What to do about Walsh Park?

azimuth17

Building stadiums out of town is an idea past its sell by date. Best models around are Croke Park and Aviva. Car access is almost impossible. A little bit of sense around a 15-18000 Walsh Park would see a traffic cordon arranged on match days. Someone said here its 25 minutes walk from the Reg to Walsh Park. Tat about says it all. Applemarket should be a go to venue after a match.

thomasm

It would be great and a fanciful notion I know to see a decent stadium on the North Wharf as part of the works planned for there. Center of town(ish), surrounded by pubs, parking train station etc. Ideal spot for concerts and so forth. Would create some atmosphere

Johnboy1951

theyoungchap wrote: »

But the needs of supporters go beyond those of car drivers.

Supporters also drive cars!

Do you not think people might want some food or drink before a match, where is the spin-off to the local economy if the nearest pubs/restaurants/etc are 20 miles away?

Twenty miles? Hahahahahahahaha

Do you think it impossible to get food & drink before taking a bus to the venue from town?
Not possible to provide refreshments at the stadium?

Mass transport by buses is a joke, build the stadium in town. Just don't build on an island like Salthill with 1-way on, 1-way off.

Maybe you should advise the transport planners in our major towns & cities ....... obviously they are missing some valuable information about the non-viability of buses.

theyoungchap

Yes well if you think people will drive into Waterford, get pints and food, and then hop on a bus to the match, rather than just driving from home to the ground you are deluded.
Refreshments at the ground in the middle of nowhere = tea and sandwiches at the boot.

I meant mass transport by buses to a match the way you think it would work is a joke and a load of nonsense.

Ever been to Stade De France🙄, Twickenham, or any NFL stadium in America? If you haven't and want to see why a stadium miles out of town is a terrible idea, go to one.

Deiseen

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

theyoungchap wrote: »

But the needs of supporters go beyond those of car drivers.

Supporters also drive cars!

Do you not think people might want some food or drink before a match, where is the spin-off to the local economy if the nearest pubs/restaurants/etc are 20 miles away?

Twenty miles? Hahahahahahahaha

Do you think it impossible to get food & drink before taking a bus to the venue from town?
Not possible to provide refreshments at the stadium?

Mass transport by buses is a joke, build the stadium in town. Just don't build on an island like Salthill with 1-way on, 1-way off.

Maybe you should advise the transport planners in our major towns & cities ....... obviously they are missing some valuable information about the non-viability of buses.

You are just trolling now...

Johnboy1951

Deiseen wrote: »

You are just trolling now...

Nope, just commenting on some ridiculous suggestions such as an assumption that outside the main urban area means 20 miles away.

theyoungchap wrote: »

Yes well if you think people will drive into Waterford, get pints and food, and then hop on a bus to the match, rather than just driving from home to the ground you are deluded.
Refreshments at the ground in the middle of nowhere = tea and sandwiches at the boot.

Nope, not what I think at all, nor what I posted.

I meant mass transport by buses to a match the way you think it would work is a joke and a load of nonsense.

Ever been to Stade De France��, Twickenham, or any NFL stadium in America? If you haven't and want to see why a stadium miles out of town is a terrible idea, go to one.

Well Stade de Francais is about 3Km from the Eiffle Tower, hardly 20 miles away from urban Paris. The PSG ground is close by.
But of course they are positioned so very wrongly and should be in the middle of Paris if one is to follow your reasoning.

The best Waterford could do would be to build a stadium close to the motorway so that traffic could arrive and leave without much delay and as little upset to local traffic and residents as possible.

theyoungchap

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

You are just trolling now...

Nope, just commenting on some ridiculous suggestions such as an assumption that outside the main urban area means 20 miles away.

theyoungchap wrote: »

Yes well if you think people will drive into Waterford, get pints and food, and then hop on a bus to the match, rather than just driving from home to the ground you are deluded.
Refreshments at the ground in the middle of nowhere = tea and sandwiches at the boot.

Nope, not what I think at all, nor what I posted.

I meant mass transport by buses to a match the way you think it would work is a joke and a load of nonsense.

Ever been to Stade De France��, Twickenham, or any NFL stadium in America? If you haven't and want to see why a stadium miles out of town is a terrible idea, go to one.

The best Waterford could do would be to build a stadium close to the motorway so that traffic could arrive and leave without much delay and as little upset to local traffic and residents as possible.

Dreadful idea, in fact the worst thing they could do, but we'll have to differ.

Clareman

Sorry for jumping in here but this popped up on the main page and I was interested in it.

Clare looked at developing a green field site years ago, it would have been a complete and utter disaster for everything, what they did instead was refine Cusack Park a bit to accept 19k supporters, I was there on Sunday and there wasn't any problem in our out. Remember that Walsh Park has been fit for purpose for a long time, there's no point in spending a fortune on it or a new site just for 2 home games a year, which mightn't even sell out and the GAA might decide to scrap in a few years anyway. Looking for the outside in I would have thought that Thurles would be a natural "home" venue for you, the years ye have Tipp at home mightn't suit but next year you could have 3 home games.

theyoungchap

Exactly Clareman, as with most small regional grounds (I am thinking of Wexford Park, O'Connor Park, Nowlan Park, Cusack Park, etc) they are 10-15 minutes walk from the centre of the town, and indeed train/bus depots. I have been to most of the above and there is good craic and life in the town after the match - the local economy benefits massively.

20k is all that is needed for all but the biggest matches, which can be moved to Thurles/Cork if necessary, but lets face it that is big enough for a lot of matches. In the interim, I feel Waterford should play their home games in Nowlan Park - who cares if it is in a different province.

(I should add I am not a Waterford man, but I care about GAA similar to Clareman and dropped in to see the discussion)

Clareman

theyoungchap wrote: »

Exactly Clareman, as with most small regional grounds (I am thinking of Wexford Park, O'Connor Park, Nowlan Park, Cusack Park, etc) they are 10-15 minutes walk from the centre of the town, and indeed train/bus depots. I have been to most of the above and there is good craic and life in the town after the match - the local economy benefits massively.

20k is all that is needed for all but the biggest matches, which can be moved to Thurles/Cork if necessary, but lets face it that is big enough for a lot of matches. In the interim, I feel Waterford should play their home games in Nowlan Park - who cares if it is in a different province.

(I should add I am not a Waterford man, but I care about GAA similar to Clareman and dropped in to see the discussion)

All this week in Cusack Park there will be underage finals going on, it's great for local people to be able to drop in, park in Tesco/uptown and stroll over, if Cusack Park was in a greenfield park then EVERYONE would have to drive and be reliant and the carparks at the ground.

Deiseen

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

You are just trolling now...

Nope, just commenting on some ridiculous suggestions such as an assumption that outside the main urban area means 20 miles away.

theyoungchap wrote: »

Yes well if you think people will drive into Waterford, get pints and food, and then hop on a bus to the match, rather than just driving from home to the ground you are deluded.
Refreshments at the ground in the middle of nowhere = tea and sandwiches at the boot.

Nope, not what I think at all, nor what I posted.

I meant mass transport by buses to a match the way you think it would work is a joke and a load of nonsense.

Ever been to Stade De France��, Twickenham, or any NFL stadium in America? If you haven't and want to see why a stadium miles out of town is a terrible idea, go to one.

Well Stade de Francais is about 3Km from the Eiffle Tower, hardly 20 miles away from urban Paris. The PSG ground is close by.
But of course they are positioned so very wrongly and should be in the middle of Paris if one is to follow your reasoning.

The best Waterford could do would be to build a stadium close to the motorway so that traffic could arrive and leave without much delay and as little upset to local traffic and residents as possible.

These stadiums will have tip top public transport systems linking them to the main centre of Paris, as well as to main train/bus stations to get you out of Paris.

A site near the motorway will have none of this and will require everyone to drive. It will never get planning permission for this reason, so there is just no point in even talking about it really because it just won't happen.

theyoungchap

Deiseen wrote: »

These stadiums will have tip top public transport systems linking them to the main centre of Paris, as well as to main train/bus stations to get you out of Paris.

A site near the motorway will have none of this and will require everyone to drive. It will never get planning permission for this reason, so there is just no point in even talking about it really because it just won't happen.

This is Ireland, I am sure there is some lad near the motorway who has a site, knows people in the council, etc, etc......stranger things have happened.

Clareman

Deiseen wrote: »

These stadiums will have tip top public transport systems linking them to the main centre of Paris, as well as to main train/bus stations to get you out of Paris.

A site near the motorway will have none of this and will require everyone to drive. It will never get planning permission for this reason, so there is just no point in even talking about it really because it just won't happen.

You can't compare a stadium like that with a county GAA ground, those stadiums are used a couple of times a month for big events where there will be a full event planning team in place. A county GAA ground has to be able to cater for a sell out a couple times a year and matches every night during the summer.

deiseach

Clareman wrote: »

All this week in Cusack Park there will be underage finals going on, it's great for local people to be able to drop in, park in Tesco/uptown and stroll over, if Cusack Park was in a greenfield park then EVERYONE would have to drive and be reliant and the carparks at the ground.

Exactly. The way people go on about out-of-town sites, you'd swear you could just unfold them for the two (maybe) games a year where a large crowd is likely to be in attendance then pack it away when you are done. I saw lots of people commenting on the razzmatazz that was around Cusack Park on Sunday. It's not the location that would stop us having that in Walsh Park or Fraher Field, it's the team.

Deiseen

Clareman wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

These stadiums will have tip top public transport systems linking them to the main centre of Paris, as well as to main train/bus stations to get you out of Paris.

A site near the motorway will have none of this and will require everyone to drive. It will never get planning permission for this reason, so there is just no point in even talking about it really because it just won't happen.

You can't compare a stadium like that with a county GAA ground, those stadiums are used a couple of times a month for big events where there will be a full event planning team in place. A county GAA ground has to be able to cater for a sell out a couple times a year and matches every night during the summer.

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out the differences because the other guy was trying to compare by saying they were 3km outside Paris.

theyoungchap

Deiseen wrote: »

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out the differences because the other guy was trying to compare by saying they were 3km outside Paris.

And it is further than 3km from centre of Paris, it is basically in an industrial estate with 1-2 bars at best. It is an awful miserable atmosphere destroying location. I always love when you go to the likes of Kilkenny and Wexford, the town is buzzing with jerseys from both sides, you near the ground and can sense the occasion, there is buskers on the bridge up to Nowlan Park, etc. It creates a really great atmosphere. That is what you need, not everybody parking in a field and taking 2 hours to get out of the field, through some perceived "handiness" of being beside a motorway.

Deiseen

theyoungchap wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out the differences because the other guy was trying to compare by saying they were 3km outside Paris.

And it is further than 3km from centre of Paris, it is basically in an industrial estate with 1-2 bars at best. It is an awful miserable atmosphere destroying location. I always love when you go to the likes of Kilkenny and Wexford, the town is buzzing with jerseys from both sides, you near the ground and can sense the occasion, there is buskers on the bridge up to Nowlan Park, etc. It creates a really great atmosphere. That is what you need, not everybody parking in a field and taking 2 hours to get out of the field, through some perceived "handiness" of being beside a motorway.

Imagine the traffic on the slip road, near the stadium that leads onto the motorway. It would be the opposite of handy. At least a town provides multiple routes to go from A to B. With a motorway you dont have that option.

theyoungchap

Deiseen wrote: »

Imagine the traffic on the slip road, near the stadium that leads onto the motorway. It would be the opposite of handy. At least a town provides multiple routes to go from A to B. With a motorway you dont have that option.

Even getting out of Thurles when Wexford/Cork/Waterford/Kilkenny are playing is difficult, but at least you have the option of having a pint or dinner or whatever and letting those in a hurry on.
I know big matches generate traffic but they also generate a massive spin off for a local economy, and anybody who works in any regional town knows it is a chance for a big pay day for pubs/bars/employers/employees. That should be the number 1 priority.

Deiseen

theyoungchap wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

Imagine the traffic on the slip road, near the stadium that leads onto the motorway. It would be the opposite of handy. At least a town provides multiple routes to go from A to B. With a motorway you dont have that option.

Even getting out of Thurles when Wexford/Cork/Waterford/Kilkenny are playing is difficult, but at least you have the option of having a pint or dinner or whatever and letting those in a hurry on.
I know big matches generate traffic but they also generate a massive spin off for a local economy, and anybody who works in any regional town knows it is a chance for a big pay day for pubs/bars/employers/employees. That should be the number 1 priority.

If you had 20,000 people spending €20 in town (some spend more, some spend less) then that's almost €500,000 into the local economy. This is why the council and businesses need to get on board with this.

Clareman

theyoungchap wrote: »

Even getting out of Thurles when Wexford/Cork/Waterford/Kilkenny are playing is difficult, but at least you have the option of having a pint or dinner or whatever and letting those in a hurry on.
I know big matches generate traffic but they also generate a massive spin off for a local economy, and anybody who works in any regional town knows it is a chance for a big pay day for pubs/bars/employers/employees. That should be the number 1 priority.

Thurles is probably the worst town for getting out of for a big match, that was the main reason it wasn't picked for the rugby world cup bid.

Deiseen

Clareman wrote: »

theyoungchap wrote: »

Even getting out of Thurles when Wexford/Cork/Waterford/Kilkenny are playing is difficult, but at least you have the option of having a pint or dinner or whatever and letting those in a hurry on.
I know big matches generate traffic but they also generate a massive spin off for a local economy, and anybody who works in any regional town knows it is a chance for a big pay day for pubs/bars/employers/employees. That should be the number 1 priority.

Thurles is probably the worst town for getting out of for a big match, that was the main reason it wasn't picked for the rugby world cup bid.

There were numerous reasons for it not being picked. Hotels and facilities was another.

Johnboy1951

Clareman wrote: »

All this week in Cusack Park there will be underage finals going on, it's great for local people to be able to drop in, park in Tesco/uptown and stroll over, if Cusack Park was in a greenfield park then EVERYONE would have to drive and be reliant and the carparks at the ground.

Except when (and it happened on Sunday) the owners of the car parks (Tesco, Aldi) prevented match-goers parking in their car parks.

It is so wrong on every level to expect private car parks to cater for match goer's vehicles, without some prior 'arrangement' with the GAA.

That there were parking difficulties means that a considerable number of people DID drive .... right into the centre of town!
Others parked their cars where they could, again in town, and walked from there to the ground.

It would make interesting reading to find out what percentage of Clare supporters who attended the game, did not make use any vehicle to get to the ground, or close enough to walk to the ground.
Presumably the vast majority of the visitors supporters used vehicles to get there.

It would appear the great majority of attendees at the game used a vehicle to attend.

Most city & town planners spend their time devising ways to keep vehicular traffic out of city/town centres, so stadia like Cusack Park and Walsh Park are really throw-backs to times long past.
There was a time in living memory that Walsh Park was on the very outskirts of Waterford ... just about 'in the country' - a time when families walked out 'Paddy Browne's Long Road' on a fine Sunday afternoon for recreation with not a house to be seen!

theyoungchap

Deiseen wrote: »

There were numerous reasons for it not being picked. Hotels and facilities was another.

Not enough hotel rooms was the number 1 reason. I know Thurles isn't easy to get out of (and if Wexford/Kilkenny/Cork/Waterford playing the one day it is a disaster) but my point stands - there is other options to do after the match such as having a pint, dinner, etc and the town benefits from a match there.

Deiseen

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Clareman wrote: »

All this week in Cusack Park there will be underage finals going on, it's great for local people to be able to drop in, park in Tesco/uptown and stroll over, if Cusack Park was in a greenfield park then EVERYONE would have to drive and be reliant and the carparks at the ground.

Except when (and it happened on Sunday) the owners of the car parks (Tesco, Aldi) prevented match-goers parking in their car parks.

It is so wrong on every level to expect private car parks to cater for match goer's vehicles, without some prior 'arrangement' with the GAA.

That there were parking difficulties means that a considerable number of people DID drive .... right into the centre of town!
Others parked their cars where they could, again in town, and walked from there to the ground.

It would make interesting reading to find out what percentage of Clare supporters who attended the game, did not make use any vehicle to get to the ground, or close enough to walk to the ground.
Presumably the vast majority of the visitors supporters used vehicles to get there.

It would appear the great majority of attendees at the game used a vehicle to attend.

Most city & town planners spend their time devising ways to keep vehicular traffic out of city/town centres, so stadia like Cusack Park and Walsh Park are really throw-backs to times long past.
There was a time in living memory that Walsh Park was on the very outskirts of Waterford ... just about 'in the country' - a time when families walked out 'Paddy Browne's Long Road' on a fine Sunday afternoon for recreation with not a house to be seen!

You are misinterpreting good planning practices and modern traffic management plans. An out of town stadium with no public transport system, in or out, would be fly in the face of every decent planning guideline known to man.

I'm struggling to understand what your not getting here to be totally honest with you.

Johnboy1951

Deiseen wrote: »

You are misinterpreting good planning practices and modern traffic management plans. An out of town stadium with no public transport system, in or out, would be fly in the face of every decent planning guideline known to man.

I'm struggling to understand what your not getting here to be totally honest with you.

Oh its quite simple really.
Planning to bring in large numbers of vehicles, without the necessary supports such as car parking facilities, proper traffic management etc etc when alternatives are possible is wrong IMO.

Another alternative - to provide the car park outside town with 'park and ride' to the games could also be considered.
That would have the same effect on local traffic as moving the stadium out. But of course some posters here don't believe in buses, and apparently regard anything outside town to be 20 miles away!

No doubt there are other alternatives also.

Regardless, bringing in large numbers of vehicles for games is disastrous, particularly if it can be avoided.

BBM77

The last thing built that ignored good planning practices and built on the outskirts was the Ferrybank Shopping Centre and that was a complete disaster.

theyoungchap

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Oh its quite simple really.
Planning to bring in large numbers of vehicles, without the necessary supports such as car parking facilities, proper traffic management etc etc when alternatives are possible is wrong IMO.

Another alternative - to provide the car park outside town with 'park and ride' to the games could also be considered.
That would have the same effect on local traffic as moving the stadium out. But of course some posters here don't believe in buses, and apparently regard anything outside town to be 20 miles away!

No doubt there are other alternatives also.

Regardless, bringing in large numbers of vehicles for games is disastrous, particularly if it can be avoided.

What bit of the economic benefits for the town of 20k people (yes, a significant portion of them driving) coming into the town are you not getting?

I take my own family. My wife has no interest in GAA but will often go shopping or for coffee while I am at a match. The town benefits.

You talk about a park and ride facility - why? Our towns are not so inaccessible that you can't just drive in. You are trying to engineer a problem, not a solution.

Deiseen

theyoungchap wrote: »

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Oh its quite simple really.
Planning to bring in large numbers of vehicles, without the necessary supports such as car parking facilities, proper traffic management etc etc when alternatives are possible is wrong IMO.

Another alternative - to provide the car park outside town with 'park and ride' to the games could also be considered.
That would have the same effect on local traffic as moving the stadium out. But of course some posters here don't believe in buses, and apparently regard anything outside town to be 20 miles away!

No doubt there are other alternatives also.

Regardless, bringing in large numbers of vehicles for games is disastrous, particularly if it can be avoided.

What bit of the economic benefits for the town of 20k people (yes, a significant portion of them driving) coming into the town are you not getting?

I take my own family. My wife has no interest in GAA but will often go shopping or for coffee while I am at a match. The town benefits.

You talk about a park and ride facility - why? Our towns are not so inaccessible that you can't just drive in. You are trying to engineer a problem, not a solution.

I'm totally for a park and ride but it should compliment the stadium in the city and be used all year round. Not just for games.

deiseach

What are the precedents for park-and-ride facilities in places the size of Waterford? It works well in Dublin where you slot into the normal public transport infrastructure, although even then it can be stressful trying to board the Luas out at the Red Cow and you still have a not-insignificant walk from Connolly to Croke Park. I have a picture of the queues building up at the Luas stop at Connolly and then transplanting that picture to a series of buses lined up in the centre of Waterford and an even bigger scrum at the out-of-town location when everyone comes out at the same time. Of course, you could assume everyone would be driving there in which case we'd need a venue with a car park many times larger than the stadium itself to cater for the numbers twice a year. You would have to be maximalist about the car park because you couldn't countenance a situation where people would arrive there only to find the car park to be full. I guess such a scenario appeals to neat freaks who view roadside parking as clutter. The rest of us are happy to park in designated areas away from the ground and walk, just as we have always done in other venues over the years.

914

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Oh its quite simple really.
Planning to bring in large numbers of vehicles, without the necessary supports such as car parking facilities, proper traffic management etc etc when alternatives are possible is wrong IMO.

Another alternative - to provide the car park outside town with 'park and ride' to the games could also be considered.
That would have the same effect on local traffic as moving the stadium out. But of course some posters here don't believe in buses, and apparently regard anything outside town to be 20 miles away!

No doubt there are other alternatives also.

Regardless, bringing in large numbers of vehicles for games is disastrous, particularly if it can be avoided.

Zero on street parking policy. 0.5km cordon around walsh park except for residents

Parking facilities which should be considered to use are

St pauls primary and secondary schools
Rsc
WIT
millars marsh
Bolton street
Gas works
Quays
Old waterford crystal playing fields
Dls, roanmore, st Pauls and mount sion gaa clubs
Mercy primary and secondary schools

All locations above are no more than a 20 minute walk to walsh park. Would work as a money earner for all those involved.

Near all the parking ideas above pubs and shops are plentiful, waterford can easily handle 15k. We get 50k for spraoi every bank holiday weekend.

Also using the above car parking areas, will allow for multiple routes out of town once a proper traffic management plan is in place.

It will generate revenue for the car park owners, pubs, shops and restaurants.

As you also mention an alternative could be park and ride similar to what was done during the tall ships.

Park and ride areas on old kilmeaden road,
main kilmeaden road, across the bridge.

Keeping the development in Walsh Park should ensure less cars arrive for game as the majority of city supporters will most likely walk with the expecting of the dunmore road possibly.

If the stadium is located out of town chances are people will be driving.