Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

brinty

threein99 wrote: »

• We pretty much always beat them at Old Trafford.
• They had a second string team out. (Which we laboured to beat)
• They haven't won a solitary point away from home in the league in 2018The worst record in the top five leagues in Europe.

FYP

threein99

jayo26 wrote: »

The list if excuse continues every time this team wins is amazing I've never seen the likes of it before and is the total opposite to other threads..

United can win trophies but they are the easiest years to win a trophy because all the teams are crap but other teams are called the greatest and in a better direction then us for just getting through rounds before they do anything of note.

I was replying to someone who said beating a long time rival was a great result, I was just highlighting the game was essentially meaningless for them, hence the team selection, and they are a dreadful team away from home.

threein99

astradave wrote: »

Seen a stay pop up on Sky Sports during the match yesterday, absolutely unbelievable stat

United have led at half-time in 268 Premier League games at Old Trafford. They’ve won 253, drawn 15 and lost none.

Can you name the 15 draws ? no googling

Chelsea 1-1 in the 06/07 season
Chelsea 3-3, the game where Flo equalised, not sure of the year

Cantona's Collars

Liverpool fans salty that Castles ("Jose's mouthpiece") got an exclusive on Klopps assistant falling out with him.
How long before they blame Jose?

Lord TSC

Reporter: "Pep said winning the PL > UCL. Which is more important to you?"
Jose: "I think we say the most important one is the one we win. When I win the UCL, it's more important. When I win the league, it's more important. When I win nothing...winning isn't important."

Jose roasting Poch with that one :P

Kerrydude1981

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Quote: From the Liverpool thread.

"Duncan Castles with an exclusive story about the manager of one of United's rivals having issues? Ticks all the bullshít boxes."

Maybe it's Jose's fault that Klopp fell out with his assistant manager.

Never knew Klopp fell out out with Mickey Flanagan

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

The list if excuse continues every time this team wins is amazing I've never seen the likes of it before and is the total opposite to other threads..

United can win trophies but they are the easiest years to win a trophy because all the teams are crap but other teams are called the greatest and in a better direction then us for just getting through rounds before they do anything of note.

Do you not think it is useful and practical to look at the actual performances rather than just the results though?

Personally I feel United have generally done very well in getting results this season, but I find our performances consistently worrying.

Arsenal victory (earlier in the season). They absolutely battered us in terms of possession and chance creation all match and if that game had ended 5 or 6 to 3 against us it would not have been surprising based on the balance of play itself.

Yes, having DDG in goals affords us some grace, but how can any argue that relying on him to be world class to stop us conceding 5 goals is a viable long term tactic.

The performances in terms of tempo, workrate, decision making, execution vs Arsenal yesterday was similar to our performance vs West Brom. We lost vs West Brom and pulled it out of the bag vs Arsenal - an weakened Arsenal side that we still laboured to victory over.

Similar performances vs Southampton and Hudderfield cost us dearly as well.

That type of performance has cost us many points this season, points that have cost us a proper tilt at the title. That type of performance cost us against a poor Seville side in the CL. Performances that if we see a continuation of next season will have us well off the title again.

While I can more understand fans only really be concerned with position and points, if United staff aren't analysing and trying to rectify why we are having such consistency problems this season, why we are having such difficulty in the final 3rd, then we are well and truly f***ed. If you would agree that it needs to be looked at and addressed then essentially you agree there are big issues despite being in second. If you disagree, then I would love to know your reasoning and why you feel everything is basically rosey despite multiple poor performances which have cost us in the league, the league Cup and the CL, as well as sometimes still getting us 3 points.

Cantona's Collars

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Never knew Klopp fell out out with Mickey Flanagan

Maybe he went "out, out".

You gotta know your Micky Flanagan gags to get that one.;)

jayo26

Mitch Connor wrote: »

wont qoute it all

In my opinion yes performances have been poor but the way I see it is the team have been playing at 75 percent for the past few months in alot of games that is a problem but it can be fixed easily.

Jose has won consistently he knows how to won and he continues to do so. If United can get second in the table and if they can still pick up a trophy while the team have there eye off the ball in the league well when we do get firing what can we achieve.

yabadabado

jayo26 wrote: »

In my opinion yes performances have been poor but the way I see it is the team have been playing at 75 percent for the past few months in alot of games that is a problem but it can be fixed easily.

Jose has won consistently he knows how to won and he continues to do so. If United can get second in the table and if they can still pick up a trophy while the team have there eye off the ball in the league well when we do get firing what can we achieve.

But is it that simple? Got to ask why are United only at 75%.

Can Jose get the extra mile out of them, are the players arsed or not good enough?

There has been a big improvement this season but its been a hard watch by times and there is a lack of consistency and cutting edge in an awful lot of games.

jayo26

yabadabado wrote: »

But is it that simple? Got to ask why are United only at 75%.

Can Jose get the extra mile out of them, are the players arsed or not good enough?

There has been a big improvement this season but its been a hard watch by times and there is a lack of consistency and cutting edge in an awful lot of games.

People said we would struggle against the top teams... the top teams proved to me in the past two months that most of our problems are that the league has been over since December and the players don't bother turning up again at the bottom teams that's my view on it.

The exception is against Seville on the champs league that really sickens me still but I believe we turned up there thinking we had it won.

It should be that simple Jose will know.thisnin advance of summer he will know who he can get to raise their game and who he can motivate

Lord TSC

Lord TSC wrote: »

Reporter: "Pep said winning the PL > UCL. Which is more important to you?"
Jose: "I think we say the most important one is the one we win. When I win the UCL, it's more important. When I win the league, it's more important. When I win nothing...winning isn't important."

Jose roasting Poch with that one :P

Jose may be forced to apologize for hurting his feelings like poor Harry

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

In my opinion yes performances have been poor but the way I see it is the team have been playing at 75 percent for the past few months in alot of games that is a problem but it can be fixed easily.

But we could say the same for much of last season.

If it was as easy a fix as you are saying, then why is it such a blatant problem nearing the end of Jose's second season?

Its the 'easy fix' that is the problem - Jose doesn't seem to be able to get a handle on it at all, and it is a problem he himself has brought up.

Can't remember which game it was, but it was after another poor game and Jose said the team had trained really well, had worked on the tactics and tempo required and then we went out and played rubbish and drew/lost. (can't remember which game(s).)

I would also point at the fact our attacking patterns and movement don't appear to have improved or changed.

The problems we were talking about 12 months ago are, to a large extent, the same problems we are talking about right now. IMO, that points to a problem that United/Jose are not finding easy to fix.

PhlegmyMoses

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But we could say the same for much of last season.

If it was as easy a fix as you are saying, then why is it such a blatant problem nearing the end of Jose's second season?

Its the 'easy fix' that is the problem - Jose doesn't seem to be able to get a handle on it at all, and it is a problem he himself has brought up.

Can't remember which game it was, but it was after another poor game and Jose said the team had trained really well, had worked on the tactics and tempo required and then we went out and played rubbish and drew/lost. (can't remember which game(s).)

I would also point at the fact our attacking patterns and movement don't appear to have improved or changed.

The problems we were talking about 12 months ago are, to a large extent, the same problems we are talking about right now. IMO, that points to a problem that United/Jose are not finding easy to fix.

I'm of the belief that were a few players short still. Look at Pep last year, couldn't get it going despite spending a fortune in the first transfer window, spends even more in the second on players that suit his style, boom has them playing how he wants. Recent seasons in the PL show us that it can really happen that quickly.

The first thing I'd be improving is our defence across the board. I think half our problem is that we have no platform to build off because they are so poor on the ball. From fullback to centre back.

Mitch Connor

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm of the belief that were a few players short still. Look at Pep last year, couldn't get it going despite spending a fortune in the first transfer window, spends even more in the second on players that suit his style, boom has them playing how he wants. Recent seasons in the PL show us that it can really happen that quickly.

The first thing I'd be improving is our defence across the board. I think half our problem is that we have no platform to build off because they are so poor on the ball. From fullback to centre back.

Yeah - I can see fullbacks changing a lot of our attack, or at least having the possibility to do so.

having left and right backs that can and will stretch the oppositon on the outside rather than add further congestion to the central areas could be a huge boon.

The conservative nature we have generally seen in midfield could be alleviated somewhat if Jose feels he can trust the defenders more to not be caught out - so that he doesn't need to protect them as much.

Movement and linking of the midfield could be improved by having a centre back that can bring the ball forward and commit a midfielder before finding the pass to a player in space.

There are issues that it is possible for new signings to address. But at the same time the question will remain as to whether any new signings will change the approach or continue the approach.

We could end up spending a fortune on new players that are told to play in the same way as the current players. Rather than Jose not trusting the current players to execute the plan he wants, it could simply be he feels they aren't executing his current plan well enough and that Jose feels it is execution rather than approach that is the problem.

Jose clearly isn't going to be sacked, so we have to hope that new signings result in better players in the first 11 and a better approach and execution which results in better performances and more points.

So its not ok to call Gerrard,Slippy then? kin ell

A serious photo of the match-winner...

jayo26

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But we could say the same for much of last season.

If it was as easy a fix as you are saying, then why is it such a blatant problem nearing the end of Jose's second season?

Its the 'easy fix' that is the problem - Jose doesn't seem to be able to get a handle on it at all, and it is a problem he himself has brought up.

Can't remember which game it was, but it was after another poor game and Jose said the team had trained really well, had worked on the tactics and tempo required and then we went out and played rubbish and drew/lost. (can't remember which game(s).)

I would also point at the fact our attacking patterns and movement don't appear to have improved or changed.

The problems we were talking about 12 months ago are, to a large extent, the same problems we are talking about right now. IMO, that points to a problem that United/Jose are not finding easy to fix.

United of last season was totally different problems then united of this year.

Last year we struggled to break teams down that sat back but the effort was always there the players always ran they only stopped when we took our focus off the league and went for the Europa league.

This year and especially since mid December alot of the players haven't been turning up in games it is really slow tempo slow running and no focus or desire to get into the box it looks totally different.

Pogba is the easiest example again look at him against arsenal he gets into the box and team goes ahead then you see him reverting back to slow tempo runs and the when we equalize the entire team lifts up again and we create chances again.

threein99

jayo26 wrote: »

United of last season was totally different problems then united of this year.

Last year we struggled to break teams down that sat back but the effort was always there the players always ran they only stopped when we took our focus off the league and went for the Europa league.

This year and especially since mid December alot of the players haven't been turning up in games it is really slow tempo slow running and no focus or desire to get into the box it looks totally different.

Pogba is the easiest example again look at him against arsenal he gets into the box and team goes ahead then you see him reverting back to slow tempo runs and the when we equalize the entire team lifts up again and we create chances again.

To me the tempo has to be set in training by the manager/coaches.

yabadabado

jayo26 wrote: »

This year and especially since mid December alot of the players haven't been turning up in games it is really slow tempo slow running and no focus or desire to get into the box it looks totally different.

To me that's a problem . If players aren't able to turn up for games then they shouldn't be at the club. I know there will be ups and downs and not everyone can be switched on 100% of the time but I'd be concerned about that attitude in the squad.

Can Jose not motivate them or do they not have it in them?

United lack leaders on the pitch, no one is really vocal or cajoling with each other.

jayo26

threein99 wrote: »

To me the tempo has to be set in training by the manager/coaches.

Do you think Jose is setting his team up to score a goal and go slow tempo?

Do you think Jose telling pogba to burst his guy to get into the box until we score a goal then start to slow your pace and not run a such?

Against Liverpool in second half the team were sitting deep and Jose could be seen on sidelines screaming at them to push up the pitch people were saying 9h he is telling them to park the bus.

Against Swansea a game I was at myself the team were excellent first half then they took foot off the pedal in second half players started to play the ball sideways Jose was screaming at them and then lindleof surged into opposition half with the ball and Jose was praising him for it on the sidelines.

There are loads of examples throughout the last few months of players not playing at full capacity and I'm sure Jose is not telling to take it easy.

jayo26

yabadabado wrote: »

To me that's a problem . If players aren't able to turn up for games then they shouldn't be at the club. I know there will be ups and downs and not everyone can be switched on 100% of the time but I'd be concerned about that attitude in the squad.

Can Jose not motivate them or do they not have it in them?

United lack leaders on the pitch, no one is really vocal or cajoling with each other.

100 percent agree with you about leaders it's a massive problem I said it after the Swansea game we don't have enough players that are willing to drag the team we tea and lukaku are trying and bailly does too but we need a leader in midfield.

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

Do you think Jose is setting his team up to score a goal and go slow tempo?

Do you think Jose telling pogba to burst his guy to get into the box until we score a goal then start to slow your pace and not run a such?

Against Liverpool in second half the team were sitting deep and Jose could be seen on sidelines screaming at them to push up the pitch people were saying 9h he is telling them to park the bus.

Against Swansea a game I was at myself the team were excellent first half then they took foot off the pedal in second half players started to play the ball sideways Jose was screaming at them and then lindleof surged into opposition half with the ball and Jose was praising him for it on the sidelines.

There are loads of examples throughout the last few months of players not playing at full capacity and I'm sure Jose is not telling to take it easy.

OK...

So what is the 'easy fix' for this. We agree it is an ongoing issue, if it is so easily fixed then why has Jose not fixed it?

jayo26

Mitch Connor wrote: »

OK...

So what is the 'easy fix' for this. We agree it is an ongoing issue, if it is so easily fixed then why has Jose not fixed it?

It's an on going this the past 3 months I believe we need a leader in midfield a senior player that will not allow the team slack off and we need to sorry out the players that are slacking and they are either in or out.

We also need to make sure that we are not out of the league by December next year.

What's your opinion what do you think is the fix?

TheDoc

Only getting to the thread now. Pretty much everything covered from the pages I've read.

Intensity was shocking, team was pretty poor again and it felt like some testimonial match. Should have blown Arsenal away. Can't keep playing like this. Why isn't it improving. Mourinho talks before Brighton about coaching to move the ball faster, and it's become slower. Team is getting into breaking positions and not even breaking. I don't understand what is happening. Think also should it continue, we need to talk about Rashford. I'll take the hit on that should it come to pass, people probably not wanting to take pops at a young local lad. Thought Martial should be coming on when Lukaku went off. I'm just very uneasy about the summer, whatever we sign, losing Martial is going to hurt. Sanchez was muck again for me. Absolutely dreadful. And he's causing a MASSIVE problem when paired with Lingard, both drifting infield congesting the areas for Lukaku and Pogba, whilst we have blunt fullbacks.

Valencia for all is attributes has still not learned how to cross a ball and its criminal. Ashley Young profiting from his usual stick of having one good game and somehow living of it, he's been utterly pointless in attacks unable to string anything together from the space he gets. Our current setup vacates acres of space for our fullbacks, who are unable to do anything constructive. And by congesting the middle, we are making it easy for teams. If we are going 4-3-3, we need our two RW/LW players starting from wide. It's not rocket science.

There was some positives too. Mourinho has put his top 6 record issue to bed by turning it around, the team has been more adventurous in these games which is good. Lindelof looks better and better the more I see him, and is making a mockery of Smalling in defence on the ball. Team is now showing a trend of winning games from losing or drawing positions and its a type of character and resilience. Need to keep building on that. Need to have that vigor and fight for the games like Friday, when the opposition "looks" a walkover.

There is still a fundamental part of this teams dynamics that is broken, that I'm hoping gets addressed over the summer in pre-season. At the same time, WC interuptions, won't be much coaching time. But if we are to move forward with 4-3-3, team needs to be coached in it.

Rossi IRL

Antonio Valencia, where attacks have gone to die since 2013

Need to either give TFM a good shot at right back next season or else go sign some quality there.

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

It's an on going this the past 3 months I believe we need a leader in midfield a senior player that will not allow the team slack off and we need to sorry out the players that are slacking and they are either in or out.

We also need to make sure that we are not out of the league by December next year.

What's your opinion what do you think is the fix?

I think the tempo and intensity of the side is poor and they have a weak mentality.

Partly the fix will be better players, but Jose needs to get better out of the players as well. We need to be set up better and play on the front foot with intensity and focus.

Signing the right type and quality of player will not be easy. Coaching them to get the best out of them will not be easy.

I don't think it is an easy fix, because if it was then it would have been fixed. Jose has had 3 windows to resolve problems and I don't a massive shift towards solving them.

I personally think the issues with our approach, style, tempo, mentality are very similar to the issues we were discussing going into last summer - and the discussion is the same this summer.

We lack leaders, we lack intensity, we lack focus, we lack full backsl

TheDoc

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Antonio Valencia, where attacks have gone to die since 2013

Need to either give TFM a good shot at right back next season or else go sign some quality there.

Think I saw adox comment on it during the game, or someone, but I instantly nodded my head.

There is nothing more initially promising, then immediately infuriating as when Valencia gets into acres of space on the right, to then just hit an aimless ball into nowhere.

Our delivery and precision in the final third was shocking yesterday, and has been for large parts of the season. It's percentages and hit and hope, as opposed to precision and drilled repetition.

Sanchez corners like, holy mary....

yabadabado

2 full backs is a must and a cm or two also need signing.

If Lindelof could play to a high standard regularly then the ball playing CB spot is OK. If a good CB is available then buy him but not as big of issue as other areas.

RW remains a problem but can only see something happening there if some of the attacking players are sold.

jayo26

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I personally think the issues with our approach, style, tempo, mentality are very similar to the issues we were discussing going into last summer - and the discussion is the same this summer.

We lack leaders, we lack intensity, we lack focus, we lack full backsl

I believe the problem is totally different. Last season the team had no direction in attack we could not break down teams that could defend well we could not get results against the top teams.

This year going into the summer it's looking for leaders and for players to step up and do the business in games that ain't so easily motivated for.

The reason I believe it to be easily fixed is because of performances against pool, city,spurs and Chelsea of late the ability is there the desire is there when it's a game that matters that we need to win with the exception of Seville which was more of the team been too sure of themselves.

We ain't the first team to take the foot off the pedal we won't be the last the challenge will be how we start off next season and make sure same thing don't happen again.

TheDoc

The leaders debate is an interesting one. Was used a lot during the game yesterday from the pundits and commentators.

Reality is, whether they know it or not, is their type of "leader" is long since gone from the game. The last remnant was really a Lee Cattermole for Sunderland. This fiery spikey character roaring at people, setting a tone or tempo with a crunching tackle. There just isn't really the scope for that anymore consistently. You could get a ref throwing an early booking or even an early red card. And so many players don't respond to that anymore. I think it's similar with Joe Hart or Jordan Henderson who are similar described characters.

Imagine your Firminho getting balled by Jordan Henderson...."shut up you **** ****". I think for that type of captain, you need to be top of your game, in your position. I don't know, sometimes I think these older pundits or commentators or even fans think its just a case of having someone balking orders. Literally only works when they themselves, are outstanding players.

So who in our ranks is a vocal person to shout at others, to demand quality and a response. A person that is consistent in their performance to demand that from others, commands respect from their character or personality but would be received well because they are a top player.

De Gea is the obvious candidate, but he's actually a pretty quiet goalkeeper and not very vocal. Would he take on that responsibility? Can he influence the tempo and stuff from his goal? Personally I think GK's are probably the second best position to have a captain from.

Lukaku is a potential candidate. He's not afraid to have a row, or give out, or set a tone. He works hard, he is undeniable quality and no one is questioning his consistency, because they see the issues behind him. Probably too new, bit too young to be a captain, and I know for me, strikers as captains is a bit weird. But another season or two, you could have someone there.

What's left is Matic, Herrera and Pogba. I think there was a reason people talked up Herrera in that role. He is generally consistent, typically plays to a high level, sets the tempo and directs traffic in the team. Him being removed from the team by the manager this year quickly put that idea to bed. Midfield, in the centre, is where I think I always prefer having my captains. They set the tone around them, they see the game in it's most fullest and are the most influential (well questionable in a Jose team but lets not go there)

I think from existing personal, Matic or Pogba are our standout candidates, for me. And it's probably Pogba. I'd nearly give it to Pogba to mount some pressure on him in terms of "Your the leader, you set the tone, to get that respect and be taken seriously as a captain you need to be consistent" Many wouldn't be happy seeing Pogba as captain though.

I think Valencia was given it because he's a proffesional in his dedication to his craft and the game, he plays the role from example as opposed to vocal, but I just don't like my captains being social shy aways (never does interviews, never speaks, no idea what he even sounds like ) and he tends to be a pretty reserved character on the pitch in terms of speaking with his team mates more often than not.

TheDoc

I think also, to note, the manager is literally there on the sideline. The entire point of them being given a technical area, is to bark instructions onto the pitch. I totally understand the concept of having on pitch leaders and "lieutenants" but I also think its a bit of red herring. Matic was being hailed as this perfect soldier fro Jose, an embody of his requirements and thoughts and ideas on the pitch, but he has been present and culpable in plenty of our dire performances and he doesn't look the most vocal. He is also a key culprit in slowing our play down, and his insistence on dropping into our backline to take a 3 yard pass, to spin it of a further 4 yards, it proper dreary viewing.

The manager conveying what he wants or thinks we need, onto the pitch, isn't really a "thing" that should be a problem in 2002, nevermind 2018....

It's why I never buy those pathetic excuses from managers after games about "oh I wanted this but the players did that" or "we worked on X during the week but players did Y". Your on the sideline, you can influence the game, it is your primary remit in your job.

yabadabado

I don't think anyone expects the old type blood and guts leader who lashes everyone out of it. The game has moved on somewhat but lead by example, up the tempo, communicate with the players etc.
United seem to have lads like DDG who is world class but rarely opens his mouth.

A CB and CM who can cajole and talk players through the game are a big sticking point in the team. They don't have to be captain just someone other will look to and say **** it IV got to up my game a bit here like X is doing.

threein99

jayo26 wrote: »

Do you think Jose is setting his team up to score a goal and go slow tempo?

Do you think Jose telling pogba to burst his guy to get into the box until we score a goal then start to slow your pace and not run a such?

Against Liverpool in second half the team were sitting deep and Jose could be seen on sidelines screaming at them to push up the pitch people were saying 9h he is telling them to park the bus.

Against Swansea a game I was at myself the team were excellent first half then they took foot off the pedal in second half players started to play the ball sideways Jose was screaming at them and then lindleof surged into opposition half with the ball and Jose was praising him for it on the sidelines.

There are loads of examples throughout the last few months of players not playing at full capacity and I'm sure Jose is not telling to take it easy.

I think that's Pogbas natural instincts taking over outside of the gameplan set by Mourinho.

Watching us this season feels like individual moments of brilliance contribute to us playing well in parts then we fall back into a shell of cautiousness.

To get the team playing at higher tempo surely needs to be preached constantly in training, look at how Pep has City playing at speed and every pass is a forward pass and pro-active, we only seem to start playing when we have to. I dont doubt Jose is screaming at them on the touchline to do it during matches but if it doesnt happen on the training pitch then its not going to happen in a match.

threein99

TheDoc wrote: »

Only getting to the thread now. Pretty much everything covered from the pages I've read.

Intensity was shocking, team was pretty poor again and it felt like some testimonial match. Should have blown Arsenal away. Can't keep playing like this. Why isn't it improving. Mourinho talks before Brighton about coaching to move the ball faster, and it's become slower. Team is getting into breaking positions and not even breaking. I don't understand what is happening. Think also should it continue, we need to talk about Rashford. I'll take the hit on that should it come to pass, people probably not wanting to take pops at a young local lad. Thought Martial should be coming on when Lukaku went off. I'm just very uneasy about the summer, whatever we sign, losing Martial is going to hurt. Sanchez was muck again for me. Absolutely dreadful. And he's causing a MASSIVE problem when paired with Lingard, both drifting infield congesting the areas for Lukaku and Pogba, whilst we have blunt fullbacks.

Valencia for all is attributes has still not learned how to cross a ball and its criminal. Ashley Young profiting from his usual stick of having one good game and somehow living of it, he's been utterly pointless in attacks unable to string anything together from the space he gets. Our current setup vacates acres of space for our fullbacks, who are unable to do anything constructive. And by congesting the middle, we are making it easy for teams. If we are going 4-3-3, we need our two RW/LW players starting from wide. It's not rocket science.

There was some positives too. Mourinho has put his top 6 record issue to bed by turning it around, the team has been more adventurous in these games which is good. Lindelof looks better and better the more I see him, and is making a mockery of Smalling in defence on the ball. Team is now showing a trend of winning games from losing or drawing positions and its a type of character and resilience. Need to keep building on that. Need to have that vigor and fight for the games like Friday, when the opposition "looks" a walkover.

There is still a fundamental part of this teams dynamics that is broken, that I'm hoping gets addressed over the summer in pre-season. At the same time, WC interuptions, won't be much coaching time. But if we are to move forward with 4-3-3, team needs to be coached in it.

That's setting the bar fairly low

TheDoc

yabadabado wrote: »

I don't think anyone expects the old type blood and guts leader who lashes everyone out of it. The game has moved on somewhat but lead by example, up the tempo, communicate with the players etc.
United seem to have lads like DDG who is world class but rarely opens his mouth.

A CB and CM who can cajole and talk players through the game are a big sticking point in the team. They don't have to be captain just someone other will look to and say **** it IV got to up my game a bit here like X is doing.

Lindelof was doing that yesterday, roaring and gesturing to Smalling to move the **** up, and take the ball with him.

Not advocating him as a captain, but think thats what we want? Players taking a bit of ownership out there and using their intuition and initiative.

There is an arguement players are becoming to ingrained into their respective managers systems or styles, there needs to always be some intuition there and in the moment decision making. At the end of the day, the players are the ones who will win or lose matches, not managers.

TheDoc

threein99 wrote: »

That's setting the bar fairly low

Indeed. But I think it's good to see.

A personal bee in my bonnet this year has been watching Pogba or Matic drop into defence to take a three yard pass, to then knock it off 4 yards further.

These are proffesional footballers, I expect my Cb to be able to hit a pass accurately into midfield, and if not, they shouldn't be at the club.

It's minimal ****, but defenders being able to do it, means our midfielders can be further up, which means our attackers are further up, which either stretches the opposition between the lines or makes them all drop off deep and concede massive territory.

It's also been part of the problem with Pogba. He has an amazing array of passing, but at times in the 4-2-3-1 he's having to start a move, then be expected to get somewhere into the opposition area or box to complete the move, or keep it going. That is a lot of ground to cover for what is effectively a deep lying midfielder/playmaker.

I hate this crap that started with Peps Barca of CB's knocking it to each other, or the defence knocking it across to each other. It's a stat circlejerk, padding passing numbers and possesion %, when I'd rather see my Cb thread a ball into my midfielder on the spin, and the whole team moving forward cohesively and put the opposition on the back foot. By the time everyone has had a little pass and a cheeky **** to pad their stats, the opposition is back in shape trying to stay awake from the boring nature of it all

threein99

TheDoc wrote: »

Indeed. But I think it's good to see.

A personal bee in my bonnet this year has been watching Pogba or Matic drop into defence to take a three yard pass, to then knock it off 4 yards further.

These are proffesional footballers, I expect my Cb to be able to hit a pass accurately into midfield, and if not, they shouldn't be at the club.

It's minimal ****, but defenders being able to do it, means our midfielders can be further up, which means our attackers are further up, which either stretches the opposition between the lines or makes them all drop off deep and concede massive territory.

It's also been part of the problem with Pogba. He has an amazing array of passing, but at times in the 4-2-3-1 he's having to start a move, then be expected to get somewhere into the opposition area or box to complete the move, or keep it going. That is a lot of ground to cover for what is effectively a deep lying midfielder/playmaker.

I hate this crap that started with Peps Barca of CB's knocking it to each other, or the defence knocking it across to each other. It's a stat circlejerk, padding passing numbers and possesion %, when I'd rather see my Cb thread a ball into my midfielder on the spin, and the whole team moving forward cohesively and put the opposition on the back foot. By the time everyone has had a little pass and a cheeky **** to pad their stats, the opposition is back in shape trying to stay awake from the boring nature of it all

Exactly, its infuriating to watch and drags everything deeper and slows us down. Goes to show how lucky we were with Rio being so good on the ball, I just took it for granted thats how centre backs play.

Lindelof has look seriously dodgy this season but he is good on the ball which is why hes been started against teams at home that we are expected to have loads of the ball, hopefully he can kick on next season but he looks a bit weak at times.

Mitch Connor

Lindelof could become a very good outlet for us, which has to be the reason he would bought, but unless he improves defensively vs physical players he simply won't start enough games for it to matter.

Currently he is just too easily beaten in the air, to easily muscled out of a positional battle. Against bournemouth he got monstered all match physically.

yabadabado

TheDoc wrote: »

Lindelof was doing that yesterday, roaring and gesturing to Smalling to move the **** up, and take the ball with him.

Not advocating him as a captain, but think thats what we want? Players taking a bit of ownership out there and using their intuition and initiative.

There is an arguement players are becoming to ingrained into their respective managers systems or styles, there needs to always be some intuition there and in the moment decision making. At the end of the day, the players are the ones who will win or lose matches, not managers.

That's exactly what we need. If you have a few of those type characters in a side it can only be a good thing. Really like that Lindelof was at it yesterday and Lukaku does it regularly. Two new player's in the squad but willing to push others around them to get going.

I've lost all hope for Smalling at this stage and Valencia isn't far behind him. Neither should be starters next season.

threein99

yabadabado wrote: »

That's exactly what we need. If you have a few of those type characters in a side it can only be a good thing. Really like that Lindelof was at it yesterday and Lukaku does it regularly. Two new player's in the squad but willing to push others around them to get going.

I've lost all hope for Smalling at this stage and Valencia isn't far behind him. Neither should be starters next season.

I'd add Young to make that list.

yabadabado

threein99 wrote: »

I'd add Young to make that list.

Young has only been stuck in there out of necessity and has done OK on occasion. The other 2 were looked at as starters for a few seasons now.

A LB is a priority and Young will be back up again, the other 2 could very easily be first choice again next season.

pjohnson

Young for all the criticism he gets is probably one of the best LB's in the league this year. I think a proper RW would be the biggest help to that side. So that we have someone else delivering balls from there, everyone goes infield so is it any wonder by simply holding his position on the right he gets soooo much room. Sure Valencia hasn't the best final ball but defensively I think he more than holds his own compared to other FB's.

I simply can't understand how midfield is overlooked and then claimed that FB is a priority. Most of the LB's we are supposedly looking at probably wouldn't displace Young anyway.

yabadabado

Who have United been linked at for LB that wouldn't displace Young?

Young has had some good games but is far from ideal.I think he often has one or 2 good games followed by a few bad games that get over looked.

For me LB and CM are the 2 biggest priorities this summer followed by RW and RB.

Cantona's Collars

Smalling had this idea that playing out from the back is striding forward 15 yards and stopping then looking for a square ball or going backwards. His other tactic is to simply hit it long and hope for the best. In this day and age the old fashioned English centre half who kicks people and drives the ball as far up the field as possible will not cut it. De Gea is a better ball player than either Jones or Smalling and he's a goalkeeper.
Take a look at the English national team, Southgate is going towards ball playing defenders instead of the traditional "lionheart" types.

TheDoc

yabadabado wrote: »

Who have United been linked at for LB that wouldn't displace Young?

Young has had some good games but is far from ideal.I think he often has one or 2 good games followed by a few bad games that get over looked.

For me LB and CM are the 2 biggest priorities this summer followed by RW and RB.

It's not even a formation thing. It's been evident under Mourinho that our fullbacks have TONS of space to operate in, when going forward.

While in some formations and use of 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 your create fullback, wide player and midfielder create a triangle around the opposition fullback, that distorts the opposing centre back, ours more frequently leaves our fullback in acres or space, or isolated 1v1 with the opposing winger.

This is a good situation we constantly create, that our fullbacks waste time and time again.

You need a left footer on that side, with good delivery but who can also somewhat interplay.

Basically a hybrid of Shaw's explosive pace, Daley Blind's delivery and Young's reliability?

On the right side, in a football manager sim world, you just go out and buy Joshua Kimmich.

TheDoc

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Smalling had this idea that playing out from the back is striding forward 15 yards and stopping then looking for a square ball or going backwards. His other tactic is to simply hit it long and hope for the best. In this day and age the old fashioned English centre half who kicks people and drives the ball as far up the field as possible will not cut it. De Gea is a better ball player than either Jones or Smalling and he's a goalkeeper.
Take a look at the English national team, Southgate is going towards ball playing defenders instead of the traditional "lionheart" types.

I'm still incredibly uncomfortable wathcing Chris Smalling receive the ball and then pass. It's BONKERS for a proffesional footballer to look that uncomfortable and unorthodox. I'm literally waiting for the ball to hit of his shin or go through his foot.

I know it doesn't happen, but it's just so uncomfortable for him the way he has his body to receive the ball, he looks like all the concentration in the world is required for him to take a touch with his instep, then its this weird kick.

Haha it's so weird. You think this stuff could be coached.

Then you look at Valencia who still can't wrap his foot around a ball to cross it properly. Where did me and bangkok go wrong

pjohnson

yabadabado wrote: »

Who have United been linked at for LB that wouldn't displace Young?

Young has had some good games but is far from ideal.I think he often has one or 2 good games followed by a few bad games that get over looked.

For me LB and CM are the 2 biggest priorities this summer followed by RW and RB.

Danny Rose who has struggled to fulfill his potential at Spurs. Even if people want to ignore this season Rose has played less games year on year due to injuries/fitness problems. If he keeps up his current problems with injuries and fitness he won't be able to regularly displace Young. Sessegnon and Tierney are both too young to come in and instantly demand a starting berth over Young and would probably for the first year be his deputy as they mature and learn about the Premier League and the level required, Similar in a way to how Lindelöf has been bedded in during the season, games here and there as he adapts. (and thats ignoring Sessegnon has I believe actually spent most of this season at LW).

I think I did see this morning we were supposedly linked with Alex Sandro who would eventually get ahead of Young alright but given his probable WC commitment he would miss pre-season and therefore also require some time to fit in, all be it not as much as the youngsters would.

yabadabado

An on form/fit Rose is a better FB than Young imo but he isn't a player I'd be particularly happy to see join.
I think Sessegnon will be a LW and isn't really an option. He hasn't played LB in months for Fulham.

Tierney is an interesting one he has looked very good but is playing in a poor league.

I think we need a proper left full, a left footer who can get up the flank, stretch teams and get crosses into the box without cutting back.

I think the bedding in scenario isn't really an issue. It's different for every player some need more time than others and know real way of knowing for sure how a player will adapt. It's always a bit of a gamble when a signing is made.

Either way I'd be very disappointed if a new LB isn't signed.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

It's not even a formation thing. It's been evident under Mourinho that our fullbacks have TONS of space to operate in, when going forward.

While in some formations and use of 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 your create fullback, wide player and midfielder create a triangle around the opposition fullback, that distorts the opposing centre back, ours more frequently leaves our fullback in acres or space, or isolated 1v1 with the opposing winger.

This is a good situation we constantly create, that our fullbacks waste time and time again.

You need a left footer on that side, with good delivery but who can also somewhat interplay.

Basically a hybrid of Shaw's explosive pace, Daley Blind's delivery and Young's reliability?

On the right side, in a football manager sim world, you just go out and buy Joshua Kimmich.

I couldn't agree with thismore.... just to add in that fbs who can play decent balls down the line can stretch the opposition defense too, Valencia cant do it and its too hard for young on his bad foot