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Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2
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we scored 1 goal over 180 mins v sevilla, so we cant really slag them over that!!
Again he wasn't slagging he was pointing out that they have weakness too.
Not that in think it actually matters in this thread I hate the way it's gone back to free for all to talk about Liverpool once it's praising them.0 -
we scored 1 goal over 180 mins v sevilla, so we cant really slag them over that!!
So when comparing united with Liverpool we Can only talk about the things that suit your narrative? That doesn’t sound like the objectively balanced bangkok everybody knows and loves here...
Oh wait .... I meant the opposite of what I just wrote....0 -
Again he wasn't slagging he was pointing out that they have weakness too.
Not that in think it actually matters in this thread I hate the way it's gone back to free for all to talk about Liverpool once it's praising them.
of course they have weaknesses, every team does, but their weaknesses are a lot less than ours and we will need to spend a lot more come summer to fix our weaknesses than they will0 -
yourdeadwright wrote: »I wonder do all United fans want to build a team around Pogba ,
I think he just isn't as good as people want him to be , I don't think he has ever shown the ability some fans think he has,
I think trying to build a team around him will be a huge down fall of United, He just isn't good enough often enough to bother doing it,
It's almost as if the price tag and media hype have somehow put Jose in a corner where he must build a team around Pogba or he will be seen as a failure,
Juve accommodated him but never built there team around him, he was given the platform to float about and not have to worry about dictating a game, in fact I can't see any top team building a side around him ,
I think it will be better for United as a club when there own fans realise he's not a player you build a team around,
it'll be very interesting to see what France do with him in the summer, I think they will do what Juve did and set up to accommodate him rather than play through him ,
I say accommodate because he never fully in a game he comes in and out , so they will set up that he isn't dictating there build up play but has the chance to effect certain moments and disappear again for parts of the game ,
I dont. I think he was bought a the wrong time and has caused more issues than he has solved.
I think some of his performances have been absolutely shocking(although he is not alone in that).
hes a hugely talented footballer no doubt but talent alone doesnt cut it at the top level. I dont trust him.
Hopefully I`m wrong and he comes good as he seems an integral part of the plans but i wouldnt bat an eye lid if he was sold this summer.0 -
of course they have weaknesses, every team does, but their weaknesses are a lot less than ours and we will need to spend a lot more come summer to fix our weaknesses than they will
Maybe so but that's why United can afford to spend more then them again to hooefully fix problems.
Football is a short term focus a poor start to pool next year and people change their mind again I only really care about fixing our own problems and judge then what happens.0 -
i want a team that can get the best out of Bailly, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford, Shaw(if he stays)
Pogba in the summer for France will be a different player for them and it usually shows. the team france have is better set up as well, with Mendy down the keft and Kante and Matuidi in the middle for them
As usual your idea of Pogba role is odd. I dont think he has actually played beside both Kante and Matuidi once this year (I'd wonder if ever tbh). He normally just partners Kante in a two. Which is funny as for France they dont play this sacred "midfield 3" he desperately needs to perform at United.0 -
Of course no mention of the CL games Liverpool had to play while Man Utd were knocked in the last 16 which Mourinho said was normal for the club as he knocked them out himself in previous years.The counter point to Liverpool though (and this isn't taking away from the CL final spot) is that it took them till the final day of the season to secure champions league football. A win or loss differently over the season, and they miss CL qualification from the league. For all their football is pretty, would Pool fans have been backing Klopp if he bottled the top 4 spot in the closing weeks? Yeah, if my Aunty had balls, but my point simply is that for all the style Pool showed, they got CL football in the end barely.
Question as well. I do understand people complaining about the style of football, and want to clarify something; do people feel Jose was negative in the cup final the other day? Do they feel tactically we should have arranged ourselves differently? Personally, I felt as if we had Chelsea pinned back for most of the game, or at least they were stuck in their own box, themselves playing an extremely "negative" game. Its interesting, to me, that Conte hasn't got the same slagging off for how ultra-negative he set his team up come Cup Final time, though I guess winning an FA Cup with that tactic lets people ignore it.
Bizarre how Man Utd fans defend Mourinho tbh.
Ex Chelsea manager who blames players,media & even the fans for poor performances & results.0 -
Of course no mention of the CL games Liverpool had to play while Man Utd were knocked in the last 16 which Mourinho said was normal for the club as he knocked them out himself in previous years.
So, since you're here, if you guys had missed Top 4 because you were focusing on the CL, and your entire ability to play CL football next year came down to whether or not you can beat Real Madrid in a single game, would you guys be happy? Would you be happy if you lost to Real Madrid and had no CL football next year?
Whatever reasons you want to deflect towards, I know that Jose would have been out on his ass had we lost the EL finals last year and missed CL football this year. Would Pool have been happy with that if it had happened this year?0 -
Standard claim Martial is Spurs top transfer target.
Swap for Erikssen??0 -
You want to much you simply can not fit Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford inot the same starting 11 ,and two of them will not be happy sititng on the bench,yourdeadwright wrote: »I wonder do all United fans want to build a team around Pogba ,
I think he just isn't as good as people want him to be , I don't think he has ever shown the ability some fans think he has,
I think trying to build a team around him will be a huge down fall of United, He just isn't good enough often enough to bother doing it,
It's almost as if the price tag and media hype have somehow put Jose in a corner where he must build a team around Pogba or he will be seen as a failure,
Juve accommodated him but never built there team around him, he was given the platform to float about and not have to worry about dictating a game, in fact I can't see any top team building a side around him ,
I think it will be better for United as a club when there own fans realise he's not a player you build a team around,
it'll be very interesting to see what France do with him in the summer, I think they will do what Juve did and set up to accommodate him rather than play through him ,
I say accommodate because he never fully in a game he comes in and out , so they will set up that he isn't dictating there build up play but has the chance to effect certain moments and disappear again for parts of the game ,
i want a team that can get the best out of Bailly, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford, Shaw(if he stays)
Pogba in the summer for France will be a different player for them and it usually shows. the team france have is better set up as well, with Mendy down the keft and Kante and Matuidi in the middle for them
There to good to not be first choice,
I think without the media hype Rashford would be happy at his age to wait his turn but every week now he is hearing he must leave from pundits to improve and it can't be good for his head,0 -
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As usual your idea of Pogba role is odd. I dont think he has actually played beside both Kante and Matuidi once this year (I'd wonder if ever tbh). He normally just partners Kante in a two. Which is funny as for France they dont play this sacred "midfield 3" he desperately needs to perform at United.
france normally always play with 3. Pogba missed the last few qualifying games with France as he was injured, but come world cup time, france will more than likely start with kante, matuidi and pogba if all 3 are fit0 -
Cantona's Collars wrote: »Standard claim Martial is Spurs top transfer target.
Swap for Erikssen??
He's a #10, right? Unless we offload Pogba, I don't want us near a new #10....0 -
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Cantona's Collars wrote: »Standard claim Martial is Spurs top transfer target.
Swap for Erikssen??
Id say Spurs value Erikssen a lot more than they do Martial.
No way I could see them letting him leave.0 -
Cantona's Collars wrote: »Standard claim Martial is Spurs top transfer target.
Swap for Erikssen??
Swap for Harry Kane more like!!0 -
You mean like stuttering when 3 up to Seville? Or cruising against Roma and inevitably conceding goals that might of mattered had the ref awarded a clear peno earlier in the game? Or getting the rub of the green against city when a perfectly good goal was disallowed that might have made a huge difference.
Roma had a soft enough penalty given to them at Anfield and Liverpool had a decent shout for a penalty turned down in the 2nd leg too. One of the goals they did concede against Roma was just bizarrely unfortunate too in fairness to them. City had the rub of the green in their CL tie too it could be argued. Every team will benefit from refereeing decisions throughout the season. We had our fair share of decisions go our way against City ourselves, 1 or 2 legitimate penalty shouts for Liverpool at Old Trafford too.One thing about this liverpool team is an exceptional ability to capitulate. Hell they nearly blew a top 4 spot from a comfortable position!! If united had gotten some of the decisions they got in city and Roma game we would still be hearing about it. Since they are the darlings of England they are exempt from rational , objective analysis.
I think most would agree that they had one eye on the Champions League final/semi finals when they started dropping silly points towards the end of the season. No shame in losing to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge either, we do it practically every year. It's a tough place to go for any team.
The difference with Liverpool is, they improved as the season went on. They were leaking silly goals at the beginning of the season whilst we were scoring for fun. From looking at the threads from both teams going into the United/Pool game at Anfield, many Liverpool fans were expecting a hiding whilst many United fans were expecting us to put 3 or 4 past them. They sorted out their defense and goalkeeper issues for the most part are deservedly in a Champions League final - selling one of their best players in the meantime with no noticeable drop in performance levels whatsoever. We lose Lukaku to injury and the team doesn't look like it knows what to do anymore. We just grind out results for the most part and have arguably performed worse since we added a genuine world class player in Sanchez to the squad. Those early season 4 nil wins seem like a distant memory now.
I think most would agree that in terms of managing their team and utilising the resources available to them, Klopp has been far more effective and efficient than Mourinho has.
A key point for me personally (which I'm sure will be interpreted as "so pretty football is more important than results?" by a certain poster) is that Liverpool fans can actually enjoy watching their team and look forward to watching their team. I can't say I enjoy watching United lately, and whilst I watch every game I can, I can't say I get too excited about it or optimistic about what I'm going to see. I think many here would say the same if they're honest.0 -
I know its an argument done to death but the Liverpool board would be more tolerant of a Jürgen failure due to a profit from transfer since he has been in charge its 4million profit, , compared to Jose who's has spent a net of 260millionOf course no mention of the CL games Liverpool had to play while Man Utd were knocked in the last 16 which Mourinho said was normal for the club as he knocked them out himself in previous years.
So, since you're here, if you guys had missed Top 4 because you were focusing on the CL, and your entire ability to play CL football next year came down to whether or not you can beat Real Madrid in a single game, would you guys be happy? Would you be happy if you lost to Real Madrid and had no CL football next year?
Whatever reasons you want to deflect towards, I know that Jose would have been out on his ass had we lost the EL finals last year and missed CL football this year. Would Pool have been happy with that if it had happened this year?
I know it doesn't matter to the fans and really shouldn't but to boards money talks ,0 -
france normally always play with 3. Pogba missed the last few qualifying games with France as he was injured, but come world cup time, france will more than likely start with kante, matuidi and pogba if all 3 are fit
They have been playing 4231 throughout the qualifiers, think they have only played 433 once IIRC, they have Griezmann in the hole and 2 wide players. The game they played 433 I think Matuidi didn’t even play, think it was Raboit with Pogba and Kante0 -
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So, since you're here, if you guys had missed Top 4 because you were focusing on the CL, and your entire ability to play CL football next year came down to whether or not you can beat Real Madrid in a single game, would you guys be happy? Would you be happy if you lost to Real Madrid and had no CL football next year?
Whatever reasons you want to deflect towards, I know that Jose would have been out on his ass had we lost the EL finals last year and missed CL football this year. Would Pool have been happy with that if it had happened this year?
Would have been disapointed. But we have no divine right to be top 4.
We were mostly a mid table club before Klopp took over & sold our best players.
Klopp is doing a brillant job considering what we have spent & sold.0 -
france normally always play with 3. Pogba missed the last few qualifying games with France as he was injured, but come world cup time, france will more than likely start with kante, matuidi and pogba if all 3 are fit
I was doubtful so thought I'd check:
27th March 2018 (vs Russia): 4-3-3; Pogba, Kante (Matuidi 66), Rabiot (Tolisso 81)
23rd March 2018 (vs Colombia): 4-2-3-1; Matuidi (Pogba 65), Kante
14th November 2017 (vs Germany): 4-3-3; Pogba not selected
10th November 2017 (vs Wales): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
10th October 2017 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
7th October 2017 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
3rd September 2017 (vs Luxembourg): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
31st August 2017 (vs Netherlands): 4-2-3-1; Pogba, Kante
14th June 2017 (vs England): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
11th November 2016 (vs. Sweden): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
7th October 2016 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
6th September 2016 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
Interesting. Even what sky called a 4-4-2 was more likely a 4-2-3-1 tbh with wingers up and the second striker going #100 -
Context is everything, Liverpool only stuttered for the last few games because of the CL run. They like United looked banker for months for Top 4.
Fair point.
Liverpool were never realistically in danger of missing the Top 4.
Chelsea had left too much of a gap to catch up.
For my sins I have a lot of Pool supporting friends and know for sure none of them were concerned about missing the top 4.
Its obvious their focus has been massively trained on the CL Final.
We were the same towards end of last season - League games were put on the back burner. Everything was geared to the Europa final0 -
deaddonkey15 wrote: »Roma had a soft enough penalty given to them at Anfield and Liverpool had a decent shout for a penalty turned down in the 2nd leg too. One of the goals they did concede against Roma was just bizarrely unfortunate too in fairness to them. City had the rub of the green in their CL tie too it could be argued. Every team will benefit from refereeing decisions throughout the season. We had our fair share of decisions go our way against City ourselves, 1 or 2 legitimate penalty shouts for Liverpool at Old Trafford too.
I think most would agree that they had one eye on the Champions League final/semi finals when they started dropping silly points towards the end of the season. No shame in losing to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge either, we do it practically every year. It's a tough place to go for any team.
The difference with Liverpool is, they improved as the season went on. They were leaking silly goals at the beginning of the season whilst we were scoring for fun. From looking at the threads from both teams going into the United/Pool game at Anfield, many Liverpool fans were expecting a hiding whilst many United fans were expecting us to put 3 or 4 past them. They sorted out their defense and goalkeeper issues for the most part are deservedly in a Champions League final - selling one of their best players in the meantime with no noticeable drop in performance levels whatsoever. We lose Lukaku to injury and the team doesn't look like it knows what to do anymore. We just grind out results for the most part and have arguably performed worse since we added a genuine world class player in Sanchez to the squad. Those early season 4 nil wins seem like a distant memory now.
I think most would agree that in terms of managing their team and utilising the resources available to them, Klopp has been far more effective and efficient than Mourinho has.
A key point for me personally (which I'm sure will be interpreted as "so pretty football is more important than results?" by a certain poster) is that Liverpool fans can actually enjoy watching their team and look forward to watching their team. I can't say I enjoy watching United lately, and whilst I watch every game I can, I can't say I get too excited about it or optimistic about what I'm going to see. I think many here would say the same if they're honest.
You see people are talking about Liverpools champions league progress like its a perfectly flawless path to the final. You are happy to focus primarily on the incidents in their games that discount the luck that I think most teams need to get to a final. Hell Madrid's greatest strength has been ruthless efficiency and in many a game they were outplayed and yet find themselves in the final. In short, the way Liverpool play on the edge they could very easily of not gotten as far as they have progressed, a very fine line.
I don't think people would agree that having one eye on the champions league warrants the kind of capitulation that nearly happened. In their last 6 league games they won 2 (Bournmouth and brighton), drew 3 games against poor opposition and lost to Chelsea in a game that was important after they had already qualified against Roma. And then they needed Chelsea to fk up against Huddersfield to make their final Saturday a comfortable affair.
I disagree with your sentiments and feel that you are just happier to explain away Liverpools deficiencys because its all worked out for them when it very nearly backfired. I don't actually think there is a top team as capable of falling apart as much as Liverpool. I think this will hurt them next season, most definitely in the league cause Klopp only knows one way of playing. Its Keegenesque but ridiculously entertaining so people don't care . .
In terms of managing resources I agree that Klopp is currently managing resources better but then again he has been there longer and has much less pressure. This allows him to sign and play players who can play with in a a more positive environment for growth and flourish. Say what we want but United or City are not a place to be for players looking to grow, that's a price that successful clubs have to pay. Salah went and flourished there because no other top club was interested or willing to make him a focal point. Liverpool can do this with certain players.
Sure if they hadn't gotten top 4 and lost the champions league final Klopp would still be lauded for his style of football so there is just chalk and cheese comparisons. I think its one of the reasons why United players look like they have lead in their boots. Quite simply the weight of expectation cripples them. Its not excusing their performances but it makes sense that when you are not overly confident or not playing well and your rivals are, its going to be harder when your own fans turn on you like we are seeing here and at the ground in some games.
and like I said earlier, Liverpool still haven't recovered their glory days of the 80s so it shouldn't be a surprise that its taking United longer to recover from Ferguson/Gill. Klopp may have less resources, but hes had way less issues to deal with then Jose.0 -
They have been playing 4231 throughout the qualifiers, think they have only played 433 once IIRC, they have Griezmann in the hole and 2 wide players. The game they played 433 I think Matuidi didn’t even play, think it was Raboit with Pogba and Kante
Bingo. That trio have never lined out together. Unless its pre September 2016.0 -
You have England v France and 4 4 2 ,france normally always play with 3. Pogba missed the last few qualifying games with France as he was injured, but come world cup time, france will more than likely start with kante, matuidi and pogba if all 3 are fit
I was doubtful so thought I'd check:
27th March 2018 (vs Russia): 4-3-3; Pogba, Kante (Matuidi 66), Rabiot (Tolisso 81)
23rd March 2018 (vs Colombia): 4-2-3-1; Matuidi (Pogba 65), Kante
14th November 2017 (vs Germany): 4-3-3; Pogba not selected
10th November 2017 (vs Wales): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
10th October 2017 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
7th October 2017 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
3rd September 2017 (vs Luxembourg): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
31st August 2017 (vs Netherlands): 4-2-3-1; Pogba, Kante
14th June 2017 (vs England): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
11th November 2016 (vs. Sweden): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
7th October 2016 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
6th September 2016 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
Interesting.
France played 3 in the centre in that game, Lemar played through the middle more so than as a normal left winger,0 -
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I also watched France v Sweden and again they played the same shape and had Spurs Sissoko as a 3rd midfielder swapping with Payet,france normally always play with 3. Pogba missed the last few qualifying games with France as he was injured, but come world cup time, france will more than likely start with kante, matuidi and pogba if all 3 are fit
I was doubtful so thought I'd check:
27th March 2018 (vs Russia): 4-3-3; Pogba, Kante (Matuidi 66), Rabiot (Tolisso 81)
23rd March 2018 (vs Colombia): 4-2-3-1; Matuidi (Pogba 65), Kante
14th November 2017 (vs Germany): 4-3-3; Pogba not selected
10th November 2017 (vs Wales): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
10th October 2017 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
7th October 2017 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
3rd September 2017 (vs Luxembourg): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
31st August 2017 (vs Netherlands): 4-2-3-1; Pogba, Kante
14th June 2017 (vs England): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
11th November 2016 (vs. Sweden): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
7th October 2016 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
6th September 2016 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
Interesting. Even what sky called a 4-4-2 was more likely a 4-2-3-1 tbh with wingers up and the second striker going #10
I didn''t see any of the other games but at a guess id imagine they kept doing the same thing0 -
all im saying is that IF ALL 3 ARE FIT, france will more than likely start with pogba kante and Matuidi0
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Kante is France's best CM easily.
On a different level to Pogba. Underrated on the ball as well.0 -
yourdeadwright wrote: »You have England v France and 4 4 2 ,
France played 3 in the centre in that game, Lemar played through the middle more so than as a normal left winger,
I just took the base formation from Sky Sports. Most of the 4-4-2 was more like a 4-2-3-1. I can't remember it but would it not have been that Lemar would have started left with Dembele wide right and Mbappe just off Giroud who was spearheading things. Lemar just could float inside as he likes to as a fully fit Mendy would have been rampaging on the left flank anyway.0 -
The counter point to Liverpool though (and this isn't taking away from the CL final spot) is that it took them till the final day of the season to secure champions league football. A win or loss differently over the season, and they miss CL qualification from the league. For all their football is pretty, would Pool fans have been backing Klopp if he bottled the top 4 spot in the closing weeks? Yeah, if my Aunty had balls, but my point simply is that for all the style Pool showed, they got CL football in the end barely.
Well we can even look at ourselves. We had a cup final and finished second and not everyone is chuffed with the manager. There will always be those that will take umbrage with managers or whatever, I'm sure there are Liverpool fans who dont rate Klopp or think hes a spoof, but I'm sure they are totally drowned out from a pretty hefty majority.
I'll tell you one thing, if we had an attack as fluid and effective as Liverpools in terms of their scoring, you wouldn't hear me complaining. Because if we had that, we probably would have gone to toe with City. We probably would have beat Sevilla and who knows, and we probably would have won yesterday.
It's the last piece of the puzzle for me, and has been that way since under Van Gaal.Question as well. I do understand people complaining about the style of football, and want to clarify something; do people feel Jose was negative in the cup final the other day? Do they feel tactically we should have arranged ourselves differently? Personally, I felt as if we had Chelsea pinned back for most of the game, or at least they were stuck in their own box, themselves playing an extremely "negative" game. Its interesting, to me, that Conte hasn't got the same slagging off for how ultra-negative he set his team up come Cup Final time, though I guess winning an FA Cup with that tactic lets people ignore it.
As you say he won the game. It's petty ****e when someone has won a game or a cup, and people nitpick the performance. They are sitting there with a cup.
I thought it was absolutely laughable that Mourinho would have the absolute gaul to say what he did about Conte and Chelseas tactics. This is the man that absolutely LOVED sharing with student after the Europa League about how he utilised Fellaini and long balls, to nullify Ajax press and midfield. It's laughable stuff from him, the last remnant manager who doesn't believe winning football should be played through the CM positions, to take umbrage with people playing more directly. It's hilarious, how he does he not hear himself.
But this is the world that Mourinho has built. You don't get points or trophies for performance, you get it for winning. Leave "nice looking football" to the poets.
Chelsea were hitting us on the break plenty, because we are a clueless mess in the final third. And it should have been 2-0 in all reality.
At some point in time it was being labelled the "Jose Masterclass"
To note, I didn't take any issue with the formation. The performance was garbage which the players carry water for, but so does the manager for his preparation, and you question how can the team consistently play, collectively so poor over and over and over again and the buck stops with the manager, as it has done throughout football.0 -
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Salah did not start as the focal point at Liverpool , He didn't even end the season as focal point ,deaddonkey15 wrote: »Roma had a soft enough penalty given to them at Anfield and Liverpool had a decent shout for a penalty turned down in the 2nd leg too. One of the goals they did concede against Roma was just bizarrely unfortunate too in fairness to them. City had the rub of the green in their CL tie too it could be argued. Every team will benefit from refereeing decisions throughout the season. We had our fair share of decisions go our way against City ourselves, 1 or 2 legitimate penalty shouts for Liverpool at Old Trafford too.
I think most would agree that they had one eye on the Champions League final/semi finals when they started dropping silly points towards the end of the season. No shame in losing to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge either, we do it practically every year. It's a tough place to go for any team.
The difference with Liverpool is, they improved as the season went on. They were leaking silly goals at the beginning of the season whilst we were scoring for fun. From looking at the threads from both teams going into the United/Pool game at Anfield, many Liverpool fans were expecting a hiding whilst many United fans were expecting us to put 3 or 4 past them. They sorted out their defense and goalkeeper issues for the most part are deservedly in a Champions League final - selling one of their best players in the meantime with no noticeable drop in performance levels whatsoever. We lose Lukaku to injury and the team doesn't look like it knows what to do anymore. We just grind out results for the most part and have arguably performed worse since we added a genuine world class player in Sanchez to the squad. Those early season 4 nil wins seem like a distant memory now.
I think most would agree that in terms of managing their team and utilising the resources available to them, Klopp has been far more effective and efficient than Mourinho has.
A key point for me personally (which I'm sure will be interpreted as "so pretty football is more important than results?" by a certain poster) is that Liverpool fans can actually enjoy watching their team and look forward to watching their team. I can't say I enjoy watching United lately, and whilst I watch every game I can, I can't say I get too excited about it or optimistic about what I'm going to see. I think many here would say the same if they're honest.
You see people are talking about Liverpools champions league progress like its a perfectly flawless path to the final. You are happy to focus primarily on the incidents in their games that discount the luck that I think most teams need to get to a final. Hell Madrid's greatest strength has been ruthless efficiency and in many a game they were outplayed and yet find themselves in the final. In short, the way Liverpool play on the edge they could very easily of not gotten as far as they have progressed, a very fine line.
I don't think people would agree that having one eye on the champions league warrants the kind of capitulation that nearly happened. In their last 6 league games they won 2 (Bournmouth and brighton), drew 3 games against poor opposition and lost to Chelsea in a game that was important after they had already qualified against Roma. And then they needed Chelsea to fk up against Huddersfield to make their final Saturday a comfortable affair.
I disagree with your sentiments and feel that you are just happier to explain away Liverpools deficiencys because its all worked out for them when it very nearly backfired. I don't actually think there is a top team as capable of falling apart as much as Liverpool. I think this will hurt them next season, most definitely in the league cause Klopp only knows one way of playing. Its Keegenesque but ridiculously entertaining so people don't care . .
In terms of managing resources I agree that Klopp is currently managing resources better but then again he has been there longer and has much less pressure. This allows him to sign and play players who can play with in a a more positive environment for growth and flourish. Say what we want but United or City are not a place to be for players looking to grow, that's a price that successful clubs have to pay. Salah went and flourished there because no other top club was interested or willing to make him a focal point. Liverpool can do this with certain players.
Sure if they hadn't gotten top 4 and lost the champions league final Klopp would still be lauded for his style of football so there is just chalk and cheese comparisons. I think its one of the reasons why United players look like they have lead in their boots. Quite simply the weight of expectation cripples them. Its not excusing their performances but it makes sense that when you are not overly confident or not playing well and your rivals are, its going to be harder when your own fans turn on you like we are seeing here and at the ground in some games.
and like I said earlier, Liverpool still haven't recovered their glory days of the 80s so it shouldn't be a surprise that its taking United longer to recover from Ferguson/Gill. Klopp may have less resources, but hes had way less issues to deal with then Jose.
Klopp Dortmond team conceded very few goals and where unreal at the back,
Since VVD signed Liverpool have only let in 9 Prem goals only City done better,
Injuries at a bad time and a small squad played the part of in them only getting top 4 on the last day,
They basically played the same team for the last 2 months,
You never mentioned how far behind the ace they where at the start of November they made up some serious ground, Only City have had more points since .0 -
yourdeadwright wrote: »I also watched France v Sweden and again they played the same shape and had Spurs Sissoko as a 3rd midfielder swapping with Payet,
I didn''t see any of the other games but at a guess id imagine they kept doing the same thing
Nah. That was Greizmann off Giroud with Sissoko and Payet on the flanks. I remember that game meself. Its just Sissoko is pretty crap at any position haha.0 -
There will be some serious head scratching by some when a new manager comes in and it’s the same shít from this group of players, I genuinely believe this team played to the best of its ability this season, which is the sad reality, put whatever manager you want in charge and play this season over 100 times and we will still finish miles behind City and trophyless, also the idea that we played crap football all season is a complete fabrication, we didn’t, in fact we probably played good enough football the majority of this season, the problem was not an ounce of creativity could be mustered at times to score against the defensive teams and our “big hitters” consistently went AWOL.
Mourinho will be sacked if we don’t do well next season, you don’t get more than 3 years at the top level these days, but we have major problems at this club.
Worst case scenario is the new manager comes in and decides to give this group of useless players a year to try and prove themselves, because that will be another season written off. We need a major rebuild, again, in hindsight we have bought painfully average players, in the context of winning a league or CL,for premium fees. These are the highest paid players in the world, I can’t think of one of them who can string 4 or 5 good appearances together except DDG, Lukaku and Matic.
What on earth are Lingard and Rashford doing starting cup finals for Manchester United? Why are we stuck with Phil Jones? Valencia and Young at fullback is a real handicap too, Finally what on earth is Paul Pogba? Surely one of the most idiotic purchases in history looking at it now, we cannot build a team around him. I’ve seen it said he looks a different player for France, well of course he ****ing does, it’s easy to look competent when you have world class players around you in every position and if I remember correctly the last tournament he played he got a lot of stick for doing nothing too.
Realistically we need 5 new starting XI players of very high quality to get near City, I really doubt our ability/willingness to bring in or spend the money on these players needed, you are looking at another 300+ million and surely the cash ends somewhere.
Thinking Pep or Klopp could come in and transform this team is delusional, we are a 3rd/4th place team who got lucky this season that Chelsea gave up and Liverpool had interests elsewhere.
I don’t think we will get the players needed and I think next season will go along the lines of this one, we will look kind of competitive until it all falls apart around January and we drop out of the cups/title race. I think we are in real trouble here, on course to going another few years without challenging, if Mourinho is failing who do we trust with the job? I guarantee Mourinho will start winning trophies again once he leaves, it looks like a poison chalice.0 -
So, since you're here, if you guys had missed Top 4 because you were focusing on the CL, and your entire ability to play CL football next year came down to whether or not you can beat Real Madrid in a single game, would you guys be happy? Would you be happy if you lost to Real Madrid and had no CL football next year?
Whatever reasons you want to deflect towards, I know that Jose would have been out on his ass had we lost the EL finals last year and missed CL football this year. Would Pool have been happy with that if it had happened this year?
While that might well have been the club executing that decision regardless, that was definitely not the general consensus here, last year.
I vividly remember airing my issues at Jose throwing the league to which plenty of people supported and called it obvious and logical, and when I'd broach the subject of it blowing up in his face and surely then he would deserve the sack there was plenty of " Oh you cant keep sacking the manager" and the likes.0 -
Mendy keep the width on the left by himself , Lemar sits in nice and tight like he does 90% of the time for Monaco ,Mbappe also starts from wide left ,yourdeadwright wrote: »You have England v France and 4 4 2 ,
France played 3 in the centre in that game, Lemar played through the middle more so than as a normal left winger,
I just took the base formation from Sky Sports. Most of the 4-4-2 was more like a 4-2-3-1. I can't remember it but would it not have been that Lemar would have started left with Dembele wide right and Mbappe just off Giroud who was spearheading things. Lemar just could float inside as he likes to as a fully fit Mendy would have been rampaging on the left flank anyway.
Its no where close to a 2 man midfield0 -
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I was doubtful so thought I'd check:
27th March 2018 (vs Russia): 4-3-3; Pogba, Kante (Matuidi 66), Rabiot (Tolisso 81)
23rd March 2018 (vs Colombia): 4-2-3-1; Matuidi (Pogba 65), Kante
14th November 2017 (vs Germany): 4-3-3; Pogba not selected
10th November 2017 (vs Wales): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
10th October 2017 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
7th October 2017 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba not selected
3rd September 2017 (vs Luxembourg): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
31st August 2017 (vs Netherlands): 4-2-3-1; Pogba, Kante
14th June 2017 (vs England): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
11th November 2016 (vs. Sweden): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
7th October 2016 (vs Bulgaria): 4-4-2; Pogba, Matuidi
6th September 2016 (vs Belarus): 4-4-2; Pogba, Kante
Interesting. Even what sky called a 4-4-2 was more likely a 4-2-3-1 tbh with wingers up and the second striker going #10
11th Nov France sweden it was 4-3-3 pogba matuidi and sissokko0 -
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He's a #10, right? Unless we offload Pogba, I don't want us near a new #10....
On a teamsheet he plays of the right, but just drifts into central areas to provide space for fullbacks.
I love Erikssen, but while I agree with you, OT has been a #10 graveyard, I don't know how he'd work out in our disjointed mess of an attack.
Funny enough he's the perfect Jose 10. Sets the tempo and pace and is consistently in the top KM covered stats and works his absolute bollox off.0 -
You see people are talking about Liverpools champions league progress like its a perfectly flawless path to the final. You are happy to focus primarily on the incidents in their games that discount the luck that I think most teams need to get to a final. Hell Madrid's greatest strength has been ruthless efficiency and in many a game they were outplayed and yet find themselves in the final. In short, the way Liverpool play on the edge they could very easily of not gotten as far as they have progressed, a very fine line.
No. You pointed out instances where they got favourable decisions in an effort to undermine their achievement in getting to the final. I pointed out that they got plenty of unfavourable decisions also.I don't think people would agree that having one eye on the champions league warrants the kind of capitulation that nearly happened. In their last 6 league games they won 2 (Bournmouth and brighton), drew 3 games against poor opposition and lost to Chelsea in a game that was important after they had already qualified against Roma. And then they needed Chelsea to fk up against Huddersfield to make their final Saturday a comfortable affair.
It wasn't quite a capitulation. They got only 2 points less than we did in their last 5 games. They needed to lose to Brighton as well which was very unlikely. It was always in Liverpool's control. Last season any criticism of Mourinho for the poor end to the league was met with "focusing on the Europa League final" arguments. Gas how the same argument doesn't apply to a team focusing on the Champions League final because it's Liverpool.I disagree with your sentiments and feel that you are just happier to explain away Liverpools deficiencys because its all worked out for them when it very nearly backfired. I don't actually think there is a top team as capable of falling apart as much as Liverpool. I think this will hurt them next season, most definitely in the league cause Klopp only knows one way of playing. Its Keegenesque but ridiculously entertaining so people don't care . .
It didn't very nearly backfire.In terms of managing resources I agree that Klopp is currently managing resources better but then again he has been there longer and has much less pressure. This allows him to sign and play players who can play with in a a more positive environment for growth and flourish. Say what we want but United or City are not a place to be for players looking to grow, that's a price that successful clubs have to pay. Salah went and flourished there because no other top club was interested or willing to make him a focal point. Liverpool can do this with certain players.
Sterling, Stones, Sane, Jesus.0 -
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On a teamsheet he plays of the right, but just drifts into central areas to provide space for fullbacks.
I love Erikssen, but while I agree with you, OT has been a #10 graveyard, I don't know how he'd work out in our disjointed mess of an attack.
Funny enough he's the perfect Jose 10. Sets the tempo and pace and is consistently in the top KM covered stats and works his absolute bollox off.
but he'll be 27 in February... FFS can we do nothing right around here....
Oh wait yea get him in now and he'll be perfecvt for winning trophies when we get Poch on board with his massive record of winning trophies... and maybe he'll attract Harry Kane to come too...
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:0 -
For all my criticism of Mourinho, I do hope that his conservative and defensive approach to games is, in part, down to the fact the defence has been Valencia, Jones, Smalling, Young. Part of that is on Jose for (1) Bailly and Lindelof not taking those spots and (2) not signing full backs - but you've got to think the trust in that back line is low, so the defence needs to be protected.
If he was to get in some proper full backs and Alerderwield would he feel he needs less conservatism in the rest of the side and less overt protection for them?
I really do hope we get those signings which could:
(1) Improve the general defensive performance.
(2) Improve the midfield by improving the confidence they can have in what is behind them and the balls they receive from the defence.
(3) Improve the attack by offering width that is actually dangerous, which will either provide decent crosses from wide or space inside for the attackers to exploit.
I've been vocal about my fear that how we currently play in terms of patterns is what Jose wants, but hopefully it is something trust (and performances) in some key positions could resolve.
My worry, again, on that score is that we potentially need SO MANY SIGNINGS that we are very likely to still go in to next season with dead wood.
Left back, Right Back, Centre Back, Centre Mid, Centre Mid (assuming Fellaini leaves). 5 key positions? If Martial leaves, or Pogba was to leave you are looking at signings to replace them too. I just can't see the club signing that many players or spending the money to get players of good enough quality should they sign that amount.
I'd struggle to suggest which position we could leave alone til the following summer too.0 -
It never ever just two,
France always play one sitting Kante and Pogba and another, Recently Lemar, Payet, Sissoko
It mite say 4-4-2 in the paper but watch them they always play 3 in the middle , one of the wide left or right players tucks right in and room is left for the full back on whatever side it is to bomb on ,0 -
Rayne Wooney wrote: »There will be some serious head scratching by some when a new manager comes in and it’s the same shít from this group of players, I genuinely believe this team played to the best of its ability this season, which is the sad reality,
I think all of Martial, Pogba, Lukaku, Rashford and Sanchez can perform better than they have this season. Hell, i'd say most of them looked really good until that liverpool match, then the performances went to sh1t for the rest of the season.
I just can't agree that all those players played to the best of their ability. Some of it is on them, some of it is on Mourinho for not being able to set us up to get the best out of them. In Lukakus case it is arguable on Woodward for not signing the winger Jose wanted to cross the ball in to him!
I would say a lot of other players did. Lingard, as a credit to him. Same with Matic for the most part. Young, Valencia, Jones, Smalling... don't think we could have expected more from them, they just aren't at the level required.0 -
yourdeadwright wrote: »It never ever just two,
France always play one sitting Kante and Pogba and another, Recently Lemar, Payet, Sissoko
It mite say 4-4-2 in the paper but watch them they always play 3 in the middle , one of the wide left or right players tucks right in and room is left for the full back on whatever side it is to bomb on ,
too be honest it looks like he just went to sky website, seen the formation and went with it.
and yes you are correct, they have recently used lemar in there as well0 -
Arguing the formation of France to me sounds a bit folly, considering Deschamps is pretty rubbish by all accounts I hear or read with plenty generally unhappy. And this is it, this is the pressure. France have for the first time in a while, an absolutely quality squad.
I'm actually fascinated to see what they do. They surely have to go two up top for Griezemann. You have to have MBappe in that team, you'd surely want Pogba too. How do you fit all these players into a system that gets the best out of them
I'm hoping from a United greedy POV Pogba goes beast mode to provide people wrong and has a class tournament and comes back fully prepared to prove people, fans, critics and the manager wrong. It won't take much, his ability and talent will do so much. We arn't expecting 20 goals or 20 assists, just expecting consistency and him to start running that team like people like me believe he can. And that isn't sitting on the ball spraying it around like Pirlo, but using his stamina and drive to just drag the team forward, to lift people around him.
I really hope he has a good tournament, because if he has a bad one, or deemed bad, its just snowballing and snowballing.0 -
yourdeadwright wrote: »It never ever just two,
France always play one sitting Kante and Pogba and another, Recently Lemar, Payet, Sissoko
It mite say 4-4-2 in the paper but watch them they always play 3 in the middle , one of the wide left or right players tucks right in and room is left for the full back on whatever side it is to bomb on ,
I admitted its not an actual 4-4-2 and more of a 4-2-3-1. But apparently France always play a 4-3-3 now. Which is far from what actually happens. The side is built around Greizmann not Pogba.0 -
but he'll be 27 in February... FFS can we do nothing right around here....
Oh wait yea get him in now and he'll be perfecvt for winning trophies when we get Poch on board with his massive record of winning trophies... and maybe he'll attract Harry Kane to come too...
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Like I said, people don't even understand the compliment they are paying Poch that they use not winning trophies.....for Spurs....as a stick to beat him with.0 -
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