Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

TheDoc

Just on my take from the weekend, very much just in the camp that the manager is the problem. And he is either going to sort himself out properly or he will just lose the dressing room rapidly. Next season will literally be the crunch for him. He will get the backing, no more excuses (not that he has many legitimate ones this season) splurge a ****tonne of money and if he doesn't deliver he will be sacked as the penny drops with the board he is the problem.

It's at the point where it's just so painstakingly obvious in my eyes. Very few to no top performers week to week, massive consistency issues, no cohesion, team playing a mess. The manager underpins all of that. Players have to take responsibility for themselves, but at the end of the day you see it every year. A dressing room not properly on board, confident and motivated correctly is just an incoherant mess.

Even his post match dress down for the team was just more of the same "It's not my fault". It's pathetic at this stage.

I do genuinelly hope that he changes himself and the way he plays and thinks about football. I'd love to be witness to another Mourinho invention, another lightning rod of creativity. But I probably know the reality is I'm in for another dreary end of season, another poor season dressed up as something it's just not, have some incredible "omfg" over the summer at amazing signings, before the joy of it is sucked dry by a third campaign of watching a team a total mess, before the pressure mounts and he just totally implodes, gets sacked and we have a new manager that has to come in.

I'm just hoping we don't jettison too many quality players and hopefully Woodward can do some good work ensuring Mourinho doesn't just blow our good future prospects. Whatever about clearing out, and some players do need going, there are some players the club should get bold over and ensure we don't have the next De Bruynes and Salah's coming back to bite us.

I'm not going to get overly emotional about it anymore. Been this way for so long about him. So I'm just going to watch the car crash happen, or watch him totally transform himself. One I'd thoroughly enjoy being witness to and could be incredibly exciting, the other I'll just shrug and be like "pfft hardly a surprise" and be glad to be shot of him. I'm pretttttyyy certain only one is going to transpire, which is a pity.

I took minor solace in his post match interview on TV after Brighton when he mentioned about moving faster between the lines. That's was an initial good sign a)He is recognising we need to be faster and b) Recognising we need to move through the midfield which is actually a big change for him (point but then he just went on that rant that made it look like he was washing his hands of it. If that change is tangibly noticed throughout the rest of the season happy days. Or its just more Mourinho bollox.

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

I think its becoming more obvious to me that Shaw will go to Spurs in a part exchange deal for Rose where like Shaw will quickly regain his confidence and form and making a laughing stock out of Mourinho and we get left with an expensive left back who had one good season and is 27.

It's becoming that obvious a conclusion and its laughable

I think Sandro has moved ahead of Rose in the United wish list.

Hopefully so, don't rate Rose at all.

Cantona's Collars

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I think Sandro has moved ahead of Rose in the United wish list.

Hopefully so, don't rate Rose at all.

Plus dealing with Spurs is a nightmare,Levy would squeeze every shilling he could get out of United.

pjohnson

Is Pochettino leaving Spurs or something? If Shaw can't hack Jose then how can he handle Poch?
"‘I felt his head was not in the right place [at Southampton] to make the sacrifices and decisions that are necessary at that age,’ said Pochettino in his upcoming book."

Not exactly the mollycoddling that he apparently needs. Shaw has talent but doesn't seem to give a fiddlers about putting in effort. Top clubs want this effort from players.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Just on my take from the weekend, very much just in the camp that the manager is the problem. And he is either going to sort himself out properly or he will just lose the dressing room rapidly. Next season will literally be the crunch for him. He will get the backing, no more excuses (not that he has many legitimate ones this season) splurge a ****tonne of money and if he doesn't deliver he will be sacked as the penny drops with the board he is the problem.

It's at the point where it's just so painstakingly obvious in my eyes. Very few to no top performers week to week, massive consistency issues, no cohesion, team playing a mess. The manager underpins all of that. Players have to take responsibility for themselves, but at the end of the day you see it every year. A dressing room not properly on board, confident and motivated correctly is just an incoherant mess.

Even his post match dress down for the team was just more of the same "It's not my fault". It's pathetic at this stage.

I do genuinelly hope that he changes himself and the way he plays and thinks about football. I'd love to be witness to another Mourinho invention, another lightning rod of creativity. But I probably know the reality is I'm in for another dreary end of season, another poor season dressed up as something it's just not, have some incredible "omfg" over the summer at amazing signings, before the joy of it is sucked dry by a third campaign of watching a team a total mess, before the pressure mounts and he just totally implodes, gets sacked and we have a new manager that has to come in.

I'm just hoping we don't jettison too many quality players and hopefully Woodward can do some good work ensuring Mourinho doesn't just blow our good future prospects. Whatever about clearing out, and some players do need going, there are some players the club should get bold over and ensure we don't have the next De Bruynes and Salah's coming back to bite us.

I'm not going to get overly emotional about it anymore. Been this way for so long about him. So I'm just going to watch the car crash happen, or watch him totally transform himself. One I'd thoroughly enjoy being witness to and could be incredibly exciting, the other I'll just shrug and be like "pfft hardly a surprise" and be glad to be shot of him. I'm pretttttyyy certain only one is going to transpire, which is a pity.

I took minor solace in his post match interview on TV after Brighton when he mentioned about moving faster between the lines. That's was an initial good sign a)He is recognising we need to be faster and b) Recognising we need to move through the midfield which is actually a big change for him (point but then he just went on that rant that made it look like he was washing his hands of it. If that change is tangibly noticed throughout the rest of the season happy days. Or its just more Mourinho bollox.

Sure DeBruyne and Salah look like big mistakes being let go by Jose but it was a long time ago in a football sense and what manager doesn't have blots on their book in that regard. Who knows maybe it has the added motivation they needed to work harder to become top level maybe they were always going to become world class. No one talks about all the ones he let go that have fallen away.


If Jose left in the summer after a simialr amount of time in charge as LVG you could easily say which one has left a better squad of players behind for the next manager who comes in and a better platform to push on from.

Jose fixes the leaks in squads where talent is needed and maybe (no one really knows) he isn't the best to motivate all players correctly (who is?) he will get in someone of good quality to do the job instead.

One more summer spend and we will have very few areas in the first team we need quality in.

Mitch Connor

Was chatting to my dad, a chelsea fan, and he reckons Salah was rightly sold on (same with Lukaku) as they just weren't good enough. Said he felt Salah got plenty of time and was just rubbish. Left and improved himself.

On KDB he had a similar opinion, wasn't ready to play, and wasn't prepared to wait - but he also feels there was a personality clash between KDB and Jose.

pjohnson

What manager hasn't sold a player that in later years turned out great?

Ferguson certainly mis-sold players. He admitted himself he regretted selling Jaap Stam. Ruud van Nistelrooy had a fine career in Madrid, Diego Forlan had great careers post United. Talking about youngsters Giuseppe Rossi (until his knees turned worse than Hargreaves) and Of course Gerard Piqué hasn't done too badly at his new club.

Cantona's Collars

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Was chatting to my dad, a chelsea fan, and he reckons Salah was rightly sold on (same with Lukaku) as they just weren't good enough. Said he felt Salah got plenty of time and was just rubbish. Left and improved himself.

On KDB he had a similar opinion, wasn't ready to play, and wasn't prepared to wait - but he also feels there was a personality clash between KDB and Jose.

I heard those stories before but they are conveniently forgotten by those who want another excuse to criticise Jose. Imagine if every club kept players who at the time weren't up to scratch or down in the pecking order, they'd have squads of hundreds. Pogba is an example,he wanted more game time, Ferguson wanted to bed him in slowly so he went to Juventus.

yourdeadwright

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Was chatting to my dad, a chelsea fan, and he reckons Salah was rightly sold on (same with Lukaku) as they just weren't good enough. Said he felt Salah got plenty of time and was just rubbish. Left and improved himself.

On KDB he had a similar opinion, wasn't ready to play, and wasn't prepared to wait - but he also feels there was a personality clash between KDB and Jose.

I heard those stories before but they are conveniently forgotten by those who want another excuse to criticise Jose. Imagine if every club kept players who at the time weren't up to scratch or down in the pecking order, they'd have squads of hundreds. Pogba is an example,he wanted more game time, Ferguson wanted to bed him in slowly so he went to Juventus.

Salah only started 6 games for Chelsea , which is hardly enough to know about a player, by that thinking Alexis should be sold off by United at this stage,
One thing about Salah is he has zero defensive duty beyond pressing the guy infront of him, Jose owul

pjohnson wrote: »

What manager hasn't sold a player that in later years turned out great?

Ferguson certainly mis-sold players. He admitted himself he regretted selling Jaap Stam. Ruud van Nistelrooy had a fine career in Madrid, Diego Forlan had great careers post United. Talking about youngsters Giuseppe Rossi (until his knees turned worse than Hargreaves) and  Of course Gerard Piqué hasn't done too badly at his new club.

That's a little different, Stam and RVN where already superstar's when they where sold, they got sold for different reason's than not being good enough,
I agree with Forlan he just didn't suit English football,
To be very fair, it does not happen very often at all where a big club in England sell's a player who then goes on to be great in England (not another league)  it rarely happens if at all ,
Chelsea to pass up on 3 players who are now playing super in  England at the same time is certainly not something we have seen before ,

Adamocovic

pjohnson wrote: »

Is Pochettino leaving Spurs or something? If Shaw can't hack Jose then how can he handle Poch?
"‘I felt his head was not in the right place [at Southampton] to make the sacrifices and decisions that are necessary at that age,’ said Pochettino in his upcoming book."

Not exactly the mollycoddling that he apparently needs. Shaw has talent but doesn't seem to give a fiddlers about putting in effort. Top clubs want this effort from players.

No mollycoddling at all? Remember Luke Shaws quotes about Poch.

‘I think with Southampton he achieved the impossible,’ Shaw wrote. ‘We were one of the best footballing teams in the league… I do hope that I can play for him again one day. And I think he really wants me to play under him again.
‘He used to call me his son, that’s how good our relationship was. I’ve had lots of ups and downs, but when I was with Pochettino it was only ever up, up, up.
‘He made me feel that I was the best. He’d show me clips of my games and say, “You should do this better”. Not in a horrible way. Not I could have done better, but I should have done better, because he knows I can be better.’

Also the quote about his head not being in the right place and making sacrifices, correct me if I am wrong as have not read the book and am only going by what I've been told here, was to do with him breaking a promise that he would stop travelling home to London.

It does say he wasn't a big fan of his attitude when he first came up from the academy but once his work-rate improved so did their relationship.

Now you could argue that the quotes have been exaggerated by Shaw, or taken out of context maybe, but there's no denying that they seemed to have a good relationship. When Shaw and Poch worked together can't recall Poch doing anything other than praising him during interview (but he did have a translator :P) what happens behind closed doors who knows.

Lord TSC

I'll happily take a charity bet of €10 that if Shaw leaves, it won't be to any of the other "Top 6" teams. (City, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool).

StringerBell

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'll happily take a charity bet of €10 that if Shaw leaves, it won't be to any of the other "Top 6" teams. (City, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool).

If it was as betting without Arsenal I'd be on that

Just the type of player Wenger would love to get his hands on

Trigger

StringerBell wrote: »

If it was as betting without Arsenal I'd be on that

Just the type of player Wenger would love to get his hands on

So then obviously you should get on that

uncleoswald

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'll happily take a charity bet of €10 that if Shaw leaves, it won't be to any of the other "Top 6" teams. (City, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool).

But it would be very funny if Pep took him and turned him into a world beater.

beno619

GSPfan wrote: »

Jose defo doesn’t rate him. I think it’s more personal with Shaw though as I think he likes Pogba and Martial and puts up with them but I think he doesn’t want Shaw around anymore.

Jose seems to be trying to force something by treating him the way he is. Maybe Shaw isn’t willing to leave and Jose needs the finances he would free up. Maybe he just hates his face and doesn’t want to look at it anymore.

Martial was notibly dropped last season and Pogba' this season so I don't see this favouritism.

TheDoc

pjohnson wrote: »

Is Pochettino leaving Spurs or something? If Shaw can't hack Jose then how can he handle Poch?
"‘I felt his head was not in the right place [at Southampton] to make the sacrifices and decisions that are necessary at that age,’ said Pochettino in his upcoming book."

Not exactly the mollycoddling that he apparently needs. Shaw has talent but doesn't seem to give a fiddlers about putting in effort. Top clubs want this effort from players.

That's just cherry picking quotes.

There is additional material outlining that Poch treated Shaw with the arm around the shoulder style and he had massive affection for him.

Like at this stage and I don't know about anyone else, but this is clearly a fragile player mentally. It's evident from the Poch book that Shaw was suffering severe homesickness (the reference to his head not being in the right place, was that he was frequently travelling home to his family home) and there has been indication, by even the player himself, he had serious mental hurdles to overcome in his legbreak.

If Mourinho doesn't acknowledge or want to engage with individuals and acknowledging everyone is different and responds differently then that's totally fine. But he can accept the consequences that he wont be able to get the best out of people. And you don't know someones responses or "ticks" until you have them under your manager, so if you arn't adaptable every signing is a risk.

You'd think in 2018 it doesn't need explaining. Especially when a manager historically at the club, dealing with a different generation of player that was deemed "tougher" was still able to recognise players being managed and treated as individuals. These are human beings you now, actual people. Here is a very young player who has suffered massive injury problems, broke his leg, has carried the burden of being the most expensive teenager at the time, deals with being called fat frequently, had two managers call him out on his weight, and has now dealt with people questioning his proffesionalism for some time. All without, to be fair, anything other than a manager saying so.

And its pretty obvious at this stage, as it has been for some time, Shaw is the scapegoat for Jose, as he obviously isn't a confrontational individual. Have to say the Jose and Shaw dynamic is one of the key reasons I feel Jose is a prick, to be blunt.

StringerBell

StringerBell wrote: »

If it was as betting without Arsenal I'd be on that

Just the type of player Wenger would love to get his hands on

ha i was going to post the exact same thing

uncleoswald

uncleoswald wrote: »

But it would be very funny if Pep took him and turned him into a world beater.

Just like he did with debruyne ageuro and silva what a coach tbf

So is Jose getting critque for playing mind games with shaw over praising him then criticising him and also for not trying different things to motivate him?

GSPfan

beno619 wrote: »

Martial was notibly dropped last season and Pogba' this season so I don't see this favouritism.

Give over. Neither of them have been singled out for individual criticism to the level Shaw has. Shaw is being insulted on a personal level the likes I’ve not seen before from a United manager. You can argue Pogba and Martial don’t warrant that kind of criticism but both are guilty of the things Jose accuses Shaw of but don’t have to deal with the insults.

IMO.

jayo26

Don't know if you realise it but lads some of your posts are outrageous if ye had any kind of voice at all ye would be done for slander on both sides.

Talking about bullying and mental illness and what not ye haven't a clue what's going on but comparing a 22 year old man getting paid 100k a week to play football and getting pulled off and called up on a bad performances is far from bullying in the work places. You try tell that to someone that can't afford to pay a mortgage if they walk away from a bullying boss or someone thats been sexually harassed by a boss but they have a family depending on their job.

He is a grown man that's a millionaire that looks at the best of times overweight and not in condition if Jose wants to explain to the press why he hooked him at half time he has every bloody right to do it if Shaw can't react in the right way to that well frankly he is not worth 100k a week.

A lot of ye talk a crazy amount of bulsh1t to get one over on another poster.

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure DeBruyne and Salah look like big mistakes being let go by Jose but it was a long time ago in a football sense and what manager doesn't have blots on their book in that regard. Who knows maybe it has the added motivation they needed to work harder to become top level maybe they were always going to become world class. No one talks about all the ones he let go that have fallen away.


If Jose left in the summer after a simialr amount of time in charge as LVG you could easily say which one has left a better squad of players behind for the next manager who comes in and a better platform to push on from.

Jose fixes the leaks in squads where talent is needed and maybe (no one really knows) he isn't the best to motivate all players correctly (who is?) he will get in someone of good quality to do the job instead.

One more summer spend and we will have very few areas in the first team we need quality in.

Jose has added Pogba, Matic, Bailly and Lukaku that have been a success and would be inherited by a new manager this summer, if sacked in the same time frame as Van Gaal. Sanchez I'm sure will hopefully make that list.

Pogba I wouldn't even count considering it was in the works while Van Gaal was manager. I've often wondered if its part of the problem, Mourinho didn't sanction the signing so isn't invested into him as he is the likes of Lukaku or Matic.

I don't think he has left the squad immeasurably better if I'm honest. He inherited a strong defence and a broken attack and nearly two seasons later we have a strong defence and a broken attack.

He was left incredible potential he hasn't really harnessed, and he is not really leaving any potential behind him if he left this summer. It's the same players, most of them now having questions about their suitability.

What where the holes in the squad by the way Jose inherited? And where has he plugged them?

He took over one of the best defences and defensive record teams in the league. He's still using Valencia that Van Gaal moved there. He's using Ashley Young that Van Gaal moved there. He doesn't trust or rate Shaw, who was playing well under Van Gaal when fit. He's improved Rojo (mostly injured under Van Gaal), banished Blind (was actually doing for a season what everyone raved about John Stones "maybe" doing) had Smalling looking class and Jones was injured.

Our midfield on paper looks better, but he's not getting it working correctly. And in most cases he sees that as an area of the pitch he wants to avoid any meaningful play happening in.

Our attack is as broken and messy as Van Gaal.

The only area where Mourinho absolutely nailed was diminishing Rooney immediately and bringing in Zlatan, and then Lukaku.

There is an interesting thought. Van Gaal's first or second season team, all firing, against Mourinho's first or second season team.

Both have had incredible players available and neither have been able to fully capitalise or have the squad operating consistenly

TheDoc

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'll happily take a charity bet of €10 that if Shaw leaves, it won't be to any of the other "Top 6" teams. (City, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool).

I'll take a €10 he ends up at Spurs or Arsenal

I'm not 100% sure he's leaving this summer though.

TheDoc

StringerBell wrote: »

This hysterical reaction is simply that, hysterical.

He has not humiliated him, nor picked on him. He doesn't get individual dressing downs, Mourinho is answering questions. These things don't happen in a vacuum. Asked question, gives answer. Media and others pick out certain lines and use them as a stick to beat the manager.

Its tired, its transparent and when you get the likes of this post i.e Shaw being "humiliated" when obviously he has not been humiliated or singled out even (there were plenty of players criticised) its simple hysteria.

Oh, and the notion that Fergie would always be able to get the best out of players whatever the situation called for is just that, a notion. Particularly the ones not up to it at top level.

AND this is before you even get into the realm of comparing probably the greatest ever man manager of all time to anybody else being foolish.

This is an extremely incorrect interpretation of the situation imo, extremely incorrect.

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

So is Jose getting critque for playing mind games with shaw over praising him then criticising him and also for not trying different things to motivate him?

Well yeah, considering the confusion it causes for fans, imagine what it's doing to the player.

And if it's an attempt at motivation, it's pretty rubbish to be fair.

TheDoc

jayo26 wrote: »

Don't know if you realise it but lads some of your posts are outrageous if ye had any kind of voice at all ye would be done for slander on both sides.

Talking about bullying and mental illness and what not ye haven't a clue what's going on but comparing a 22 year old man getting paid 100k a week to play football and getting pulled off and called up on a bad performances is far from bullying in the work places.

He is a grown man that's a millionaire that looks at the best of times overweight and not in condition if Jose wants to explain to the press why he hooked him at half time he has every bloody right to do it if Shaw can't react in the right way to that well frankly he is not worth 100k a week.

A lot of ye talk a crazy amount of bulsh1t to get one over on another poster.

This would be all cool if it was evident that earning X amount of money meant you no longer were exposed to Y emotion or feeling.

He can of course do what he likes with the team, but it won't reserve him from criticism. Especially when his excuse is basically bollox, his replacement does nothing noticeably different or better and that it is becoming obvious the player in question (Shaw) is being used as either a scapegoat or example for the others.

You try tell that to someone that can't afford to pay a mortgage if they walk away from a bullying boss or someone thats been sexually harassed by a boss but they have a family depending on their job.

Well thankfully for the majority of us we work in environments where that is rightly deemed no longer acceptable and there is plenty of avenues for it to be addressed.

Obviously sport is different, and I think bullying is a strong word to use in this case with Mourinho and Shaw, but it's borderline getting there, if it hasn't already. We don't acknowledge it because of a predisposed belief that football is different and managers are the all encompassing authority and can treat these "assets" as they see fit.

But lets go down the "but he earns millions" route, because it is a bit silly imo.

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

Don't know if you realise it but lads some of your posts are outrageous if ye had any kind of voice at all ye would be done for slander on both sides.

Talking about bullying and mental illness and what not ye haven't a clue what's going on but comparing a 22 year old man getting paid 100k a week to play football and getting pulled off and called up on a bad performances is far from bullying in the work places. You try tell that to someone that can't afford to pay a mortgage if they walk away from a bullying boss or someone thats been sexually harassed by a boss but they have a family depending on their job.

He is a grown man that's a millionaire that looks at the best of times overweight and not in condition if Jose wants to explain to the press why he hooked him at half time he has every bloody right to do it if Shaw can't react in the right way to that well frankly he is not worth 100k a week.

A lot of ye talk a crazy amount of bulsh1t to get one over on another poster.

Feels like you’re saying a one legged man should count himself lucky as there are people out there with no legs. Interesting.

Trigger

TheDoc wrote: »

Pogba I wouldn't even count considering it was in the works while Van Gaal was manager. I've often wondered if its part of the problem, Mourinho didn't sanction the signing so isn't invested into him as he is the likes of Lukaku or Matic.

Sorry but I stopped reading here, I’ll get back to it I promise...

Now the bolder part, that’s a pretty big suggestion you are making there, you actually think that Jose would come into a team, that signed a player, without his authority, basically what Roman does at Chelsea? I have no doubt in my mind that Jose sanctioned it. I know it was probably in the works but Jose was sounded out as manager way before Van Gaal was sacked. Of course Ed would have signed off on that with him. Why would he sign a player that the new manager didn’t want before he even took charge officially. Can you back that up? I mean in written form now, no podcast **** as I can’t hear that stuff

pjohnson

jayo26 wrote: »

Don't know if you realise it but lads some of your posts are outrageous if ye had any kind of voice at all ye would be done for slander on both sides.

Talking about bullying and mental illness and what not ye haven't a clue what's going on but comparing a 22 year old man getting paid 100k a week to play football and getting pulled off and called up on a bad performances is far from bullying in the work places. You try tell that to someone that can't afford to pay a mortgage if they walk away from a bullying boss or someone thats been sexually harassed by a boss but they have a family depending on their job.

He is a grown man that's a millionaire that looks at the best of times overweight and not in condition if Jose wants to explain to the press why he hooked him at half time he has every bloody right to do it if Shaw can't react in the right way to that well frankly he is not worth 100k a week.

A lot of ye talk a crazy amount of bulsh1t to get one over on another poster.

And the international break is far from over. Things will only get crazier.

TheDoc

astradave wrote: »

Sorry but I stopped reading here, I’ll get back to it I promise...

Now the bolder part, that’s a pretty big suggestion you are making there, you actually think that Jose would come into a team, that signed a player, without his authority, basically what Roman does at Chelsea? I have no doubt in my mind that Jose sanctioned it. I know it was probably in the works but Jose was sounded out as manager way before Van Gaal was sacked. Of course Ed would have signed off on that with him. Why would he sign a player that the new manager didn’t want before he even took charge officially. Can you back that up? I mean in written form now, no podcast **** as I can’t hear that stuff

Sorry I could have worded that better.

Of course he sanctioned it. But it seems to be the deal was already being arranged whilst Van Gaal was manager. So something along the lines of "we've been working on this, it can happen, are you happy to move ahead".So sorry that is my bad wording, what I should have said was maybe he didn't set off marking Pogba as a target to sign. As in he didn't initiate it.

At the same time, who knows, maybe he did from his couch while he was unemployed and in touch with United. But I believe the understanding is that Van Gaal and Woodward kicked it off, with Van Gaal highlighting he needed creativity in midfield. No ?

It's just played a bit on my mind with the way Mourinho underplays Pogba at times, and even recently when he name checked the players a new manager will inherit, not mentioning Pogba.

EDIT :

United have been tracking Pogba since Woodward was appointed chief in 2013 – but stepped up the deal in June after LVG had gone.

I always had the impression from stories (up to yourself who you take as reliable etc but it did the rounds) that Woodward was sweating for a marquee name and Pogba was in the pipeline ages. Some stories indicated Van Gaal didn't want him, other say he did. That end of things is confusing.

Also to correct myself, stories indicated it was all Woodward.

pjohnson

I am also somewhat amused people blaming Jose for his "bullying/scapegoating" of Shaw haven't actually claimed Shaw was playing better than a converted winger a decade older than him. But merely say he has "done nothing wrong". The fact a 22 year old natural full back simply can't get into the team at full back and be a noticeable upgrade on a 32 year old left winger says a lot.

Shaw hasn't provided a goal or assist in 16 games this year. Young has provided 2 goals and 5 assists in 29 games. While I liked Shaw during his run in the side he never did show that he was actually better than Young. Sure no major negatives during his appearances but no major positives either.

Drumpot

TheDoc wrote: »

Sorry I could have worded that better.

Of course he sanctioned it. But it seems to be the deal was already being arranged whilst Van Gaal was manager. So something along the lines of "we've been working on this, it can happen, are you happy to move ahead"

So sorry that is my bad wording, what I should have said was maybe he didn't set off marking Pogba as a target to sign.

At the same time, who knows, maybe he did from his couch while he was unemployed and in touch with United. But I believe the understanding is that Van Gaal and Woodward kicked it off, with Van Gaal highlighting he needed creativity in midfield. No ?

I have said this before that it’s clear some of the signings were given to the managers since Gill left. Shaw and Herrera were Long term targets long before LVG signed.

Pogba doesn’t look like an obvious Jose player but what manager In the world would turn down the chance to work with one of the worlds finest looking youngsters? I do think some signings haven’t been primarily about first team requirements.

StringerBell

TheDoc wrote: »

This is an extremely incorrect interpretation of the situation imo, extremely incorrect.

Well as you have an opposing views to me isn't very surprising you find mine extremely incorrect?

Drumpot

pjohnson wrote: »

I am also somewhat amused people blaming Jose for his "bullying/scapegoating" of Shaw haven't actually claimed Shaw was playing better than a converted winger a decade older than him. But merely say he has "done nothing wrong". The fact a 22 year old natural full back simply can't get into the team at full back and be a noticeable upgrade on a 32 year old left winger says a lot.

Shaw hasn't provided a goal or assist in 16 games this year. Young has provided 2 goals and 5 assists in 29 games. While I liked Shaw during his run in the side he never did show that he was actually better than Young. Sure no major negatives during his appearances but no major positives either.

The ridiculous over reaction of media to Shaw is laughable. A manager dropping a player, giving them a public dust down or taking them off during a game is bullying?

Then we have multiple sources (Young being most recent http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43478838 ) saying that Shaw’s
Application isn’t the best. Seems like Jose is doing Shaw a favor and trying to give him every possible chance to reach his potential! Trying every trick in yeh book to get Shaw to fullfill the obvious potential he has!

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Well yeah, considering the confusion it causes for fans, imagine what it's doing to the player.

And if it's an attempt at motivation, it's pretty rubbish to be fair.

But which is it, is he not trying different things or is he trying too many. TBH we have no idea whats being said or tried with the player but you can criticise Jose for both.

I'd imagine Jose has been pretty straight with shaw in regards what he expects and he isn't getting

My point re the squad was the level of player ability at the club and not how they are currently performing. TBF I wasn't really clear on that but I think Jose will leave behind a much more talented squad then when he took over, ability wise. You said you hope he doesn't jettison too much potentially out.

The one thing he can't be questioned on is his ability to build good teams squads, both times after he left Chelsea they went on to win the big prizes soon after. LVG left the team weak in many areas many of which Jose has fixed and in the summer I think he will continue to do this

GSPfan

Has anyone seen the film Whiplash? I feel like it’s on topic to ask

LeeJM

Saying Pogba isn't a signing that Jose "signed off" on is laughable. To believe that you would need to ignore the fact that from about February 2015 on Jose was regularly attending matches and scouting players for his next job and that it was fairly obvious his next job was going to be Utd.

You can find all the excuses in the world for the players and as many reasons as you want to blame Jose, it doesn't mean you are right. It's very simple since Jose has arrived at the club we have won a League Cup, a Europa League and we are on course for best PL finish in 5 years as well as being in the FA Cup semi finals. That is clear progress and tbh I couldn't care who he offends, who he upsets, which players aren't happy as for the past 4 years under 3 different managers the bulk of this squad has failed to live up to its potential. In Jose we have IMO the perfect manager to clear out those who are weak minded and bring in winners. Some may not like it and don't want to hear it but the board I'd imagine are very happy with Jose (as judged by his recent contract extension) and he won't be going anywhere any time soon.

Drumpot

GSPfan wrote: »

Has anyone seen the film Whiplash? I feel like it’s on topic to ask

And it all worked out for the drummer....

jayo26

TheDoc wrote: »

But lets go down the "but he earns millions" route, because it is a bit silly imo.

Again I'm not saying because he earns millions it's ok I'm saying that because he earns millions a higher standard can be expected of him.

Jose is not going all out to make his life a misery he is trying to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world and currently is having a massive problem with attitude in players he has pulled up many players on it and he has blamed others but it's Shaw that is the focus with the press because jose has criticised him again maybe its because he is constantly having problems with him!

GSPfan

@jayo26

He is not just criticising him though, he is publicly insulting him repeatedly so I think it warrants discussion. The bullying and mental health stuff are very harsh broad terms so we should just avoid them.

adox

GSPfan wrote: »

Has anyone seen the film Whiplash? I feel like it’s on topic to ask

Great film tbf.

pjohnson

GSPfan wrote: »

@jayo26

He is not just criticising him though, he is publicly insulting him repeatedly so I think it warrants discussion. The bullying and mental health stuff are very harsh broad terms so we should just avoid them.

Was Ferguson held to this standard during his run ins with Rooney?

jayo26

GSPfan wrote: »

@jayo26

He is not just criticising him though, he is publicly insulting him repeatedly so I think it warrants discussion. The bullying and mental health stuff are very harsh broad terms so we should just avoid them.

How did he insult him? Because he said he has less defensive awareness then Valencia?

How come it's ok for pundits and football writers to say even worse about players but the minute Jose does it it's bullying and insulting?

Jose has a style and I agree it is over the top and more so the past few weeks but thats his style but to say he is going out if his way to bully someone and I suit them is not write.

As I said before Jose will live or die by his decisions if he gets it wrong he will be sacked but don't accuse the man of something that's far from the truth.

adox

My tuppence worth. The comments after the game were nothing. Don’t even warrant discussion. He was asked why he took him off and explained why. Said it could have been either fullback but Valencia did slightly better defensively so left him on.

Gave out about the team as a whole, bar one or two and spoke about them collectively. So zero problem with him talking about Shaw on his own there as he was asked specifically about him and didn’t say anything out of the ordinary(from what I remember)

Now his comments earlier in the season about having to think for Shaw and more or less talk him through the game? There’s plenty of merit to discussing that.

Liam McPoyle

GSPfan wrote: »

Has anyone seen the film Whiplash? I feel like it’s on topic to ask

pjohnson

Vaguely remembered Whiplash. Miles Teller, J.K. Simmons & Mellissa Benoist all together.

StringerBell

GSPfan wrote: »

@jayo26

He is not just criticising him though, he is publicly insulting him repeatedly so I think it warrants discussion. The bullying and mental health stuff are very harsh broad terms so we should just avoid them.

List out some of the repeated public insults so we can discuss them.

Not the comments regarding match performance like the cup game when he was explicitly asked why he substituted him, which is obviously very different to repeated public insults..

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

How did he insult him? Because he said he has less defensive awareness then Valencia?

How come it's ok for pundits and football writers to say even worse about players but the minute Jose does it it's bullying and insulting?

Jose has a style and I agree it is over the top and more so the past few weeks but thats his style but to say he is going out if his way to bully someone and I suit them is not write.

As I said before Jose will live or die by his decisions if he gets it wrong he will be sacked but don't accuse the man of something that's far from the truth.

I’m not claiming bullying so not answering that or that pundit stuff as that is classic Whataboutism.

He has insulted Shaw previously by saying it was his brain doing all the thinking. He insulted him last week by saying Shaw was acting like “Please Mr., take me from the pitch”

So there’s two very personal insults which answer your question precisely.

GSPfan

StringerBell wrote: »

List out some of the repeated public insults so we can discuss them.

Not the comments regarding match performance like the cup game when he was explicitly asked why he substituted him, which is obviously very different to repeated public insults..

See above.

GSPfan

pjohnson wrote: »

Was Ferguson held to this standard during his run ins with Rooney?

Whataboutism.