223s are awsome

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

My point is for the 100% of shots a bullet that performs as well at 100 as the one he used, but better past 100 is the better option.

I know what you're point is. You've told us a few times in this thread.

Not saying you're wrong just that I don't see the point in what you're pointing out if most of the shots are shot at approx 100 yards where the ammo is consistent. I see no need to worry about my 200 yard+ performance if I don't shoot at that distance.

What you do/require is not what I'd do/require is all I'm saying.

fiestaman

Yup, I've been reading with interest, as said in the post I have 64gr and 55gr to try which Id say should perform well being heavier. I'm no target shooter but like to challenge myself when shooting targets and as Cass said a different bullet may prove better at longer distances but as said I will do that when the long evenings come. I wouldn't be a fan of shooting vermin at long range(that's just me) but I like longer range targets that I can set up in the field myself. I've only got this gun 3weeks so I've a lot of testing to do. Back to original post as I said I zeroed at 50 and there very little in it then out to 200yrds using the 50gr fiocchi.

yubabill1

fiestaman wrote: »

Yup, I've been reading with interest, as said in the post I have 64gr and 55gr to try which Id say should perform well being heavier. I'm no target shooter but like to challenge myself when shooting targets and as Cass said a different bullet may prove better at longer distances but as said I will do that when the long evenings come. I wouldn't be a fan of shooting vermin at long range(that's just me) but I like longer range targets that I can set up in the field myself. I've only got this gun 3weeks so I've a lot of testing to do. Back to original post as I said I zeroed at 50 and there very little in it then out to 200yrds using the 50gr fiocchi.

The 64gr are probably Federal soft points? They will hit like a train, especially if the round travels from chest to ass, where it has a chance to get hold of something substantial. The drawback is they drop like a stone at 200yds - I think I remember something like a 6" (15cm) drop at 200yds from a 150 yd zero with my T3 1:8 24" bbl.

The 55gr could be anything, but as a rough rule of thumb, I expect a 4" drop at 200yds from a 150yd zero.

I now use a 100 yd zero and I haven't profiled any rounds at 200yds, so no info from me on that.

The lighter bullets will fly flatter at long range, but the wind catches them more. Swings and roundabouts.

fiestaman

just on the 200yrd group the ruler is a 6" showing mm at the top and inches at the bottom, the group measures rougly 1" or 0.5moa at 200yrds. not that it makes any difference but just wanted to clarify

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Just to lighten things up,

Lighten up or tighten up

here's a group I shot with Tulammo 62gr @ 100yds a few years ago.

For that ammo, pretty good. Shooting from a bench, with the rifle clamped, and the ammo is seriously inconsistent with high fliers and then back on zero.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

I know what you're point is. You've told us a few times in this thread.[/.quote]I haven't told "us" anything i've said to you a few times.

One more time, for funnsies.

............ if most of the shots are shot at approx 100 yards where the ammo is consistent. I see no need to worry about my 200 yard+ performance if I don't shoot at that distance.

Why use ammo that obviously is temperamental and only good for one specific distance. Another ammo will do just as well at 100 but also any other distance.

So you're saying there is no need to try other ammo that is superior at any distance because you found one that works at only one distance?

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

The 64gr are probably Federal soft points? ................... The drawback is they drop like a stone at 200yds - I think I remember something like a 6" (15cm) drop at 200yds from a 150 yd zero with my T3 1:8 24" bbl.

The 55gr could be anything, but as a rough rule of thumb, I expect a 4" drop at 200yds from a 150yd zero.

I have not gotten more than 2" of drop from 100 yard zero to 200 yard target with any round i've tried and i've gone through 40gr, 45gr, 50gr, 53gr, 55gr, 60gr, 62gr, 64gr, 75gr.

Cass

fiestaman wrote: »

just on the 200yrd group the ruler is a 6" showing mm at the top and inches at the bottom, the group measures rougly 1" or 0.5moa at 200yrds. not that it makes any difference but just wanted to clarify

It makes a huge difference because i misread the ruler and seen it as inches and not cm. So instead of 3 inches it's 3cm which is 0.6 moa. Not once in all the posts did i cop it, and i assume nobody else did either otherwise it'd have been pointed out to me.

So i owe you an apology. That is 0.5moa and good shooting.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

Lighten up or tighten up




For that ammo, pretty good. Shooting from a bench, with the rifle clamped, and the ammo is seriously inconsistent with high fliers and then back on zero.

That's a 2c coin in the pic, I'd say that group is a near-miracle, that's why I thought you'd get a laugh from it. I never got Tulammo to crack 1" any other time and more usually it gave 1.5" but, would you believe, it's not as bad as you might think at around the 300 yd mark - try them yourself and see, if you haven't already. Not amazing, but I would have expected them to be unpredictable at 300yds, but they actually aren't.

I sold nearly all the stash I had of them a while back, they were beginning to chip away at my confidence.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

It makes a huge difference because i misread the ruler and seen it as inches and not cm. So instead of 3 inches it's 3cm which is 0.6 moa. Not once in all the posts did i cop it, and i assume nobody else did either otherwise it'd have been pointed out to me.

So i owe you an apology. That is 0.5moa and good shooting.

Ditto. Thought it was 2-3" group too. My bad.

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

Why use ammo that obviously is temperamental and only good for one specific distance.

Why not? If it does what I want it'll do.

Cass wrote: »

Another ammo will do just as well at 100 but also any other distance.

And I repeat just for funnsies ............... why bother changing or experimenting if most shots are around 100 yards?

Cass wrote: »

So you're saying there is no need to try other ammo that is superior at any distance because you found one that works at only one distance?

Exactly.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I have not gotten more than 2" of drop from 100 yard zero to 200 yard target with any round i've tried and i've gone through 40gr, 45gr, 50gr, 53gr, 55gr, 60gr, 62gr, 64gr, 75gr.

OK, Cass here's a genuine question - I don't know the answer: What's the chances, with a given loading, that a 150 yd zero will cause more drop @ 200yds than a 100 yd zero?

Thinking it through, it could be possible.

Cass

I don't know.

The drop between 100 and 200 yards is (for example sake) 2". If you increase your zero range from 100 to 150 you are reducing the drop by closing the distance between the target range (200) and your zero (150). I don't know of any circumstances where the drop increases the closer you zero to the target range.

I know each zero has two zeros. What i mean by that is if my rifle is zeroed at 25 yds it's also pretty spot of for 100. If you put out a a target at 25yds and one at 100 and fired at the bull of the 100 the bullet would strike the bull of both. True story

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

I don't know.

The drop between 100 and 200 yards is (for example sake) 2". If you increase your zero range from 100 to 150 you are reducing the drop by closing the distance between the target range (200) and your zero (150). I don't know of any circumstances where the drop increases the closer you zero to the target range.

I know each zero has two zeros. What i mean by that is if my rifle is zeroed at 25 yds it's also pretty spot of for 100. If you put out a a target at 25yds and one at 100 and fired at the bull of the 100 the bullet would strike the bull of both. True story

Things were getting a bit hairy there for awhile. Ahum. So if I zero for 100 I’m also zeroed for roughly 25. And can expect about 2” drop off for 200.

Cass

ninja7848 wrote: »

So if I zero for 100 I’m also zeroed for roughly 25.

Erm, nope. Sorry.

It holds true for me with my rifle, my twist rate, and the bullet/round i'm using, etc., but if i change to another round it doesn't work and it doesn't work on my bolt action. It's actually a little high at 100 if i zero at 25 yards with that.

Doesn't work for any other rifle i have up to and including my 308.

The theory is the bullet intersects the line of sight twice. Once as it crosses on its initial trajectory and the second time, which is our actual zero, when it "falls" back and crosses the sight line again. Some claim the "25 yd zero" is a fool proof way to zero for a given distance with most centrefire rifles, but after testing it a few times with everything from a 223 to 308 (including 243, and 6.5) i've found it almost never works.

And can expect about 2” drop off for 200.

Only for a given round.

Each bullet will act differently. The faster, usually lighter, the round the less drop you will experience (rule of thumb). For if i'm using the 64gr i get almost 2" of drop from 100 to 200 yards, but if i use the 45gr or 53gr i get an inch, sometimes less of a drop over the same distance.

The only way to know what your rifle and bullet/round combo does is to shoot it.. Set up a target at 100 yards and make sure you are zeroed. Then, without adjusting your scope, fire a few rounds at a target at 200 yards and record the actual drop. If you want to and have them try different rounds to see what each does. Record everything and then see which you want to stick with.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

Erm, nope. Sorry.

It holds true for me with my rifle, my twist rate, and the bullet/round i'm using, etc., but if i change to another round it doesn't work and it doesn't work on my bolt action. It's actually a little high at 100 if i zero at 25 yards with that.

Doesn't work for any other rifle i have up to and including my 308.

The theory is the bullet intersects the line of sight twice. Once as it crosses on its initial trajectory and the second time, which is our actual zero, when it "falls" back and crosses the sight line again. Some claim the "25 yd zero" is a fool proof way to zero for a given distance with most centrefire rifles, but after testing it a few times with everything from a 223 to 308 (including 243, and 6.5) i've found it almost never works.

Only for a given round.

Each bullet will act differently. The faster, usually lighter, the round the less drop you will experience (rule of thumb). For if i'm using the 64gr i get almost 2" of drop from 100 to 200 yards, but if i use the 45gr or 53gr i get an inch, sometimes less of a drop over the same distance.

The only way to know what your rifle and bullet/round combo does is to shoot it.. Set up a target at 100 yards and make sure you are zeroed. Then, without adjusting your scope, fire a few rounds at a target at 200 yards and record the actual drop. If you want to and have them try different rounds to see what each does. Record everything and then see which you want to stick with.

Got ya. I’ll get a few different types of ammo set up a few targets.. take note and get a comparison as to what works best.not going above 55g because of 1:12 twist. As a general rule.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I don't know.

The drop between 100 and 200 yards is (for example sake) 2". If you increase your zero range from 100 to 150 you are reducing the drop by closing the distance between the target range (200) and your zero (150). I don't know of any circumstances where the drop increases the closer you zero to the target range.

I know each zero has two zeros. What i mean by that is if my rifle is zeroed at 25 yds it's also pretty spot of for 100. If you put out a a target at 25yds and one at 100 and fired at the bull of the 100 the bullet would strike the bull of both. True story

I'm not pretending to know the answer, either.

The difference between what you observed with a 100yd zero and what I observed at 150yd zero could be down to a couple of things (leaving out temp, pressure, humidity etc): either there is a scientific explanation or there is human error.

Something I was thinking about wrt the first possibility, is the angle of attack or launch angle, of each zero is slightly different. It's like throwing a stone - if you throw it with too steep an angle, it will not travel so far.

Now, we're talking about minute differences but it's something that got me thinking.

Edit: Just to add, I'm not trying to set a trap here, pretending to know nothing. I genuinely don't have an answer for this question in hand. You're right about the two zeros, I used it for twenty-odd years to zero my .22's, where a 25yd zero with high velocity ammo gave a rough 75yd zero, depending on the round.

Also, the bullet flight arc is not a perfect semi circle, it's a parabola; the drop is disproportionately on one side. So the bullet initially rises at a shallow angle for a long part of the curve, reaches its maximum height and then drops in a much more pronounced manner after that.

Edit: Found a calculator online pre-set for 30-06 and put in 100yd, 150yd zeros for comparison. The 150 yd zero shows less drop at 200, 300 and 400yds so theory debunked.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

The difference between what you observed with a 100yd zero and what I observed at 150yd zero could be down to a couple of things (leaving out temp, pressure, humidity etc): either there is a scientific explanation or there is human error.

No disrespect but i'd go for the latter.

There is no ballistic, scientific, etc. reason i can think of (granted i'm not that smart) whereby a closer zero can produce more drop with the same given rifle/bullet.

The only thing i can think of, and it's not a reason but a problem, is barrel harmonics. The barrel touching the stock or using a suppressor on/off at the various distances (the bullet may even be clipping the suppressor, but it'll show up in other ways too).

Something I was thinking about wrt the first possibility, is the angle of attack or launch angle, of each zero is slightly different. It's like throwing a stone - if you throw it with too steep an angle, it will not travel so far.

Thing is you cannot change the trajectory of the bullet as long as you use the same bullet. Hell even if you rise the height of the scope so the sight line intersects it at different points the trajectory of the bullet is always going to be the same.

Also, the bullet flight arc is not a perfect semi circle, it's a parabola;the drop is disproportionately on one side.

Correct. The longer the bullet is in flight the more gravity has time to work on it, and with the reduction in velocity of a given distance it'll drop quite steeply.

Edit: Found a calculator online pre-set for 30-06 and put in 100yd, 150yd zeros for comparison. The 150 yd zero shows less drop at 200, 300 and 400yds so theory debunked.

Try it again with the same ammo and see if you get the same results. If not then it was an error, but if so then you might have something to explore further.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

No disrespect but i'd go for the latter.

There is no ballistic, scientific, etc. reason i can think of (granted i'm not that smart) whereby a closer zero can produce more drop with the same given rifle/bullet.

The only thing i can think of, and it's not a reason but a problem, is barrel harmonics. The barrel touching the stock or using a suppressor on/off at the various distances (the bullet may even be clipping the suppressor, but it'll show up in other ways too).

I was thinking aloud about the situation where, say when you were a kid, you tried to get a bow and arrow to shoot as far as possible. There is a point when you aim too high and the arrow doesn't fly as far as when you aimed lower.

But I know now that's obviously not what generally happens with rifles, clearly a lot of development has seen to that.

The barrel harmonics is interesting, as my T3 has a heavy barrel and I noticed as soon as I brought it home that I could not slide a sheet of paper right up to the action between the barrel and the stock. I thought it was part of the design until someone I know got a T3 Lite and was getting better accuracy.

Needless to say, I got it fixed and got better groups, but the stock was binding the barrel when I profiled at 200yds. Never thought anything of it until your post.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Needless to say, I got it fixed and got better groups, but the stock was binding the barrel when I profiled at 200yds. Never thought anything of it until your post.

Even if you get a bit of paper between the barrel and stock up to the action its not good enough unless its completely free. By that i mean not a thin piece of paper, but a folded piece.

If the barrel is barely free floated any pressure, from say a bipod, will cause contact with the stock and effect harmonics and hence performance. Either sand away the stock yourself or have the rifle glass/pillar bedded.

yubabill1

Happy to say I got the barrel properly floated, unfortunately it was not done when I profiled rounds at 200, but I was due to re-profile anyway since I changed zero to 100yds a few months ago - been promised a loan of a good rifle rest for the job.

Also got the rig pillar bedded when I changed over to AICS mags, so the rig shoots better than I can.