Salisbury nerve agent attack a false flag/decoy operation?

Snickers Man

OK. I have no evidence for the foregoing apart from what I've read in the papers and a simple examination of the facts from the point of view of cui bono? (Who benefits?)

Why would the Russians deliberately set out to humiliate/antagonise the British by carrying out an attempted assassination of a defector on British territory at this time?

The upshot has been a unified chorus of condemnation at the UN and from Europe about the flagrant abuse of human rights/breach of protocol/undermining of national sovereignty and good old state thuggery of the dastardly Russians and their Bond-villain president.

The nerve agent is only made in Russia! The target was a Russian defector and acknowledged western agent! It MUST have been the Russians, either a rogue element in their state secret services or a stereotypical "Don't **** with me" message from hard man Putin.

But who really benefits?

Does Putin really want to rattle sabres with the West at a time when relations between the western countries are at such a low ebb? Why would he give them reason to join together in common cause to denounce his evil empire when they seem quite happy to be at each other's throats with all that's going on: Brexit; steel/aluminium tariffs; discord on climate change; America first; claims of a European Army being formed; Poland incurring the wrath both of individual countries' (eg our own) courts and the European courts with its "un Europeanism", Italy going loony right at their recent elections etc etc

All this is now playing second fiddle to a united front of condemnation against Russian state terror.

Or it would if everybody believed it. Could there be an alternative interpretation?

That the spy was set up by American or British agents to appear to be the victim of a vindictive Russian attack (along with his daughter because that's what dastardly communist regimes do); that the aim is to keep everybody thinking that Russia is the big bad enemy plotting destabilisation if not outright annexation of bordering countries in Eastern Europe. That the Cold War has never really gone away you know.

This deflects public attention from the clear fact that there is a major strategic realignment taking place in Europe. Britain is leaving the EU, NATO is probably falling apart as the interests of the major European powers (minus Britain) and America diverge. Britain needs to be America's obedient poodle more than ever, and America is developing a sincere if arms-length relationship with Russia, one that is sufficiently alarming to enough Americans to have a special Congressional investigation into "collusion" between the incumbent president and his Russian allies during the last election.

Pretty soon we could see two or three power blocks in Europe, all warily manoeuvring around each other and mistrusting each other entirely. You know? like just before the First World War! Rump Nato, comprising Britain, the US and possibly non EU members like Turkey and Norway; the New EUropean Army made up of an existing political alliance (the EU) and the much signalled "closer military partnership" between its members; and Russia, who will be as in WWII, an active but decidedly arms length partner of rump NATO.

America gets what it wants: an utterly beholden nuclear armed strong military power (Britain) holding the line against any trouble in Europe while America can bring its boys home (before sending them away again) and save itself a few billion a year; Britain gets out of the EU; Russia has a little more leeway to do what it wants to do in the Baltic and Ukraine without having to worry about NATO/American reproach and Britain can pretend that it is the last great bastion of "parliamentary democracy" in Europe.

And all of them can go on screwing their EU rivals on oil because they've got it; the EU doesn't and despite determined fossil-fuel reduction programs, oil is going to be vitally important for the foreseeable future.

But to do this without anybody noticing until its too late, it's important that everybody think that old enmities are still the top priority. NATO good, Moscow bad. The soviets haven't gone away you know.

Hence the decoy of a supposedly Russian attack on somebody who has incurred their wrath.

I know I know. "We" don't do that sort of thing. This is the same sort of nonsense that alleges that American carried out 9/11 attacks."

I don't believe it is. In 9/11, 3,000 Americans died. In this one, nobody has ..yet. At the time of writing the man is still very sick but likely to get better. So happy landings all round then.

Dohnjoe

Snickers Man wrote: »

OK. I have no evidence for the foregoing apart from what I've read in the papers and a simple examination of the facts from the point of view of cui bono? (Who benefits?)

It's a good start to acknowledge that there is no evidence. The point of view from que bono is deeply flawed. It's an appeal to motive fallacy. I know it might be fun for people to speculate about mysteries and conspiracies, but ultimately what can be "asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence" as Hitchens said.

Here's a decent overview of what went down in Salisbury
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43315636

Obviously that's just one outlet, there are many others with reporters and journalists on the ground who have been following the situation as it unfolded

Snickers Man

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's a good start to acknowledge that there is no evidence. The point of view from que bono is deeply flawed. It's an appeal to motive fallacy. I know it might be fun for people to speculate about mysteries and conspiracies, but ultimately what can be "asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence" as Hitchens said.

Here's a decent overview of what went down in Salisbury
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43315636

Obviously that's just one outlet, there are many others with reporters and journalists on the ground who have been following the situation as it unfolded

I think the point about "motive fallacy" is that a motive is insufficient proof in itself of guilt. Additional material evidence has to be provided to corroborate it. But motive provides a perfectly valid avenue of enquiry along which to look for the real truth. I believe it is standard police methodology to establish "means, motive and opportunity" when investigating a crime and trying to find the perpetrator.

This is after all a speculative website and I have been very candid that I have no evidence other than what has been made available. (And do you really believe what "they" are telling us? )

So I guess all I'm asking is really: does my OP at least describe a "possible" valid motive for an attack on the two Russian victims by Western agencies?

Dohnjoe

The problem with this method is that it's lazy and used repeatedly as a foundation for baseless suspicion of all attacks/shootings/etc

Snickers Man

Two stories in the Irish Times today. This one says that Trump is expelling US diplomats in retaliation for the attack, and this one is a letter from the Russian embassy saying that they had nothing at all to do with it.

I know: they would say that, wouldn't they. But they make a plausible (note that word; it's not the same as "conclusive") case for their having little or no motive to attack someone who has already been convicted in their courts, served time in prison and then released in exchange for one of their own convicted prisoners.

I'm convinced it's a smokescreen. The victims are (hopefully) in recovery; no people were killed in the making of this deception; and public opinion has been influenced into a view of the world that is hopelessly out of date and has no bearing on the serious strategic realignment that is currently taking place before our very eyes.

Mark my words!

Dohnjoe

1. If Putin had this man killed, do you think he would admit to it in front of the world? highly unlikely (some would say impossible)

2. The nerve agent Novichok was worked on in Russia. One of the few deaths from the agent is a Russian chemical weapons scientist
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok

3. Skripal was hated in Russia for being a "traitor", he was continuing to pass inside information to UK and allies

4. This has happened before. One of the men suspected of killing Litvenenko was celebrated as a "hero" in Russia and became a deputy of the Duma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko


and directly..

All the evidence we have points toward Kremlin involvement. Currently an OPCW team is independently confirming the chemical (results likely within a week or two). Other countries that have been presented with the UK preliminary investigations results have supported it (and responded)

Also, the Putin administration is not acting like one that wants to get to the bottom of this. All they have done is engage in distortion, distraction, propaganda, denial, conspiracy theories.. muddying the waters for a domestic audience. They did precisely the same thing with the Litvinenko case, working against the UK using the same tactics.

On top of that, there is no evidence of any alternative theory.


So we have evidence of an inside job by the Kremlin to kill a "traitor" and send a clear message to the world - yet so far the only thread on the conspiracy forum on this centers on an entirely hypothetical suggestion (with no evidence) that it might be a false flag

Snickers Man

Dohnjoe wrote: »

1. If Putin had this man killed, do you think he would admit to it in front of the world? highly unlikely (some would say impossible)

Certainly not. But a more likely tactic would be to make no comment at all. Neither confirming nor denying. They seem to be flat out denying any involvement. Surely if you want to "send a message", you just do the deed and then shut up (like the Israelis do) and let the silence sink in.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So we have evidence of an inside job by the Kremlin to kill a "traitor" and send a clear message to the world - yet so far the only thread on the conspiracy forum on this centers on an entirely hypothetical suggestion (with no evidence) that it might be a false flag

Well, yes. But that IS what this forum is for, isn't it?

Dohnjoe

Snickers Man wrote: »

Well, yes. But that IS what this forum is for, isn't it?

Interesting question

There is a conspiracy involving ex-spies, a nerve agent that isn't supposed to exist, shadowy government agencies, .. with substantiated evidence, witnesses, corroborating material.

Unfortunately it has a basis in truth and doesn't tenuously implicate any of the favorite targets (Western governments, Clintons, Jews, etc) so there is little interest from the "conspiracy" community

Owryan

A valid reason would be the next time a Russian spy/agent/VIP thinks about defecting or becoming a double agent a little voice night remind them of what happened in the UK.

It also sends a message to others who are in a similar position that they are not safe.

redcup342

What strikes me as particularly strange is that they would use a Nerve Agent that could be directly traced back to Russia.

That stuff has been around since the Soviet Union so it's conceivable that some had been purchased on the black market after the collapse.

I think it's possible that someone carried out the attack with the aim of another goal.

Destabilization of the Middle East
Destabilize trade between Russia and the West.
Destabilize the Energy Markets

Something doesn't smell right, someone is going to make a lot of money out of this.

Dohnjoe

Thing is, there is nothing "unusual" about this attack. It's far from the first time that the Kremlin has been strongly suspected of publicly poisoning on opponent or "traitor"

Also, the overt use of the agent hardly effects Putin. Plays well to the carefully crafted conspiracy propaganda pumped out by Moscow and sends a powerful message to any would be whistle-blowers or spies

I mean just months after Russia passed a shady-as-all-hell bill essentially validating the murder of spies and traitors, Livinenko was poisoned with Polonium

Cheerful Spring

redcup342 wrote: »

What strikes me as particularly strange is that they would use a Nerve Agent that could be directly traced back to Russia.

That stuff has been around since the Soviet Union so it's conceivable that some had been purchased on the black market after the collapse.

I think it's possible that someone carried out the attack with the aim of another goal.

Destabilization of the Middle East
Destabilize trade between Russia and the West.
Destabilize the Energy Markets

Something doesn't smell right, someone is going to make a lot of money out of this.

Of course, some people forget too easily Vietnam war was started by the Americans faking an event that never happened it was a false flag. Iraq WMD was a false flag. Even Operation Northwoods was a precursor to 9/11

Hector Bellend

Evidence to prove or disprove any claims has been skimpy to put it mildly.

It isnt up to the russians to do this surely.

Dohnjoe

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Evidence to prove or disprove any claims has been skimpy to put it mildly.

It isnt up to the russians to do this surely.

The current (growing) evidence points toward Russian state involvement

There is no other evidence of other theories, including the 14 (and increasing) different theories and explanations presented by the Kremlin

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The current (growing) evidence points toward Russian state involvement

There is no other evidence of other theories, including the 14 (and increasing) different theories and explanations presented by the Kremlin

Dohnjoe,

Nothing points to the Kremlin. Now you can say that every finger points in that direction but it doesn't make it so.

So you can shoehorn the word "growing" into parentheses to try to lend weight to your argument but all you are doing is playing the lawyer who bangs on the table.

Russia has hidden nothing.
They have insisted on evidence that the Skripals were not only poisoned but poisoned by Russian toxins.
They have requested proof of all these accusations.

The Russians have demanded that all samples be brought under OPCW supervision to the Hague, which I might add is an obligation to ALL states who have signed up to the CWC Treaty.

Britain has refused.

Britain has refused Russian diplomatic or even medical access to any alleged victim in this affair. That is also a violation of international protocol.

To counter the aforementioned anomaly people say that the Russian doctors/relatives/diplomats will just murder her. As if cameras and supervision has suddenly ceased to exist.


The only people with anything to hide in this episode are the British. They have not even shown a picture of the victims. They have danced around their stories. They have destroyed evidence.

If I was the biggest Anglophile and the biggest Russiaphobe I would look at this and say "FARCE".

And it truly IS a farce. People just don't want to question those that they've trusted all their lives.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The current (growing) evidence points toward Russian state involvement

There is no other evidence of other theories, including the 14 (and increasing) different theories and explanations presented by the Kremlin

Nobody is interested in other theories.

What most people are interested in is the proof that the Skripals were attacked in Salisbury and that this attack was orchestrated by a government, namely the Government of The Russian Federation. Also that this murder attempt was sanctioned by a foreign leader.

This has been the narrative since the event was reported.

It has been quite a while since Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found incapacitated on a bench. They have since been brought back to health. Why is there no talk with them?

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

Nothing points to the Kremlin.

Fully agree - it was an excellent inside job.

A Russian nerve agent has been confirmed. A Russian spy-turned-traitor has been targeted. Russian legislation was previously passed making it easier to authorise the killing of "extremists" abroad (which was closely followed by another "inside job" where a hated Russian spy-turned-traitor was poisoned by Polonium traced to Russian reactors). All of this during an ongoing atmosphere during Putin's tenure of murders and assassinations of Russian opposition politicians, lawyers, spies, journalists.

And all this time it was obviously Sweden

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

What most people are interested in is the proof that the Skripals were attacked in Salisbury and that this attack was orchestrated by a government, namely the Government of The Russian Federation. Also that this murder attempt was sanctioned by a foreign leader.

Not really, I think most people suspect Putin straight off the bat (the 28 odd countries that expelled diplomats obviously believe the intelligence)

The investigation hasn't concluded yet, so we can't really call it anyway.

It has been quite a while since Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found incapacitated on a bench. They have since been brought back to health. Why is there no talk with them?

Yulia gave a brief press conference and doesn't seem too keen on going back to Russia any time soon (who'd blame her). No official word from Sergei yet.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Fully agree - it was an excellent inside job.

A Russian nerve agent has been confirmed. A Russian spy-turned-traitor has been targeted. Russian legislation was previously passed making it easier to authorise the killing of "extremists" abroad (which was closely followed by another "inside job" where a hated Russian spy-turned-traitor was poisoned by Polonium traced to Russian reactors). All of this during an ongoing atmosphere during Putin's tenure of murders and assassinations of Russian opposition politicians, lawyers, spies, journalists.

And all this time it was obviously Sweden

But it hasn't. Now you're just reaching Dohnjoe.

All you have to do is look at this objectively.

I'm not trying to play Devil's Advocate here. I'm just looking at the facts.
The British say that the Skripals were poisoned with a toxin....and then it becomes all vague. It's suddenly "of a type originally developed in Russia". Then it's of a type "we are confident was developed in Russia" and then the argument changes when this toxin was actually developed in Uzbekistan.

So...then we have a complete confusion about how it was delivered.

The story went from it being administered in a restaurant.

Then it was put in Yulia Skripal's luggage.

Then it was applied to the door handle of the house.

Apparently it was "military grade" nerve pedigree, yet the Skripals are both alive.

The pets in the house are, or at least WERE fine, until they were killed and incinerated.

Nobody has been allowed access to the Skripals.

The UK have refused to allow diplomatic access to the Skripals in contravention of diplomatics protocol.

The Porton Down Research facility have claimed to identify the toxin yet have refused to state its origin, despite politicians insisting they have ironclad proof that it was a poison developed in Russia and administered FROM Russia.


This episode is very amateurish.

The UK are hiding something. And why would would they do that?

If they are so 100% sure then why hide anything?

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Not really, I think most people suspect Putin straight off the bat (the 28 odd countries that expelled diplomats obviously believe the intelligence)

The investigation hasn't concluded yet, so we can't really call it anyway.



Yulia gave a brief press conference and doesn't seem too keen on going back to Russia any time soon (who'd blame her). No official word from Sergei yet.

The investigation hasn't concluded yet....YOUR WORDS.

If not then why have measures and punishments already been exacted?
Why have diplomats been expelled? This smacks of "Sentence first, Verdict later!" ... according to the Red Queen in Alice In Wonderland.

But to add to that, you mention that 28 countries have believed the intelligence and hence have expelled diplomats.

How many "believed" the lies about Iraq in 2002/2003? To be honest, probably not one. They went along with the bulldozer. Countries like Togo pledged 1 soldier in order to make up the numbers and pad out the "Coalition of the Willing" and in return for some fiscal gain.

Portugal, Austria and several other countries refused to be steamrolled into kicking out Russian diplomats and one has to admire their resolve....even though their job is not to be bullied or bullsh1tted.

Your "intelligence", Dohnjoe, is good enough for diplomats to be expelled yet you state that an investigation is yet to be concluded.

Can you clarify such a glaring contradiction?

Cheerful Spring

Chrongen wrote: »

Nobody is interested in other theories.

What most people are interested in is the proof that the Skripals were attacked in Salisbury and that this attack was orchestrated by a government, namely the Government of The Russian Federation. Also that this murder attempt was sanctioned by a foreign leader.

This has been the narrative since the event was reported.

It has been quite a while since Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found incapacitated on a bench. They have since been brought back to health. Why is there no talk with them?

Dohnjoe world everything is how he sees it with his own eyes. He thinks the American and UK governments are beacons of light fighting the evil dark forces of the world. He doesn't really understand, not everything about the world, will be found in a school book, on Sky News and BBC. These people are lost cause there too far gone to change now. You could show them evidence jihadists gassed children and MI6 kiled tried to kill Skipral and they still think this is not right it has to be the Russians and Assad.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

The British say that the Skripals were poisoned with a toxin

It's confirmed to be Novichok by the Brits and OPCW. I doubt they know with 100% certainty exactly which Novichok it is, hell it could even be a slightly newer derivative, which is probably why they are being very careful with their wording.. hence "from the family of Novichoks" and so on

argument changes when this toxin was actually developed in Uzbekistan.

How does it change?

So...then we have a complete confusion about how it was delivered.

We still don't know, we aren't privy to all the details of the on-going investigation

The story went

I can see where this is going, there's no "story" or "narrative" here, there is a sequence of events, some parts they are certain of, some parts of speculated (pending the investigation) and some parts are unknown (pending the investigation)

e.g. there was a thread here on the Vegas shooting. Police determined early on that he acted alone. As an investigation goes on, it's possible for them to have information (and choose to release that information) and not have other information. It's also possible that some old information changes in light of new information.

Conspiracy thinking often uses this to discredit the on-going findings of an event by making it appear that the "story" is changing.

Apparently it was "military grade" nerve pedigree, yet the Skripals are both alive.

Yup, but depends on the dosage.

The pets in the house are, or at least WERE fine, until they were killed and incinerated.

According to what we know, police sealed the house - apparently the guinea pigs died and the cat had to be put down.

Nobody has been allowed access to the Skripals.

Well someone did try to poison them with a military grade nerve agent..

The UK have refused to allow diplomatic access to the Skripals in contravention of diplomatics protocol.

Dunno about that, but good.

The Porton Down Research facility have claimed to identify the toxin yet have refused to state its origin, despite politicians insisting they have ironclad proof that it was a poison developed in Russia and administered FROM Russia.

Nah twisting things a bit there. Porton Down may have suspicions but it's not their job to identify where exactly this was produced (that's the hard bit) only to identify what it was. Most politicians have been careful with their wording, using phrases like "highly likely". Boris - not so much.

The UK are hiding something.

Your personal assertion.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Dohnjoe world everything is how he sees it with his own eyes. He thinks the American and UK governments are beacons of light fighting the evil dark forces of the world. He doesn't really understand, not everything about the world, will be found in a school book, on Sky News and BBC. These people are lost cause there too far gone to change now. You could show them evidence jihadists gassed children and MI6 kiled tried to kill Skipral and they still think this is not right it has to be the Russians and Assad.

People who have set fringe world views are often unable to view events in an objective manner. They typically see the world in terms of sides, simplistic black/white narratives and will often distort information to fit that belief. For example when I was protesting against the Iraq war, I noticed there were extreme types who weren't just against architects of the war, they literally hated the countries involved (which makes no sense) by extension they felt they had to support Saddam (which makes even less sense)

People with these mindsets have a tendency to support far-fetched conspiracies, not because they were true, but because these conspiracies implicate the entities they dislike and thus fit their belief system

There is an even more extreme version of this; if there is e.g. a foreign attack on the soil of country X, Y, Z - because they dislike their personifications of these countries so much, they will, by nature, implicate these countries in the attack. Often by any means necessary. They will go to extremes of discrediting anything that doesn't implicate those countries, they will distort information, hide context, deliberately be untruthful

mcmoustache

If the Russians had been able to stick to one story, they might be credible. Instead, they come out with loads of contradictory theories about what happened. And some people are upset that they aren't taken seriously.

Dohnjoe

mcmoustache wrote: »

If the Russians had been able to stick to one story, they might be credible. Instead, they come out with loads of contradictory theories about what happened. And some people are upset that they aren't taken seriously.

(Using "accused of" before everything) This same administration is accused of using Polonium to murder an ex-spy, denies it, then shelters the suspects. Boldly assassinating prominent opposition figures/lawyers/journalists, denies it, spreads disinformation. Directly helping rebels down flight MH17, whilst denying it, whilst fabricating conspiracies about it. Annexing territory whilst denying it (then in a rare move admitting it) Sparking a war in neighbouring country, denies it, spreads disinformation. Deploying troops and weaponry in said war whilst denying it, whilst fabricating conspiracies about it. Interfering in foreign democratic elections, denies it. Running propaganda factories, denies it. Destabilising and spreading propaganda about neighboring country and parties within that country, spreads conspiracy theories, denies it. Running national doping scandal, denies it. Protecting dictator from international action, spreads conspiracies..

Each case is another "inside job" or fabricated propaganda. Almost like some kind of pattern of behavior.

This autocratic, corrupt administration, which has no real opposition remaining, has an iron grip on the media in the country, a whipped parliament.. is always the victim of these foreign "inside jobs".

I am shocked that this administrations denials and 15 different explanations on the Skripal case is not being taken seriously by the international community

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

People who have set fringe world views are often unable to view events in an objective manner. They typically see the world in terms of sides, simplistic black/white narratives and will often distort information to fit that belief. For example when I was protesting against the Iraq war, I noticed there were extreme types who weren't just against architects of the war, they literally hated the countries involved (which makes no sense) by extension they felt they had to support Saddam (which makes even less sense)

People with these mindsets have a tendency to support far-fetched conspiracies, not because they were true, but because these conspiracies implicate the entities they dislike and thus fit their belief system

There is an even more extreme version of this; if there is e.g. a foreign attack on the soil of country X, Y, Z - because they dislike their personifications of these countries so much, they will, by nature, implicate these countries in the attack. Often by any means necessary. They will go to extremes of discrediting anything that doesn't implicate those countries, they will distort information, hide context, deliberately be untruthful

Polls in American have shown the majority of the population there believe the US government is hiding information about 9/11. You need to not stop calling the 9/11 conspiracy fringe.

I see the world how it really is Dohnjoe you under some illusion false flags and double dealings don't happen behind the scenes? Maybe you need to research this verifiable history?

9/11 conspiracy has mountains of evidence. You even denied to me the 29 pages had any information about Saudi Officials meeting 9/11 hijackers? Saudi government lobbied hard to stop the 9/11 families court case against Saudi Arabia involvement in 9/11, what happened? The court ruled for the families they said there was enough evidence there to continue with the proceedings.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

(Using "accused of" before everything) This same administration is accused of using Polonium to murder an ex-spy, denies it, then shelters the suspects. Boldly assassinating prominent opposition figures/lawyers/journalists, denies it, spreads disinformation. Directly helping rebels down flight MH17, whilst denying it, whilst fabricating conspiracies about it. Annexing territory whilst denying it (then in a rare move admitting it) Sparking a war in neighbouring country, denies it, spreads disinformation. Deploying troops and weaponry in said war whilst denying it, whilst fabricating conspiracies about it. Interfering in foreign democratic elections, denies it. Running propaganda factories, denies it. Destabilising and spreading propaganda about neighboring country and parties within that country, spreads conspiracy theories, denies it. Running national doping scandal, denies it. Protecting dictator from international action, spreads conspiracies..

Each case is another "inside job" or fabricated propaganda. Almost like some kind of pattern of behavior.

This autocratic, corrupt administration, which has no real opposition remaining, has an iron grip on the media in the country, a whipped parliament.. is always the victim of these foreign "inside jobs".

I am shocked that this administrations denials and 15 different explanations on the Skripal case is not being taken seriously by the international community

You ignoring crucial bits of information, in those events though.

Fact not conspiracy: Mario Scaramella met Litvinenko before he met any Russian agents that day and he was poisoned with p-210. How can two Russian agents poison Mario when they are across London staying at a hotel?

Fact not conspiracy: Putin has publically addressed this and denied the murder of journalists and opposition figures and has called those events horrible tragedies. Some of those now dead journalists were talking about Russian organised crime activities before their death. Ignored by the West though Putin has denied involvement the West continues with it the conspiracy against Putin.

Fact not conspiracy: MH17, The plane was shot down by a BUK anti-air system build by the Soviets and manufactured by the Ukrainians. Both sides use this equipment. I don't know who shot down the plane, but we know this much Putin and Russian generals did not give the order.

Fact not conspiracy: Ukraine experienced a revolution organised by Nato proxies and Fascist Neo-Nazi Ukraine thugs. Russia took Crimea back to protect the Russia people there, Nazis marching in the streets of Kiev with their torches and Nazi banners, supported by the West.

I could continue on but you can't fix stupid.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Polls in American have shown the majority of the population there believe the US government is hiding information about 9/11. You need to not stop calling the 9/11 conspiracy fringe.

Polls show that a significant number of people across the Middle East do not believe the Holocaust happened

This is an indicator of levels of education, prejudice, etc.

Likewise according to a Russian poll, one third of Russians believe the sun travels around the earth. Again, levels of education.

I personally know a significant number of people who have some belief in ghosts

This is why we live in representative democracies, emphasis on representative.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Fact not conspiracy:

I could continue on but you can't fix stupid.

Personal assertions and assumptions presented as fact

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Polls show that a significant number of people across the Middle East do not believe the Holocaust happened

This is an indicator of levels of education, prejudice, etc.

Likewise according to a Russian poll, one third of Russians believe the sun travels around the earth. Again, levels of education.

I personally know a significant number of people who have some belief in ghosts

This is why we live in representative democracies, emphasis on representative.

I don 't believe the holocust happened as stated either i researched this topic extensively lot of information i found does not support Nazis killing 6 million Jews.

In people minds, Schindler list is what people think happened at Auchwitz and they are right, but what Steven Spielberg failed to tell you is the SS removed Amon Goth in 1944 for his cruelty against Jews and had him locked up in mental home. This not what you expect to happen if Hitler had ordered the killing of Jews in Gas chambers on a mass industrial scale. Nobody found a single piece of evidence or document to proof the holocust happened!

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don 't believe the holocust happened as stated either i researched this topic extensively lot of information i found does not support Nazis killing 6 million Jews.

I'm not the slightest bit surprised

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I'm not the slightest bit surprised

You never researched the topic, obviously.

Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****. Red Cross estimated in 1979 around 270,000 Jews died, this number jumped to 3 million, then 4 million, then 5 million, then 6 million where it is at now.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You never researched the topic, obviously.

Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****. Red Cross estimated in 1979 around 270,000 Jews died, then jumped to 3 million, then 4 million, then 5 million, then 6 million.

And can we assume that you also subscribe to the idea the moon landing was faked?
Is the Earth flat also?

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

And can we assume that you also subscribe to the idea the moon landing was faked?
Is the Earth flat also?

I describe we went to the moon, but some photographs look fake.

I don't believe in Flat Earth.


Next?


This one from the Moon does not make sense because of the object height (right side) in his visor.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You never researched the topic, obviously.

Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****. Red Cross estimated in 1979 around 270,000 Jews died, this number jumped to 3 million, then 4 million, then 5 million, then 6 million where it is at now.

Really?

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Really?

Really, and? What do you want me to answer?

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Really, and? What do you want me to answer?

So for you - the figure is 270k Jews killed in the Holocaust, correct?

Would you say the figures for Soviet POWs, Roma, gypsies, homosexuals, etc are correct though? or are you just focused on the Jews

mcmoustache

I think that to prevent things getting confused, Cheerful should start a "Did the holocaust really happen?" thread. Or maybe "Was the holocaust as bad as they say?"


There's no point mixing up the holocaust with the skripal stuff.

Dohnjoe

mcmoustache wrote: »

I think that to prevent things getting confused, Cheerful should start a "Did the holocaust really happen?" thread. Or maybe "Was the holocaust as bad as they say?"


There's no point mixing up the holocaust with the skripal stuff.

Yeah I agree, just to keep the issue separate, maybe they should open the thread on After Hours

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So for you - the figure is 270k Jews killed in the Holocaust, correct?

Would you say the figures for Soviet POWs, Roma, gypsies, homosexuals, etc are correct though? or are you just focused on the Jews

I don't think 6 million number is correct, and I don't believe the 4 million number I heard a decade ago is correct. Any this stage I think we will ever know the true number.

I don't deny Nazis crimes in places like Auschwitz, it obvious bad stuff happened there. Still, I have a hard time believing thousands of people arrived each day on Trains and were showered with Zylon 12 and bodies were burned each day and this continued on every day and camp occupants did not go mad and try to overthrow the guards and escape?

What I think happened people were showered to stop disease and people were buried in huge pits when they died. And how can people calculate the Jewish population after the war if nobody counting where they went after. Millions of Jews escaped to America and the Middle East.

mcmoustache

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yeah I agree, just to keep the issue separate, maybe they should open the thread on After Hours

I'm not sure. The mods would probably just send it over here. Then again, no harm to try - it's a busier place after all, not that i'll be engaging.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yeah I agree, just to keep the issue separate, maybe they should open the thread on After Hours

Don't bother after hours isn't the place for this topic. Discussing here is it.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Don't bother after hours isn't the place for this topic. Discussing here is it.

On this, we agree.

Chrongen

Owryan wrote: »

A valid reason would be the next time a Russian spy/agent/VIP thinks about defecting or becoming a double agent a little voice night remind them of what happened in the UK.

It also sends a message to others who are in a similar position that they are not safe.

This doesn't make any sense and it certainly doesn't make any sense in the context of using chemical weapons to kill somebody.

Spies, informants and double-agents already know that they are taking their lives into their own hands. They already know that they could be assassinated if their handlers cut them loose or are not "on top of things".

Besides, the system of spy and prisoner swaps is something that neither side wants to jeopardise. It's a valuable tool in one's arsenal when it comes to concessions, negotiations etc.

Thinking that this was just an act of hot-headed, petty, bitchiness is naive in the extreme. You don't just murder (or worse botch a murder) someone where there is no gain and certainly don't do it if the consequences are negative for you.

There was NOTHING to gain by killing a has-been like Skripal. Nothing and if they wanted him out of the way, truly, then he would have been killed stone dead and no trail would have led anywhere.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's confirmed to be Novichok by the Brits and OPCW. I doubt they know with 100% certainty exactly which Novichok it is, hell it could even be a slightly newer derivative, which is probably why they are being very careful with their wording.. hence "from the family of Novichoks" and so on



How does it change?



We still don't know, we aren't privy to all the details of the on-going investigation



I can see where this is going, there's no "story" or "narrative" here, there is a sequence of events, some parts they are certain of, some parts of speculated (pending the investigation) and some parts are unknown (pending the investigation)

e.g. there was a thread here on the Vegas shooting. Police determined early on that he acted alone. As an investigation goes on, it's possible for them to have information (and choose to release that information) and not have other information. It's also possible that some old information changes in light of new information.

Conspiracy thinking often uses this to discredit the on-going findings of an event by making it appear that the "story" is changing.



Yup, but depends on the dosage.



According to what we know, police sealed the house - apparently the guinea pigs died and the cat had to be put down.



Well someone did try to poison them with a military grade nerve agent..



Dunno about that, but good.



Nah twisting things a bit there. Porton Down may have suspicions but it's not their job to identify where exactly this was produced (that's the hard bit) only to identify what it was. Most politicians have been careful with their wording, using phrases like "highly likely". Boris - not so much.



Your personal assertion.

You've conveniently ignored my question with regards to the fact, a fact you've stated yourself on quite a few occasions, that the investigation is ongoing. If the investigation is ongoing then why have Russian diplomats been expelled?

If Russian diplomats have been expelled because it is a 100% lock that Russia attempted to murder the Skripals then why the ongoing investigation?

And if it's necessary to have an ongoing investigation then why the expulsions before the results of that investigation?

These are VERY simple questions so I would appreciate it if you didn't fudge some answer such as "can't release the evidence on the grounds that it might jeopardise National Security" or some other such lame sop of an excuse.

Dohnjoe

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm not sure. The mods would probably just send it over here. Then again, no harm to try - it's a busier place after all, not that i'll be engaging.

If I recall, the last poster to bring it up there was permo banned

Was worth a shot

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

People who have set fringe world views are often unable to view events in an objective manner. They typically see the world in terms of sides, simplistic black/white narratives and will often distort information to fit that belief. For example when I was protesting against the Iraq war, I noticed there were extreme types who weren't just against architects of the war, they literally hated the countries involved (which makes no sense) by extension they felt they had to support Saddam (which makes even less sense)

People with these mindsets have a tendency to support far-fetched conspiracies, not because they were true, but because these conspiracies implicate the entities they dislike and thus fit their belief system

There is an even more extreme version of this; if there is e.g. a foreign attack on the soil of country X, Y, Z - because they dislike their personifications of these countries so much, they will, by nature, implicate these countries in the attack. Often by any means necessary. They will go to extremes of discrediting anything that doesn't implicate those countries, they will distort information, hide context, deliberately be untruthful

What you're engaging in is non-sequiturs.

When a country like the US attacks/invades another country for whatever reason, a reason I might add is seldom if ever the true motive, they embark upon a campaign of vilification, propaganda, distortion and fear mongering.

The common reaction to suspicion, doubt and outrage regarding their less than altruistic motives is to paint the skeptics as either a. "anti-American", b. "pro-enemy" or c. both.

People don't like to be played for fools and they don't like to be lied to. They also don't like to be marginalised because they can see that the Emperor has no clothes.

You say you protested against the Iraq War. Can I ask what your reasons were?
Were you convinced that America was simply destroying another country for monetary and hegemonic gain or was it something a little more banal?

And if it was the former then how can you reconcile yourself with other slaughters that they have visited upon people, again for fiscal and geopolitical gain?

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

If the investigation is ongoing then why have Russian diplomats been expelled?

Because they can

The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Polls show that a significant number of people across the Middle East do not believe the Holocaust happened

This is an indicator of levels of education, prejudice, etc.

Likewise according to a Russian poll, one third of Russians believe the sun travels around the earth. Again, levels of education.

I personally know a significant number of people who have some belief in ghosts

This is why we live in representative democracies, emphasis on representative.

Dohnjoe,

using the beliefs of the clueless does not nullify the doubts of the skeptics.

That is a shabby trick on your part. It is scientifically proven that the Sun does not travel around the Earth yet some fools will still believe that it does. This does NOT mean that your belief that fairies DON'T exist are without base.

A very poor attempt at a counter-argument.

A sizeable proportion of people believed that there was a coverup surrounding events such as Bloody Sunday, The Guildford Four, The Hillsborough Disaster...and they were right. Because a coverup IS and WAS possible and was proven and exposed.

The Sun going around the Earth is NOT possible so equating the two beliefs is disingenuous.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I'm not the slightest bit surprised

Well, personally, I believe the Holocaust occurred. The camps are there, the survivors are there, the accounts and stories are there. I wasn't alive at the time nor did I witness it but I'm pretty sure or at least I have to believe it happened, sadly.

I do, however, have my questions about certain things that I have been told about the Holocaust. I suspect it has been exploited and embellished for political gain.

I have my doubts about the numbers and I suspect Western collusion or at least acquiescence but that's another story.

Chrongen

King Mob wrote: »

And can we assume that you also subscribe to the idea the moon landing was faked?
Is the Earth flat also?

There's no need to be childish. You'd do better if you avoided the adolescent jibes in this discussion.