Salisbury nerve agent attack a false flag/decoy operation?

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

I have my doubts about the numbers

Numbers of..?

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Because they can

The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats

Dohnjoe, now that is just a pitiful, pathetic explanation.

"Because they can!"

Have you any inkling about the intricacies of international diplomatic protocol? Do you think it's just like a bouncer refusing entry to some pub because he doesn't like the way the punter is dressed or the smell of his aftershave?

Tell me why these governments expelled Russian diplomats, en masse. And don't give me some answer like "Because they can" or "Just because, whatever!"

We are dealing with facts here, yet you seem addicted to the word "probably".

They "probably" did it. The intelligence services "probably" or "likely" have the goods on them.

Is that line really good enough for you?

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Numbers of..?

There have been questions about the numbers of casualties. Those are the numbers I'm referring to. 12 million, 6 million, 3 million. It's difficult to get a grasp on the veracity of the numbers, appalling as they may be.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

There have been questions about the numbers of casualties. Those are the numbers I'm referring to. 12 million, 6 million, 3 million. It's difficult to get a grasp on the veracity of the numbers, appalling as they may be.

Just go to Wiki, it's right there. Or any Jewish/Holocaust info site.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

Tell me why these governments expelled Russian diplomats, en masse. And don't give me some answer like "Because they can" or "Just because, whatever!"

Don't know what more to add, they did it. The non-public intelligence seemed to be a pretty compelling factor. The US just slapped a bunch of new sanctions on Russia based on their election meddling.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Because they can

The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats

So if these diplomats are not in fact diplomats, but intelligence agents, as you are trying to maintain, then why were they not expelled long before the Salisbury episode and why wasn't a reason given for it?

Dohnjoe, I don't know if you've ever seen that movie " A Few Good Men" but this reminds me of a courtroom exchange that went something like:

"Colonel Jessup, if you ORDERED that Santiago wasn't to be touched, and your orders are ALWAYS followed, then why would he be in danger? Why the need to transfer him off the base?"

I asked you a very simple question, one it appears you can't answer and you are giving lame excuses like "Well, the diplomats were probably spies so getting them out was a good thing!".

Do you really think that is how things are done and/or should be done?

Why the need for an episode like the Skripal affair in order to kick out diplomats or "spies", according to you? Why?

Before you respond, I'd respectfully ask you to not stuff the word "probably" into your answer.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Numbers of..?

Jews living in Europe in 1933 it was 9.3 million. About 2 million Jews people emigrated to foreign lands from 1933 to 1945 (this could be a low ball figure it might be even higher) Anyway that leaves 7.3 million.

After the war the Jewish population of Europe was about 4 to 5 million people between 1945 to until 1950...

2.3 million people missing or just unaccounted for? We forgetting though Europe was a battle zone. Civilians were massacred, whole towns and villages shelled and bombed, nobody can say for sure Jews were not casualties of war?

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Just go to Wiki, it's right there. Or any Jewish/Holocaust info site.

I'm not going to go to Wikipedia or any other site that hasn't been vetted through a clearing house. Wikipedia is fine for things like "what is the currency of Gabon" or "how many degrees are there in a triangle?"

I'm not going to trust it for historical accounts. And that's all I want to discuss on the Holocaust matter within the realms of this debate.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

So if these diplomats are not in fact diplomats, but intelligence agents, as you are trying to maintain, then why were they not expelled long before the Salisbury episode and why wasn't a reason given for it?

Because they are "diplomats", same goes for every country. Embassies are well known to have a twin purpose, normal diplomatic activity and espionage/intelligence gathering

Expelling diplomats is one tool that a government has to punish another government

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

I'm not going to trust it for historical accounts.

Well you can rely on Wiki in this case, it's sourced. And correlates with e.g. Holocaust history sites.

Cheerful Spring

Geography, it is us against them.

International relations. Russia backing Actors Nato wants to destroy and replace.

Politics. Trump facing a battle to keep his presidency the American establishment needs a new enemy is now Russia. Trump just playing along.

Regarding Syria. Frankly, I think Russia acting too soft before they should arm Syria and Iran will everything they have got to defend themselves. I have seen some movement on that front and Israel is worried now.Should have thought about the consequences kept bombing sites in Syria.

Ahhhh for forks sake!

It's fake news to make Russia look bad.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Don't know what more to add, they did it. The non-public intelligence seemed to be a pretty compelling factor. The US just slapped a bunch of new sanctions on Russia based on their election meddling.

"Seemed" is not good enough.

Anybody can "seem" to have done something if you just assert that they have.

The Birmingham Six "seemed" to have committed a dreadful crime PURELY because a few in power said so. Those in power or with an agenda also refused to entertain any explanations contrary to their assertions.

Remember one thing, Dohnjoe. There are lies and there is the truth. A lot of people believe lies simply because they don't want to admit they've been lied to.

How many mothers have refused to believe that their son was abused by a priest simply because they don't WANT to believe it. They don't want to admit that their own trust was betrayed. Their own judgement was completely flawed, ill-placed and compromised.

The facts and the truth are for the courageous, no matter how uncomfortable, disturbing or disgusting.

Seeking comfort in lies is for those who lack moral fibre.

You just blithely say "They did it", and on top of that you say "The US just slapped a bunch of sanctions on them because of election meddling". Yet you don't for a moment question any of this.

I'm fascinated as to why.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Well you can rely on Wiki in this case, it's sourced. And correlates with e.g. Holocaust history sites.

I already told you that I wasn't going to be drawn on the Holocaust. I have my doubts about the numbers of deaths and it may have been a mistake for me to even mention this. I'm not denying the Holocaust so let's just put that discussion aside, if you don't mind.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

Yet you don't for a moment question any of this.

Bizarre assumption to make.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Well you can rely on Wiki in this case, it's sourced. And correlates with e.g. Holocaust history sites.

Wikipedia cannot be relied upon for historical accounts. AT ALL.

If you were to write a paper in a university citing Wikipedia as a source, your effort would be scrunched up and thrown in the bin by the professor.

I have spoken to professors and they have failed students for citing Wikipedia as a source.

So please, don't tell me, or other academics that it is something worth anything other that general knowledge trivia.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Bizarre assumption to make.

Are you going to answer ANY questions that have been directed to you?

Why were Russians expelled without a conclusion to the investigation that you say is ongoing?

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

Wikipedia cannot be relied upon for historical accounts.

I think you have misunderstood. If you have "no idea" of the numbers, you can reference Wiki.. it is sourced. You can check the sources. If you wish to go deeper you can correlate with further sources, e.g. historical sites, Holocaust history sites

You mentioned you were confused over the numbers. Those numbers take less time to reference, source, correlate with additional sources.. than it takes to write these replies

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

Why were Russians expelled without a conclusion to the investigation that you say is ongoing?

Have already replied to this.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood. If you have "no idea" of the numbers, you can reference Wiki.. it is sourced. You can check the sources. If you wish to go deeper you can correlate with further sources, e.g. historical sites, Holocaust history sites

You mentioned you were confused over the numbers. Those numbers take less time to reference, source, correlate with additional sources.. than it takes to write these replies

Better question how many Jews do you think died in the camps and what historical sources did you look at?

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Better question how many Jews do you think died in the camps and what historical sources did you look at?

I don't have any personal opinion. Historical consensus by experts is around 6 mm Jews.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I don't have any personal opinion. Historical consensus by experts is around 6 mm Jews.

6 million Jews is not backed up historical resources, the 6 million figure came from Jewish holocust online sites. I can prove the 6 million figure is bogus using historical resources.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

6 million Jews is not backed up historical resources, the 6 million figure came from Jewish holocust online sites. I can prove the 6 million figure is bogus using historical resources.

Wow. Okay, go on so.. but create a separate thread

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Wow. Okay, go on so.. but create a separate thread

It takes too long to write up now I want to but I get it later I want to talk about 9/11 now. If you want to make a different thread I post in there later.

mcmoustache

This is the Salisbury thread, right? I know that Russians love to firehose a thread with nonsense but this is getting ridiculous. Can you please start a separate thread on the holocaust as this is getting tiresome?

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

This is the Salisbury thread, right? I know that Russians love to firehose a thread with nonsense but this is getting ridiculous. Can you please start a separate thread on the holocaust as this is getting tiresome?

Dohnjoe talked the holocaust in his post I didn't mention till he did. Sure I invited him to make a new thread to discuss it there.

Im Irish and I live in Munster if you want to know, i not Russian.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood. If you have "no idea" of the numbers, you can reference Wiki.. it is sourced. You can check the sources. If you wish to go deeper you can correlate with further sources, e.g. historical sites, Holocaust history sites

You mentioned you were confused over the numbers. Those numbers take less time to reference, source, correlate with additional sources.. than it takes to write these replies

Dohnjoe. I think I made it very clear that a discussion herein with respect to subjects such as the veracity of Wikipedia or the numbers killed during the Holocaust was a discussion for another platform.

Why do you dwell on them?

Can we get back to the debate at hand?

If you bring up these subjects again then I will only think that you are not serious in your discussion.

Are you attempting to simply derail the conversation?

I asked you to explain why Russian diplomats were expelled even as an investigation is ongoing and heretofore inconclusive and you cannot answer the question.

Actually your explanation was something along the lines of "because they can [expel diplomats]"


So......without any proof that Russia and the Russian government produced, and delivered and attempted to kill Sergie Skripal with a nerve agent, and while an investigation is ongoing, WHY have Russian diplomats been expelled from many countries? And why has one been expelled from the Republic of Ireland?

It's a very simple question.

Chrongen

And now we have this crap:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/951191/russia-news-novichok-sergei-skripal-creator-injured-moscow-car-crash

FFS, how absolutely pathetic are the attempts to make it look like a pair were poisoned by Putin?


:pac:

mcmoustache

Chrongen wrote: »

And now we have this crap:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/951191/russia-news-novichok-sergei-skripal-creator-injured-moscow-car-crash

FFS, how absolutely pathetic are the attempts to make it look like a pair were poisoned by Putin?


:pac:

Ah, the crazy Express. By now I'd think that most people know that this particular incident was an accident and nothing nefarious.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

Dohnjoe. I think I made it very clear that a discussion herein with respect to subjects such as the veracity of Wikipedia or the numbers killed during the Holocaust was a discussion for another platform.

Why do you dwell on them?

Because it's a part of the pantomime of nonsense in these threads. Holocaust deniers and so on. But I will gladly move on

I asked you to explain why Russian diplomats were expelled even as an investigation is ongoing and heretofore inconclusive and you cannot answer the question.

Which I have replied to

Actually your explanation was something along the lines of "because they can [expel diplomats]"

A part of my answer

And why has one been expelled from the Republic of Ireland?

Likely because they've found the private intelligence to be compelling. Varadkar also mentioned solidarity with the UK and international community against use of chemical attacks.

It's good in that it sends a universal message to the Kremlin that they can't keep these antics up

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Have already replied to this.

"Because they can"

is not an answer.

It's what you'd expect from a truculent adolescent who can't explain himself.

Dohnjoe

Chrongen wrote: »

"Because they can"

is not an answer.

It's what you'd expect from a truculent adolescent who can't explain himself.

And this bit

"The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats"

For example, Macron, who's been trying to renew ties with Russia stated that he would remain skeptical on the issue - however after being presented with the UK intelligence dossier on the attack (apparently one of the largest ever shared in recent history) he entirely changed tack and kicked out diplomats.

Will be amusing if the investigation turns up some rogue agents or another country entirely.

Chrongen

Dohnjoe wrote: »

And this bit

"The private intelligence is probably pretty convincing, it seemed to have a fairly immediate effect on a skeptical Trump and Macron. That aside, many countries are tired of Russia's information war and hybrid warfare, whch is a good as reason as any to boot out some intelligence agents diplomats"

For example, Macron, who's been trying to renew ties with Russia stated that he would remain skeptical on the issue - however after being presented with the UK intelligence dossier on the attack (apparently one of the largest ever shared in recent history) he entirely changed tack and kicked out diplomats.

Will be amusing if the investigation turns up some rogue agents or another country entirely.

Now Dohnjoe, you've already fairly weakly sidestepped a question and one that is very important when it comes to the LAW and INTERNATIONAL PROTOCOL.

On top of that "because they can" attempt on your part you are now throwing words [much as I asked you not to do] such as "probably" and "it seemed".

If I was to trawl back how many words such as "maybe" or "most likely" would I find?

You have now simply admitted that it's fine to expel diplomats. Not because of anything concrete but simply because you "can".

If you would like to take that attitude to a representative of every country in the world ... even at a scouts jamboree, you would be frowned upon and vilified.

But if that's the way you think the world works, or how it ought to work in your head then crack on.

Chrongen

"Novichok" vodka now available in Russia

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6146633/russia-novichok-vodka-jibe-salisbury-poisoning/

:pac::pac::pac:

Absolutely brilliant. They should have Teresa May and Boris Johnson shot glasses to go with each bottle.

King Mob

Chrongen wrote: »

But if that's the way you think the world works, or how it ought to work in your head then crack on.

But the Jews faked the Holocaust, yea?

Literally every point you make is unlined by the fact you deny the holocaust.
Either you are biased in some very irreparable way or you are incapable of determining racist propaganda from reality. Either way, no one's going to take you angle on things very seriously.

Also you harp on some one using Wikipedia, then link **** from the daily Express, and that is just hilarious.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

But the Jews faked the Holocaust, yea?

Literally every point you make is unlined by the fact you deny the holocaust.
Either you are biased in some very irreparable way or you are incapable of determining racist propaganda from reality. Either way, no one's going to take you angle on things very seriously.

Also you harp on some one using Wikipedia, then link **** from the daily Express, and that is just hilarious.

Nobody denying concentration camps existed, but another thing, to claim 6 million Jews were wiped out in a few years. The numbers don't add up because we have a census a historical record of how many Jews lived in Europe in 1933 it was 9.5 million.

After the war, there was 4 to 5 million still left in Europe. And many millions more emigrated to different countries during the period of 1933 to 1950.

And most 1 to 2 million Jews is unaccounted for.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Nobody denying concentration camps existed, but another thing, to claim 6 million Jews were wiped out in a few years. The numbers don't add up because we have a census a historical record of how many Jews lived in Europe in 1933 it was 9.5 million.

After the war, there was 4 to 5 million still left in Europe. And many millions more emigrated to different countries during the period of 1933 to 1950.

And most 1 to 2 million Jews is unaccounted for.

This is Holocaust denial.

Yes, you and the people you read and support have and are denying concentration camps existed.

You are claiming this because you have swallowed racist propaganda without critical thought.

But please, link away, I'm sure your sources aren't going to be horribly racist.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

This is Holocaust denial.

Yes, you and the people you read and support have and are denying concentration camps existed.

You are claiming this because you have swallowed racist propaganda without critical thought.

But please, link away, I'm sure your sources aren't going to be horribly racist.

Holocaust denial is claiming no Jews were killed in concentration camps I don't support that theory at all. If you researched the most notorious camp Auschwitz, for example, you find out that Nazi SS removed Amon Goth the commandant of the camp for cruelty to Jews in 1944. They arrested him, and they put him in the mental home for the insane. Did you hear about this in Schindler list the movie?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Holocaust denial is claiming no Jews were killed in concentration camps I don't support that theory at all. If you researched the most notorious camp Auschwitz, for example, you find out that Nazi SS removed Amon Goth the commandant of the camp for cruelty to Jews in 1944. They arrested him, and they put him in the mental home for the insane. Did you hear about this in Schindler list the movie?

Again, what your doing is just a lesser form of holocaust denial.
It doesn't really excuse it.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Again, what your doing is just a lesser form of holocaust denial.
It doesn't really excuse it.

The Nazis removed him because they did not agree with the way Amon Goth was running the camp. So what that means to the overall narrative in Auschwitz you have to make up your own mind on that

Fact: Göth was relieved of his position and charged by the SS with theft of Jewish property (which belonged to the state, according to Nazi legislation), failure to provide adequate food to the prisoners under his charge, violation of concentration camp regulations regarding the treatment and punishment of prisoners, and allowing unauthorised access to camp personnel records by prisoners and non-commissioned officers

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Nazis removed him because they did not agree with the way Amon Goth was running the camp. So what that means to the overall narrative in Auschwitz you have to make up your own mind on that

I'm going to go with what actual historians say on the matter.
I'm not going to go with what you half remember from reading racist propaganda.

You are a holocaust denier.
If you are not comfortable with that label, maybe stop denying the holocaust?

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

I'm going to go with what actual historians say on the matter.
I'm not going to go with what you half remember from reading racist propaganda.

You are a holocaust denier.
If you are not comfortable with that label, maybe stop denying the holocaust?

That's the historical record. Goth was arrested in 1944 and put in a Mental home for the Insane in Bavaria. SS doctors diagnosed him suffering from a mental disease.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That's the historical record.

So's the number of people killed in the Holocaust.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

So's the number of people killed in the Holocaust.

How can 6 million Jews have died if the Jews themselves claim 4 million Jews were still living in Europe in 1950.

Alamanac of 1933 a respected journal back then reported 9.5 million Jews lived in the whole of Europe.


5.5 million. Then how logical none of that 5.5 million Jews emigrated to the United States, and Israel and other countries during the period of 1933 to 1950. Million of Jews left Europe in that time period.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

How can 6 million Jews have died if the Jews themselves claim 4 million Jews were still living in Europe in 1950.

Alamanac of 1933 a respected journal back then reported 9.5 million Jews lived in the whole of Europe.


5.5 million. Then how logical none of that 5.5 million Jews emigrated to the United States, and Israel and other countries during the period of 1933 to 1950. Million of Jews left Europe in that time period.

But you're not denying the Holocaust, right? :rolleyes:

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

But you're not denying the Holocaust, right? :rolleyes:

Am I using hard data unless you think there were more Jews in Europe that are not accounted for in the historical record? Suspicious the number was 4 million a decade or more ago and jumped now to 6 million?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Am I using hard data

No you're not. you're repeating what you read on some racist propaganda site and now you think you know better than every historian in the world.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

No you're not. you're repeating what you read on some racist propaganda site and now you think you know better than every historian in the world.

I read information from all sources. You can even see that on the other thread I provide sourcing from both sides of the debate.

Here is Almanac from 1933 is not racist propaganda.

Read the line at the bottom!

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I read information from all sources.

Some of those sources being racist propaganda.
I'm not debating points with you as there's no point. It just bares pointing out that Holocaust denial is all based on racist propaganda.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Some of those sources being racist propaganda.
I'm not debating points with you as there's no point. It just bares pointing out that Holocaust denial is all based on racist propaganda.

Like how is that info, racist? Did it not come from a Jewish source?