Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

My point was that people are selectively changing what they are upset about with Jose as the season progresses. Before Christmas it was top 6 perfomance and when that improved it was Lower teams performance. Like I said united won the league when they dropped most their points against poor teams. I don’t think your post is a concern at all to be honest especially if you look at how poorly most top teams have been the last month against teams they shoulda be beating. Klopp and Poch struggled to get their sides hyped up for the last 8 of so league games as their performances weren’t exactly inspiring so Jose is not alone on that.

People may change their minds over the course of the season which is natural - their opinions will be formed by what they see on the pitch.
Like I said, I don't personally gripe about our results against the top teams - we did pretty ok there.

I dont really see the relevance of the 2007 season, and how we dropped so many points against weak teams back then.
Thats over a decade ago.
The game has moved on and is much more progressive from an attacking perspective.

United will not win many titles aiming for 80-85 points and losing games to relegation fodder. That much is clear.

As regards Klopp and his latter games of the PL, you can't read too much into that. Once the Pool knocked City out of the CL, their focus was totally on making that Final.

I'm not some blinkered whinger by the way. I can give Jose some credit.
Back to back Champs League qualification is a positive.

But a deeper analysis shows there are many things not right with this team.
Its too simple to state we've made huge progress just by finishing second.

Several players look dispirited or not interested.

Too many of Jose's big money marquee signings have simply not worked out.
Pogba, Lindelof, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan all spring to mind....

We can't keep blaming Van Gaal or Moyes for the squad, or for the performances

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would you ever feck off with this Narative. I've proven more than willing to discuss my issues, at length.

When I've shown annoyance is when I get attacked (and that is accurate) for pointing to results and performances vs Seville, West brom and others cause "oh look, bringing up Seville again, just like I said you would"

I was the one in here calling for Jose the most, so don't paint me as a simple Jose hater. Engage in the actual discussion based on the actual points raised and stop saying I just look to shut down any counter debate cause it is simply a lie and I'm fed up of your deliberate misrepresentation of my position and opinion.

Perhaps I missed your posts where you had a counter balance to your negative narrative on Jose so maybe this will help us clear up this understanding:

1. What have been the positives you have taken from the season ?
2. What season do you feel where the team closest to challenging for the league since SAF retired ? Please elaborate.
3. Why do you feel Jose was able to win top honour's at every other club but United ? If you think he is "past it" do you accept that that there is a strong chance that he is not "past it"?
4. Do you accept that the issues of the squad/team may not be down mainly to the manager ?
5. What role/responsibility do you feel the owners/CEO have played in the state of the club since they took on more responsibilities when Gill/SAF left ?
6. How do you feel Man City's spending (more then 30% more most seasons) will affect any United managers ability to challenge for the top trophies?
7. How do you feel Man City's spending will affect a United manager getting their target if both clubs are after the same player ?
8. Do you think the United manager chooses what players are signed or that they are involved on a lesser capacity but do get some input.
9. Do you think the club ever signs players for reasons other then enhancing the squad? (marketing, opportunistic, cock up by Woodward)

Very straight forward questions. I am genuinely interested to see how you think about these things. You can ask me anything on Jose, I don't mind qualifying my opinions. .

All the other "Jose out" brigade are welcome to address these questions aswell.

GSPfan

@Drumpot & brinty & anyone else who fully supports Jose.

To be honest there are people here in this forum who didn’t want Jose as our manager from the start and they have stuck by that opinion to this day. Can you really blame them when everything they feared has come true?

I was happy enough with Jose when he came in. As Lord TSC said I look at things on a spectrum so I was mostly satisfied with him and hoped he’d prove the doubters wrong but I’ve grown to be mostly dissatisfied with him now. He hasn’t failed in every aspect as he has delivered some trophies and he for the most part has used youth players more than people thought. But he has made us into an anti-football side who parks the bus. We are boring to watch. If anything I’ve realised I watch football moreso to be entertained than to win so if my opinions have somehow changed over time it’s because I’ve learned that what I thought was important is now not.

If I am honest I would like Jose to go but only because I want to love watching football again and I’ve now realised I’d rather support an entertaining team with a more erratic chance of winning trophies versus a boring team with a more definitive chance of winning trophies.

I’m actively hunting less glory!

jimmytwotimes 2013

bucketybuck wrote: »

I can't wait for Mourinho to get sacked. The intensity of head scratching when the likes of Pogba and Shaw continue to under perform for the new manager could be harnessed to power several third world countries.

Pogba needs to answer for himself too tho. Jose didn't tell him to miss a sitter of a header yesterday.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

you can say that the manager has struggled to get the squad he has to perform well in games against weaker teams. But you can’t say with confidence that the mangager is the one who decided to sign all these players.

And critics of Jose are constantly changing The goalposts.. Before Christmas the issue was our record against top teams, now it’s the record against bottom clubs? People are choosing to latch onto any variable that suits how they feel about Jose.

For the record, In 2007 united won the league and dropped most their points against teams below 7th!

That's unfair. I really feel that the constant one-line posting by one or two anti-Jose posters is tarring the rest with that brush and it's undeserving. Also, our record against Top 6 teams before Christmas was quite poor, since then it has improved. Back then our record against the bottom/newly promoted teams wasn't as bad as it is now. That is not 'changing the goalposts', it is adjusting to a changing reality. You're basically getting at people for not being able to predict the future here.

Are you honestly saying that Jose isn't to blame for at least some of the 'dross' we've witnessed as football in the last 4-6 months? On the flipside, are you suggesting that the players aren't deserving of some praise for "2nd and an (almost) FA Cup, progression", or is that praise just Jose's to take?

I'm someone who has supported Jose, who feels he gets a hard time from the media and a minority of United fans who will just never warm to him, someone who has confidence in him for a third season, but also someone who has qualms about his second season.

Respect Drumpot, but it's comments like the first sentence of the bolded above, the 'I see the hyperbole is out in full force' from earlier, the likes of what brinty said that adox responded to, all the snide shíte from otherwise good posters, which puts people off posting some thought-out criticism of Jose.

The players have been poor this season, but that has been well discussed at this point by both fans and even the manager. It seems that the players are fair game for any level or harshness of criticism, but Jose isn't. At the same time, it's like the manager is exclusively deserving of all praise for progression and achievements, but most of the players who achieved this can be slated and/or fúcked out in the Summer.

I agree with many of your points generally in here, but trying to shutdown most of the criticism of the manager is not something I agree with. Intentional or not, it seems to be creeping in a lot more lately that if you criticise Jose, you are shouted down or don't know your arse from your elbows.

Whether I agree with certain criticisms of Jose or not, I do not agree with shutting it all down. Players and managers have their part to play for both the season's highs and lows, what has been a mixed season with shades of gray, and we should be able to discuss it now that it's over.

Drumpot

GSPfan wrote: »

@Drumpot & brinty & anyone else who fully supports Jose.

To be honest there are people here in this forum who didn’t want Jose as our manager from the start and they have stuck by that opinion to this day. Can you really blame them when everything they feared has come true?

I was happy enough with Jose when he came in. As Lord TSC said I look at things on a spectrum so I was mostly satisfied with him and hoped he’d prove the doubters wrong but I’ve grown to be mostly dissatisfied with him now. He hasn’t failed in every aspect as he has delivered some trophies and he for the most part has used youth players more than people thought. But he has made us into an anti-football side who parks the bus. We are boring to watch. If anything I’ve realised I watch football moreso to be entertained than to win so if my opinions have somehow changed over time it’s because I’ve learned that what I thought was important is now not.

If I am honest I would like Jose to go but only because I want to love watching football again and I’ve now realised I’d rather support an entertaining team with a more erratic chance of winning trophies versus a boring team with a more definitive chance of winning trophies.

I’m actively hunting less glory!

The problem GPS as I see it is that fans aren't looking at all variables. . They are looking over the fence at City and Liverpool and saying "I want that" and getting upset at the slagging. . Jose has been successful at every club he has managed and for people to presume the problem is him and not the way the club is being managed needs to be addressed if we are going to have a proper discussion on the problems of the club.

If you are playing the kind of football United have been you have to win trophies. This season has been objectively forgettable as far as being a United fan is concerned. So, as a United fan I can choose to say "I don't want this, lets change" or "I see progress, think Jose is weeding out the crap and that there is potential success coming". I choose the latter because I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the club has been run poorly (including transfer targets/acquisitions) and the squad is not as strong as some people are making out. I also choose to trust in a proven successful manager over owners/CEO that we actually cant objectively rate.

I think this is a more prudent stance to take when EVERYTHING is factored in and I include the 9 questions I posted. These are important factors that show primarily blaming the united manager is a cop out stance to take.

deaddonkey15

Deleted User wrote: »

That's unfair. I really feel that the constant one-line posting by one or two anti-Jose posters is tarring the rest with that brush and it's undeserving. Also, our record against Top 6 teams before Christmas was quite poor, since then it has improved. Back then our record against the bottom/newly promoted teams wasn't as bad as it is now. That is not 'changing the goalposts', it is adjusting to a changing reality. You're basically getting at people for not being able to predict the future here.

Are you honestly saying that Jose isn't to blame for at least some of the 'dross' we've witnessed as football in the last 4-6 months? On the flipside, are you suggesting that the players aren't deserving of some praise for "2nd and an (almost) FA Cup, progression", or is that praise just Jose's to take?

I'm someone who has supported Jose, who feels he gets a hard time from the media and a minority of United fans who will just never warm to him, someone who has confidence in him for a third season, but also someone who has qualms about his second season.

Respect Drumpot, but it's comments like the first sentence of the bolded above, the 'I see the hyperbole is out in full force' from earlier, the likes of what brinty said that adox responded to, all the snide shíte from otherwise good posters, which puts people off posting some thought-out criticism of Jose.

The players have been poor this season, but that has been well discussed at this point by both fans and even the manager. It seems that the players are fair game for any level or harshness of criticism, but Jose isn't. At the same time, it's like the manager is exclusively deserving of all praise for progression and achievements, but most of the players who achieved this can be slated and/or fúcked out in the Summer.

I agree with many of your points generally in here, but trying to shutdown most of the criticism of the manager is not something I agree with. Intentional or not, it seems to be creeping in a lot more lately that if you criticise Jose, you are shouted down or don't know your arse from your elbows.

Whether I agree with certain criticisms of Jose or not, I do not agree with shutting it all down. Players and managers have their part to play for both the season's highs and lows, what has been a mixed season with shades of gray, and we should be able to discuss it now that it's over.

Great post.

Zeek12

Deleted User wrote: »

That's unfair. I really feel that the constant one-line posting by one or two anti-Jose posters is tarring the rest with that brush and it's undeserving. Also, our record against Top 6 teams before Christmas was quite poor, since then it has improved. Back then our record against the bottom/newly promoted teams wasn't as bad as it is now. That is not 'changing the goalposts', it is adjusting to a changing reality. You're basically getting at people for not being able to predict the future here.

Are you honestly saying that Jose isn't to blame for at least some of the 'dross' we've witnessed as football in the last 4-6 months? On the flipside, are you suggesting that the players aren't deserving of some praise for "2nd and an (almost) FA Cup, progression", or is that praise just Jose's to take?

I'm someone who has supported Jose, who feels he gets a hard time from the media and a minority of United fans who will just never warm to him, someone who has confidence in him for a third season, but also someone who has qualms about his second season.

Respect Drumpot, but it's comments like the first sentence of the bolded above, the 'I see the hyperbole is out in full force' from earlier, the likes of what brinty said that adox responded to, all the snide shíte from otherwise good posters, which puts people off posting some thought-out criticism of Jose.

The players have been poor this season, but that has been well discussed at this point by both fans and even the manager. It seems that the players are fair game for any level or harshness of criticism, but Jose isn't. At the same time, it's like the manager is exclusively deserving of all praise for progression and achievements, but most of the players who achieved this can be slated and/or fúcked out in the Summer.

I agree with many of your points generally in here, but trying to shutdown most of the criticism of the manager is not something I agree with. Intentional or not, it seems to be creeping in a lot more lately that if you criticise Jose, you are shouted down or don't know your arse from your elbows.

Whether I agree with certain criticisms of Jose or not, I do not agree with shutting it all down. Players and managers have their part to play for both the season's highs and lows, what has been a mixed season with shades of gray, and we should be able to discuss it now that it's over.

Thanks for this articulate and well written post.

Many posters here have simply voiced their concerns at what we're seeing - but that doesn't make us hysterical Jose haters by default.

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

That's unfair. I really feel that the constant one-line posting by one or two anti-Jose posters is tarring the rest with that brush and it's undeserving. Also, our record against Top 6 teams before Christmas was quite poor, since then it has improved. Back then our record against the bottom/newly promoted teams wasn't as bad as it is now. That is not 'changing the goalposts', it is adjusting to a changing reality. You're basically getting at people for not being able to predict the future here.

Are you honestly saying that Jose isn't to blame for at least some of the 'dross' we've witnessed as football in the last 4-6 months? On the flipside, are you suggesting that the players aren't deserving of some praise for "2nd and an (almost) FA Cup, progression", or is that praise just Jose's to take?

I'm someone who has supported Jose, who feels he gets a hard time from the media and a minority of United fans who will just never warm to him, someone who has confidence in him for a third season, but also someone who has qualms about his second season.

Respect Drumpot, but it's comments like the first sentence of the bolded above, the 'I see the hyperbole is out in full force' from earlier, the likes of what brinty said that adox responded to, all the snide shíte from otherwise good posters, which puts people off posting some thought-out criticism of Jose.

The players have been poor this season, but that has been well discussed at this point by both fans and even the manager. It seems that the players are fair game for any level or harshness of criticism, but Jose isn't. At the same time, it's like the manager is exclusively deserving of all praise for progression and achievements, but most of the players who achieved this can be slated and/or fúcked out in the Summer.

I agree with many of your points generally in here, but trying to shutdown most of the criticism of the manager is not something I agree with. Intentional or not, it seems to be creeping in a lot more lately that if you criticise Jose, you are shouted down or don't know your arse from your elbows.

Whether I agree with certain criticisms of Jose or not, I do not agree with shutting it all down. Players and managers have their part to play for both the season's highs and lows, what has been a mixed season with shades of gray, and we should be able to discuss it now that it's over.

Who is shutting down discussion ? All I can see is people commenting more on the people who disagree with them then actually engaging in the counter points being made . . I have posted quite extensive posts on my views and people have picked out selective snippets and ignored everything that doesn't suit whatever viewpoint they want to push. You have done this very thing Stu, taking one paragraph out of multiple posts and posted it as if everything else I have said is invalid. Its a very poor form of discrediting fair questions.

And as for putting everybody in the same bracket, where have I said the brand of football is good/entertaining/acceptable? Where have I said Jose should be above question ? Where have I said I am enjoying where the club is going ? People answer my questions or posts with random statements that bear no resemblance to anything I am saying.

I have asked several straight forward questions that nobody seems interested in answering because people don't want to discuss it. So lets not pretend Stu that the people whinging about Jose are innocently getting attacked after carefully considering all views.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Perhaps I missed your posts where you had a counter balance to your negative narrative on Jose so maybe this will help us clear up this understanding:

1. What have been the positives you have taken from the season ?
2. What season do you feel where the team closest to challenging for the league since SAF retired ? Please elaborate.
3. Why do you feel Jose was able to win top honour's at every other club but United ? If you think he is "past it" do you accept that that there is a strong chance that he is not "past it"?
4. Do you accept that the issues of the squad/team may not be down mainly to the manager ?
5. What role/responsibility do you feel the owners/CEO have played in the state of the club since they took on more responsibilities when Gill/SAF left ?
6. How do you feel Man City's spending (more then 30% more most seasons) will affect any United managers ability to challenge for the top trophies?
7. How do you feel Man City's spending will affect a United manager getting their target if both clubs are after the same player ?
8. Do you think the United manager chooses what players are signed or that they are involved on a lesser capacity but do get some input.
9. Do you think the club ever signs players for reasons other then enhancing the squad? (marketing, opportunistic, cock up by Woodward)

Very straight forward questions. I am genuinely interested to see how you think about these things. You can ask me anything on Jose, I don't mind qualifying my opinions. .

All the other "Jose out" brigade are welcome to address these questions aswell.

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Great post.

Zeek12 wrote: »

Thanks for this articulate and well written post.

Many posters here have simply voiced their concerns at what we're seeing - but that doesn't make us hysterical Jose haters by default.

So you are desperate to just engage in debate about the club but don't think any of the questions I asked are worth addressing?

Lord TSC wrote: »

Tbh, this has been an issue in this thread for years. Everything operates on a binary, either "class" or "disaster". There's zero room for a spectrum....

I'm wasting my time aren't I ?

deaddonkey15

Drumpot wrote: »

Who is shutting down discussion ? All I can see is people commenting more on the people who disagree with them then actually engaging in the counter points being made . . I have posted quite extensive posts on my views and people have picked out selective snippets and ignored everything that doesn't suit whatever viewpoint they want to push. You have done this very thing Stu, taking one paragraph out of multiple posts and posted it as if everything else I have said is invalid. Its a very poor form of discrediting fair questions.

You've done the exact same thing already today, and even in this very paragraph

pjohnson

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Pogba needs to answer for himself too tho. Jose didn't tell him to miss a sitter of a header yesterday.

This is one of my annoyances recently. The idea that Jose's coaching is solely to blame for the rubbish end of season. Or how he isn't catering to Pogba/Martials needs.

As much as we dont seem to have any focal point without Lukaku (which is blatantly obvious) and he should obviously have developed an alternative once Ibra left. The fact is Pogba completely missing a free header or Martial attempting a cross only to send it about 2ft high and wide of the near post or Jones diving in stupidly all are nothing to do with Jose imo. There have been so many just fundamental basic errors from players that have to be put on them. Jose isnt telling them to do these moronic things. In the heat of the moment with a decision to make their instinct is to make the wrong decision.

deaddonkey15

Drumpot wrote: »

So you are desperate to just engage in debate about the club but don't think any of the questions I asked are worth addressing?

I've been posting my honest thoughts on the club and the team and the manager(s) here for years like other good posters. I'm not going to fill out a f*cking questionnaire for you.

Comic Book Guy

castletownman wrote: »

Valencia could be rolled the ball into space, have time to compose himself, see the target of Megamind or an Easter Island Statue, and still manage to hit the heels of the first man.

A failed winger that couldn't handle the prwssure of the 7 jersey, who was converted into a full-back for his safety first approach and whose captaincy is an indictment of the legends that went before him.

His ever presence is the biggest issue to be addressed when compared to rivals.

Nice one, ya made the football365 mailbox.

GSPfan

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I'm not going to fill out a f*cking questionnaire for you.

Ha ha ha.

Regardless of who’s side I’m on in this debate I laughed out loud at the last line.

Cantona's Collars

Milan rumoured to have offered Fellaini a 3 year deal.

https://twitter.com/HLNinEngeland/status/998197734669774857

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

So you are desperate to just engage in debate about the club but don't think any of the questions I asked are worth addressing?


I'm wasting my time aren't I ?

Nobody's desperate. I'm simply trying to engage in a mature discussion.

I dont see how shoving a list of questions, written purely from your perspective, at every other poster - and demanding a detailed reply - can really engage us in a balanced discussion?

And by the way you addressed your questions to the "Jose out" brigade. So I'm not your target audience. I dont belong to any brigade

If you read my posts today, you'll see I'm simply a concerned fan who has genuine worries about the team and have just aired my views on that.

I have already given Jose credit for Champs. League qualification and for our record against the top four. I'd like to think my opinion is balanced

Constructive criticism of the manager should not be shouted down like this

Drumpot

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I've been posting my honest thoughts on the club and the team and the manager(s) here for years like other good posters. I'm not going to fill out a f*cking questionnaire for you.

I can’t say that I’m surprised you don’t want to answer the questions....

deaddonkey15

Drumpot wrote: »

I can’t say that I’m surprised you don’t want to answer the questions....

Nice try.

GSPfan

How many of you here manage people in your work life?

The reason I ask is because I do, and as much as I would like to think they are all grown ups who should motivate and regulate themselves they simply don’t. You have to constantly push them in the right direction, pull them back into line, praise them when you think they need it and bollock them also. They all have personal lives which interfere with work life but you try to create an environment that they want to be in so that it doesn’t become a place they hate. As a manager you can literally sometimes feel like you do nothing when it’s all working well but it feels like you are only a moment away from the place erupting into chaos. To blame higher management for not listening to your staffing problems or to blame competitors for doing better than you is pointless as you are there to do one thing and that is to manage the people at your disposal to get the best out of them with the resources/time/circumstances you find yourself with.

If you do manage people and you agree with my assessment above then can this be applied to a football manager? If so, then is Jose getting the best out of the people he has if you strip away the excuses of Owners/CEO’s or other clubs being amazing?

Drumpot

Zeek12 wrote: »

Nobody's desperate. I'm simply trying to engage in a mature discussion.

I dont see how shoving a list of questions, written purely from your perspective, at every other poster - and demanding a detailed reply - can really engage us in a balanced discussion?

And by the way you addressed your questions to the "Jose out" brigade. So I'm not your target audience. I dont belong to any brigade

If you read my posts today, you'll see I'm simply a concerned fan who has genuine worries about the team and have just aired my views on that.

I have already given Jose credit for Champs. League qualification and for our record against the top four. I'd like to think my opinion is balanced

Constructive criticism of the manager should not be shouted down like this

It works both ways Zerks... I’m happy to answer any questions people want to pose to me as I don’t feel Jose has been perfect and don’t disagree with a lot of the disappointment people are posting.

I posted a list of questions that I personally factor in when trying to decide how Jose has performed. If you judge him on selective criteria alone then fine , just say it, don’t dismisss a relevant question cause it doesn’t suit the agenda you want to push.

One thing I Will say is that I need to stop using language that is insulting to others. For one it’s not conducive to meaningful discussions and for that I will try and regulate it. But another reason is that it allows people to ignore any relevant points made and look like they had somehow addressed these points.

Drumpot

GSPfan wrote: »

How many of you here manage people in your work life?

The reason I ask is because I do, and as much as I would like to think they are all grown ups who should motivate and regulate themselves they simply don’t. You have to constantly push them in the right direction, pull them back into line, praise them when you think they need it and bollock them also. They all have personal lives which interfere with work life but you try to create an environment that they want to be in so that it doesn’t become a place they hate. As a manager you can literally sometimes feel like you do nothing when it’s all working well but it feels like you are only a moment away from the place erupting into chaos. To blame higher management for not listening to your staffing problems or to blame competitors for doing better than you is pointless as you are there to do one thing and that is to manage the people at your disposal to get the best out of them with the resources/time/circumstances you find yourself with.

If you do manage people and you agree with my assessment above then can this be applied to a football manager? If so, then is Jose getting the best out of the people he has if you strip away the excuses of Owners/CEO’s or other clubs being amazing?

You mean like when I said:

Drumpot wrote: »

you can say that the manager has struggled to get the squad he has to perform well in games against weaker teams.

redzerdrog

There is no way jose is getting anywhere near the best out of pogba, martial, rashford or Sanchez but similar to how most teams set up to get the best out of there best/world class player, Jose definitely does this with DDG

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

It works both ways Zerks... I’m happy to answer any questions people want to pose to me as I don’t feel Jose has been perfect and don’t disagree with a lot of the disappointment people are posting.

I posted a list of questions that I personally factor in when trying to decide how Jose has performed. If you judge him on selective criteria alone then fine , just say it, don’t dismisss a relevant question cause it doesn’t suit the agenda you want to push.

One thing I Will say is that I need to stop using language that is insulting to others. For one it’s not conducive to meaningful discussions and for that I will try and regulate it. But another reason is that it allows people to ignore any relevant points made and look like they had somehow addressed these points.

Thanks for that. I think we can all agree we're all supporting the same team here

Please remember I didn't dismiss your questions.
You addressed those to the Jose-Out brigade and I'm not part of that.

I don't use selective criteria. I'm capable of praising the manager when deserved and have done so at times this season.

I also believe he has to be accountable for many of the things that are going wrong on his watch.

Given the nature of yesterday's performance at Wembley I think its understandable there will be criticism leveled at him today and its not all undeserved by any means

bucketybuck

GSPfan wrote: »

If you do manage people and you agree with my assessment above then can this be applied to a football manager? If so, then is Jose getting the best out of the people he has if you strip away the excuses of Owners/CEO’s or other clubs being amazing?

A lot of people will tell you that he is not, that the squad is full of brilliant players who have proven themselves to be worthy of trust and that he is holding them back.

I would say this though, think back to Van Gaals time at the club (oh how soon that has been forgotten). He also had a bunch of unreliable, inconsistent players, in a lot of cases the exact same players in fact. Where did Van Gaal finish? How did he do? How did Moyes do?

Say there is a squad of players who for five years have flattered to deceive, who have proven themselves to be a 5/6th placed team that regularly produced some of the worst football seen in decades. Then under a new manager they win a European trophy and finish 2nd in the league.

That being the case I would have to ask this, how can you not credit the manager with getting more out of that group of players than his predecessors?

Andrew Beef

For those people who want Jose out, who would you like to see replace him?

fatherted1969

The greatest gift that Roy Keane ever had was his ability to make the team around him playing better by just being on the field. I look at that team now and I struggle to see one player that's willing to drive those players. Lack of leadership is abysmal in that side.

redzerdrog

redzerdrog wrote: »

There is no way jose is getting anywhere near the best out of pogba, martial, rashford or Sanchez but similar to how most teams set up to get the best out of there best/world class player, Jose definitely does this with DDG

He has tried a lot with Pogba, even changing the formation to try get the best out of him. When your world record signing cant do the basics your asking him its hard to know what can be done. Look at augero when Pep first joined he wouldnt do what was required of him defensively and he was dropped untill he started doing the job the manager asked of him and he is arguably the best striker to ever play for ye

Robson99

fatherted1969 wrote: »

The greatest gift that Roy Keane ever had was his ability to make the team around him playing better by just being on the field. I look at that team now and I struggle to see one player that's willing to drive those players. Lack of leadership is abysmal in that side.

This is also a serious problem. We have no Robson, Keane, Ince, Bruce in our team to lead by example. Badly lacking a midfield player to drive us. Matic while a good player wouldn't lace Robson, Ince or Keane boots. We need someone on the pitch to dish out bollockings when needed

GSPfan

Andrew Beef wrote: »

For those people who want Jose out, who would you like to see replace him?

Well that’s the problem but I’ve come to think that if that is a reason to keep a manager then it must mean something is seriously wrong.

I’d say Pochettino would rank high in the list of possibilities names but straight away people will claim he has done nothing to prove he can do it etc. etc. and we get the same argument going around for over a year now.

Zeek12

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would say this though, think back to Van Gaals time at the club (oh how soon that has been forgotten). He also had a bunch of unreliable, inconsistent players, in a lot of cases the exact same players in fact. Where did Van Gaal finish? How did he do? How did Moyes do?

Say there is a squad of players who for five years have flattered to deceive, who have proven themselves to be a 5/6th placed team that regularly produced some of the worst football seen in decades. Then under a new manager they win a European trophy and finish 2nd in the league.

That being the case I would have to ask this, how can you not credit the manager with getting more out of that group of players than his predecessors?

I'm not sure you can really compare the two groups like that.

Yes some players are still there. But guys like Jones and Young weren't starting regularly under LVG.

Smalling has actually regressed terribly over the last two seasons. Was one of our most consistent defenders two years ago.

Mourinho has spent give or take 300 million in two seasons.

Difficult to say that the progression has been in keeping with the investment.

Not that I was a big LVG fan....but we're simply not getting our big players to perform. And many of these were signed by the current manager

Zeek12

Robson99 wrote: »

This is also a serious problem. We have no Robson, Keane, Ince, Bruce in our team to lead by example. Badly lacking a midfield player to drive us. Matic while a good player wouldn't lace Robson, Ince or Keane boots. We need someone on the pitch to dish out bollockings when needed

Same problem in defence. We have no leadership.
Jones' suicide tackle yesterday illustrates this problem and was the turning point in an otherwise very tight game.

Really hope we cut our losses on a few of these average defenders and focus on getting a real top class centre back this summer.

Alderweireld has been mentioned a few times. We need someone like that.

GSPfan

bucketybuck wrote: »

A lot of people will tell you that he is not, that the squad is full of brilliant players who have proven themselves to be worthy of trust and that he is holding them back.

I would say this though, think back to Van Gaals time at the club (oh how soon that has been forgotten). He also had a bunch of unreliable, inconsistent players, in a lot of cases the exact same players in fact. Where did Van Gaal finish? How did he do? How did Moyes do?

Say there is a squad of players who for five years have flattered to deceive, who have proven themselves to be a 5/6th placed team that regularly produced some of the worst football seen in decades. Then under a new manager they win a European trophy and finish 2nd in the league.

That being the case I would have to ask this, how can you not credit the manager with getting more out of that group of players than his predecessors?

That question is flawed. It is not the same group of players as under LVG or Moyes. There are large parts that are but it’s not the same group. It’s not quite apples and oranges but probably more like comparing apples with pears. He has had 3 windows to change the team so if the group is still underachieving then he has to take flack for not improving it.

Zeek12

Zeek12 wrote: »

I'm not sure you can really compare the two groups like that.

Yes some players are still there. But guys like Jones and Young weren't starting regularly under LVG.

Smalling has actually regressed terribly over the last two seasons. Was one of our most consistent defenders two years ago.

Mourinho has spent give or take 300 million in two seasons.

Difficult to say that the progression has been in keeping with the investment.

Not that I was a big LVG fan....but we're simply not getting our big players to perform. And many of these were signed by the current manager

Jose has addressed or at least tried to address the positions at the club that needed to be.

For years we have been giving out the midfield before he came and while it unfortunately isn't sorted it isnt the main talking point anymore.

We needed a striker he got Ibra then Lukaku and has tried with cbs, I thought we were onto a winner with Bailly but dont know whats happened there.

He did the similar at chelsea the last time he took the job bringing Costa and Fabregas in both who worked out very well in thier title winning season.

Now I know this should be the minimum requirement of a manager but how many years have United gone into a season without the major squad deficiencies unaddressed.

Whatever Jose does on pitch football wise I'm positive he will have improved the squad imeasurably by the time he leaves and its exactly what we needed after the 2 big failures that were Moyes and LVG (although some of Moyes can be attributed to woodward being inexperienced in his job at the time)

Zeek12

Deleted User wrote: »

Jose has addressed or at least tried to address the positions at the club that needed to be.

For years we have been giving out the midfield before he came and while it unfortunately isn't sorted it isnt the main talking point anymore.

We needed a striker he got Ibra then Lukaku and has tried with cbs, I thought we were onto a winner with Bailly but dont know whats happened there.

He did the similar at chelsea the last time he took the job bringing Costa and Fabregas in both who worked out very well in thier title winning season.

Now I know this should be the minimum requirement of a manager but how many years have United gone into a season without the major squad deficiencies unaddressed.

Whatever Jose does on pitch football wise I'm positive he will have improved the squad imeasurably by the time he leaves and its exactly what we needed after the 2 big failures that were Moyes and LVG (although some of Moyes can be attributed to woodward being inexperienced in his job at the time)

Can't agree that the midfield is even close to addressed.

Yes Matic has done reasonably well - but he was effectively just a replacement for Carrick. So no real advance there.

Pogba is terribly inconsistent and wont carry the midfield without quality players around him. Can anyone say this was 90 million well spent?

So that leaves Herrera Mata and Fellaini - who have all been there for 3/4 years anyway.

Our forward options are pretty decent, agree that Ibra and Lukaku both did well. On limited service from midfield and the flanks.

CB is a problem.
Would have to argue his centre back signings haven't been a success

GSPfan

Got to agree with Zeek.

The fact the midfield is no longer the top priority is only true because the defense has fallen badly. We need 3 first team regulars now at RB, CB, and LB.

It’s partly why I’m praying for an overhaul of about 8 players this Summer. 4 or 5 first team starters and 3 or 4 pushing for starts.

Zeek12

Zeek12 wrote: »

Can't agree that the midfield is even close to addressed.

Yes Matic has done reasonably well - but he was effectively just a replacement for Carrick. So no real advance there.

Pogba is terribly inconsistent and wont carry the midfield without quality players around him. Can anyone say this was 90 million well spent?

So that leaves Herrera Mata and Fellaini - who have all been there for 3/4 years anyway.

Our forward options are pretty decent, agree that Ibra and Lukaku both did well. On limited service from midfield and the flanks.

CB is a problem.
Would have to argue his centre back signings haven't been a success

I think the midfield is a lot closer to being addressed then it has been in a long time we have had at least 2 main stays in the team most of the time. Obviously it can be very easily argued that Pogba hasn't worked out for his fee but there wasn't many complaining about the signing before it happened.

Transfers are a tricky business over what makes one work out over another, you have seen with United its not a simple matter of throwing money at it as all our big signings haven't worked out. My main point is Jose is at the very least trying to get in the right players the team needs.

The only transfer strategy that really works out 100% is Citys throwing as much oil money as neeeded at a position untill it finally hits.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Got to agree with Zeek.

The fact the midfield is no longer the top priority is only true because the defense has fallen badly. We need 3 first team regulars now at RB, CB, and LB.

It’s partly why I’m praying for an overhaul of about 8 players this Summer. 4 or 5 first team starters and 3 or 4 pushing for starts.

So you think the backline has gotten worse even though its pretty much the same backline for many a years or has your expectations risen as tbh them players dont look any worse to me.

KH25

No update on Sandro so? Thought all the stories said it would be announced after the FA cup. I guess they didn’t mention how long after...

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you think the backline has gotten worse even though its pretty much the same backline for many a years or has your expectations risen as tbh them players dont look any worse to me.

Really?

So the fact Valencia and Young are getting close to retirement age isn’t a problem even though we seemingly are looking to sell Darmian and Shaw?

So considering we play with inverted wingers now who spend all their time crowding the middle of the park with no RB/LB to bomb past them isn’t a problem for you?

Smalling?

Jones?

A seemingly out of favour always injured Bailly?

A seemingly untrusted Rojo?

A player who doesn’t seem to excel in Lindelof?

None of that worries you?

I know you think it’s unchanged so therefore the same but it’s not. Age catches up with players out of nowhere and Valencia and Young are decent players but they are in serious need of replacement before we get stuck with no cover and both of them get injured.

GSPfan

KH25 wrote: »

No update on Sandro so? Thought all the stories said it would be announced after the FA cup. I guess they didn’t mention how long after...

And these stories are normally so accurate!

I’ll at least give it until the pre season tour before I start worrying.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Really?

So the fact Valencia and Young are getting close to retirement age isn’t a problem even though we seemingly are looking to sell Darmian and Shaw?

So considering we play with inverted wingers now who spend all their time crowding the middle of the park with no RB/LB to bomb past them isn’t a problem for you?

Smalling?

Jones?

A seemingly out of favour always injured Bailly?

A seemingly untrusted Rojo?

A player who doesn’t seem to excel in Lindelof?

None of that worries you?

I know you think it’s unchanged so therefore the same but it’s not. Age catches up with players out of nowhere and Valencia and Young are decent players but they are in serious need of replacement before we get stuck with no cover and both of them get injured.

I didnt say, it didnt worry me or didnt need top be improved on.

You said the defence has gotten worse and thats why the midfield looks better I'm saying it doesn't look any worse to me it looks pretty much the same. Young and Valencias age didnt show this season, I do think Valencia lost a bit of pace this season or else was carrying an injury

adox

I really don’t think it’s either or. I’ve been hugely critical of the players throughout the last couple of seasons but that doesn’t ultimately absolve Jose from any blame.

The seasons over and it’s a good time to take stock and voice opinions.

I hold Jose ultimately responsible for the failure in Europe. It’s was obvious to me at least that his cowardice cost us the chance to progress.

I think he has improved things from Van Gaals time but that isn’t much of an achievement. Van Gaal was a disaster for the club. Jose has spent hundreds of millions on players so an improvement was expected.

We won two cup competitions last season which was fanstatsic and what we were all hoping would happen under Jose. It made up for the really poor league campaign which actually saw us finish off worse than we did under Van Gaal.

This season we have won nothing and finished second. Second is a fantastic achievement no matter what way you look at it. I actually have to pinch myself to remind myself that we did indeed finish runners up.

The second place can be used as a very strong argument for ultimate progress under Jose, significant progress. However, for me, if I look at it more closely and give my amateur analysis of the season and where the club is going, I am very worried that we have stagnated developement wise. The really poor performances have become more and more regular. The exciting, dominant performances less and less so.

There seems to be no plan or evolvement. We seem to be staggering our way through fixtures. No matter how poor the opposition we seem to stoop to their level.

The football is awful. That’s nothing to do with looking at Pep or Klopp or whoever you want to use to dismiss those that air concern on the football. It’s just awful for the most part. A snooze fest. Who do we hold responsible for this? The players? Absolutely yes from me. I couldn’t care less about the vast majority of them and they don’t really deserve to wear the shirt. Their attitude and application skinks to the night heavens. But I also hold Jose responsible. He is overseeing this. He has had two seasons and I don’t see sufficiant progress to have trust in him going forward.

I was one of his most vocal supporters when he was signed and defended him to the hilt but I think he has ran his course at the club and has ultimately not done what we hoped.

Who would I put forward as a replacement? No ****ing idea. But that doesn’t mean I cantvoice the opinion that I think Jose may be done.

It’s the most pessimistic I’ve been about th club since Fergie left. I’d like to see the club do some real forward thinking and ultimately look past the second place as the only barometer to judge Jose on and honestly consider if they want to hand over another £150 million + to Jose to what will be, most likely a hit or bust season.

Despite our second place, I think the club is a bit of a mess.

The_Kew_Tour

Didn't even feel hurt yesterday.

This team has me scratching my head and if honest been turned off by some of these players.

Pathetic stuff yesterday

Zeek12

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the midfield is a lot closer to being addressed then it has been in a long time we have had at least 2 main stays in the team most of the time. Obviously it can be very easily argued that Pogba hasn't worked out for his fee but there wasn't many complaining about the signing before it happened.

Transfers are a tricky business over what makes one work out over another, you have seen with United its not a simple matter of throwing money at it as all our big signings haven't worked out. My main point is Jose is at the very least trying to get in the right players the team needs.

The only transfer strategy that really works out 100% is Citys throwing as much oil money as neeeded at a position untill it finally hits.

It's a bit more nuanced than that.

Pogba on his own was unlikely to solve our midfield issues. Even if he was playing at a consistent level.
At Juve he had Pirlo and Vidal alongside him.

So why blow so much money on one player?
Definitely agree with you that its not a matter of just throwing money at it. This transfer proves that point completely.

We need to sign the right kind of players to get a balanced squad.

Pogba needs real quality around him in MF - so he's liberated to push on and support the attack. Which is his natural game.

Without that a player like Pogba is just a luxury we can ill afford.

And his performance level is really inconsistent anyway.
Mourinho will have to manage that and get more from him.

Agree with GPSfan on the defensive situation.
Many of these players are either regressing or ageing.

Very few if any of our defenders would get into any decent PL or European side.

Cantona's Collars

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Didn't even feel hurt yesterday.

This team has me scratching my head and if honest been turned off by some of these players.

Pathetic stuff yesterday

+1

I said yesterday evening that going on the previous few performances I was wondering how the team would suddenly turn it on for the final. They didn't and continued the mind numbing one dimensional stuff once more. I wasn't one bit surprised by the loss,as soon as Hazard scored there was an air of inevitability about the result.

Zeek12

Zeek12 wrote: »

It's a bit more nuanced than that.

Pogba on his own was unlikely to solve our midfield issues. Even if he was playing at a consistent level.
At Juve he had Pirlo and Vidal alongside him.

So why blow so much money on one player?
Definitely agree with you that its not a matter of just throwing money at it. This transfer proves that point completely.

We need to sign the right kind of players to get a balanced squad.

Pogba needs real quality around him in MF - so he's liberated to push on and support the attack. Which is his natural game.

Without that a player like Pogba is just a luxury we can ill afford.

And his performance level is really inconsistent anyway.
Mourinho will have to manage that and get more from him.

Agree with GPSfan on the defensive situation.
Many of these players are either regressing or ageing.

Very few if any of our defenders would get into any decent PL or European side.

At the start of the season we were going in with some combination of Pogba, herrera and Matic in most peoples minds not mind blowing but fairly balanced in terms of what you'd want from a midfield.

Herrera being one of our best players the year before it was hardly a bad call.

But his formed dropped off a cliff, Pogba has been poor and Fellaini while a good cover, isn't a natural replacement in the squad for either but he also got injured a bit as was Carrick all season.

Its pretty easy to say after the season is over what was wrong but looking back to the start of the season, were you worried about a combination of Matic, Herrera and Pobga working out badly?

re the defence im not seeing any worse performances or any more regulary from any of the players then they have been doing the last number of years

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

At the start of the season we were going in with some combination of Pogba, herrera and Matic in most peoples minds not mind blowing but fairly balanced in terms of what you'd want from a midfield.

Herrera being one of our best players the year before it was hardly a bad call.

But his formed dropped off a cliff, Pogba has been poor and Fellaini while a good cover, isn't a natural replacement in the squad for either but he also got injured a bit as was Carrick all season.

Its pretty easy to say after the season is over what was wrong but looking back to the start of the season, were you worried about a combination of Matic, Herrera and Pobga working out badly?

Start of the season was it not Matic & Pogba with Mkhitaryan @10? Mata right, Martial/Rashford left and Lukaku up top. When we started faffing about to "free" Pogba we lost some attacking impetus unless he was in a good mood. We were best without 3 in midfield.

And I'm not saying the defence doesn't need an overhaul i'm just not seeing the narrative it was way worse this season

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Start of the season was it not Matic & Pogba with Mkhitaryan @10? Mata right, Martial/Rashford left and Lukaku up top. When we started faffing about to "free" Pogba we lost some attacking impetus unless he was in a good mood. We were best without 3 in midfield.

Did Herera not start the season maybe I'm misremembering.

Although point still stands with Miki