Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

jayo26

secman wrote: »

And the relevance of that is ....exactly what....excuses us playing gank football., excuses the tactics home and away against Seville, excuses not getting best from the squad. ???

Love the way your able to make up so much bullshte from one sentence I posted for fun sake whatever you think yourself.

No relevance just pointing something out.

Andrew Beef

It’s a squad in transition...Jose needs time. The man inherited a shambles and has set about rebuilding things in a structured and systematic way. People need to calm down; Manchester City have spent 30% more than United on top of a more robust base. The recovery is happening, but it will take time. In Jose we trust.

Drumpot

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It’s a squad in transition...Jose needs time. The man inherited a shambles and has set about rebuilding things in a structured and systematic way. People need to calm down; Manchester City have spent 30% more than United on top of a more robust base. The recovery is happening, but it will take time. In Jose we trust.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/sport/football/915042/Highest-spending-clubs-transfer-window-CIES-Football-Observatory-Chelsea-sportgalleries/amp

Interesting that this link suggests City, Everton and Chelsea spent more then united this season.

Just as interesting is http://i.imgur.com/92QVcE7.jpg

United’s spending in the 5 years leading up to 2014. Shows the chronic under investment of the club for so long. Also shows that the recent spending by the club is nothing special and long overdue. This also explains why the net spend debate is farcical. City and Chelsea have spent way more for longer so they would of course have more valuable players to sell which makes their net spend appear to be not as bad over a shorter period of time.

Lord TSC

I see Raiola is bigging up Pogba, saying we got him cheap and he should have been a €200m player.

I don't think he's going anywhere this summer, but seeing his agent trying to big him up does make me wonder....if PSG came in and offered us 200m or whatever, willing to overpay, would Jose take the cash ahead and try to reinvest on players more willing to dedicate themselves fully to his cause.

Turtwig

secman wrote: »

And the relevance of that is ....exactly what....excuses us playing gank football., excuses the tactics home and away against Seville, excuses not getting best from the squad. ???

The tactics against Seville were wrong but these were largely the same tactics that have got you to second in the EPl and a semi in the Fa cup.
Sevilla are no mugs either. They may not have taken a point from the top four in la liga this season - but those top four also happen to be quite good. They are the Arsenal of that league in many ways but they are no where near as bad as some English pundits were making them out to be. Yes, United are a bigger club but nobody in Europe can say Sevilla have not handled themselves really well finance and squad wise this past decade.

Their biggest loss has been Monchi and Emery.

Andrew Beef

Lord TSC wrote: »

I see Raiola is bigging up Pogba, saying we got him cheap and he should have been a €200m player.

I don't think he's going anywhere this summer, but seeing his agent trying to big him up does make me wonder....if PSG came in and offered us 200m or whatever, willing to overpay, would Jose take the cash ahead and try to reinvest on players more willing to dedicate themselves fully to his cause.

The PSG/Pogba dynamic is an interesting one; if Neymar legs it to Madrid, we could have a once in a lifetime opportunity to get the Qataris to overpay for Pogba on foot of the whole “French legend coming home” narrative. I’d drive him there myself.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

I see Raiola is bigging up Pogba, saying we got him cheap and he should have been a €200m player.

I don't think he's going anywhere this summer, but seeing his agent trying to big him up does make me wonder....if PSG came in and offered us 200m or whatever, willing to overpay, would Jose take the cash ahead and try to reinvest on players more willing to dedicate themselves fully to his cause.

I'd take 200m. I'm also wary of any "superstar" type signing again. I'd prefer players with their star on the rise.

Lord TSC

pjohnson wrote: »

I'd take 200m. I'm also wary of any "superstar" type signing again. I'd prefer players with their star on the rise.

As in youngsters? Tbh, I think part of the issue under LVG was we went after "stars on the rise", who once they got to United felt their star had risen and it didnt rise as much as we hoped.

I feel more than anything that we need players who will bust a gut every single game, and dedicate themselves 100% to club and manager. I love Lukaku, who even when he's struggling is obviously working hard. You feel he'd walk through fire if Jose asked.

I don't mind superstars if they are bought because they will work hard and dedicate themselves to the team. I think we need to avoid Individuals, rather than superstars.

People talk about Liverpool and Spurs, and part of what I admire about their squads is that they feel like a team, rather than a collection of individuals. They bust their gut for each other. To me, I wouldn't care if a player is 18 or 35, if they arrive at United with a desire to work hard for 90 minutes.

jayo26

Turtwig wrote: »

The tactics against Seville were wrong but these were largely the same tactics that have got you to second in the EPl and a semi in the Fa cup.
Sevilla are no mugs either. They may not have taken a point from the top four in la liga this season - but those top four also happen to be quite good. They are the Arsenal of that league in many ways but they are no where near as bad as some English pundits were making them out to be. Yes, United are a bigger club but nobody in Europe can say Sevilla have not handled themselves really well finance and squad wise this past decade.

Their biggest loss has been Monchi and Emery.

The tactics against Seville were not the problem the problem for me was the lack of efforts and be life we won before we even arrived in Spain effect on the squad.

Look people will dig and joke abput Jose and his tactics and yes they ain't pretty but for where United are coming from what we need was a proven manager to rebuild the squad yes it's ugly but somethig had to happen to stop the slide.

I've always said this half joke but the team this year are playing cack football and under performing but we are still sitting second in the league imagine what they would do if Jose actually gets it bloody right next year.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

As in youngsters? Tbh, I think part of the issue under LVG was we went after "stars on the rise", who once they got to United felt their star had risen and it didnt rise as much as we hoped.

I feel more than anything that we need players who will bust a gut every single game, and dedicate themselves 100% to club and manager. I love Lukaku, who even when he's struggling is obviously working hard. You feel he'd walk through fire if Jose asked.

I don't mind superstars if they are bought because they will work hard and dedicate themselves to the team. I think we need to avoid Individuals, rather than superstars.

People talk about Liverpool and Spurs, and part of what I admire about their squads is that they feel like a team, rather than a collection of individuals. They bust their gut for each other. To me, I wouldn't care if a player is 18 or 35, if they arrive at United with a desire to work hard for 90 minutes.

Not necessarily youngsters even just players who still want to succeed. Lukaku is a great example. He hadn't much silverware and is hungry for success and has proved to be a great team player. Even Liverpool they signed Robertson from relegated Hull and that has turned out well for them as he is still trying to earn silverware. I remember last year when Hull were getting relegated I mentioned would Robertson and Maguire be worth getting only to be laughed at and told we should be looking at Alex Sandro instead.

For example this year I'd much prefer we signed Wilfred Ndidi over say Verratti as I imagine he would have that hunger to succeed. Big name players possibly know if they fail at a club they'll still have plenty of well paying suitors to sign them. Players just below that level are still proving themselves.

adox

Lord TSC wrote: »

I see Raiola is bigging up Pogba, saying we got him cheap and he should have been a €200m player.

I don't think he's going anywhere this summer, but seeing his agent trying to big him up does make me wonder....if PSG came in and offered us 200m or whatever, willing to overpay, would Jose take the cash ahead and try to reinvest on players more willing to dedicate themselves fully to his cause.

Honestly wouldn’t bat an eye lid if he was sold in the summer.

I fear it may never work out for him at Utd. Not writing him off yet but he’s been hugely underwhelming and is an indulgence this squad can’t afford.

Maybe if/when we sign another CM to play alongside Matic he will shine so let’s wait and see but I have serious doubts.

All the talent in the wold no doubt but his lack of game intellegence/awareness overall is honestly shocking. I think he causes huge confusion in the team.

Anyway let’s see what next season brings. If he’s still here hopefully he will find his feet and consistency.

PhlegmyMoses

pjohnson wrote: »

Not necessarily youngsters even just players who still want to succeed. Lukaku is a great example. He hadn't much silverware and is hungry for success and has proved to be a great team player. Even Liverpool they signed Robertson from relegated Hull and that has turned out well for them as he is still trying to earn silverware. I remember last year when Hull were getting relegated I mentioned would Robertson and Maguire be worth getting only to be laughed at and told we should be looking at Alex Sandro instead.

For example this year I'd much prefer we signed Wilfred Ndidi over say Verratti as I imagine he would have that hunger to succeed. Big name players possibly know if they fail at a club they'll still have plenty of well paying suitors to sign them. Players just below that level are still proving themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ndidi is more of a Matic than a Verratti? Think we need another of both tbh. Looks a great find for Leicester though and we absolutely should be looking at him.

Lord TSC

adox wrote: »

I fear it may never work out for him at Utd. Not writing him off yet but he’s been hugely underwhelming and is an indulgence this squad can’t afford.

Maybe if/when we sign another CM to play alongside Matic he will shine so let’s wait and see but I have serious doubts.

I think the question for Jose is does he want to build the team round Pogba. Because thats what Pogba needs; to be the focal point. You make signings designed around giving him utter creative freedom, and utter freedom from defensive responsibilities. Do that and he'd thrive. But is that what Jose wants? Does he trust Pogba enough to build around him like that?

Or do you build around, for instance, Lukaku who has been working so hard, and has had such a brilliant debut season for us, and thats with our "struggles". Would he rather the money for Pogba with a desire to build around the players who are more willing to fit into Jose's system that has brought him so much success over the years.

In fairness, there's probably a middle ground, one where you build round Pogba and have Lukaku as the final outlet....

Turtwig

Unfortunately if you build around Lukaku you'll be solid and very good. Building around Pogba has more potential for being excellent - and being a Manchester United again. I just don't feel Jose is capable of actually building around Pogba. His formation flexibility is seemingly rather limited. Lukaku centric will be safe and reliable. At some point though to get back to the tier one echelon you'll need to take more risks.
For this reason I feel a director of football with a longer term plan independent of coaches is pivotal for you.

Lord TSC

Turtwig wrote: »

Unfortunately if you build around Lukaku you'll be solid and very good. Building around Pogba has more potential for being excellent - and being a Manchester United again. I just don't feel Jose is capable of actually building around Pogba. His formation flexibility is seemingly rather limited. Lukaku centric will be safe and reliable. At some point though to get back to the tier one echelon you'll need to take more risks.
For this reason I feel a director of football with a longer term plan independent of coaches is pivotal for you.

I disagree to an extent.

Lukaku has 25 goals and 7 assists so far in his debut season. That's in a team that most would agree has not been firing on all cylinders, with zero help down the right flank for him, and a midfield that gets bypassed in many games. So I cant help but feel he would be doing so much better even than that if he had a fully functioning squad in behind him.

Lukaku, in my opinion, has plenty of potential to become a world class striker. If we fixed the supply issues to him, I think he'd be showing that.

Andrew Beef

Jose would be insane to build the team around Pogba; he has been a huge disappointment and doesn’t have the guile or nous to be that player. We should get Woodward on the case and look to extract as much as possible from PSG. We are now in Veron/Di Maria territory.

PhlegmyMoses

I don't think you ever really build around an out and out striker like Lukaku these days anyway. Build around your play maker, whoever that may be

How Soon Is Now

The Pogba situation is very hard to judge. The guy has massive talent that's obvious and he's physically able to dominate players yet he more often then not goes missing.

He shows signs of brilliance and you think where finally getting best of him then he goes missing again. You then see him dancing around in front of camera changing his hair style every week and acting like some kinda superstar and you start to wonder what's going on up stairs with this fella.

Far to often Pogba is the perfect example of the modern day "star" footballer who only does it on the pitch when everything is perfect for him.

He's one those players I love watching when he's on form but I'm starting to loose patience with and if there is a chance he doesn't want to apply himself at the club and we can get huge money for him maybe now is time to take it.

PhlegmyMoses

The Instagram and haircut stuff is a lazy criticism. Ronaldo is preened to within an inch of his life and lives a borderline Michael Jackson lifestyle outside football. Still amazing and applies himself well.

pjohnson

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The Instagram and haircut stuff is a lazy criticism. Ronaldo is preened to within an inch of his life and lives a borderline Michael Jackson lifestyle outside football. Still amazing and applies himself well.

This is where Pogba fails.

Trigger

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The Instagram and haircut stuff is a lazy criticism. Ronaldo is preened to within an inch of his life and lives a borderline Michael Jackson lifestyle outside football. Still amazing and applies himself well.

You can’t judge a player on the pitch by what he does off it, unless it’s something that would play on your mind like martial problems or getting done for match fixing ( )It’s ridiculous. It’s like the same when Memphis was with us, he was getting dogs abuse for the way he dressed and his hair because he wasn’t playing well. The same people then fail to use the same criticism(which is stupid criticism anyways) to the likes of Pogba..

Even look how Zlatan acts off the pitch.. he’s a feckin headcase but people don’t call him out on that because he delivers on the pitch. On pitch form is in no way linked to having a haircut or a dance with a team mate. It’s in no way linked to calling yourself a feckin Lion..

PhlegmyMoses

pjohnson wrote: »

This is where Pogba fails.

For sure, but it's not because he got a haircut

Lord TSC

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The Instagram and haircut stuff is a lazy criticism. Ronaldo is preened to within an inch of his life and lives a borderline Michael Jackson lifestyle outside football. Still amazing and applies himself well.

I find it just comes off as "back in my day...".

That Instagram, dabbing nonsense isn't a Pogba issue. Thats just the way young people are, and because Pogba is a world famous footballer, it feels like he does it more. He doesn't, there's just more attention put on him.

I was in the cinema yesterday and there was a group of 14 year olds beside me; they spent the entire film dabbing and taking selfies. :rolleyes:

Trigger

Lord TSC wrote: »

I find it just comes off as "back in my day...".

That Instagram, dabbing nonsense isn't a Pogba issue. Thats just the way young people are, and because Pogba is a world famous footballer, it feels like he does it more. He doesn't, there's just more attention put on him.

I was in the cinema yesterday and there was a group of 14 year olds beside me; they spent the entire film dabbing and taking selfies. :rolleyes:

Who are you to judge those kids

Lord TSC

astradave wrote: »

Who are you to judge those kids

PhlegmyMoses

Lord TSC wrote: »

I find it just comes off as "back in my day...".

That Instagram, dabbing nonsense isn't a Pogba issue. Thats just the way young people are, and because Pogba is a world famous footballer, it feels like he does it more. He doesn't, there's just more attention put on him.

I was in the cinema yesterday and there was a group of 14 year olds beside me; they spent the entire film dabbing and taking selfies. :rolleyes:

They should be like Robbo, 12 pints, train hard the next morning, play Saturday, and spend half your career injured because you were probably in the red zone for risk due to poor prep.

Not a slight on how good a player Robbo was, more that players have far worse lifestyles outside football than a fresh haircut and a few insta pics.

Andrew Beef

We also can’t ignore the opportunity cost of efforts to build a team around Pogba. Every match spent trying to turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse is one which could have been used to integrate the ultimate succesor to Paul Pogba. The hair/instagram stuff isn’t the issue; it’s his total lack of footballing intelligence.

bangkok

How do ye think the table would look if pep was over utd and jose was over city this season? I think we would be 5-10 points clear at the top

PhlegmyMoses

bangkok wrote: »

How do ye think the table would look if pep was over utd and jose was over city this season? I think we would be 5-10 points clear at the top

Honestly, City didn't look so hot last year with aging fullback, so not sure we have the players for his system in our squad.

bangkok

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Honestly, City didn't look so hot last year with aging fullback, so not sure we have the players for his system in our squad.

Fabien delph is flying at left back for them, wouldnt have rate him before this season

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

Fabien delph is flying at left back for them, wouldnt have rate him before this season

Flying is a fair exagerration

Turtwig

bangkok wrote: »

How do ye think the table would look if pep was over utd and jose was over city this season? I think we would be 5-10 points clear at the top

Pep had multiple advantages.
Tixi and Fernando had his backing they knew his pedigree and philosophical project and supported it from the first day. If they didn't, pep wouldn't have played that way from day one.

City have been planning for Pep. Likely scouting his signings this season with multiple years. Pep had the luxury few, if indeed any, managers in the Epl have he didn't need to win trophies. He just needed to develop and progress the system. They were then able to determine exactly who fit and who didn't. It's likely he would not have this luxury at a club like Chelsea. He also had a luxury few other managers have. He knew exactly what he needed, asked for it and got almost exactly that.

Make no mistake about city hired pep with the intention of him being their Cruyff. They'll back him to the hilt. (Assuming he doesn't go nuts)

I know you guys are their rivals but if you get a chance check out pep first meeting at city. Richard dunne gave a really interesting recount of it.

PhlegmyMoses

And let's get it straight, City have objectively better players. We do not have a player as good as Silva, or De Bruyne or Aguero. And even with them and only having had one proper transfer window, he couldn't get them rocking last season.

I'm not arguing that either is the better manager, just that City had an objectively better base, so parachuting Pep into our squad doesn't mean our squad can play his system.

VW 1

Turtwig wrote: »

I know you guys are their rivals but if you get a chance check out pep first meeting at city. Richard dunne gave a really interesting recount of it.

You got a link or souce to check that out?

Turtwig

Lord TSC wrote: »

I disagree to an extent.

Lukaku has 25 goals and 7 assists so far in his debut season. That's in a team that most would agree has not been firing on all cylinders, with zero help down the right flank for him, and a midfield that gets bypassed in many games. So I cant help but feel he would be doing so much better even than that if he had a fully functioning squad in behind him.

Lukaku, in my opinion, has plenty of potential to become a world class striker. If we fixed the supply issues to him, I think he'd be showing that.

I really really like lukaku. He's such an intelligent guy. The problem is his skill ceiling is lower than the likes of pogba. Phogba showed under Deschamps and Allegri that he has the creative game sense. He's not a defensive player primarily but even at Juve he managed to fill his zone correctly. He's just not a defensive mid.
Mourinho has tried to convert him and couldn't.

At the start of the season, even mid season, pogba was playing really well for you guys in the final third. His confidence right now is simply shot. I think it'd be a huge mistake to let him go. I'd even go as far saying he should be the priority over Jose. Pogba, Lukaku, bailly and DDG are the only players in that squad I would consider man United material. Least, man United as I associate the term.

bangkok

Turtwig wrote: »

Pep had multiple advantages.
Tixi and Fernando had his backing they knew his pedigree and philosophical project and supported it from the first day. If they didn't, pep wouldn't have played that way from day one.

City have been planning for Pep. Likely scouting his signings this season with multiple years. Pep had the luxury few, if indeed any, managers in the Epl have he didn't need to win trophies. He just needed to develop and progress the system. They were then able to determine exactly who fit and who didn't. It's likely he would not have this luxury at a club like Chelsea. He also had a luxury few other managers have. He knew exactly what he needed, asked for it and got almost exactly that.

Make no mistake about city hired pep with the intention of him being their Cruyff. They'll back him to the hilt. (Assuming he doesn't go nuts)

I know you guys are their rivals but if you get a chance check out pep first meeting at city. Richard dunne gave a really interesting recount of it.

Jose has been backed to the hilt as well

pjohnson

Turtwig wrote: »

I really really like lukaku. He's such an intelligent guy. The problem is his skill ceiling is lower than the likes of pogba. Phogba showed under Deschamps and Allegri that he has the creative game sense. He's not a defensive player primarily but even at Juve he managed to fill his zone correctly. He's just not a defensive mid.
Mourinho has tried to convert him and couldn't.

At the start of the season, even mid season, pogba was playing really well for you guys in the final third. His confidence right now is simply shot. I think it'd be a huge mistake to let him go. I'd even go as far saying he should be the priority over Jose. Pogba, Lukaku, bailly and DDG are the only players in that squad I would consider man United material. Least, man United as I associate the term.

He has in his arsé tried to be converted into a holding midfielder. He has been given normal midfield duties and failed. Lukaku, Sanchez, Rashford, Lingard, Mata all far more attacking players have all shown an ability to track a man or fill in temporarily for the good of the team if someone else is out of position. Pogba has not put in effort for the team.

StringerBell

bangkok wrote: »

Jose has been backed to the hilt as well

Classic

Whatsisname

Feels like Groundhog Day in here...once again.

bangkok

StringerBell wrote: »

Classic

You think he hasnt??

pjohnson

Whatsisname wrote: »

Feels like Groundhog Day in here...once again.

Gotta love international break

SScope

bangkok wrote:

Jose has been backed to the hilt as well

Not one person said Jose hasn't been backed to the hilt.

The conversation if you had followed it pointed out the Pep had a higher base than Jose when both took over.

Now add into that the set up at City and the shambles the Jose came to after Moyes and especially Van Gaal gutting the squad and bringing in what for the most part were failures for one reason or another and its clear that Pep had a leg up.

So let's be honest, net spend or any other spending stat doesn't mean the football that we've had to watch at times is excusable. But strides have been made by Jose and the players but there needs to be more from both next season as you can bet your arse city will look to improve.

*watches for the goalposts to move like usual

jayo26

This thread is like sitting down and watching top gear on Dave every day of the week same thing on over and over again.

Vertigo100

jayo26 wrote: »

This thread is like sitting down and watching top gear on Dave every day of the week same thing on over and over again.

Except occasionally top gear is interesting

jayo26

Vertigo100 wrote: »

Except occasionally top gear is interesting

And on that bombshell!!!!!

Trigger

SScope wrote: »

Not one person said Jose hasn't been backed to the hilt.

The conversation if you had followed it pointed out the Pep had a higher base than Jose when both took over.

Now add into that the set up at City and the shambles the Jose came to after Moyes and especially Van Gaal gutting the squad and bringing in what for the most part were failures for one reason or another and its clear that Pep had a leg up.

So let's be honest, net spend or any other spending stat doesn't mean the football that we've had to watch at times is excusable. But strides have been made by Jose and the players but there needs to be more from both next season as you can bet your arse city will look to improve.

*watches for the goalposts to move like usual

SScope

Thanks, that gave me a laugh astra.

What I'd give for even a touch of SCSA attitude in the United team

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/DuncanCastles/status/978015548465401860

Duncan Castles


"Manchester United harden their interest in Celtic defender Kieran Tierney."

SScope

That could be a great signing for us , he seems well capable and his curve for getting better is definitely an upward one.

Seems like he's a good head in his shoulders, has experience in high profile games (Derby's would count Imo). Offers a lot in an attacking sense.

Lord TSC

Left back, yeah?