Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

Cantona's Collars

Under Moyes, whine to the media.

Under LVG,whine to the media.

Under Jose,whine to the media.

Narrows it down to a certain few.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

I have to say, I don't agree with your sentiments on some of those things, but I applaud your conviction to reply and respect your opinions now that I can at least see the logic behind them.

I am kind of the opposite to you in that I actually didn't want Jose from the start. I don't think I have seen an awful lot that I didn't expect and feel personally feel he took over a United squad in a much worse state then Pep did at City. I suppose I didn't expect a huge amount from this season and targeted progress which I feel was achieved. Not the progress I would of hoped for, but I think on balance things are looking up. I think Liverpool and Citys escapades have soured the perception of the league improvements.

I feel Uniteds manager strategy has been all over the place. Hence my serious reservations about the owners and/or Woodward. I don't see any clear pattern of strategy in who is being made coach in terms of squad cohesion. Moyes - Long term - LVG - rebuild youth - Jose - Instant trophies . . What exactly are the owners thinking ? What sort of football did they expect with Jose in charge ? I cant understand why anybody is surprised at the brand of football. The individual player performances from certain players and disappointing progress is understandable but this "United way of playing" thing is a mystery to me once you make Jose manager.

In terms of signings, I don't think Woodward is sitting down and going "do you know what lets sign Pogba", I think the club has its own strategies and tries to match it up with whatever manager they have at the time. I don't think its a case of a manager saying "I want Pogba" but more a manager saying "we need to get players to strengthen here" and the club includes its own marketing priorities of players when its choosing targets. I don't think its simply Jose going "I want Pogba", but you have to ask if any manager is told the club is signing Pogba they are hardly going to say no!

In terms of spending, I suppose I feel that years of chronic underspending has finally caught up with the squad. SAF didn't complain because the funds weren't there as the club was servicing massive debt and he couldn't change it. What he did was absolutely remarkable under the circumstances. As to why SAF wouldn't publically come out against the owners, why would he ? He wanted to get the club back to the top and was obviously on board with their takeover cause they would not of purchased the club if he wasn't on their side. I have no doubt the glazers would not of bought the club without SAF support.

In terms of why would I support Jose now its because I suppose I believe a successful manager like Jose deserves more trust when I feel there is a massive question mark over the way the club is being run. I cant prove anything but nobody can fully explain why the club is doing so poor other then blaming manager after manager and I don't think its that simple. Afterall the owners aren't passive actors in the club. They are the ones choosing the managers and they are the ones involved in whatever the clubs transfer strategy is about.

In terms of Pep at United I don't disagree with you but that's why I feel the club has an unbalanced amount of forwards for the kind of style that Jose usually plays. I don't trust the people running the club and other then standing out of Gill and SAF way (who were there before they bought the club) I cant see any evidence that suggests they are good at running the club on the field.

If you asked me to summarise Jose's brand of football and strengths at all his clubs it would be effective, compact, disciplined, requiring strong characters in the middle of the spine and complimented with efficient counter attacking. Matic, Bailly and Lukaku sort of match those characteristic in my view. That is why I consider they "Jose players". When I look at the squad he took over I think it was clear he was going to have to make some massive changes and it required him to find the sort of characters he likes in his team. The likes of a Pogba or Sanchez are perfect last one or two pieces for a finely tuned team, but not necessarily for a team that's got so many deficiencies in so many areas.

This is why I think he needs to be afforded more time and patience, longer them normal. He inherited a squad that wasn't as strong as some people like to think and it wasn't filled with the kind of disciplined characters he works well with. I think the one thing I give credit to Woodward and the owners is that they are going to support him and give him time. That's why he looks so comfortable even in disappointment when he was always looking over his shoulder at Chelsea or Madrid. I also think its why he will have a go at the players , cause unlike Chelsea he will be supported over players while he steadies the ship. Again, this is one of the bits of credit I think I will give Woodward.

So how does this fit in with my "the club is involved with transfer picks"? Its a quid pro quo relationship. Jose is left to manage what he has and the club wont hold an axe over his head while they get into champions league and the club looks like its making progress. This makes total sense, so why would he come out and insult the people giving him the kind of time that he was seldom afforded at Madrid or Chelsea ?

This isn't suggesting the club do not want to win trophies. Jose was brought in for this very reason, but I think there are signs hes getting the squad into the shape he wants. For all the disappointing performances the team finished 2nd, its easy to see how if he gets the team functioning correctly that it points to bigger and better things. .

I would also like to say that I wouldn't mind a Klopp or a Poch at the club, I just wouldn't be confident that fans would be happy giving them the time they might need to get to the level of expectations that many United fans have. .

I agree that there are historic issues with Woodward and the general direction of United since Fergie left, though I don't think Gill was the football man people believe him to be. Gill never had to replace Fergie or steer the football side himself. In fact he was a part of the Moyes appointment wasn't he (and almost appointined SGE)

The differences between Moyes, LVG and Mourinho points to issues in the vision of the club, big style - and I do agree that if we sacked Mourinho in the morning that regardless of who I might think is the right appointment I have no idea what the club would do or what direction they would look at.

That doesn't change my opinion of the jonb Jose is doing with the players he has - his work with the players he has is not determined by the direction Woodward is pointing the club in.

I am personally very critical of Woodward and the Glazers, but I feel I can do that while also criticising Mourinho for his performance, and also the players. Everyone at the club is under performing - it all feeds into itself I suppose, and no one person is to blame - but my gut feeling is Jose is too cautious, and I don't think that will change.

Andrew Beef

The fans should back the manager. Underperforming players sniping against a manager is laughable.

Another poster suggested Seamus Coleman and Danny Rose, whilst another dismissed them. I think they’d be good options; people probably dismissed Kyle Walker, now look at him.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Under Moyes, whine to the media.

Under LVG,whine to the media.

Under Jose,whine to the media.

Narrows it down to a certain few.

Jessica Fletcher sh1t going on here

PhlegmyMoses

From the few bits I've seen of Savic, he reminds me of Pogba. I'm honestly not sure what signings would fix our issues the. Feels like some current players really need to step up before I'd be able to confidently suggest players to improve things.

How Soon Is Now

Club needs players that want to be there and it means something to them.

Its just become hard to know who wants it these days.

Unless its obvious with a player like Lingard.

When it comes to the likes of Pogba i do think United as a club means a lot to him hes been involved since he was very young and to come back after leaving shows he wants to be part of it. Theres obviously an issue between him and Jose. Hes starting to say little things in interviews like you dont have to be best friends with the boss ive had one person who wanted to change me etc etc.

At the same time though weather you like Mourinho or not hes a proven top level manager who knows what hes doing. If a player cant respect him he shouldn't be there. Hes given a number of players plenty of chances and changed the team for them yet it still seems they cant play to fit in with the current system and whats demanded of them.

Its very hard to know who and what is to blame when theres more then one issue at play here and its not as if its an isolated situation between the boss and one player.

J. Marston

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Club needs players that want to be there and it means something to them.

Its just become hard to know who wants it these days.

Unless its obvious with a player like Lingard.

When it comes to the likes of Pogba i do think United as a club means a lot to him hes been involved since he was very young and to come back after leaving shows he wants to be part of it. Theres obviously an issue between him and Jose. Hes starting to say little things in interviews like you dont have to be best friends with the boss ive had one person who wanted to change me etc etc.

At the same time though weather you like Mourinho or not hes a proven top level manager who knows what hes doing. If a player cant respect him he shouldn't be there. Hes given a number of players plenty of chances and changed the team for them yet it still seems they cant play to fit in with the current system and whats demanded of them.

Its very hard to know who and what is to blame when theres more then one issue at play here and its not as if its an isolated situation between the boss and one player.

The money means a lot to him. His media-trained soundbites are hollow and mean fúck all.

How Soon Is Now

J. Marston wrote: »

The money means a lot to him. His media-trained soundbites are hollow and mean fúck all.

Money talks ya but you can tell he has a good relationship with the club and a lot of the players and staff he started out with.

I personally think Pogba doesn't like being told what to do and wants to play a certain way but feels he cant with Jose there. I also feel its no fluke that Pogba excels when United are playing well and flying as a team. When **** hits the fan or the team has one of those days he more often then not goes missing.

United of years gone by where there was quality all over the pitch and the team played for each other and for the rep of the club and Pogba would be a legit superstar. Until we get our **** together consistently hes a luxury player thats not working. He needs everything to be going well around him before he starts to fly.

pjohnson

Oh Sunday World Journalists are worth a damn now?


Transfer Window is certainly open then!

PhlegmyMoses

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Money talks ya but you can tell he has a good relationship with the club and a lot of the players and staff he started out with.

I personally think Pogba doesn't like being told what to do and wants to play a certain way but feels he cant with Jose there. I also feel its no fluke that Pogba excels when United are playing well and flying as a team. When **** hits the fan or the team has one of those days he more often then not goes missing.

United of years gone by where there was quality all over the pitch and the team played for each other and for the rep of the club and Pogba would be a legit superstar. Until we get our **** together consistently hes a luxury player thats not working. He needs everything to be going well around him before he starts to fly.

If anybody was arsed to check my posts from when Pogba signed, I was saying that he was never going to be the silver bullet and was going to be under constant pressure because that type of transfer fee is normally reserved for players who can change the fortunes of their team through their presence alone (normally top end attackers).

He has always been a cherry on top kind of player who needs a full functioning unit to do his best work and that is being proven time and again this year. It's not his haircut or his Instagram account. It's not his dance floor in his basement and it's not even that he isn't arsed. It's that he isn't able. He isn't a big goalscorer, he isnt a game controller, he needs others to do what he can't.

I said the same thing when Thomas Muller was rumoured to come to us a few years ago, another cherry on top player who does his best work when the team is already doing well.

How Soon Is Now

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

If anybody was arsed to check my posts from when Pogba signed, I was saying that he was never going to be the silver bullet and was going to be under constant pressure because that type of transfer fee is normally reserved for players who can change the fortunes of their team through their presence alone (normally top end attackers).

He has always been a cherry on top kind of player who needs a full functioning unit to do his best work and that is being proven time and again this year. It's not his haircut or his Instagram account. It's not his dance floor in his basement and it's not even that he isn't arsed. It's that he isn't able. He isn't a big goalscorer, he isnt a game controller, he needs others to do what he can't.

I said the same thing when Thomas Muller was rumoured to come to us a few years ago, another cherry on top player who does his best work when the team is already doing well.

Incredibly frustrating considering the guy has massive ability and is psychically able to dominate at any given time.

Very annoying player to watch for United since he has rejoined because you see the potential there and you wonder why cant he keep it going whats wrong.

Mitch Connor

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Incredibly frustrating considering the guy has massive ability and is psychically able to dominate at any given time.

Very annoying player to watch for United since he has rejoined because you see the potential there and you wonder why cant he keep it going whats wrong.

he lacks intensity in his play - needs to demand the ball, drive with the ball and play at speed.

Watching him yesterday he was looking for the ball, but not putting himself in the position that demands he be given it - we need him to be buzzing around looking for the dangerous space.

Zeek12

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Incredibly frustrating considering the guy has massive ability and is psychically able to dominate at any given time.

Very annoying player to watch for United since he has rejoined because you see the potential there and you wonder why cant he keep it going whats wrong.

More than ever before in the modern game, its so important the players have a manager they believe in and trust.
Players have more choice than ever before. And they think short-term.
Agents have so much influence and will provoke transfers.

I dont want to repeat the Pep and Klopp points.....but those guys have clearly "won" their dressing rooms.
Look how much improvement we've seen from guys like Sterling, Aguero, Sane, Firmino, Robertson, etc.

In the modern era, if a player doesn't feel valued or appreciated they will manoeuvre a move eventually. And do very well financially from it.
Cynical it may be but its reality

The other point is - Pogba wont flourish in that midfield without better players around him and some decent fullbacks too.

That being said, there is a question about his hunger and attitude.

Drumpot

Zeek12 wrote: »

More than ever before in the modern game, its so important the players have a manager they believe in and trust.
Players have more choice than ever before. And they think short-term.
Agents have so much influence and will provoke transfers.

I dont want to repeat the Pep and Klopp points.....but those guys have clearly "won" their dressing rooms.
Look how much improvement we've seen from guys like Sterling, Aguero, Sane, Firmino, Robertson, etc.

In the modern era, if a player doesn't feel valued or appreciated they will manoeuvre a move eventually. And do very well financially from it.
Cynical it may be but its reality

The other point is - Pogba wont flourish in that midfield without better players around him and some decent fullbacks too.

That being said, there is a question about his hunger and attitude.

There’s truth in what you say. When SAF ran a tight ship there was no question who was in charge or who would be supported if there was a rift between manager and players. Since then it’s been fair game on all managers of the club.

But the fact that the same squad that won the league with SAF was willing to trash talk Moyes in the paper shows that there are two sides to this point. They feared Ferguson but didn’t fear Moyes or what would happen if they attacked him publicly. Since then all united managers had been fair game.

I think the Pogba v Jose thing is a very interesting dynamic that will show how far the club will support Jose. If Pogba was sold it certainly sends a message to the rest of the players that this club is back to being run by one person and if uo don’t like it you will have to move on.

There is a value in taking this approach even if it does mean that the club sells good quality or potential players. There is a chance that United could become Jose’s true spiritual home and that he would actually thrive and succeed like we know he has proven he can do...

Or he might have a meltdown and turn everybody against him and leave in a blaze of anarchy. Now you won’t get that sort of drama from Pep, Poch or Klopp , that’s for sure....

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

There’s truth in what you say. When SAF ran a tight ship there was no question who was in charge or who would be supported if there was a rift between manager and players. Since then it’s been fair game on all managers of the club.

But the fact that the same squad that won the league with SAF was willing to trash talk Moyes in the paper shows that there are two sides to this point. They feared Ferguson but didn’t fear Moyes or what would happen if they attacked him publicly. Since then all united managers had been fair game.

Yup.. the players definitely respected and trusted Fergie.

Couldn't say the same for Moyes.

Have they attacked Jose in the media?

Drumpot

Zeek12 wrote: »

Yup.. the players definitely respected and trusted Fergie.

Couldn't say the same for Moyes.

Have they attacked Jose in the media?

Actually I’m not sure they have directly. Jose gets such a hard time from the press and pundits it’s easy to get it mixed up!

Would some of them get their agents to leak stuff to tabloids? Like when agents say stuff that sort of sounds like a pop at the manager on some level! Or they allow stories to continue without properly addressing them....

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

Actually I’m not sure they have directly. Jose gets such a hard time from the press and pundits it’s easy to get it mixed up!

Would some of them get their agents to leak stuff to tabloids? Like when agents say stuff that sort of sounds like a pop at the manager on some level! Or they allow stories to continue without properly addressing them....

Well, I have little time for most agents and I think most fans are the same!

While selling Pogba might put down a marker, will it work out ?
It depends how much we'd get for him...and how well that's spent on our next transfer(s).

Mikhi was shipped out. That was Jose laying down a marker.
But Sanchez has been so poor, its hard to say that was a positive move.

The squad is terribly unbalanced and we need to get the transfers right this summer.

If a consensus is reached to sell Pogba, fair enough. Let's do it if we get a good price.
But let's not blow the funds on wildcards like Lindelof and Sanchez.

We need to be more selective and more professional in our transfer activity.

Drumpot

Zeek12 wrote: »

Well, I have little time for most agents and I think most fans are the same!

While selling Pogba might put down a marker, will it work out ?
It depends how much we'd get for him...and how well that's spent on our next transfer(s).

Mikhi was shipped out. That was Jose laying down a marker.
But Sanchez has been so poor, its hard to say that was a positive move.

The squad is terribly unbalanced and we need to get the transfers right this summer.

If a consensus is reached to sell Pogba, fair enough. Let's do it if we get a good price.
But let's not blow the funds on wildcards like Lindelof and Sanchez.

We need to be more selective and more professional in our transfer activity.

I still hope Pogba can be salvaged but it’s hard to see it right now . It’s hard to not feel like if Jose can iron out the issues (81 points is usually not that far off a title challange) that Pogba couldn’t thrive in a more effective side. Also think he could be a better player for Coming through a tough period on the right side.

The_Kew_Tour

This Day 10 years ago we won the European Cup in Moscow.

Sorry if that depresses people more.

Cantona's Collars

The morning back page of The Mirror.

"Jose to ask for £250 million to try to reel in City and fend off Liverpool.

Mourinho has informed Ed Woodward of his summer targets, which include Tottenham and Belgium centre-back Toby Alderweireld.
His midfield options include Shakhtar Donetsk’s Fred, Jorginho of Napoli and Nice’s Jean Michael Seri.
United are also weighing up a summer move for Real Madrid star Gareth Bale.
Daley Blind, Matteo Darmian, Luke Shaw and Anthony Martial are all set to be offloaded, with Marouane Fellaini also poised to leave on a free after failing to agree a new deal."

Cantona's Collars

Sarri looking like he's leaving Napoli with Chelsea being said to be his next club. Napoli played some damn good football under him.
Unless something changes next season our football will look even worse compared to the others in the top 6.

Zeek12

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This Day 10 years ago we won the European Cup in Moscow.

Sorry if that depresses people more.

Just had a look at the starting XI from that night.

Aside from great quality - the thing that really stands out is so many Leaders on the pitch

Vidic, Van der Sar, Scholes, Ferdinand, Carrick, Hargreaves

And Giggs, Fletcher and JOS on the bench.

No slacking in that dressing room that's for sure.

Good times indeed...

J. Marston

Reminiscing about the good old days and Liverpool are in a CL final.

Christ, this is the darkest timeline.

Zeek12

They were in CL Finals in 05 and 07 too.

And we haven't eaten our first born yet.:pac:
I wouldn't panic too much.

I'm more concerned about the direction our club is taking - than what's happening over there.

Reminiscing about 2008 isn't misplaced.

We can learn a lot from the way that team was assembled: the positive approach they took, the belief players had in the management and the strength of character that drove its success.

Trigger

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Sarri looking like he's leaving Napoli with Chelsea being said to be his next club. Napoli played some damn good football under him.
Unless something changes next season our football will look even worse compared to the others in the top 6.

Will be interesting to see how he gets on, especially with the media, he doesn’t have a note of English so there could be a lot of things lost in translation

brinty

Lads just having a think about this and wanted to know your thoughts. I do believe someone mentioned it over the weekend (re Valencia) but who would you appoint as club captain with Carrick now retiring. I really think Jose needs to get this decision right and put his stamp down on the team.

For me there are a three candidates
De Gea - Undoubtedly our best player since Ferguson has departed. The undoubted world class player our squad. However i don't advocate goalkeepers as captain because they're too far removed from the play
Matic - bit left field but one of the few automatic picks in the team. He's the controller of the team, plays in the middle of the pitch has Jose's undoubted trust and act's like a captain
Pogba - i know this might be the strangest decision out there but i think putting the armband on him might improve him. Its a declaration of you are our guy, we believe in you and now is the time to show who you. Look at what captaincy did for Keane he seemed to grow a few inches taller and focused his game to drive the team forward. He cut out/calmed down on the psycho man but still had it when needed. He found his voice and demanded more of his team mates

If Valencia is appointed club captain i'd honestly throw my hat at things. The man barely speaks English (to the press anyways). He does nothing to get at his team going and rally or drive them onward. You don't see him roaring a team mate out of it. Our back four is so unsettled I'd not name anyone of them a skipper and Lukaku is not a captain..

pjohnson

If we get Alderweireld put him straight as Captain.

rekluse

I’d give it to Matic. Big Dave deserves it on merit , but I was never a fan of having a keeper as captain.

Andrew Beef

It says a lot that candidates for the captaincy are thin on the ground

brinty

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It says a lot that candidates for the captaincy are thin on the ground

Not really beef..
Those were three candidates i would go for but we all know that Valencia and Smalling and possibly Jones too are also in the mix for it (regardless of what we all think of them)

Trigger

brinty wrote: »

Not really beef..
Those were three candidates i would go for but we all know that Valencia and Smalling and possibly Jones too are also in the mix for it (regardless of what we all think of them)

I’m surprised you left out Lukaku, seems to be very Vocal and a natural leader/lead by example type of player

Liam McPoyle

Matic as captain for me though Rom is a good shout, I'd give it to him in a couple of years instead as he is still young.

micks_address

astradave wrote: »

brinty wrote: »

Not really beef..
Those were three candidates i would go for but we all know that Valencia and Smalling and possibly Jones too are also in the mix for it (regardless of what we all think of them)

I’m surprised you left out Lukaku, seems to be very Vocal and a natural leader/lead by example type of player

I see talk of a 5 player clear out. Fellani, Shaw, Darmian, Martial with Carrick having retired. I think young is too old at this stage.. There's talk of Bale and a few more.. I never thought utd would contend while. Fellani remained at the club. The need more speed in transition in mid field.. While Matic and Mata are solid.. They are too slow in my opinion.. It'll be interesting summer.. Clubs might want to buy before World Cup as players might rise in price.. A few more will put on a good show and there till be a scramble to sign them.. Maybe if hazard is so annoyed at chelsea he might come.. Id like to see him in the team along with bale to add pace..

Liam McPoyle

micks_address wrote: »

I see talk of a 5 player clear out. Fellani, Shaw, Darmian, Martial with Carrick having retired. I think young is too old at this stage.. There's talk of Bale and a few more.. I never thought utd would contend while. Fellani remained at the club. The need more speed in transition in mid field.. While Matic and Mata are solid.. They are too slow in my opinion.. It'll be interesting summer.. Clubs might want to buy before World Cup as players might rise in price.. A few more will put on a good show and there till be a scramble to sign them.. Maybe if hazard is so annoyed at chelsea he might come.. Id like to see him in the team along with bale to add pace..

There is as much chance of Hazard signing for Jose is there is of me signing for Jose.

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

I’m surprised you left out Lukaku, seems to be very Vocal and a natural leader/lead by example type of player

Rom is actually a great shout.

micks_address

Business Cat wrote: »

micks_address wrote: »

I see talk of a 5 player clear out. Fellani, Shaw, Darmian, Martial with Carrick having retired. I think young is too old at this stage.. There's talk of Bale and a few more.. I never thought utd would contend while. Fellani remained at the club. The need more speed in transition in mid field.. While Matic and Mata are solid.. They are too slow in my opinion.. It'll be interesting summer.. Clubs might want to buy before World Cup as players might rise in price.. A few more will put on a good show and there till be a scramble to sign them.. Maybe if hazard is so annoyed at chelsea he might come.. Id like to see him in the team along with bale to add pace..

There is as much chance of Hazard signing for Jose is there is of me signing for Jose.

Are you any good?
The two conundrums at the moment are Pogba and Sanchez
. In theory both world class but floundering.. Is it because of the team around them and the way they playing? Can it be fixed by adding a defensive midfielder to free up Pogba.. In turn creat more chances? I had high hopes when sanchez arrived that he would be the perfect foil for lukaku, the big guy holding up and setting it up for him to score.. Both seem to have gone backwards since January..

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

This is condescending utter nonsense.

The absolute cheek of you calling people glory hunters who aren’t happy with the football on display.

Pathetic.

It's not great is it

How many players does pogba need before he starts performing it's crazy the amount of excuses that get made for him if he is a great player he should ge able to show it, without help from other players or formation changes.

micks_address

Deleted User wrote: »

How many players does pogba need before he starts performing it's crazy the amount of excuses that get made for him if he is a great player he should ge able to show it, without help from other players or formation changes.

I'd agree to certain extent.. If he's best as an attacking midfielder then getting bogged down in defending is holding him back.. Put a solid battler in there who let's him off them maybe he'd perform consistently.. Not convinced either way..

TheDoc

GSPfan wrote: »

How many of you here manage people in your work life?

The reason I ask is because I do, and as much as I would like to think they are all grown ups who should motivate and regulate themselves they simply don’t. You have to constantly push them in the right direction, pull them back into line, praise them when you think they need it and bollock them also. They all have personal lives which interfere with work life but you try to create an environment that they want to be in so that it doesn’t become a place they hate. As a manager you can literally sometimes feel like you do nothing when it’s all working well but it feels like you are only a moment away from the place erupting into chaos. To blame higher management for not listening to your staffing problems or to blame competitors for doing better than you is pointless as you are there to do one thing and that is to manage the people at your disposal to get the best out of them with the resources/time/circumstances you find yourself with.

If you do manage people and you agree with my assessment above then can this be applied to a football manager? If so, then is Jose getting the best out of the people he has if you strip away the excuses of Owners/CEO’s or other clubs being amazing?

I manage people, and I've also done in other roles in the past.

And you know what, even looking at my current team, I've been lumped with people who havn't a ****ing clue. I work in an old school environment and culture where IT used to be a dumping ground for people from other places in the company that were under performing or difficult, but they didn't want to pay off. I have someone who was demoted under a new org structure, yet pretends they are still a line manager, and constantly challenges my authority each and every day.

Yet I make it work, and we still perform. Because if I don't, the buck stops with me. They don't replace the entire department or teams, they replace the lead and the manager. It's how it works and how it always works.

I'd ****ing love to be able to just send two people packing and just go out and "buy" quality personal, but I can't. Wouldn't it be great if I could just brush off any critique that comes my way from my employers or peer managers, that my team are mentally weak. That they arn't good enough. Just absolve myself of all responsibility and ask what am I supposed to do with this lot, I didn't hire them, they arn't my staff and don't operate the way I do or have my mindset.

Nonsense, management 101 is utilising resources, to make a team more than the sum of its parts, to make everyone feel valued and give them a healthy environment to operate in, to achieve goals. It's why I find this idea laughable, and I include the likes of Pep in that. That it only works because they need a specific profile or character to manage, or it wont work.

I'm sorry but if you cant adapt and mange the diverse characters and people in life, your not a good manager. Period.

Mourinho is a classic example of a manager who isn't adapting and isn't morphing. His man management, one of his key strengths historically, is now his absolute prime weakness, it's so obvious.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

I manage people, and I've also done in other roles in the past.

And you know what, even looking at my current team, I've been lumped with people who havn't a ****ing clue. I work in an old school environment and culture where IT used to be a dumping ground for people from other places in the company that were under performing or difficult, but they didn't want to pay off. I have someone who was demoted under a new org structure, yet pretends they are still a line manager, and constantly challenges my authority each and every day.

Yet I make it work, and we still perform. Because if I don't, the buck stops with me. They don't replace the entire department or teams, they replace the lead and the manager. It's how it works and how it always works.

I'd ****ing love to be able to just send two people packing and just go out and "buy" quality personal, but I can't. Wouldn't it be great if I could just brush off any critique that comes my way from my employers or peer managers, that my team are mentally weak. That they arn't good enough. Just absolve myself of all responsibility and ask what am I supposed to do with this lot, I didn't hire them, they arn't my staff and don't operate the way I do or have my mindset.

Nonsense, management 101 is utilising resources, to make a team more than the sum of its parts, to make everyone feel valued and give them a healthy environment to operate in, to achieve goals. It's why I find this idea laughable, and I include the likes of Pep in that. That it only works because they need a specific profile or character to manage, or it wont work.

I'm sorry but if you cant adapt and mange the diverse characters and people in life, your not a good manager. Period.

Mourinho is a classic example of a manager who isn't adapting and isn't morphing. His man management, one of his key strengths historically, is now his absolute prime weakness, it's so obvious.

Jose imo hasnt evolved as a manager. He is still stuck in a period from 10 years ago

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

I'd agree to certain extent.. If he's best as an attacking midfielder then getting bogged down in defending is holding him back.. Put a solid battler in there who let's him off them maybe he'd perform consistently.. Not convinced either way..

I didnt mean to have a go ive just seen it said so often pogba just needs x y or z and he will start performing, i mean he is doing no part of the game well on a consistent basis, if he was class in an attacking sense people could forgive his laziness in defence but you dont even get that much from him, hell some games he has struggled with the simplest of passes.

After 2 years id expect more from soneone lauded as world class no matter what state ghe team was in

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

great post

You know thinking this morning, of all the top 4-5, I think we are by far the most worrying setup and could be labelled the current "Crisis" club. It's a tough word to use, but I'd imagine there is a lot of stock to be taken over the course of the next few weeks, and there is very much uncertainty about where we are going or what we are doing.

We arn't in that situation of "1 to 3 signings" territory. Our team is a mess. Confidence in the swanny. As one of the lads joked on Saturday De Gea has maintained his form throughout because hes the one person the manager doesn't coach or deal with in training

Even Arsenal are in positive mood with the wonder of a new regime and era for the first time in two decades.

Our manager needs an absolute serious look in the mirror over the summer to realise he needs to change, of this could all implode before Christmas next season.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/998489108132651009

Sky: "United interested in signing Willian"

threein99

The first Sky Sources transfer lies of the summer:

BREAKING NEWS

Manchester United are interested in signing Willian from Chelsea this summer.

Sky Sports News understands Willian wants to leave Stamford Bridge this summer if Antonio Conte remains as manager.

At this stage, there’s been no formal offer to Chelsea from United. The player has two years remaining on his contract at Stamford Bridge.

bucketybuck

brinty wrote: »

Pogba - i know this might be the strangest decision out there but i think putting the armband on him might improve him. Its a declaration of you are our guy, we believe in you and now is the time to show who you. Look at what captaincy did for Keane he seemed to grow a few inches taller and focused his game to drive the team forward. He cut out/calmed down on the psycho man but still had it when needed. He found his voice and demanded more of his team mates

It would be the absolute worst thing you could do, Pogba doesn't want the responsibility and he would shrivel under the weight of it. He is the last person going to step up and put in the extra effort it would take to improve the players around him.

Pogba wants Mourinho to get sacked and a manager to come in who will allow him to float about and do whatever the **** he wants, thats his dream and he is happy to mope about until it happens. I would wager he has zero interest in taking any captaincy role and would do a piss poor job if he got it.

Andrew Beef

Willian would be a good signing.

I wouldn’t have thought that Lukaku would be a candidate for the captaincy; he is a class act, but I don’t think he’s vocal enough; in fact, I’d go as far to say that he’s shy.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

You know thinking this morning, of all the top 4-5, I think we are by far the most worrying setup and could be labelled the current "Crisis" club. It's a tough word to use, but I'd imagine there is a lot of stock to be taken over the course of the next few weeks, and there is very much uncertainty about where we are going or what we are doing.

We arn't in that situation of "1 to 3 signings" territory. Our team is a mess. Confidence in the swanny. As one of the lads joked on Saturday De Gea has maintained his form throughout because hes the one person the manager doesn't coach or deal with in training

Even Arsenal are in positive mood with the wonder of a new regime and era for the first time in two decades.

Our manager needs an absolute serious look in the mirror over the summer to realise he needs to change, of this could all implode before Christmas next season.

Absolute nonsense trying to pedal that sorry but it is.

TheDoc

brinty wrote: »

Lads just having a think about this and wanted to know your thoughts. I do believe someone mentioned it over the weekend (re Valencia) but who would you appoint as club captain with Carrick now retiring. I really think Jose needs to get this decision right and put his stamp down on the team.

For me there are a three candidates
De Gea - Undoubtedly our best player since Ferguson has departed. The undoubted world class player our squad. However i don't advocate goalkeepers as captain because they're too far removed from the play
Matic - bit left field but one of the few automatic picks in the team. He's the controller of the team, plays in the middle of the pitch has Jose's undoubted trust and act's like a captain
Pogba - i know this might be the strangest decision out there but i think putting the armband on him might improve him. Its a declaration of you are our guy, we believe in you and now is the time to show who you. Look at what captaincy did for Keane he seemed to grow a few inches taller and focused his game to drive the team forward. He cut out/calmed down on the psycho man but still had it when needed. He found his voice and demanded more of his team mates

If Valencia is appointed club captain i'd honestly throw my hat at things. The man barely speaks English (to the press anyways). He does nothing to get at his team going and rally or drive them onward. You don't see him roaring a team mate out of it. Our back four is so unsettled I'd not name anyone of them a skipper and Lukaku is not a captain..

I'd go Pogba.

Apply that pressure on him to lead and be the leader he can be (even talking it up himself over the last week ahead of WC with France). Have him know that armband still means something at this club, that you lead by example. Force him to mature, apply that pressure of responsibility and see if it weighs heavy, or if he thrives.

Bury the hatchet of issues between himself and the manager. Work better, work closer. Have a conduit between the team and the manager.

And if it still goes pete tong well then everyone knows where they stand.

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

How many players does pogba need before he starts performing it's crazy the amount of excuses that get made for him if he is a great player he should ge able to show it, without help from other players or formation changes.

This is just the crux of this debate.

It's either:

The manager has catered for his ever need and the player is not performing or good enough.

The manager is not managing him properly and providing him a platform to perform so it's not his fault.

Or a bit of both.

I've been mostly the later, but leaning more on issue with the manager. I'm sorry but no one is convincing me "Paul Pogba" is not good enough. He was a world class talent before he arrived, and he can be a world class player in the right environment.

Considering there is about 2-3 players in this entire squad performing to a good level this system, while the focus on Pogba is obvious due to his fee, it should be very clear the majority burden is on the manager.