and more lads, myself included, prefer to shoot from the prone position to replicate field conditions for the reason i gave above. Shoot as you would in the field and practice as such. It is the same when i practice for a Bullseye comp. I don't use back bags, bipods, etc. because i cannot use them in the comp so why become dependent on them to find i don't have that when shooting.

For me - and only for me, in this instance - I'm sure I could spend a lot of time and money and get a setup and the skill to achieve 0.5 MOA in the field, but I'm not going to, as I don't need that kind of precision, which would require more than a casual investment (that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to be able to achieve it).

Fiestaman shot 0.5moa at 100 yards. It's in his picture, the first one. So he is capable and the rifle is capable. However if he shot just over 0.5 or shot 0.5 with a single stray round i'd say nothing except well done. He didn't. The shots are widely spread, in excess of 1moa (closer to 1.5) and taking into account his performance at 100 the first thing i'd consider, from personal experience, is the ammo.

Whether you think I could shoot 0.5 MOA it is a matter for yourself.

There is the thing, it's not. How you shoot and what you think of it is completely your thing. If however you put it on an internet forum for discussion you seek input, opinions, praise or criticism.

These are guys out in the field and a 2-3" group at 200 is good enough to kill a fox shot in the boiler house at that range with that ammo. Go any further, though and things start to get dodgy.

There is the difference. I rarely accept "good enough". If i know the rifle, and by default myself, i'm using can do much better as fiestaman has done at 100 then how you know you're kit is on the ball and any misses or poor placement is the shooters fault. Fiestaman has highlighted a potential issue with his ammo past 100 yards and can now address that. If he brings that group down to below 1moa at 200 yards (2 inch group) then he can be more confident in his shooting. However if the shooter is using poor ammo, getting poor groupings, but continuing to use the ammo responsible then how confident would he be each time he goes to pull the trigger knowing it may injure or miss the animal?

Personally, I don't shoot much beyond 150yds and I'm zeroed for 55gr at 100 because I have found the vast majority of opportunities present on the 75-100 yd range. That's probably just as well, because if everything was presenting at 175-200 yds+, I would have to change my setup and start practicing a lot more.

My shots can go from 40 yards to over 350 so i don't have the luxury of not bothering with anything past 100.

I recognise my own limitations and I'm comfortable to pass the 300 yd shots, for me, it's just a matter of stalking a bit closer and there's a satisfaction in that part of the thing, too.

Fox shooting for me is not like deer stalking. I don't stalk the fox for sport, i eliminate a pest that is costing the land owner money. Its more job like for me, and my method of payment for getting the land permission in the first place.

We've kinda, and i'm at fault for this, gone off the original topic so apologies to the OP, but all i said was the group at 200, for me, would need work. If you or anyone else if happy at a near 3" group at 200 yards then more power to you and enjoy your shooting. I'm not here and have no interest in trying to convince you to change. For me it's not acceptable in the sense that i would want to know why my rifle is so good at 100 and then falls down at 200. If the trend continues at 300 it could be over 3moa or 9 inches which is the difference between a clean kill and a miss.

I would hope fiestaman is reading this and thinking maybe i [me] might have a point and consider trying different ammo, but if not and he says that prick [me] can feck off and stick his testing up his arse than that is fine too. Again i'm not the fox shooting police and no interest in becoming so.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

There is the thing, it's not. How you shoot and what you think of it is completely your thing. If however you put it on an internet forum for discussion you seek input, opinions, praise or criticism.

Just to lighten things up, here's a group I shot with Tulammo 62gr @ 100yds a few years ago.

All that glitters is not gold.......

Edit: Before you all go out looking for this ammo, I put the group up for a laugh. I tried as hard as I ever have to get that group, but I know it's an outlier and there are two previous groups outside the pic which are about 1.5 MOA, which I'm sure I could make plenty of excuses for and while I did try much harder to get the one pictured, it's really a statistical coincidence.

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

My point is for the 100% of shots a bullet that performs as well at 100 as the one he used, but better past 100 is the better option.

I know what you're point is. You've told us a few times in this thread.

Not saying you're wrong just that I don't see the point in what you're pointing out if most of the shots are shot at approx 100 yards where the ammo is consistent. I see no need to worry about my 200 yard+ performance if I don't shoot at that distance.

What you do/require is not what I'd do/require is all I'm saying.

fiestaman

Yup, I've been reading with interest, as said in the post I have 64gr and 55gr to try which Id say should perform well being heavier. I'm no target shooter but like to challenge myself when shooting targets and as Cass said a different bullet may prove better at longer distances but as said I will do that when the long evenings come. I wouldn't be a fan of shooting vermin at long range(that's just me) but I like longer range targets that I can set up in the field myself. I've only got this gun 3weeks so I've a lot of testing to do. Back to original post as I said I zeroed at 50 and there very little in it then out to 200yrds using the 50gr fiocchi.

yubabill1

fiestaman wrote: »

Yup, I've been reading with interest, as said in the post I have 64gr and 55gr to try which Id say should perform well being heavier. I'm no target shooter but like to challenge myself when shooting targets and as Cass said a different bullet may prove better at longer distances but as said I will do that when the long evenings come. I wouldn't be a fan of shooting vermin at long range(that's just me) but I like longer range targets that I can set up in the field myself. I've only got this gun 3weeks so I've a lot of testing to do. Back to original post as I said I zeroed at 50 and there very little in it then out to 200yrds using the 50gr fiocchi.

The 64gr are probably Federal soft points? They will hit like a train, especially if the round travels from chest to ass, where it has a chance to get hold of something substantial. The drawback is they drop like a stone at 200yds - I think I remember something like a 6" (15cm) drop at 200yds from a 150 yd zero with my T3 1:8 24" bbl.

The 55gr could be anything, but as a rough rule of thumb, I expect a 4" drop at 200yds from a 150yd zero.

I now use a 100 yd zero and I haven't profiled any rounds at 200yds, so no info from me on that.

The lighter bullets will fly flatter at long range, but the wind catches them more. Swings and roundabouts.

fiestaman

just on the 200yrd group the ruler is a 6" showing mm at the top and inches at the bottom, the group measures rougly 1" or 0.5moa at 200yrds. not that it makes any difference but just wanted to clarify

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Just to lighten things up,

Lighten up or tighten up

here's a group I shot with Tulammo 62gr @ 100yds a few years ago.

For that ammo, pretty good. Shooting from a bench, with the rifle clamped, and the ammo is seriously inconsistent with high fliers and then back on zero.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

I know what you're point is. You've told us a few times in this thread.[/.quote]I haven't told "us" anything i've said to you a few times.

One more time, for funnsies.

............ if most of the shots are shot at approx 100 yards where the ammo is consistent. I see no need to worry about my 200 yard+ performance if I don't shoot at that distance.

Why use ammo that obviously is temperamental and only good for one specific distance. Another ammo will do just as well at 100 but also any other distance.

So you're saying there is no need to try other ammo that is superior at any distance because you found one that works at only one distance?

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

The 64gr are probably Federal soft points? ................... The drawback is they drop like a stone at 200yds - I think I remember something like a 6" (15cm) drop at 200yds from a 150 yd zero with my T3 1:8 24" bbl.

The 55gr could be anything, but as a rough rule of thumb, I expect a 4" drop at 200yds from a 150yd zero.

I have not gotten more than 2" of drop from 100 yard zero to 200 yard target with any round i've tried and i've gone through 40gr, 45gr, 50gr, 53gr, 55gr, 60gr, 62gr, 64gr, 75gr.

Cass

fiestaman wrote: »

just on the 200yrd group the ruler is a 6" showing mm at the top and inches at the bottom, the group measures rougly 1" or 0.5moa at 200yrds. not that it makes any difference but just wanted to clarify

It makes a huge difference because i misread the ruler and seen it as inches and not cm. So instead of 3 inches it's 3cm which is 0.6 moa. Not once in all the posts did i cop it, and i assume nobody else did either otherwise it'd have been pointed out to me.

So i owe you an apology. That is 0.5moa and good shooting.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

Lighten up or tighten up




For that ammo, pretty good. Shooting from a bench, with the rifle clamped, and the ammo is seriously inconsistent with high fliers and then back on zero.

That's a 2c coin in the pic, I'd say that group is a near-miracle, that's why I thought you'd get a laugh from it. I never got Tulammo to crack 1" any other time and more usually it gave 1.5" but, would you believe, it's not as bad as you might think at around the 300 yd mark - try them yourself and see, if you haven't already. Not amazing, but I would have expected them to be unpredictable at 300yds, but they actually aren't.

I sold nearly all the stash I had of them a while back, they were beginning to chip away at my confidence.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

It makes a huge difference because i misread the ruler and seen it as inches and not cm. So instead of 3 inches it's 3cm which is 0.6 moa. Not once in all the posts did i cop it, and i assume nobody else did either otherwise it'd have been pointed out to me.

So i owe you an apology. That is 0.5moa and good shooting.

Ditto. Thought it was 2-3" group too. My bad.

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

Why use ammo that obviously is temperamental and only good for one specific distance.

Why not? If it does what I want it'll do.

Cass wrote: »

Another ammo will do just as well at 100 but also any other distance.

And I repeat just for funnsies ............... why bother changing or experimenting if most shots are around 100 yards?

Cass wrote: »

So you're saying there is no need to try other ammo that is superior at any distance because you found one that works at only one distance?

Exactly.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I have not gotten more than 2" of drop from 100 yard zero to 200 yard target with any round i've tried and i've gone through 40gr, 45gr, 50gr, 53gr, 55gr, 60gr, 62gr, 64gr, 75gr.

OK, Cass here's a genuine question - I don't know the answer: What's the chances, with a given loading, that a 150 yd zero will cause more drop @ 200yds than a 100 yd zero?

Thinking it through, it could be possible.

Cass

I don't know.

The drop between 100 and 200 yards is (for example sake) 2". If you increase your zero range from 100 to 150 you are reducing the drop by closing the distance between the target range (200) and your zero (150). I don't know of any circumstances where the drop increases the closer you zero to the target range.

I know each zero has two zeros. What i mean by that is if my rifle is zeroed at 25 yds it's also pretty spot of for 100. If you put out a a target at 25yds and one at 100 and fired at the bull of the 100 the bullet would strike the bull of both. True story

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

I don't know.

The drop between 100 and 200 yards is (for example sake) 2". If you increase your zero range from 100 to 150 you are reducing the drop by closing the distance between the target range (200) and your zero (150). I don't know of any circumstances where the drop increases the closer you zero to the target range.

I know each zero has two zeros. What i mean by that is if my rifle is zeroed at 25 yds it's also pretty spot of for 100. If you put out a a target at 25yds and one at 100 and fired at the bull of the 100 the bullet would strike the bull of both. True story

Things were getting a bit hairy there for awhile. Ahum. So if I zero for 100 I’m also zeroed for roughly 25. And can expect about 2” drop off for 200.

Cass

ninja7848 wrote: »

So if I zero for 100 I’m also zeroed for roughly 25.

Erm, nope. Sorry.

It holds true for me with my rifle, my twist rate, and the bullet/round i'm using, etc., but if i change to another round it doesn't work and it doesn't work on my bolt action. It's actually a little high at 100 if i zero at 25 yards with that.

Doesn't work for any other rifle i have up to and including my 308.

The theory is the bullet intersects the line of sight twice. Once as it crosses on its initial trajectory and the second time, which is our actual zero, when it "falls" back and crosses the sight line again. Some claim the "25 yd zero" is a fool proof way to zero for a given distance with most centrefire rifles, but after testing it a few times with everything from a 223 to 308 (including 243, and 6.5) i've found it almost never works.

And can expect about 2” drop off for 200.

Only for a given round.

Each bullet will act differently. The faster, usually lighter, the round the less drop you will experience (rule of thumb). For if i'm using the 64gr i get almost 2" of drop from 100 to 200 yards, but if i use the 45gr or 53gr i get an inch, sometimes less of a drop over the same distance.

The only way to know what your rifle and bullet/round combo does is to shoot it.. Set up a target at 100 yards and make sure you are zeroed. Then, without adjusting your scope, fire a few rounds at a target at 200 yards and record the actual drop. If you want to and have them try different rounds to see what each does. Record everything and then see which you want to stick with.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

Erm, nope. Sorry.

It holds true for me with my rifle, my twist rate, and the bullet/round i'm using, etc., but if i change to another round it doesn't work and it doesn't work on my bolt action. It's actually a little high at 100 if i zero at 25 yards with that.

Doesn't work for any other rifle i have up to and including my 308.

The theory is the bullet intersects the line of sight twice. Once as it crosses on its initial trajectory and the second time, which is our actual zero, when it "falls" back and crosses the sight line again. Some claim the "25 yd zero" is a fool proof way to zero for a given distance with most centrefire rifles, but after testing it a few times with everything from a 223 to 308 (including 243, and 6.5) i've found it almost never works.

Only for a given round.

Each bullet will act differently. The faster, usually lighter, the round the less drop you will experience (rule of thumb). For if i'm using the 64gr i get almost 2" of drop from 100 to 200 yards, but if i use the 45gr or 53gr i get an inch, sometimes less of a drop over the same distance.

The only way to know what your rifle and bullet/round combo does is to shoot it.. Set up a target at 100 yards and make sure you are zeroed. Then, without adjusting your scope, fire a few rounds at a target at 200 yards and record the actual drop. If you want to and have them try different rounds to see what each does. Record everything and then see which you want to stick with.

Got ya. I’ll get a few different types of ammo set up a few targets.. take note and get a comparison as to what works best.not going above 55g because of 1:12 twist. As a general rule.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I don't know.

The drop between 100 and 200 yards is (for example sake) 2". If you increase your zero range from 100 to 150 you are reducing the drop by closing the distance between the target range (200) and your zero (150). I don't know of any circumstances where the drop increases the closer you zero to the target range.

I know each zero has two zeros. What i mean by that is if my rifle is zeroed at 25 yds it's also pretty spot of for 100. If you put out a a target at 25yds and one at 100 and fired at the bull of the 100 the bullet would strike the bull of both. True story

I'm not pretending to know the answer, either.

The difference between what you observed with a 100yd zero and what I observed at 150yd zero could be down to a couple of things (leaving out temp, pressure, humidity etc): either there is a scientific explanation or there is human error.

Something I was thinking about wrt the first possibility, is the angle of attack or launch angle, of each zero is slightly different. It's like throwing a stone - if you throw it with too steep an angle, it will not travel so far.

Now, we're talking about minute differences but it's something that got me thinking.

Edit: Just to add, I'm not trying to set a trap here, pretending to know nothing. I genuinely don't have an answer for this question in hand. You're right about the two zeros, I used it for twenty-odd years to zero my .22's, where a 25yd zero with high velocity ammo gave a rough 75yd zero, depending on the round.

Also, the bullet flight arc is not a perfect semi circle, it's a parabola; the drop is disproportionately on one side. So the bullet initially rises at a shallow angle for a long part of the curve, reaches its maximum height and then drops in a much more pronounced manner after that.

Edit: Found a calculator online pre-set for 30-06 and put in 100yd, 150yd zeros for comparison. The 150 yd zero shows less drop at 200, 300 and 400yds so theory debunked.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

The difference between what you observed with a 100yd zero and what I observed at 150yd zero could be down to a couple of things (leaving out temp, pressure, humidity etc): either there is a scientific explanation or there is human error.

No disrespect but i'd go for the latter.

There is no ballistic, scientific, etc. reason i can think of (granted i'm not that smart) whereby a closer zero can produce more drop with the same given rifle/bullet.

The only thing i can think of, and it's not a reason but a problem, is barrel harmonics. The barrel touching the stock or using a suppressor on/off at the various distances (the bullet may even be clipping the suppressor, but it'll show up in other ways too).

Something I was thinking about wrt the first possibility, is the angle of attack or launch angle, of each zero is slightly different. It's like throwing a stone - if you throw it with too steep an angle, it will not travel so far.

Thing is you cannot change the trajectory of the bullet as long as you use the same bullet. Hell even if you rise the height of the scope so the sight line intersects it at different points the trajectory of the bullet is always going to be the same.

Also, the bullet flight arc is not a perfect semi circle, it's a parabola;the drop is disproportionately on one side.

Correct. The longer the bullet is in flight the more gravity has time to work on it, and with the reduction in velocity of a given distance it'll drop quite steeply.

Edit: Found a calculator online pre-set for 30-06 and put in 100yd, 150yd zeros for comparison. The 150 yd zero shows less drop at 200, 300 and 400yds so theory debunked.

Try it again with the same ammo and see if you get the same results. If not then it was an error, but if so then you might have something to explore further.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

No disrespect but i'd go for the latter.

There is no ballistic, scientific, etc. reason i can think of (granted i'm not that smart) whereby a closer zero can produce more drop with the same given rifle/bullet.

The only thing i can think of, and it's not a reason but a problem, is barrel harmonics. The barrel touching the stock or using a suppressor on/off at the various distances (the bullet may even be clipping the suppressor, but it'll show up in other ways too).

I was thinking aloud about the situation where, say when you were a kid, you tried to get a bow and arrow to shoot as far as possible. There is a point when you aim too high and the arrow doesn't fly as far as when you aimed lower.

But I know now that's obviously not what generally happens with rifles, clearly a lot of development has seen to that.

The barrel harmonics is interesting, as my T3 has a heavy barrel and I noticed as soon as I brought it home that I could not slide a sheet of paper right up to the action between the barrel and the stock. I thought it was part of the design until someone I know got a T3 Lite and was getting better accuracy.

Needless to say, I got it fixed and got better groups, but the stock was binding the barrel when I profiled at 200yds. Never thought anything of it until your post.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Needless to say, I got it fixed and got better groups, but the stock was binding the barrel when I profiled at 200yds. Never thought anything of it until your post.

Even if you get a bit of paper between the barrel and stock up to the action its not good enough unless its completely free. By that i mean not a thin piece of paper, but a folded piece.

If the barrel is barely free floated any pressure, from say a bipod, will cause contact with the stock and effect harmonics and hence performance. Either sand away the stock yourself or have the rifle glass/pillar bedded.