Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

pjohnson

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Played right back a decent amount - could be used there as a first entry to the first team.

I would be selling form jones/smalling/rojo before TFM if we get Alderwield.

If we are looking at 4 new defenders I assume one is a new RB thus blocking TFM

Mitch Connor

astradave wrote: »

I do think Jose is going to look at Fullbacks who can cross the ball with accuracy, and quickly. TFM imo is more suited to CB or playing RB in a more defensive minded team. I don’t think he would have a good enough skill set to be there for us even as back up mainly because my hope would be a new RB then Valencia can be back up

I think Jose could look at other positions as needing more money spent and be ok with going into next season with Valencia and TFM as the right back options. Giving money to be spent on CB (40 for Alderwield), Lb (50+ for Sandro), CM (50 for Fred plus maybe 80 for Savic). thats 240million of transfers we've been well linked to.

Though I think if Fred and Savic were signed we'd recoup a lot of that outlay by selling Pogba. I don't think we sign those two players and keep Pogba.

Mitch Connor

pjohnson wrote: »

If we are looking at 4 new defenders I assume one is a new RB thus blocking TFM

Could be Valencia moves on so TFM is backup rightback, as well as a back up CB. If we sign a right back Valencia might want to leave for first team football elsewhere.

Maybe TFM does leave in the summer, but I don't think it is certain and I do think there can be room for him in the squad.

bangkok

brinty wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Really mate, don't raise to the bait, you're better than this....
You know where this ends up....

Nothing got to do with you. Im having a discussion with astradave.

bangkok

brinty wrote: »

Well that site is worth shag all use...
De gea 4th most valuable keeper
Neuer 8th most valuable....

And i stopped right there.....

De gea is joint 2nd most expensive so you need to read it again

Cantona's Collars

Mitch Connor wrote: »

a bit more than half the price of VVD, less than Stones, Laporte, not much more than Arsenal spent on Shkodran Mustafi. In todays market, I would reckon that is a good deal for him. Not a bargain, but good value. How much do you think he should go for, why do you think it is taking the piss?

He's almost out of contract and we'll end up paying him a billion a week in wages.;)
Maybe it's the fact I don't like the club doing business with Levy. That £40 million could quickly turn into £60 million.
One big positive is that he's a quality defender and if Jose wants him then obviously he trusts him, unlike some other players.

Trigger

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I think Jose could look at other positions as needing more money spent and be ok with going into next season with Valencia and TFM as the right back options. Giving money to be spent on CB (40 for Alderwield), Lb (50+ for Sandro), CM (50 for Fred plus maybe 80 for Savic). thats 240million of transfers we've been well linked to.

Though I think if Fred and Savic were signed we'd recoup a lot of that outlay by selling Pogba. I don't think we sign those two players and keep Pogba.

Castles is saying we will only sign 2 CM if Fellaini moves on, to replace Carrick and Fellaini then.

With the defenders he is looking at up to 4 with shaw Darmian and Blind moving on, so LB is a banker, someone to replace Darmian so RB could be there too and I think at least 1 CB is likely to be gone. So Alderweirald in there hopefully.

So we would have at Fb

LB. Sandro/Young
RB New RB/Valencia

CB: Bailly, lindelof, Rojo, Smalling, Jones, Alderweirald(if we move)

TFM could for sure get games if he sticks around at both CB and RB as I’m sure we will have an injury crisis at some point.


If Fellaini moves For the CM we would be left with

Matic, Pogba, Herrera, McTominay for 3 positions if we stay with 433. We would definitely need to bring in 2 even without selling Pogba

Adamocovic

astradave wrote: »

But it works both ways because sites like that don’t really take into account club factors and the like. They only really use hard stats. So taking into account the circumstances around Martial, while his statistical market value is 57m his true market value could be considerably lower. Personally think he will go for between 45/50m. I’d be very surprised (in a good way)if we got between 60-80m gbp for him

Well did some quick research there. Only for PL during 2017/2018. Looked at club purchases, no free agents, no loans, no swap deals etc.

Number may be slightly off as I did them in my head but it worked out as:

116 Players Purchased
14 Bought for under the Transfermarkt Market Value

So 88% of purchases saw a fee greater than the value they had stated.
Of the 12% less the majority are players like Walters, Bardsley, Chicarito.
Notable players are Ross Barkley (-£7m*), Giroud (-£2m*) and Aubameyang (-£1m*).

This may only include the PL but I really don't have the time right now to look at every league, something I would be interested in, but it is enough to suggest to me that the market value on these sites tend to be lower than fees we see spent. I always tended to notice that over the years but 88% is quite high.

When it comes to Martial the opinion on whether to sell him is divided. Also a lot say we can't get a good deal for him because he's a surplus or bench player. Well considering he made 30 appearances in the PL alone (18 starts) with I think 9 goals and 5 assists, while apparently still having a poor season to me suggests he is still worth a lot.

He is still 22 years old, and not only has he shown some brilliant moments still has a lot of appealing potential. If we were to sell him, which I hope not, I wouldn't be happy in giving someone a bargain.

But then again we haven't gotten the best history when it comes to getting the best deal for players we are selling. This would be a perfect time to change that.

yabadabado

Be no harm sending TFM out on loan again if a RB is signed. He is still only 20 so another full season with an EPL will do him good.
New RB and Valencia or Jose takes his chances with Valencia and TMF as RB options.

Cantona's Collars

I didn't see this posted.

Wolves make approach for Lindelof either on loan or a permanent deal.

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/exclusive-wolves-double-lindelof-offer-gives-mourinho-much-to-consider

Personally, I'd like to see him given a chance to prove himself. I prefer watching him take the ball out of defense than Smalling trying to work out which foot is his left or his right.

Mitch Connor

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

He's almost out of contract and we'll end up paying him a billion a week in wages.;)
Maybe it's the fact I don't like the club doing business with Levy. That £40 million could quickly turn into £60 million.
One big positive is that he's a quality defender and if Jose wants him then obviously he trusts him, unlike some other players.

Is it not that Spurs have an extention option for 2019/20 but would also inact a 20million release fee in exercising it.

So, in effect he has two years on his contract, with a potential to buy for 20million next summer.

Maybe he would cost 60, but 40 is the figure you are saying is taking the piss and what I am arguing against.

So, what figure do you think he should be going for when he is two years off being a free transfer and 12 months off a 20million value? 25million? 30million? I think those figures are way too low in this market. 40million is about right, imo. Certainly not ripping the piss.

pjohnson

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

I didn't see this posted.

Wolves make approach for Lindelof either on loan or a permanent deal.

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/exclusive-wolves-double-lindelof-offer-gives-mourinho-much-to-consider

Personally, I'd like to see him given a chance to prove himself. I prefer watching him take the ball out of defense than Smalling trying to work out which foot is his left or his right.

If we sign Alderweireld Lindelöf simply wont get as many games as he needs. He'll develop by playing and he can get that at Wolves.

Mitch Connor

astradave wrote: »

Castles is saying we will only sign 2 CM if Fellaini moves on, to replace Carrick and Fellaini then.

With the defenders he is looking at up to 4 with shaw Darmian and Blind moving on, so LB is a banker, someone to replace Darmian so RB could be there too and I think at least 1 CB is likely to be gone. So Alderweirald in there hopefully.

So we would have at Fb

LB. Sandro/Young
RB New RB/Valencia

CB: Bailly, lindelof, Rojo, Smalling, Jones, Alderweirald(if we move)

TFM could for sure get games if he sticks around at both CB and RB as I’m sure we will have an injury crisis at some point.


If Fellaini moves For the CM we would be left with

Matic, Pogba, Herrera, McTominay for 3 positions if we stay with 433. We would definitely need to bring in 2 even without selling Pogba

If we sign Alderwield there is no way we keep all the CBs we had this season.

My thing with signing Savic and Fred is that I don't think we spend that much and not be signing first choice players. Maybe fred would come in for Matic - but I think 80million on Savic is only going to happen if he is being brought in to replace Pogba, whatever Castles is saying.

Adamocovic

brinty wrote: »

Well that site is worth shag all use...
De gea 4th most valuable keeper
Neuer 8th most valuable....

And i stopped right there.....

Fair enough, the values on the site are a combination of databases which take into account contract lengths, salaries, previous asking prices, trends and transfer speculation reports. While I would rate De Gea as the most valuable I'm not going put up too much of a fight for most they have ahead currently going for more than he would. It makes sense to me with all things considered.

Jan Oblak. Renowned as one of the best in the world, 25 years old, has a contract until 2021 (that would increase his fee) and being heavily linked with a move to the PL.

Ederson. Just bought for £36m. 24 years old. Contracted until 2025. He would cost people an absolute fortune due to the contract alone.

Courtois is then valued at the same price as DDG. Both two of the top keepers in the world, both are 26 and 27 years old. Contracts running out the same time in 2019 and both regularly linked to Real Madrid. Don't see what's so crazy about this.

As for Neuer his current value has more than likely dropped considering he's been out of football for nearly a year.
Personally don't see the above nearly as crazy as you seem to think it is.

You may not rate the site as the calculated values don't meet what you believe players to be but I find it generally is a very good indicator for the ball park figure a player goes for and normally that figure is greater than the calculated value.

brinty

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

I didn't see this posted.

Wolves make approach for Lindelof either on loan or a permanent deal.

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/exclusive-wolves-double-lindelof-offer-gives-mourinho-much-to-consider

Personally, I'd like to see him given a chance to prove himself. I prefer watching him take the ball out of defense than Smalling trying to work out which foot is his left or his right.

pjohnson wrote: »

If we sign Alderweireld Lindelöf simply wont get as many games as he needs. He'll develop by playing and he can get that at Wolves.

Are we off our faces or something...

Lindelof on loan to Wolves... we spent circa 30m on him last summer he's going nowhere... maybe TFM could go to Wolves if needed on loan

Trigger

Adamocovic wrote: »

Well did some quick research there. Only for PL during 2017/2018. Looked at club purchases, no free agents, no loans, no swap deals etc.

Number may be slightly off as I did them in my head but it worked out as:

116 Players Purchased
14 Bought for under the Transfermarkt Market Value

So 88% of purchases saw a fee greater than the value they had stated.
Of the 12% less the majority are players like Walters, Bardsley, Chicarito.
Notable players are Ross Barkley (-£7m*), Giroud (-£2m*) and Aubameyang (-£1m*).

This may only include the PL but I really don't have the time right now to look at every league, something I would be interested in, but it is enough to suggest to me that the market value on these sites tend to be lower than fees we see spent. I always tended to notice that over the years but 88% is quite high.

When it comes to Martial the opinion on whether to sell him is divided. Also a lot say we can't get a good deal for him because he's a surplus or bench player. Well considering he made 30 appearances in the PL alone (18 starts) with I think 9 goals and 5 assists, while apparently still having a poor season to me suggests he is still worth a lot.

He is still 22 years old, and not only has he shown some brilliant moments still has a lot of appealing potential. If we were to sell him, which I hope not, I wouldn't be happy in giving someone a bargain.

But then again we haven't gotten the best history when it comes to getting the best deal for players we are selling. This would be a perfect time to change that.

Good post, appreciate the effort going into that, just looking at the names you posted there, would there be many of the names that went for + that are not particularly wanted by their club or are at a stand off with them as that seems to be one of the main points of the - players?

This will be significant in deciding the fee for martial, the details surrounding why he wants out or why Jose wants out.

Another detail is that I don’t think he would be sold to a PL team as the only teams that could really afford him will be deemed rivals. Unless he is going to the cash rich teams like PSG/Barca/Madrid I cant see us getting the market value that you are saying. Even PSG would try to penny pinch due to the club circumstances.

What my original point was trying to emphasise, is that the sites would use strict statistical guides when generating it and wouldn’t take in club/personal circumstances. So statistically he would be worth that, but realistically he could be worth much more or much less.

brinty

Adamocovic wrote: »

Fair enough, the values on the site are a combination of databases which take into account contract lengths, salaries, previous asking prices, trends and transfer speculation reports. While I would rate De Gea as the most valuable I'm not going put up too much of a fight for most they have ahead currently going for more than he would. It makes sense to me with all things considered.

Jan Oblak. Renowned as one of the best in the world, 25 years old, has a contract until 2021 (that would increase his fee) and being heavily linked with a move to the PL.

Ederson. Just bought for £36m. 24 years old. Contracted until 2025. He would cost people an absolute fortune due to the contract alone.

Courtois is then valued at the same price as DDG. Both two of the top keepers in the world, both are 26 and 27 years old. Contracts running out the same time in 2019 and both regularly linked to Real Madrid. Don't see what's so crazy about this.

As for Neuer his current value has more than likely dropped considering he's been out of football for nearly a year.
Personally don't see the above nearly as crazy as you seem to think it is.

You may not rate the site as the calculated values don't meet what you believe players to be but I find it generally is a very good indicator for the ball park figure a player goes for and normally that figure is greater than the calculated value.

Its about as useful and sourced as Teamtalk and planet football...

But look everyone is entitled to their opinion and i accept what you say in regard to the values.

Mitch Connor

pjohnson wrote: »

If we sign Alderweireld Lindelöf simply wont get as many games as he needs. He'll develop by playing and he can get that at Wolves.

Or he could work to put himself over Jones and Smalling, battling with bailly (another non-certainty to start at the moment) to be first choice alongside ALderwield. Beside a proper defensive leader he could come on leaps and bounds.

If he can't place himself over Jones, Smalling and Rojo next seaso he isn't going to make it at United anyway, imo.

Trigger

brinty wrote: »

Its about as useful and sourced as Teamtalk and planet football...

But look everyone is entitled to their opinion and i accept what you say in regard to the values.

You haven’t really put forward an argument against it tbf Brinty :pac:

Adamocovic

astradave wrote: »

Good post, appreciate the effort going into that, just looking at the names you posted there, would there be many of the names that went for + that are not particularly wanted by their club or are at a stand off with them as that seems to be one of the main points of the - players?

This will be significant in deciding the fee for martial, the details surrounding why he wants out or why Jose wants out.

Another detail is that I don’t think he would be sold to a PL team as the only teams that could really afford him will be deemed rivals. Unless he is going to the cash rich teams like PSG/Barca/Madrid I cant see us getting the market value that you are saying. Even PSG would try to penny pinch due to the club circumstances.

What my original point was trying to emphasise, is that the sites would use strict statistical guides when generating it and wouldn’t take in club/personal circumstances. So statistically he would be worth that, but realistically he could be worth much more or much less.

I agree it heavily depends on who comes looking for him. For instance we are a club who tend to always pay more than the market value stated on that site.
Again when selling players who were unwanted the buying team is a big factor. For example they had us selling Januzaj for more than he was worth.

The only factor that I think takes into account who is looking for them is when they incorporate the reported transfer fees from media outlets, which at times can be correct others not so much.

With Martial it would be hard to know really. It sounds bad but if this was another team I could see them getting a good deal for him but I just think we have this reputation that teams believe we are prepared to sell at a loss to free up space due to our financial situation. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

Still believe Martial has shown enough to suggest he will be a big player if he does move on.

brinty

astradave wrote: »

You haven’t really put forward an argument against it tbf Brinty :pac:

STFU you

As one poster pointed out Neymar went for above the value he's at, another poster discussed how almost 90% of signings were for above the market value in EPL this season so why would you trust it??

Yea its a great starting point for arbitrary reasons but its not going to do much for me in terms of what i'd pay and i doubt any clubs use it as a basis for starting transfer talks.

Adamocovic

brinty wrote: »

Its about as useful and sourced as Teamtalk and planet football...

But look everyone is entitled to their opinion and i accept what you say in regard to the values.

Personally think that is a bit much of a dig to make after only seeing the site and closing it after seeing 8 values for goalkeepers :pac:

Teamtalk and Planetfootball tend to be more lighthearted opinion pieces, historical articles, quizzes and transfer rumours. Transfermarkt is generally used for market values, transfer histories and contract history. You can see this even comparing homepages, it's mostly the latest information they give you compared to the other two showing abundance of opinion pieces.

Maybe I'm bias as I love stats and figures and it's one of the most popular out there when it comes to market figures for clubs and players. Like I said though, they aren't ranking who is the best but the most expensive at the moment.

I know stats aren't for everyone but for years I have found it to be a great site. Very useful in the old FM careers back a number of years ago :P

TheDoc

Lindelof on loan to Wolves sound incredibly condescending.

This is a title winning, champions league experienced, 23 year old Swedish international. He's not some kid from an academy.

Need to **** or get of the pot, either keep and continue his integration or sell and call it a lost cause.

Personally I have Lindeloff ahead of Smalling,Jones and Rojo. He hasn't been amazing, he was piss at the start, but has built up over the season and he's looked a lot better and his ball playing ability cannot be underestimated. And so far he looks robust and not prone to injury like Jones, Rojo and Bailly. We need to develop a consistent CB pairing back there.

Just my opinion, but I'd be looking to offload Smalling and Jones asap to replace with AlderW, and go into the season with AlderW,Bailly,Lindeloff and Rojo as CB's, keeping Blind knowing he can cover there and knowing we are getting TFM back, who we should bring into the squad as RB cover and further CB depth.

Adamocovic

brinty wrote: »

STFU you

As one poster pointed out Neymar went for above the value he's at, another poster discussed how almost 90% of signings were for above the market value in EPL this season so why would you trust it??

Yea its a great starting point for arbitrary reasons but its not going to do much for me in terms of what i'd pay and i doubt any clubs use it as a basis for starting transfer talks.

I'll put my hand up for this can of worms. And I see the confusion.

Nobody is suggesting that any club will use this site. A window was given for what some people would think is a potential fee for Martial, was shut down by others and I made the point that using the MV on that site and how often that the MV is below the Fee paid it might not be the craziest of the money to be suggesting for him.

Again other factors like astradave has pointed out.

brinty

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'll put my hand up for this can of worms. And I see the confusion.

Nobody is suggesting that any club will use this site. A window was given for what some people would think is a potential fee for Martial, was shut down by others and I made the point that using the MV on that site and how often that the MV is below the Fee paid it might not be the craziest of the money to be suggesting for him.

Again other factors like astradave has pointed out.

Agh absolutely mate, i'm not having a dig at ye on this at all. Your second paragraph sums up exactly my thoughts on things.

And i think as you also said it depends on who comes looking for a player. Clubs will charge a upper ecehelon and supposed cash rich club (United, City, PSG, Real and Barca) more for a player than a club at a level below this. Suppose you could call it the Spurs premium for want of a better term..

For example and i'm not having a go at Liverpool here but i think if we'd bid for Salah last summer we'd have been quoted a significantly higher figure than what Liverpool paid for him.

You also have to factor in the likes of the players own brand (i.e. Ronaldo), ability to develop into a better player (i.e Mbappe) and recent transfer activity outward of the buying club (i.e. VVD would've cost less had Pool not got the money for Coutinho burning a hole in their arse pocket) and a certain premium gets attached for those factors.

Hopefully I've not covered old ground with that ramble

Trigger

https://twitter.com/sport_witness/status/996417623872163840?s=21

The 4 teams in the article are Real, Bayern, PSG and United

Also this

https://twitter.com/espnuk/status/996382191402737664?s=21

Woop transfer rumour season has officially begun!

brinty

astradave wrote: »

Woop transfer rumour season has officially begun!

Should we maintain an online tracker of who we get linked to this summer and how much the deal will cost...

Sweepstakes with #of players linked and total value of deals prizes....

I know it's only 'rumours' but we've been linked with Willian a fair bit over the last few months, so I'll say this - Gaining a Willian and losing a Martial or a Rashford, just no.

Lord TSC

Deleted User wrote: »

I know it's only 'rumours' but we've been linked with Willian a fair bit over the last few months, so I'll say this - Gaining a Willian and losing a Martial or a Rashford, just no.

Meh, Willian would drastically improve our right flank, and losing Martial won't hurt our left flank. We'd be far better balanced in that scenario.

Trigger

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know it's only 'rumours' but we've been linked with Willian a fair bit over the last few months, so I'll say this - Gaining a Willian and losing a Martial or a Rashford, just no.

You need to look at it like, losing a wantaway LW and gaining a decent RW

brinty

astradave wrote: »

You need to look at it like, losing a wantaway LW and gaining a decent RW

but but but Jose said he picked up an injury.... and that's why he didn't play on sunday.....

are you saying he's lying to me......

I'm disgusted....

#JoseOut #HeLiedtoMe

In case anyone hasn't seen it, Adidas are having a discount for today only on their site, 25% off with the promo code FRIENDS at checkout.

The new 3rd jersey is included in this, meaning you can get it for €67 delivered.

Zeek12

A dominant CB like AlderW is a must.
We dont have reliable strong leaders at the back anymore, in the Vidic, Ferdinand or Stam mould. Definitely need to strengthen here.
And while it will cost us, it would be worth it. The eyebrows raised at Van Dijk's transfer fee are vanishing quickly when you see the difference he's made.

Bailly is decent but far too injury prone.
Jones is error prone and probably needs three full-time physios all to himself :pac:

I'd stick with Lindelof for one more season anyway; even some of the best defenders have needed time to adapt to the physicality of the Premiership.

Two full backs probably needed too. Jose is never going to take to Shaw - just cant see it happening

Rossi IRL

I'd agree with those who have said to keep Lindeloff over Jones, Rojo, Smalling.

Those 3 have been with us for a few years and haven't cemented their place yet.

Get in Alderweireld, get Bailly fit and have Lindeloff and Bailly as the other CB alongside Alderweireld

yabadabado

Alderweirald instantly improves the first xi, if he's available for around the rumoured 40m then he should be signed.
Sell Jones or Smalling then.

If United want to catch up with City then Jose/Ed need to be ruthless this summer, get rid of the deadwood and improve the starting so.To do that it probably means 4 new first team starter are needed.

Cotts72

Said it myself weeks back. If Alderweireld became available to sign then hes a MUST . Instantly improves us and adds leadership to the back. hes arguable the best CB in the league and provides quality distribution from defence also.

Im all for smalling and Jones to leave. I think its too soon to call time on Lindelof and would give Rojo one more season

Liam O

Jones has been very good this season. Had his usual fitness issues but not to the same degree. I (perhaps misguidedly admittedly) have faith that he can put his fitness problems behind him as Evans did in his late 20s and if that happens he will be the monster that he always threatened to be (and not just from his facial expressions).

raze_them_all_

id ship neither tbh, keep them as back up, we know united always get injured, back in the day our team had actual depth

Will I Am Not

Blast from the past

Lucas Hood

Wonder why Tuanzebe isn't getting a game for a Villa.

Mitch Connor

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

id ship neither tbh, keep them as back up, we know united always get injured, back in the day our team had actual depth

Keeping players fir the sake of it is part of Uniteds problem. Need to start being ruthless with players who just aren't good enough and have been given more than enough chances already

Alderwield, Bailly, lindelof, Fosu-mensah - do we need all of Jones, smalling and Rojo on top of that.

Lord TSC

Lord TSC wrote: »

Meh, Willian would drastically improve our right flank, and losing Martial won't hurt our left flank. We'd be far better balanced in that scenario.

astradave wrote: »

You need to look at it like, losing a wantaway LW and gaining a decent RW

It's more Willian's age than anything else. I do like him and think he would do a job for the team, but for how long? Also, just how sure are we that Martial is 'want away'?

We do need proven players who can mount a title challenge in the next 2 seasons more than the next 4-7. However, I can't help but keep an eye on the medium to long term while still acknowledging that we need proven quality now. There should be a balance with that too, as well as tactical balances with the team formation. Talk of signing Willian and Alderweireld, after signing Matic and Sanchez for first team places, hints at a tilt towards an older first team.

As I said before, if Martial wants out or is issuing any sort of 'play me or I leave' ultimatum, then out to fúck with him. I have no major affinity for him these days, he or Rashford. It's just that we need to keep some younger potential players around, and they are two of the best.

Jose has signed younger players in his time at OT so far, and will likely do so again. Then there are players like Sanchez, Willian, Alderweireld, even Matic - All players in their peak, great, but players we need to do a job immediately. 'Immediately' being next season, Jose's third and likely 'make or break' season.

Sign all the experienced players by all means. It's not the worst problem to have. At this stage, I can understand the manager's decision if he goes that way because for 2 seasons now he has given youth and potential a fair chance, but has still not won that required PL title. He will likely seek out players he can 'trust' and 'love' now. I'm just a bit wary of the amount of younger players this could push out in the process. Definitely in our attack. Our CBs could do with a shake-up though.

Trigger

Good points there Stu

The one thing that we were sorely lacking this season was on field leaders, and the young lads just don’t do that at the moment. I think that’s why Jose is targeting these type of players, but along with those we have Fred and Savic being targeted too which would give us a nice blend of youth and experience that we are missing. Smalling in particular really irritates me in this aspect, he is supposed to be one of the senior players, but he doesn’t act it on the pitch, Sanchez has come in and you can visibly see him trying lead the team, though he hasn’t showed much performance wise at the moment I would take that as coming into a new set up mid season.

Lukaku seems to have that natural leadership quality too.. but we need more of those on the pitch.

Jose will be under severe pressure to mount a title challenge next season, will the fans give him a pass if he sticks with the youth and doesn’t achieve this.. not a hope.. it really is a damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t situation

BenK

Liam O wrote: »

Jones has been very good this season. Had his usual fitness issues but not to the same degree. I (perhaps misguidedly admittedly) have faith that he can put his fitness problems behind him as Evans did in his late 20s and if that happens he will be the monster that he always threatened to be (and not just from his facial expressions).

If it was between retaining him or Smalling I'd move Smalling on. Smalling can be a decent defender but his distribution and general ability on the ball is very poor for a cb for a top team. Everything is so safe and telegraphed with him. Jones isn't a world beater in that regard either but I think he has a higher ceiling and better leadership qualities too.

astradave

astradave wrote: »

Good points there Stu

The one thing that we were sorely lacking this season was on field leaders, and the young lads just don’t do that at the moment. I think that’s why Jose is targeting these type of players, but along with those we have Fred and Savic being targeted too which would give us a nice blend of youth and experience that we are missing. Smalling in particular really irritates me in this aspect, he is supposed to be one of the senior players, but he doesn’t act it on the pitch, Sanchez has come in and you can visibly see him trying lead the team, though he hasn’t showed much performance wise at the moment I would take that as coming into a new set up mid season.

Lukaku seems to have that natural leadership quality too.. but we need more of those on the pitch.

Jose will be under severe pressure to mount a title challenge next season, will the fans give him a pass if he sticks with the youth and doesn’t achieve this.. not a hope..

Leadership, sure that's a whole other TLDR :pac:

I agree with you on pretty much all of the above, but the bolded part is essentially what it boils down to.

It's like Jose has tried it various ways over the first two seasons, but with pressure mounting on him to deliver next season he is basically saying "Fúck it, it's my neck on the line, we are doing it my way now".

I'm just wondering if there's a way to do that, but also keep Martial and Rashford happy at the same time. I suppose that would fall into the 'have cake, eat cake' category, and something's got to give if we badly want another PL title.

billyhead

Levy is horrendous to deal with so I would probably avoid Alderweireld altogether. I hope though we don't chase Danny Rose in the window

Mitch Connor

billyhead wrote: »

Levy is horrendous to deal with so I would probably avoid Alderweireld altogether. I hope though we don't chase Danny Rose in the window

Apparently poch wants the out goings sorted quickly, so there may be a chance for a quicker than usual deal with spurs.

yabadabado

billyhead wrote: »

Levy is horrendous to deal with so I would probably avoid Alderweireld altogether. I hope though we don't chase Danny Rose in the window

I wouldn't be avoiding Alderweireld because of Levy.I think it's in everyone's best interests to move him on quickly as possible.
He seems to have burnt his bridge's at Spurs so move him on and if he decides United is the club he wants then its shouldn't be overly complicated.

If Spurs don't sell him now they basically have him hanging around not playing unless Poch has a change of heart which isn't likely imo.

deaddonkey15

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Keeping players fir the sake of it is part of Uniteds problem. Need to start being ruthless with players who just aren't good enough and have been given more than enough chances already

Alderwield, Bailly, lindelof, Fosu-mensah - do we need all of Jones, smalling and Rojo on top of that.

I'd be getting rid of Smalling and Rojo there. Worth keeping Jones as he's homegrown and somewhat decent.

Trigger

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I'd be getting rid of Smalling and Rojo there. Worth keeping Jones as he's homegrown and somewhat decent.

I’d agree from a talent POV, but is he reliable enough to even be back up, this season wasn’t too bad but history shows him to be unreliable over the course of seasons