Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

threein99

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd go Pogba.

Apply that pressure on him to lead and be the leader he can be (even talking it up himself over the last week ahead of WC with France). Have him know that armband still means something at this club, that you lead by example. Force him to mature, apply that pressure of responsibility and see if it weighs heavy, or if he thrives.

Bury the hatchet of issues between himself and the manager. Work better, work closer. Have a conduit between the team and the manager.

And if it still goes pete tong well then everyone knows where they stand.

Would he get a C shaved into hair ? (C for Captain)

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolute nonsense trying to pedal that sorry but it is.

The positives people would label as being positives, are not positives for me.

I'm sorry but I'm really not buying "second" as being some massive achievement considering how far behind City we were, and that the start of the season form was clearly a freak, and not the mean for the team.

If we didn't have that start of season spell, we might have even finished 3rd or 4th.

This is the problem with Jose, when your not winning trophies, there is pretty much **** all else to fall back on.

I doubt rival fans could or are having as much indepth discussion about the issue being players or the manager, as we will have. And I don't think there is any other rival that has as much question marks over as many players in the squad as we have.

I'm not pedalling anything, I'm here to express my views and opinions, I'm not here to convert anyone nor have I ever been. You either agree with me and take solace that your not alone in your thoughts, or you disagree with me and want to thrash it out. The epicentre of fandom

Andrew Beef

It would send out the wrong message to appoint Pogba captain.

I think that the captain should be Jose’s first choice centre-half for next season, and only he knows who that is.

So Smalling, Jones, Bailly, or perhaps someone who’s at Spurs currently...

jayo26

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Willian would be a good signing.

I wouldn’t have thought that Lukaku would be a candidate for the captaincy; he is a class act, but I don’t think he’s vocal enough; in fact, I’d go as far to say that he’s shy.

Lukaku is one of the most vocal players on the pitch if you ever get a chance to see him play live he spends the entire 90 minutes shouting and trying to get to players to play balls where he wants them and isn't afraid to have a go at his team mates either.

There was a game a month or so back where martial missed an opportunity to play lukaku in and a few minutes later at half time all the players went walking off towards the tunnel and lukaku went over to martial and you could clearly see him trying to explain what he did wrong.

I was at the Swansea game and you could see him on the pitch in the second half trying to get the midfield to take the finger out and start running.

I would 100 percent be behind Lukaku he is a natural leader I'm sure there is more then what I outlined to been a club captain but I'd have no worries about lukaku been vocal bloody Valencia would be the worst choice of caprain for years the man has no organization skills what's so ever on the pitch.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

The positives people would label as being positives, are not positives for me.

I'm sorry but I'm really not buying "second" as being some massive achievement considering how far behind City we were, and that the start of the season form was clearly a freak, and not the mean for the team.

If we didn't have that start of season spell, we might have even finished 3rd or 4th.

This is the problem with Jose, when your not winning trophies, there is pretty much **** all else to fall back on.

I doubt rival fans could or are having as much indepth discussion about the issue being players or the manager, as we will have. And I don't think there is any other rival that has as much question marks over as many players in the squad as we have.

I'm not pedalling anything, I'm here to express my views and opinions, I'm not here to convert anyone nor have I ever been. You either agree with me and take solace that your not alone in your thoughts, or you disagree with me and want to thrash it out. The epicentre of fandom

You said you could describe us as being in crisis compared to the other teams in the top 5-6 thats the part i believe to be the most nonsensical as there is no way your judging things fairly if thats the conclusion you landed on.

Cantona's Collars

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It would send out the wrong message to appoint Pogba captain.

I think that the captain should be Jose’s first choice centre-half for next season, and only he knows who that is.

So Smalling, Jones, Bailly, or perhaps someone who’s at Spurs currently...

The thing about Pogba is that he's very vocal on the pitch. Go to any game and you'll see him trying to direct the play and shouting at players especially when they constantly pick the safe option of a square ball or pass it back instead of keeping an attack going.
Even in the final he was calling and pointing for Valencia to pass to Matic who was running into space but of course Val did his usual and went back,the result was all impetus in the attack was lost.
The last game I was at was against Swansea and he was going nuts especially in the second half as all around him retreated into their shells after running the game for 45 minutes.
Yes,he can look disinterested at times but it's hard to blame him when so many around him play a different game of "we must not lose" compared to his idea of "let's go win the game".
If he makes his trademark attacking runs etc. while everyone else goes the other way he looks out of place,when on the rare occasions that the team plays as a cohesive attacking unit then this looks amazing.

rekluse

Finding it hard to get excited about the transfer window. I have a faint hope that if we can get 2 decent full backs it might improve our football, but to be honest I’m expecting nothing more than top 4 next season. If this occurs then Jose has to go. Who we go for then lord only knows. 3 appointments since Fergie we have made an absolute balls of and 100’s of millions squandered. Shambles.

bangkok

jayo26 wrote: »

Lukaku is one of the most vocal players on the pitch if you ever get a chance to see him play live he spends the entire 90 minutes shouting and trying to get to players to play balls where he wants them and isn't afraid to have a go at his team mates either.

There was a game a month or so back where martial missed an opportunity to play lukaku in and a few minutes later at half time all the players went walking off towards the tunnel and lukaku went over to martial and you could clearly see him trying to explain what he did wrong.

I was at the Swansea game and you could see him on the pitch in the second half trying to get the midfield to take the finger out and start running.

I would 100 percent be behind Lukaku he is a natural leader I'm sure there is more then what I outlined to been a club captain but I'd have no worries about lukaku been vocal bloody Valencia would be the worst choice of caprain for years the man has no organization skills what's so ever on the pitch.

being vocal on the field though shouldnt make you favourite for captaincy either...

Pogba is very vocal on the field and is respected by all his team mates, he could just as easily be captain by that logic

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

being vocal on the field though shouldnt make you favourite for captaincy either...

Pogba is very vocal on the field and is respected by all his team mates, he could just as easily be captain by that logic

Bangkok follow the bloody conversation I was replying to the op who said he wasn't vocal enough and was shy you never bloody stop twisting stuff into something stupid.

pjohnson

I can see why people want Pogba captain. It'll get Mourinho sacked guaranteed if we have to put that level of expectation on him.


And thr rubbish of Pogba was good once and will be again. I suppose Fergie was awful not to get Forlan playing well in England? Dumping all resoponsibility on the manager and absolving all players of any duty is nonsense.

brinty

jayo26 wrote: »

Bangkok follow the bloody conversation I was replying to the op who said he wasn't vocal enough and was shy you never bloody stop twisting stuff into something stupid.

C'mon now jayo you know not to say things like that....
its bangkok modus operandi 101 for him to twist stuff...

in a week you know well he'll be saying that he suggested the most vocal guy on the pitch should be captain!!!!

pjohnson

TheDoc wrote: »

I manage people, and I've also done in other roles in the past.

And you know what, even looking at my current team, I've been lumped with people who havn't a ****ing clue. I work in an old school environment and culture where IT used to be a dumping ground for people from other places in the company that were under performing or difficult, but they didn't want to pay off. I have someone who was demoted under a new org structure, yet pretends they are still a line manager, and constantly challenges my authority each and every day.

Yet I make it work, and we still perform. Because if I don't, the buck stops with me. They don't replace the entire department or teams, they replace the lead and the manager. It's how it works and how it always works.

I'd ****ing love to be able to just send two people packing and just go out and "buy" quality personal, but I can't. Wouldn't it be great if I could just brush off any critique that comes my way from my employers or peer managers, that my team are mentally weak. That they arn't good enough. Just absolve myself of all responsibility and ask what am I supposed to do with this lot, I didn't hire them, they arn't my staff and don't operate the way I do or have my mindset.

Nonsense, management 101 is utilising resources, to make a team more than the sum of its parts, to make everyone feel valued and give them a healthy environment to operate in, to achieve goals. It's why I find this idea laughable, and I include the likes of Pep in that. That it only works because they need a specific profile or character to manage, or it wont work.

I'm sorry but if you cant adapt and mange the diverse characters and people in life, your not a good manager. Period.

Mourinho is a classic example of a manager who isn't adapting and isn't morphing. His man management, one of his key strengths historically, is now his absolute prime weakness, it's so obvious.

I'd love to work for you then sounds cushy tbh. No matter how incompetent or useless I am, or hungover or how many times I shag things up, its up to you to fix it and if you can't you take the blame for not managing me properly. Zero responsibility or accountability.

Zeek12

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It would send out the wrong message to appoint Pogba captain.

I think that the captain should be Jose’s first choice centre-half for next season, and only he knows who that is.

So Smalling, Jones, Bailly, or perhaps someone who’s at Spurs currently...

Honestly. If Jones is still first choice centre half next season we're done for!!

I hope you're correct on the Spurs comment

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Jose imo hasnt evolved as a manager. He is still stuck in a period from 10 years ago

:pac:

since the end of the 2007/2008 season he has won a Champions League, a Europa League, 2 Italian leagues, Italian Cup, Italian Super Cup, a LaLiga, Copa Del Rey, Spanish SuperCup, a Premier League and 2 League Cups. And just for the shït and giggles a Charity Shield.

Stuck in a period 10 years ago indeed

brinty

astradave wrote: »

:pac:

since the end of the 2007/2008 season he has won a Champions League, a Europa League, 2 Italian leagues, Italian Cup, Italian Super Cup, a LaLiga, Copa Del Rey, Spanish SuperCup, a Premier League and 2 League Cups. And just for the shït and giggles a Charity Shield.

Stuck in a period 10 years ago indeed

G'way you with your "logic"... you know that doesn't make sense don't ye.... :rolleyes:

bangkok

Jose has been our manager for 2 years now, had 4 transfer windows to shape his team, has spent 300m on players and still he managed to start with a back 5 who were all signed by fergie.... 2 of who are converted wingers

couldnt make it up

How Soon Is Now

Matic or Lukaku for captain so based on the current manager his position in the team and what I've seen and heard of him so far at the club Matic!

Plus it's clear the Eastern European lads tend to have a bit of steel to them.

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Jose has been our manager for 2 years now, had 4 transfer windows to shape his team, has spent 300m on players and still he managed to start with a back 5 who were all signed by fergie.... 2 of who are converted wingers

couldnt make it up

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

You knew it was coming

Cantona's Collars

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/man-utd-transfer-news-alderweireld-14684066

£55 million deal for Alderweireld, probably includes wages etc.
Yes I moaned about the fee being too high but watching Jones get twisted in knots and not knowing whether to turn left or right changed my mind.
Smalling can feck off too,he looked good under LVG because we played a game of keep ball and he got so much protection because of it,if he gets exposed at all he turns into a rugby player and has the passing ability of a man on crutches.

brinty

astradave wrote: »

this deserves so much more than a thumbs up
I'm proud of you Dave

bangkok

brinty wrote: »

this deserves so much more than a thumbs up
I'm proud of you Dave

proud of what exactly?? its pathetic

brinty

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/man-utd-transfer-news-alderweireld-14684066

£55 million deal for Alderweireld, probably includes wages etc.
Yes I moaned about the fee being too high but watching Jones get twisted in knots and not knowing whether to turn left or right changed my mind.
Smalling can feck off too,he looked good under LVG because we played a game of keep ball and he got so much protection because of it,if he gets exposed at all he turns into a rugby player and has the passing ability of a man on crutches.

but but but he'll be 30 in March...
and does that 55m include the agents fee's and medical fee and transportation fee... etc etc etc....

am i doing it right!!!!!

DM_7

Stuff like past it for Jose is not something I can buy into, people make out something amazing has changed in football but I don't see it.

Many top managers are like consultants, they arrive do what they always do and then after a short time run off to another job. They can't stay too long in control of everything as the demands on players are so huge and they work in cycles. They make one really good team and then move on. Sometimes they leave behind something strong, sometimes they leave something broken or breaking. Look at Zidane, in another Champions League Final but domestic performances show cracks, can he start a new cycle and get them going as a group again? Far from clear as he started with a strong team.

The stand out club manager today is Simeone as he is in his job 7 years and is really delivering strong results, during a time of building a new stadium along with developing more than one team.

What SAF did was amazing as when he got older he changed his own role and found people he needed around him to run the team. He oversaw the creation of several teams at one club. Amazing.

Under Jose United have only just started creating his team. It is obvious the right hand side of the team needs improvements. He has moved on a lot of underperformers. Picked players many would have liked to see go in the past as he thinks they are best use of his group.

I don't agree that he is not getting the best out of guys like Martial, not when he can get so much out of Young or Lingard. I think he problem is more where Martial is in his development as a player than the manager.

It remains to be seen if Jose is just in another 4 year cycle of getting a team together or is he interested in running a football team longer through good and bad. Either way I think he is right person to do it today.

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

proud of what exactly?? its pathetic

Another thing thats patethic is someone miss quoting another poster and then when corrected move on to an entirely different argument some things don't change.

bangkok

jayo26 wrote: »

Another thing thats patethic is someone miss quoting another poster and then when corrected move on to an entirely different argument some things don't change.

miss quote how exactly jayo?

you said you would be 100% behind lukaku as captain as he was vocal, who also said you bloody hope valencia doesnt get it.

i reply saying if being vocal puts you near the top for being a captain candidate then pogba is in with a shout as well.

dont see what is wrong there

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

miss quote how exactly jayo?

you said you would be 100% behind lukaku as captain as he was vocal, who also said you bloody hope valencia doesnt get it.

i reply saying if being vocal puts you near the top for being a captain candidate then pogba is in with a shout as well.

dont see what is wrong there

You weren’t following the discussion, the discussion was someone posted Lukaku not being vocal saying he was shy, Jayo was countering that and then you chimed in..

threein99

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/man-utd-transfer-news-alderweireld-14684066

£55 million deal for Alderweireld, probably includes wages etc.
Yes I moaned about the fee being too high but watching Jones get twisted in knots and not knowing whether to turn left or right changed my mind.
Smalling can feck off too,he looked good under LVG because we played a game of keep ball and he got so much protection because of it,if he gets exposed at all he turns into a rugby player and has the passing ability of a man on crutches.

I don't get all the praise Bailly gets too, hes almost as limited on the ball as Smalling is. Maybe with better quality beside he would do better.

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

miss quote how exactly jayo?

you said you would be 100% behind lukaku as captain as he was vocal, who also said you bloody hope valencia doesnt get it.

i reply saying if being vocal puts you near the top for being a captain candidate then pogba is in with a shout as well.

dont see what is wrong there

And here is another example of you twisting stuff where I did i say i back him because he is vocal? I clearly wrote that I am 100 percent beind lukaku as he is a natural born leader so you blatantly changed the words of what i wrote.

Your clearly been daft if you can't see what's wrong with what you attempt to do.

SlickRic

My 2c.

And this is as a rival fan, so you're welcome to tell me to fúck off with any of this.

Utd beat Liverpool (my team) once and drew with them the other. that's good going.
Utd beat City once. that's good going.
Utd beat Spurs a couple of times. that's good going.
basically, your top 6 record is pretty good.

but i guarantee you not one of the top teams in the PL actually fear Utd. and that is the difference. it's not Josault that it disappeared - Moyes and LVG helped with that first - Josoes not bring that fear factor anymore himself, and on top of that, if you weren't a fan, or you weren't a rival fan wanting to see Utd lose, then more often than not, you don't want to watch a Utd game. they're largely pedestrian, old fashioned, boring and predictable. Utd win games by sheer force and bludgeoning of the door down; not using progressive football, but just using sheer power.

i've talked to a fair few Utd fans this season. i'm of the generation that grew up as Utd got really successful, so i've too many friends who are fans. it's tough and they tell me that they regularly turn off their games, don't care that the team is 2nd, and the FA Cup Final was meaningless to them. the club is not capturing the imagination of the fans. and it's the football that must do that. you can talk about 'functional' all you like, and that Josften gets results, but for your fans (from what I can gather), that is not why you started supporting Utd, and it actually isn't good enough. that is why Josas never quite felt right in the position. he has the stature, obviously. but his demeanor, and the demeanor of his team, just doesn't sit right.

it doesn't help, I assume, that City won the league so spectacularly. and even though you came above Liverpool (and were unbeaten against us, including one win), if you're honest, it must rankle a little that they're playing the type of stuff they are. that's your two most hated rivals capturing their fans' imaginations.

the club is in a difficult place to know what to do. while there were no trophies this year, Josas no doubt improved the league form points-wise, and almost won the FA Cup. it wasn't the disaster of a season that many have said it was, but it's not made anyone really sit up and notice in the way that City and Liverpool's seasons have.

the first few games of next season are probably vital. there needs to be a statement from the team on the pitch that they know what they need to do to actually compete with City, and to make strides in the Champions League. they need to be willing to cut loose when necessary, and not just when the team gets an early goal. trying to nick a goal, sit back, and counter attack is not going to cut it. whether Josikes it or not, that probably isn't enough - practically in terms of winning the big trophies, and also in terms of having the majority of the fans onside. i know he probably doesn't care if he has the majority of fans onside, but it matters. he can be as belligerent as he wants about how 'Utd didn't compete in Europe for ages before him' or whatever else he wants to say to try and deflect from himself. but he won't last unless something changes.

I do think he'll be gone by the end of next season.

he ain't going to change, and I just don't think the fans will put up with it unless there are trophies. Jos style utterly dictates, more than any other manager, that trophies must be won, or else pressure will come. his whole reasoning for the style is that it's pragmatic for getting results. if the results aren't right, he simply can't survive.

Utd has to capture the imagination of their fans.
it's part of the aura.

and i just don't think it will do that while Joss in charge.

jayo26

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjCC3xMB0_A/

One thing we can all agree on....... Patrice is king.

bucketybuck

SlickRic wrote: »

Jos style utterly dictates, more than any other manager, that trophies must be won, or else pressure will come. his whole reasoning for the style is that it's pragmatic for getting results. if the results aren't right, he simply can't survive.

Utd has to capture the imagination of their fans.
it's part of the aura.

and i just don't think it will do that while Joss in charge.

I haven't time to respond to all, but I'll point out that this is somewhat of a fallacy. It seems to be based on this myth that Jose just parks the bus and plays defensive football, when in fact many of his teams were actually really good to watch and scored bucket loads of goals on their way to titles. People are happy to ignore that fact because it suits them, but Jose is perfectly happy to play good football and has proven that.

The issue is not Jose's "style", its why this particular group of players cannot do what most of his previous teams could do perfectly well.

jayo26

bucketybuck wrote: »

I haven't time to respond to all, but I'll point out that this is somewhat of a fallacy. It seems to be based on this myth that Jose just parks the bus and plays defensive football, when in fact many of his teams were actually really good to watch and scored bucket loads of goals on their way to titles. People are happy to ignore that fact because it suits them, but Jose is perfectly happy to play good football and has proven that.

The issue is not Jose's "style", its why this particular group of players cannot do what most of his previous teams could do perfectly well.

Well said buck and it's not absorbing Jose of the blame by saying that either because clearly it's his job to get the players playing and motivating them but the myth of wanting to play defensive football is wrong.

brinty

TBF to SlickRic, he has made a few valid points there. Yes citeh and the pool are capturing the imagination of people but winning football is all the realistically matters and that's what defines a manager. In all reality has Pep reinvented the wheel, nope not even a little bit. At Barca he got them back to playing a 4-3-3 style of total football. At Bayern he had no competition and didn't really progress them any further than where they already were. They'd just won a treble when he took over and they haven't been close in Europe since. At Citeh he's spent 500m + in two season's and still couldn't get close to winning the champions league. And realistically yes Klopp has played exciting football but if they don't win on Saturday night its three season's without a trophy for him. And whilst everyone loves to talk about his sexy football he's gotten the cheque book out too plenty. £75m on a central defender... didn't he say he'd rather quit than do such a thing

GSPfan

@TheDoc

Jesus you described my own workplace there exactly, right down to the demoted guy who walks around like he still runs the place.

@pjohnson

If he works for a proper company with a HR department and his staff don’t do anything ludicrous like you suggested then it’s extremely time consuming and upsetting to try get rid of a staff member. It would actually do more short to long term damage than its worth sometimes as the staff remaining tend to band together and work against you. Correct me if I’m wrong Doc.

Management of people is a pain.

bangkok

SlickRic wrote: »

My 2c.

And this is as a rival fan, so you're welcome to tell me to fúck off with any of this.

Utd beat Liverpool (my team) once and drew with them the other. that's good going.
Utd beat City once. that's good going.
Utd beat Spurs a couple of times. that's good going.
basically, your top 6 record is pretty good.

but i guarantee you not one of the top teams in the PL actually fear Utd. and that is the difference. it's not Josault that it disappeared - Moyes and LVG helped with that first - Josoes not bring that fear factor anymore himself, and on top of that, if you weren't a fan, or you weren't a rival fan wanting to see Utd lose, then more often than not, you don't want to watch a Utd game. they're largely pedestrian, old fashioned, boring and predictable. Utd win games by sheer force and bludgeoning of the door down; not using progressive football, but just using sheer power.

i've talked to a fair few Utd fans this season. i'm of the generation that grew up as Utd got really successful, so i've too many friends who are fans. it's tough and they tell me that they regularly turn off their games, don't care that the team is 2nd, and the FA Cup Final was meaningless to them. the club is not capturing the imagination of the fans. and it's the football that must do that. you can talk about 'functional' all you like, and that Josften gets results, but for your fans (from what I can gather), that is not why you started supporting Utd, and it actually isn't good enough. that is why Josas never quite felt right in the position. he has the stature, obviously. but his demeanor, and the demeanor of his team, just doesn't sit right.

it doesn't help, I assume, that City won the league so spectacularly. and even though you came above Liverpool (and were unbeaten against us, including one win), if you're honest, it must rankle a little that they're playing the type of stuff they are. that's your two most hated rivals capturing their fans' imaginations.

the club is in a difficult place to know what to do. while there were no trophies this year, Josas no doubt improved the league form points-wise, and almost won the FA Cup. it wasn't the disaster of a season that many have said it was, but it's not made anyone really sit up and notice in the way that City and Liverpool's seasons have.

the first few games of next season are probably vital. there needs to be a statement from the team on the pitch that they know what they need to do to actually compete with City, and to make strides in the Champions League. they need to be willing to cut loose when necessary, and not just when the team gets an early goal. trying to nick a goal, sit back, and counter attack is not going to cut it. whether Josikes it or not, that probably isn't enough - practically in terms of winning the big trophies, and also in terms of having the majority of the fans onside. i know he probably doesn't care if he has the majority of fans onside, but it matters. he can be as belligerent as he wants about how 'Utd didn't compete in Europe for ages before him' or whatever else he wants to say to try and deflect from himself. but he won't last unless something changes.

I do think he'll be gone by the end of next season.

he ain't going to change, and I just don't think the fans will put up with it unless there are trophies. Jos style utterly dictates, more than any other manager, that trophies must be won, or else pressure will come. his whole reasoning for the style is that it's pragmatic for getting results. if the results aren't right, he simply can't survive.

Utd has to capture the imagination of their fans.
it's part of the aura.

and i just don't think it will do that while Joss in charge.

too be honest i dont think any team in the league fears united.

our attack is poor, our defense is poor, we have a world class goalkeeper that bails us out so many times, the way we set up in games isnt the manchester united way, we are very easy to defend against and our plan B is Fellaini

TheDoc

pjohnson wrote: »

I'd love to work for you then sounds cushy tbh. No matter how incompetent or useless I am, or hungover or how many times I shag things up, its up to you to fix it and if you can't you take the blame for not managing me properly. Zero responsibility or accountability.

Didn't say my place was a good place to work, or more importantly, how that environment should work.

The general point I was making, in ref back to the original poster, is that Mourinho as a "manager" operates in an environment very few people in management are afforded.

Excuses for everything, even when they make absolutely no sense or are just pure lies, and has to provide or show no adaptability or flexibility. Things not working, shift out the staff, hire in new ones. They need to fit a manager "philiosophy"

Instead of most organisations, where your meeting the ethos and culture of the organisation, not a person or particular manager.

But fear I'm taking this analogy too far. Point being dont think you can compare football management to business management or vice versa. They arn't really comparable, they've a few cross overs but thats about it.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

I haven't time to respond to all, but I'll point out that this is somewhat of a fallacy. It seems to be based on this myth that Jose just parks the bus and plays defensive football, when in fact many of his teams were actually really good to watch and scored bucket loads of goals on their way to titles. People are happy to ignore that fact because it suits them, but Jose is perfectly happy to play good football and has proven that.

The issue is not Jose's "style", its why this particular group of players cannot do what most of his previous teams could do perfectly well.

This is the problem with Mourinho. It's actually not as obvious as you make out.

He enables and coaches good football, or he was able to inherit/buy players to do it for him?

Belittle it all you want, its a valid point of discussion, when the history available of information from Real, Chelsea and Inter all outline the guy never coached attacking play or players.

The issue isn't even "Jose playing defensive football" as you'd like to make out. Those of us complaining about the style or the issues, are pointing to the fact our attack is an absolute mess. There is no construct, cohesion or anything. It's six players dumped into the mix hoping to figure it out themselves.

And he was extremely defensive at times, that is literally not open to debate. Shock horror he makes a tweak to how he addresses the big games, when his record had turned into a joke, and he improved it massively in six months.

He can do it if he wants to, he isn't a stupid man or a bad coach. He just isn't feeling any pressure or obligation to address his clear issues or the problems. And it's the problem with having a manager just twist his own narrative. Making out now that "proper" football people or "proper" fans are happy and know the progress. Total bollox.

I'd say he keeps up in this vain the home fans will let him know exactly what they think of it all next season.

TheDoc

GSPfan wrote: »

@TheDoc

Jesus you described my own workplace there exactly, right down to the demoted guy who walks around like he still runs the place.

@pjohnson

If he works for a proper company with a HR department and his staff don’t do anything ludicrous like you suggested then it’s extremely time consuming and upsetting to try get rid of a staff member. It would actually do more short to long term damage than its worth sometimes as the staff remaining tend to band together and work against you. Correct me if I’m wrong Doc.

Management of people is a pain.

Ah yeah the stuff PJ is mentioning of course would be addressed. Issues I contend with are cultural and more personality based. I basically have some total slackers and arseholes that I can't shift because they are well wise in putting in the bare minimum and they have some ridiculous contracts and agreements from back in the day.

TheDoc

brinty wrote: »

TBF to SlickRic, he has made a few valid points there. Yes citeh and the pool are capturing the imagination of people but winning football is all the realistically matters and that's what defines a manager. In all reality has Pep reinvented the wheel, nope not even a little bit. At Barca he got them back to playing a 4-3-3 style of total football. At Bayern he had no competition and didn't really progress them any further than where they already were. They'd just won a treble when he took over and they haven't been close in Europe since. At Citeh he's spent 500m + in two season's and still couldn't get close to winning the champions league. And realistically yes Klopp has played exciting football but if they don't win on Saturday night its three season's without a trophy for him. And whilst everyone loves to talk about his sexy football he's gotten the cheque book out too plenty. £75m on a central defender... didn't he say he'd rather quit than do such a thing

If Liverpool don't win, they have just been in a CL final.
And they have a manager they have total faith in, an exceptional attacking unit and yeah their fans can be just as frustrated at times when they have silly results, they have a very obvious sense of progression, improvement and the sky is the limit for them.

Like if Liverpool lose that final, and some people give it large with the "wahhhh, your fancy football no trophies" I'd be a bit embarrassed for them as its the lowest sort of tribal fandom nonsense.

Don't think we are in any reality to be giving it the big one to rivals, whether we finished above them or not. And that is the problem. for many of us, there is nothing enjoyable or "pride" filling in this United team

mosstin

TheDoc wrote: »

If Liverpool don't win, they have just been in a CL final.
And they have a manager they have total faith in, an exceptional attacking unit and yeah their fans can be just as frustrated at times when they have silly results, they have a very obvious sense of progression, improvement and the sky is the limit for them.

Like if Liverpool lose that final, and some people give it large with the "wahhhh, your fancy football no trophies" I'd be a bit embarrassed for them as its the lowest sort of tribal fandom nonsense.

Don't think we are in any reality to be giving it the big one to rivals, whether we finished above them or not. And that is the problem. for many of us, there is nothing enjoyable or "pride" filling in this United team

Bravo.

jayo26

TheDoc wrote: »

If Liverpool don't win, they have just been in a CL final.
And they have a manager they have total faith in, an exceptional attacking unit and yeah their fans can be just as frustrated at times when they have silly results, they have a very obvious sense of progression, improvement and the sky is the limit for them.

Like if Liverpool lose that final, and some people give it large with the "wahhhh, your fancy football no trophies" I'd be a bit embarrassed for them as its the lowest sort of tribal fandom nonsense.

Don't think we are in any reality to be giving it the big one to rivals, whether we finished above them or not. And that is the problem. for many of us, there is nothing enjoyable or "pride" filling in this United team

The problem is people don't take pride in our season or no one is saying they are fully happy with it doc that's the big problem here can you point to one decent poster that has said im 100 percent happy.

I have no problem discussing Jose's down falls same as I've no problem discussing stuff with pogba but most arguments start off with but finishing second in the league doesn't matter we play ****.

I'm sorry but it does matter it may not matter as reason to be happy with the team or it may not matter for a reason to have one over on another fan base but it's matters that this team coasted over the line to second place having gave up pretty much half way through the season.

I don't know if Jose will succeed next year or not but I'm not going to totally right him off and ignore the fact that he has won trophies with us and every other team he has been at with comment like he is stuck 10 years in the past.. as Dave pointed out he has won everything there is to win in the recent 10 years in the game.

So yes by the looks of it on the outside we have problems on the team we have a disfunctional team that turns up some games and beats the teams we are seemingly miles behind or it turns up other times as if they never played with each other before and put in the worst performance I've seen in years this is a major concern but on the other hand if Jose does someway fond a way of getting the best out of these players and with a few additions who knows where we will go next year seen as we amassed 80 points this year and made it to the fa cup final.

These ain't things to be proud of noway but they are shortcomings that probably 17 or 18 other teams in England would wish they had of achieved this year.

And at the end of the day if Jose fails next year he will probably be gone and leaving behind a pretty good foundation for a manager that can motivate the players as he pretty much has done at every other club he was at apart from under Milan.

yourdeadwright

I wonder do all United fans want to build a team around Pogba ,
I think he just isn't as good as people want him to be , I don't think he has ever shown the ability some fans think he has,
I think trying to build a team around him will be a huge down fall of United, He just isn't good enough often enough to bother doing it,
It's almost as if the price tag and media hype have somehow put Jose in a corner where he must build a team around Pogba or he will be seen as a failure, 
 Juve accommodated him but never built there team around him, he was given the platform to float about and not have to worry about dictating a game, in fact I can't see any top team building a side around him ,
I think it will be better for United as a club when there own fans realise he's not a player you  build a team around,
it'll be very interesting to see what France do with him in the summer, I think they will do what Juve did and  set up to accommodate him rather than play through him ,
I say accommodate because he never fully in a game he comes in and out , so they will set up that he isn't dictating there build up play but has the chance to effect certain moments and disappear again for parts of the game ,

Drumpot

TheDoc wrote: »

If Liverpool don't win, they have just been in a CL final.
And they have a manager they have total faith in, an exceptional attacking unit and yeah their fans can be just as frustrated at times when they have silly results, they have a very obvious sense of progression, improvement and the sky is the limit for them.

Like if Liverpool lose that final, and some people give it large with the "wahhhh, your fancy football no trophies" I'd be a bit embarrassed for them as its the lowest sort of tribal fandom nonsense.

Don't think we are in any reality to be giving it the big one to rivals, whether we finished above them or not. And that is the problem. for many of us, there is nothing enjoyable or "pride" filling in this United team

I actually think you have highlighted an issue that many don’t want to accept. This is a rebuilding phase of the club and it’s not meant to be fun during that period. I don’t remember it being enjoyable during 2004-2006! I also remember a lot of rival fans getting great joy out of united losing to benfica and going out at the group stages in an awfully poor group.

SAF and Gill leaving has set the club back years and The headline “united spend x” is just one of the many ways people ignore the very big issue which is that no top club has had to deal with such a gargantuan loss, then the likes United had to endure in 2013. There is no silver bullet to fix the issues quickly.

For all the Liverpool “pride” how did it work out for them when the glory years stopped? I don’t remember them lacking pride in Houllier or Benitez who bestowed some of the most horrible football possible. Stop rising to the bating of pundits and rival fans talking through their holes!!!

United are in a cycle that most clubs have to endure but it’s from a situation that’s not comparable with any top club.

I would have more pride in the club if they stuck by and completely supported a manager for a prolonged period of time , rather then get hung up on looking over the fence at City and Liverpool. It’s easy to support a team when it’s all going well , it’s a lot harder to take a step back and see the bigger picture when you feel badly about the team and your biggest rivals are high on smug and rubbing it in your face.

Lord TSC

The counter point to Liverpool though (and this isn't taking away from the CL final spot) is that it took them till the final day of the season to secure champions league football. A win or loss differently over the season, and they miss CL qualification from the league. For all their football is pretty, would Pool fans have been backing Klopp if he bottled the top 4 spot in the closing weeks? Yeah, if my Aunty had balls, but my point simply is that for all the style Pool showed, they got CL football in the end barely.

Question as well. I do understand people complaining about the style of football, and want to clarify something; do people feel Jose was negative in the cup final the other day? Do they feel tactically we should have arranged ourselves differently? Personally, I felt as if we had Chelsea pinned back for most of the game, or at least they were stuck in their own box, themselves playing an extremely "negative" game. Its interesting, to me, that Conte hasn't got the same slagging off for how ultra-negative he set his team up come Cup Final time, though I guess winning an FA Cup with that tactic lets people ignore it.

bangkok

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I wonder do all United fans want to build a team around Pogba ,
I think he just isn't as good as people want him to be , I don't think he has ever shown the ability some fans think he has,
I think trying to build a team around him will be a huge down fall of United, He just isn't good enough often enough to bother doing it,
It's almost as if the price tag and media hype have somehow put Jose in a corner where he must build a team around Pogba or he will be seen as a failure, 
 Juve accommodated him but never built there team around him, he was given the platform to float about and not have to worry about dictating a game, in fact I can't see any top team building a side around him ,
I think it will be better for United as a club when there own fans realise he's not a player you  build a team around,
it'll be very interesting to see what France do with him in the summer, I think they will do what Juve did and  set up to accommodate him rather than play through him ,
I say accommodate because he never fully in a game he comes in and out , so they will set up that he isn't dictating there build up play but has the chance to effect certain moments and disappear again for parts of the game ,

i want a team that can get the best out of Bailly, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford, Shaw(if he stays)

Pogba in the summer for France will be a different player for them and it usually shows. the team france have is better set up as well, with Mendy down the keft and Kante and Matuidi in the middle for them

rob316

Lord TSC wrote: »

The counter point to Liverpool though (and this isn't taking away from the CL final spot) is that it took them till the final day of the season to secure champions league football. A win or loss differently over the season, and they miss CL qualification from the league. For all their football is pretty, would Pool fans have been backing Klopp if he bottled the top 4 spot in the closing weeks? Yeah, if my Aunty had balls, but my point simply is that for all the style Pool showed, they got CL football in the end barely.

Question as well. I do understand people complaining about the style of football, and want to clarify something; do people feel Jose was negative in the cup final the other day? Do they feel tactically we should have arranged ourselves differently? Personally, I felt as if we had Chelsea pinned back for most of the game, or at least they were stuck in their own box, themselves playing an extremely "negative" game. Its interesting, to me, that Conte hasn't got the same slagging off for how ultra-negative he set his team up come Cup Final time, though I guess winning an FA Cup with that tactic lets people ignore it.

Context is everything, Liverpool only stuttered for the last few games because of the CL run. They like United looked banker for months for Top 4.

On style. If your not winning trophies their needs to be entertainment, hammering teams, flair players etc.

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

The counter point to Liverpool though (and this isn't taking away from the CL final spot) is that it took them till the final day of the season to secure champions league football. A win or loss differently over the season, and they miss CL qualification from the league. For all their football is pretty, would Pool fans have been backing Klopp if he bottled the top 4 spot in the closing weeks? Yeah, if my Aunty had balls, but my point simply is that for all the style Pool showed, they got CL football in the end barely.

Question as well. I do understand people complaining about the style of football, and want to clarify something; do people feel Jose was negative in the cup final the other day? Do they feel tactically we should have arranged ourselves differently? Personally, I felt as if we had Chelsea pinned back for most of the game, or at least they were stuck in their own box, themselves playing an extremely "negative" game. Its interesting, to me, that Conte hasn't got the same slagging off for how ultra-negative he set his team up come Cup Final time, though I guess winning an FA Cup with that tactic lets people ignore it.

it took them until the final day of the season though as they rested players for champions league quarter and semi finals as they were in a strong position in the league. there was never any real fear of them not making top 4

Drumpot

rob316 wrote: »

Context is everything, Liverpool only stuttered for the last few games because of the CL run. They like United looked banker for months for Top 4.

On style. If your not winning trophies their needs to be entertainment, hammering teams, flair players etc.

You mean like stuttering when 3 up to Seville? Or cruising against Roma and inevitably conceding goals that might of mattered had the ref awarded a clear peno earlier in the game? Or getting the rub of the green against city when a perfectly good goal was disallowed that might have made a huge difference.

One thing about this liverpool team is an exceptional ability to capitulate. Hell they nearly blew a top 4 spot from a comfortable position!! If united had gotten some of the decisions they got in city and Roma game we would still be hearing about it. Since they are the darlings of England they are exempt from rational , objective analysis.

bangkok

Drumpot wrote: »

You mean like stuttering when 3 up to Seville? Or cruising against Roma and inevitably conceding goals that might of mattered had the ref awarded a clear peno earlier in the game? Or getting the rub of the green against city when a perfectly good goal was disallowed that might have made a huge difference.

One thing about this liverpool team is an exceptional ability to capitulate. If united had gotten some of the decisions they got in city and Roma game we would still be hearing about it. Since they are the darlings of England they are exempt from rational , objective analysis.

we scored 1 goal over 180 mins v sevilla, so we cant really slag them over that!!