Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

Anyone basing any opinions on the Jose 3 year thing isn't worth listening tbh
He was head hunted at inter and Porto to join bigger clubs not a problem we will be facing unlike some of our rivals

His 2 stints at Chelsea are the 2 longest since abramovic took over a span of 10 managers

His spell at Real is the 3rd longest of any manager since 1974 a span of 37 managers

Given the climates of the club's he has worked at his record is somewhat impressive which goes to show the success he brings wherever he goes

LuckyLloyd

Ordinary man wrote: »

I must have missed something at the weekend cos i thought it was city who won a trophy but it seems to be the liverpool contingent who are lording it. But as long as it's the same rules when they get dumped out of the european cup then it will be worth putting up with

Seems a bit silly? If Liverpool fail to advance past Roma there will be an element of 'ha ha!', but on an overall level it's been a very good season for #kloppball. Likely to exceed last year's points tally; potentially exceed last year's finishing position; all while handling departure of Coutinho for a massive fee and the extra load of a very very acceptable Champions League campaign.

For sure, you can come in and go 'ha ha' but I don't think there's any fundamental worry or sense of apprehension to be exploited in the same way that large sections of the Utd fanbase are unsure about how its going under Mourinho and where it may head next year. This is *not* a simple case of schadenfreude for the sake of it. We're now moving into unknown territory with Mourinho. He's never had a start like this at a club going all the way back to the early 2000's.

Will I Am Not

Sitting in second, last 16 of CL and beating all the big names in the league.
There’s a lot of progression there too you know...

pjohnson

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Sitting in second, last 16 of CL and beating all the big names in the league.
There’s a lot of progression there too you know...

C'mon Will you know how this thread works by now. One defeat automatically completely undoes all the previous results during the season, aside from the bad results of course they are what matters.

LuckyLloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone basing any opinions on the Jose 3 year thing isn't worth listening tbh
He was head hunted at inter and Porto to join bigger clubs not a problem we will be facing unlike some of our rivals

His 2 stints at Chelsea are the 2 longest since abramovic took over a span of 10 managers

His spell at Real is the 3rd longest of any manager since 1974 a span of 37 managers

Given the climates of the club's he has worked at his record is somewhat impressive which goes to show the success he brings wherever he goes

It's not a problem, no, because the two clubs that could take him off you will not have any interest in him at this stage given his CV. Utd brings the same level of pressure to win for managers, you're on your third manager in a half decade don't forget.

You could decide to point to him lasting ~three years in both Chelsea stints and at Real as a positive. If you consider the realities of the Real reign and second period at Chelsea though, it would certainly worry me. In both cases he fell out with star players and the dressing room had their fill of him months before he eventually walked. Is Pogba the Hazard or Casillas of this drama I wonder? It would be foolish to ignore that pressure cooker media handling style and the grinding nature of the football.

If the league or the European Cup comes next year all will be fine. But consider that between 2002 - 2010 he won six league titles and two European Cups. Over the last 8 years however, he's managed "just" two league titles. You're lying if you're not concerned.

LuckyLloyd

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Sitting in second, last 16 of CL and beating all the big names in the league.
There’s a lot of progression there too you know...

Hey, if Mourinho wasn't Mourinho and was known for patiently building something over a longer time frame there would be plenty to be positive about. But here we are - it's Mourinho.

pjohnson

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's not a problem, no, because the two clubs that could take him off you will not have any interest in him at this stage given his CV. Utd brings the same level of pressure to win for managers, you're on your third manager in a half decade don't forget.

You could decide to point to him lasting ~three years in both Chelsea stints and at Real as a positive. If you consider the realities of the Real reign and second period at Chelsea though, it would certainly worry me. In both cases he fell out with star players and the dressing room had their fill of him months before he eventually walked. Is Pogba the Hazard or Casillas of this drama I wonder? It would be foolish to ignore that pressure cooker media handling style and the grinding nature of the football.

If the league or the European Cup comes next year all will be fine. But consider that between 2002 - 2010 he won six league titles and two European Cups. Over the last 8 years however, he's managed "just" two league titles. You're lying if you're not concerned.

Is Mourinho still to blame for Hazard being p*ss this year? Or is the player just a moody diva?

Cantona's Collars

One of the papers saying City are lining up a £50 million bid for Zaha.

LuckyLloyd

pjohnson wrote: »

Is Mourinho still to blame for Hazard being p*ss this year? Or is the player just a moody diva?

Hazard is a moody diva and Casillas was done. If Mourinho is fed up with a player the player is probably taking the piss and is a problem. You have to handle underperforming star "names" in such a way where you don't bust the dressing room however. The Real and Chelsea situations seemed utterly toxic in that regard.

pjohnson

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hazard is a moody diva and Casillas was done. If Mourinho is fed up with a player the player is probably taking the piss and is a problem. You have to handle underperforming star "names" in such a way where you don't bust the dressing room however. The Real and Chelsea situations seemed utterly toxic in that regard.

Yeah and Hazard seems to still have toxic tendencies under Conte. So I guess Conte can't handle star "names" either then? Changing manager doesnt change the players problem. Remove the player and then things will change. Mourinho leaving didn't stop Hazard spreading Toxicity.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's not a problem, no, because the two clubs that could take him off you will not have any interest in him at this stage given his CV. Utd brings the same level of pressure to win for managers, you're on your third manager in a half decade don't forget.

You could decide to point to him lasting ~three years in both Chelsea stints and at Real as a positive. If you consider the realities of the Real reign and second period at Chelsea though, it would certainly worry me. In both cases he fell out with star players and the dressing room had their fill of him months before he eventually walked. Is Pogba the Hazard or Casillas of this drama I wonder? It would be foolish to ignore that pressure cooker media handling style and the grinding nature of the football.

If the league or the European Cup comes next year all will be fine. But consider that between 2002 - 2010 he won six league titles and two European Cups. Over the last 8 years however, he's managed "just" two league titles. You're lying if you're not concerned.

You want to bet he doesn't last all next season? I'm actually in no way concerned as at the very least he has one a few small trophies and has improved our squad. And after he leave big teams the squads he has built go on to further success.

Maybe your projecting your worries of managers short comings onto united

LuckyLloyd

pjohnson wrote: »

Yeah and Hazard seems to still have toxic tendencies under Conte. So I guess Conte can't handle star "names" either then? Changing manager doesnt change the players problem. Remove the player and then things will change.

Aye, we agree there, but oftentimes the manager is the less valuable asset and considered more expendable. If there was a bust up with Pogba who knows how it would play out. If there was a bust up with a player in such a way that split the dressing room as seemed to be the case at Real and Chelsea, well...

Hazard was electric last year when Chelsea bounced back to win the league. What's happened again this year, I have no idea. Conte's body language hasn't been positive recently in interviews, I'll say that much.

Deleted User wrote: »

You want to bet he doesn't last all next season? I'm actually in no way concerned as at the very least he has one a few small trophies and has improved our squad. And after he leave big teams the squads he has built go on to further success.

Maybe your projecting your worries of managers short comings onto united

I don't think that's the interesting question tbh, nor have I suggested it anywhere. What's more interesting is him staying beyond next season absent of a League Title or European Cup success...

I don't know what the last sentence means? I'm squarely discussing Mourinho, the most fascinating manager of my lifetime watching football, and one of the most polarising.

MagicIRL

I hope that yesterday was a wake-up call in just how bad Valencia is when attacking.

Young offers much more on the left, but he is a converted winger and can't be expected to play 90 every week at his age. United are in dire-straights when it comes to quality defenders. I'd argue that only Baily and Lindelof (who I believe needs time to settle into the league just like Vidic) are the only two who should be starting games when the next season begins.

United also desperately need a talented #10 to play through. It is painful watching the ball go wide only for it to be brought back inside time and time again. Along that same line, United will struggle immensely without a proper RW player. Mata can't do it. I would much rather see him playing as a #10 or as part of a midfield 3 then sitting out wide looking to cut in.

De Gea
New RB - Baily - Lindelof - New LB
Matic - Herrera/New CM?
New RW - Mata/Pogba? - Sanchez
Lukaku

There's also the Pogba question. Undoubtedly talented but he has just not performed over the season. Could that be a acclimatization thing like Lindelof or is it a tactical thing under José?

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

Yeah and Hazard seems to still have toxic tendencies under Conte. So I guess Conte can't handle star "names" either then? Changing manager doesnt change the players problem. Remove the player and then things will change. Mourinho leaving didn't stop Hazard spreading Toxicity.

hazard scored 17 goals last year under conte and has scored 16 this season, hardly call that being toxic

deaddonkey15

I'm not much of a fan of Football365 but they hit the nail on the head here:

All the focus on the flaws in Guardiola’s Manchester City team over the last week have surrounded the ability of opposition teams to spook them by getting into their faces. If that is indeed fair criticism (and it’s worth pointing out that City have comfortably topped an intra-top-six mini-league), it is counteracted by their form against the Premier League rest. Against the clubs in 10th to 20th, City have taken 49 of a possible 51 points.

It is this ruthlessness that most sets City apart from their Manchester neighbours. Manchester United’s struggles against the Premier League rest reflects worse on Mourinho than their lack of ambition against top-six teams. The argument that Guardiola has spent more than Mourinho and so Manchester United could not possibly have coped with City completely falls down when you consider the financially non-elite clubs that United have dropped points against. Mourinho’s team have only taken 41 of a possible 54 points against the teams in 10th to 20th. That’s fewer than Liverpool and Tottenham too.

Mourinho has made Manchester United better this season, but the 13 dropped points against Newcastle, West Brom, Huddersfield, Stoke and Southampton – the bottom three and two promoted clubs – is unacceptable. How can you argue that you need more investment in the playing staff in order to beat significantly weaker teams?

Most disappointingly, United hardly hammered those teams and merely fell foul of misfortune. They had four shots on target against West Brom on Sunday, three away at Huddersfield, four away at Newcastle and three at home to Southampton. Fourteen shots on target in total during four matches in which United dropped 11 points. For the record, City had 33 in the same fixtures.

bangkok

MagicIRL wrote: »

I hope that yesterday was a wake-up call in just how bad Valencia is when attacking.

Young offers much more on the left, but he is a converted winger and can't be expected to play 90 every week at his age. United are in dire-straights when it comes to quality defenders. I'd argue that only Baily and Lindelof (who I believe needs time to settle into the league just like Vidic) are the only two who should be starting games when the next season begins.

United also desperately need a talented #10 to play through. It is painful watching the ball go wide only for it to be brought back inside time and time again. Along that same line, United will struggle immensely without a proper RW player. Mata can't do it. I would much rather see him playing as a #10 or as part of a midfield 3 then sitting out wide looking to cut in.

De Gea
New RB - Baily - Lindelof - New LB
Matic - Herrera/New CM?
New RW - Mata/Pogba? - Sanchez
Lukaku

There's also the Pogba question. Undoubtedly talented but he has just not performed over the season. Could that be a acclimatization thing like Lindelof or is it a tactical thing under José?

the more i watch sanchez play on the left, the less impressed i am with him and its doing nothing for lukaku either.

Lukaku thrives off crosses, down the left our crosses are poor, sanchez and young both have to cut back onto their right foot, down the right valencias crosses are also poor.

i would play sanchez just off lukaku, give him a free role, play lingard on the right and rashford on the left

bangkok

we are already 7-1 for the title for next season :eek:

The second most expensive squad in the league behind City, United should be the biggest challengers to City’s crown but they’re behind Liverpool in the betting and that is purely down to Jose Mourinho’s style of play this season.

They’ve beaten Liverpool and City this season, have wonderful players all over the park and the best goalkeeper in the world in David De Gea – but they’re still not thought of as the team most likely to challenge City by the oddsmakers.

Much of the criticism for Mourinho is down to his frustrating style of play, which he defiantly refuses to change. Paul Pogba has been shackled and new signing Alexis Sanchez needs to find his best position.

It’s a tough question to answer how they can improve with the players they have – Mourinho will no doubt be asking for a bucket load of money to spend again, possibly in the heart of the defence, full back and also a central midfielder to replace Michael Carrick.

They'll end up the best of the rest, albeit by a huge margin, but many will simply say it's a change of footballing philosophy that is needed at Old Trafford rather than wholesale changes of personnel.

PhlegmyMoses

Real and Chelsea are two of the most toxic environments in football where player power reigns supreme and they go through managers on an almost yearly basis.

I'm not comfortbale with them being used for any kind of barometer. In fact, Mourinho is the outlier at those clubs for his longevity, not his brevity.

Also, the league and CL stat in the last 8 years is fair, but context is kinder to him. When he was at Madrid, they were competing against the greatest team that has ever been asembled. He competed admirably, admittedly with a very good team of his own, won a league title and reached 3 CL semi finals in a row, the only real aberration being a loss to a Dortmund side that was definitely weaker than his Madrid team. (For further context, Pep, who has ripped up the league this year and is not considered a "busted flush", hasn't reached a final since 2011 when he had peak Messi in his team.)

Won the league at Chelsea before an ignominious 3rd season exit, before taking over a behemoth of a project at United with copious amounts of money spent but a lot of it wasted. Has won 2 cups at United, has solidfied the team defensively and has been best of the rest with 5 games in the season left to a record setting team. The CL exit was disappointing, no way to dress that up, it needs to be better next year.

All in, I feel like Mourinho's detractors are exceptionally negative towards him and are prtty adept at skimming over any positivity or context that portrays him in even a slightly better light. So it's all doom and gloom, 3rd season syndrome (conveniently ignoring that in the Mourinho 3 year cycle, we should be on course for a league title this year), and pointing to other teams - who themselves were inconsistent until only recently - as some kind of sign that Mourinho hasn't got it anymore.

Demosthenese

Interesting debate how it changes from week to week on Jose. Last week he did a masterclass in 2nd half and showed that United on their day can match anyone. This week, he is a broken man on the verge of getting his P45.

It really wouldn't surprise me if Jose went on to win the league title next year. The way he has United setup and as we all know stubbornly will not change his outlook on the way he plays usually bears fruit at some stage or another - usually year 2 mind - but this is also weighing in on weather Pep can manage another season to emulate this ones feats. United are in 2nd place and dare i say comfortably? This is while playing a very unattractive style, supposedly parking buses all over the top 6 and with star names like Pogba and Sanchez playing their worst in years.

I think that with the way he has his team setup with Matic and *Another playing defencive roles they will always be in with a shout as they will not lose many games and IF they can get better at taking their chances then as usual it'll be a case of winning more than the average.

The biggest difference is the quality he has at United say with comparisons with Chelsea - Drogba was in a different league when compared to Lukaku. Although Lukaku plays alot of games he just isn't in the same bracket as Drogba was. Also, soon as Jose went to Chelsea he spent a bucket load on his backline and bought Carvalho/Ferrera who turned out to be expensive but worth it. In comparison to what United have now in their back 4, it must be the weakest back 4 they've had in a decade. Smalling and Jones are not fit to tie the laces of Rio/Vidic. Ashley young and Valencia will give 100% at fullback but in reality they are not proper fullbacks!

The league can be won if you go by Chelseas latest example with 2 outstanding players in Costa/Hazard - United just need theirs to show up and really come alive. Don't think that Lukaku as mentioned can be a Costa/Drogba but he is willing, then you need 2 of Rashford/Sanchez/Martial/Pogba to live up to their billing.

If Jose can get the best from these players over the course of a season, it'll be a huge achievement even for him to overhaul a team like City. If he goes another season without getting close to the league title that'll be it for him at United. No fans will sit about watching that style of play without success.

Demosthenese

Interesting debate how it changes from week to week on Jose. Last week he did a masterclass in 2nd half and showed that United on their day can match anyone. This week, he is a broken man on the verge of getting his P45.

It really wouldn't surprise me if Jose went on to win the league title next year. The way he has United setup and as we all know stubbornly will not change his outlook on the way he plays usually bears fruit at some stage or another - usually year 2 mind - but this is also weighing in on weather Pep can manage another season to emulate this ones feats. United are in 2nd place and dare i say comfortably? This is while playing a very unattractive style, supposedly parking buses all over the top 6 and with star names like Pogba and Sanchez playing their worst in years.

I think that with the way he has his team setup with Matic and *Another playing defencive roles they will always be in with a shout as they will not lose many games and IF they can get better at taking their chances then as usual it'll be a case of winning more than the average.

The biggest difference is the quality he has at United say with comparisons with Chelsea - Drogba was in a different league when compared to Lukaku. Although Lukaku plays alot of games he just isn't in the same bracket as Drogba was. Also, soon as Jose went to Chelsea he spent a bucket load on his backline and bought Carvalho/Ferrera who turned out to be expensive but worth it. In comparison to what United have now in their back 4, it must be the weakest back 4 they've had in a decade. Smalling and Jones are not fit to tie the laces of Rio/Vidic. Ashley young and Valencia will give 100% at fullback but in reality they are not proper fullbacks!

The league can be won if you go by Chelseas latest example with 2 outstanding players in Costa/Hazard - United just need theirs to show up and really come alive. Don't think that Lukaku as mentioned can be a Costa/Drogba but he is willing, then you need 2 of Rashford/Sanchez/Martial/Pogba to live up to their billing.

If Jose can get the best from these players over the course of a season, it'll be a huge achievement even for him to overhaul a team like City. If he goes another season without getting close to the league title that'll be it for him at United. No fans will sit about watching that style of play without success.

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

we are already 7-1 for the title for next season :eek:

The second most expensive squad in the league behind City, United should be the biggest challengers to City’s crown but they’re behind Liverpool in the betting and that is purely down to Jose Mourinho’s style of play this season.

They’ve beaten Liverpool and City this season, have wonderful players all over the park and the best goalkeeper in the world in David De Gea – but they’re still not thought of as the team most likely to challenge City by the oddsmakers.

Much of the criticism for Mourinho is down to his frustrating style of play, which he defiantly refuses to change. Paul Pogba has been shackled and new signing Alexis Sanchez needs to find his best position.

It’s a tough question to answer how they can improve with the players they have – Mourinho will no doubt be asking for a bucket load of money to spend again, possibly in the heart of the defence, full back and also a central midfielder to replace Michael Carrick.

They'll end up the best of the rest, albeit by a huge margin, but many will simply say it's a change of footballing philosophy that is needed at Old Trafford rather than wholesale changes of personnel.

You probably should put up the link you copy and pasted that from

bangkok

Deleted User wrote: »

You probably should put up the link you copy and pasted that from

https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/who-can-stop-city-next-season/146364

LuckyLloyd

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Real and Chelsea are two of the most toxic environments in football where player power reigns supreme and they go through managers on an almost yearly basis.

I'm not comfortbale with them being used for any kind of barometer. In fact, Mourinho is the outlier at those clubs for his longevity, not his brevity.

Also, the league and CL stat in the last 8 years is fair, but context is kinder to him. When he was at Madrid, they were competing against the greatest team that has ever been asembled. He competed admirably, admittedly with a very good team of his own, won a league title and reached 3 CL semi finals in a row, the only real aberration being a loss to a Dortmund side that was definitely weaker than his Madrid team. (For further context, Pep, who has ripped up the league this year and is not considered a "busted flush", hasn't reached a final since 2011 when he had peak Messi in his team.)

Won the league at Chelsea before an ignominious 3rd season exit, before taking over a behemoth of a project at United with copious amounts of money spent but a lot of it wasted. Has won 2 cups at United, has solidfied the team defensively and has been best of the rest with 5 games in the season left to a record setting team. The CL exit was disappointing, no way to dress that up, it needs to be better next year.

All in, I feel like Mourinho's detractors are exceptionally negative towards him and are prtty adept at skimming over any positivity or context that portrays him in even a slightly better light. So it's all doom and gloom, 3rd season syndrome (conveniently ignoring that in the Mourinho 3 year cycle, we should be on course for a league title this year), and pointing to other teams - who themselves were inconsistent until only recently - as some kind of sign that Mourinho hasn't got it anymore.

Well there's a couple of details worth picking at above:

- Lasting three years at Real may be an outlier, but Del Bosque managed four years (sacked as La Liga winner) and Zidane is coming to the end of his third season also
- That Barca team 2010 - 2012 was great, but the 2013 version got thumped 7 - 0 by Bayern to exit the European Cup. He definitely competed with them, but was definitely second best for his three years there and had fully burnt his bridges by the time he departed
- The typical Mourinho cycle doesn't indicate league success in the third year. He was gone after year 2 at Porto; failed to win the league in year 3 at Chelsea; was gone after year 2 at Inter; failed to win the league in year 3 at Real; was sacked half way through year 3 at Chelsea

As it happens, I'm not a historic Mourinho detractor. Up until 2015 he held an exceptional overall record. The bust out at Chelsea was extreme in its level of awfulness however, and at Utd there could be a hint that his footballing philosophy might be somewhat of a detriment. At least, that's what we're discussing when it comes down to it. Because, for the first time in his career, we're two years in and he isn't smugly talking the press core down.

I think 'lost it' is way too extreme. It's a much more nuanced conversation relative to expectations at Utd and the tolerance of that particular fanbase for relentlessly pragmatic and sometimes outright negative football absent of the big boy prizes.

Liam O

There is a fine team there. Matic, Pogba and Lingard, flanked by Alexis on the right and Martial/Rashford on the left with Lukaku through the middle is a great front 6 that's capable of beating anyone. With a proper set of full backs who can cross and centre backs with a bit of on ball ability they could be fantastic imo as shown at times this season.

Why Sanchez hasn't been played on the right is baffling as left side is stacked and he's reached world class level on the right before.

I'm very disappointed by how yesterday and the Sevilla game went but I think there is the making of a top team there and don't want another season of transition which is what will happen if the team is ripped up yet again in attack.

Liam O

Also fwiw, I don't think Lloyd is on the wind up. Most of his points are valid opinions, even if I disagree with the vast majority of them

Lord TSC

bangkok wrote: »

we are already 7-1 for the title for next season :eek:

The second most expensive squad in the league behind City, United should be the biggest challengers to City’s crown but they’re behind Liverpool in the betting and that is purely down to Jose Mourinho’s style of play this season.

Well, no, bookies aren't making their odds "purely" on "style of play". You're not that naive. Bookies make their odds based on a variety of things, and that Pool are slightly ahead of us currently shows little more than Pool fans are parting with their money a bit quicker, and you can attribute that to them being on a high given their current CL status. Bookies odds are heavily, heavily influenced by punter spendings.

But shocking, really, that the second most expensive team is currently 3rd (and close to second) in the odds. Unsurprisingly, the most expensive team is currently 1st. Plus the odds are without transfer windows for this summer taken on board either, so trying to make an arguement about the odds for 2019, based on incomplete information, is absurd, but no less than I'd expect from you...

Cantona's Collars

2 good halves of football over the last 3 games, Swansea and City.
I was at the Swansea game and for pretty much the whole second half Jose was shouting at the players to push up but for some reason they insisted on dropping off and handling the initiative to Swansea in a game where from a base of fluid football and 2 goals they should have strolled to a 5 or 6 nil win. That second half performance continued into the City game where straight from the offset the players sat back and let City do what they wanted.
Yesterday smacked of them just going through the motions.
I know people don't like comparisons with City or Liverpool but they treat every game the same and put in a similar effort no matter who they play. Ever since Ferguson retired the attitude of "it's only WBA" has prevailed but the work rate needs to be there to beat those 'smaller' teams just as much as it's needed to beat the big boys.
Sure you can have days where you have 30 shots on target and the keeper is like Spiderman but when you rarely test him despite having so much attacking talent then something is wrong.

Demosthenese

Liam O wrote: »

There is a fine team there. Matic, Pogba and Lingard, flanked by Alexis on the right and Martial/Rashford on the left with Lukaku through the middle is a great front 6 that's capable of beating anyone. With a proper set of full backs who can cross and centre backs with a bit of on ball ability they could be fantastic imo as shown at times this season.

Why Sanchez hasn't been played on the right is baffling as left side is stacked and he's reached world class level on the right before.

I'm very disappointed by how yesterday and the Sevilla game went but I think there is the making of a top team there and don't want another season of transition which is what will happen if the team is ripped up yet again in attack.

So with a whole new defence? The 6 attacking players are in another team, with another attack minded manager capable on their day. Not so much though when Jose keeps the shackles on them.

pjohnson

We have no competition for places either at this stage which wont help complacency either.

Will I Am Not

Liam O wrote: »

Also fwiw, I don't think Lloyd is on the wind up. Most of his points are valid opinions, even if I disagree with the vast majority of them

Valid on the back of yesterday’s game. If he posted what he has been posting on Saturday it would have looked silly.

Every time United drop points the football world explodes. These results have been popping up now and again for United. Everyone lost their sh*t after the Newcastle game but that wasn’t long forgotten with what followed.

Bar City every other team is picking up results like that now and again. I don’t expect Liverpool or Spurs to be flawless from now until the end.

Liam O

Demosthenese wrote: »

So with a whole new defence? The 6 attacking players are in another team, with another attack minded manager capable on their day. Not so much though when Jose keeps the shackles on them.

Not necessarily. A new right back and if Shaw is off, left back at a minimum. I rate Bailly and Lindelof, though I realise the latter may never win anyone over after his atrocious start, I've seen him play very well at times this season. If Jones and Rojo could get over injuries they would be good options too. Just with more of a focus of getting the ball forward quickly and accurately and not allowing the opposition to set themselves which has been a huge problem for years.

TheDoc

pjohnson wrote: »

Jose trusted Shaw to come good but he failed miserably. Same with trustinf Pogba. Yet if Jose had/does cut his losses on them I guarantee people will start on about how he can't get the best out of younger players so just sells them. As usual its a Prisonners dilemma for Jose.

If he cuts his losses on Pogba, he shout fully burden criticism against him over not maximising the player.

To write it off as simply the player didnt work out is the sort of incredible Jose defending that makes these discussions so difficult and painful.

Shaw has shown nothing in his play on the field, to indicate hes not fit for purpose or an issue. The only thing we are being fed is rumours of issues behind the scenes, where conveniently fans can't see any answers or examples.

It's where this will always be a problem. Just taking those points Lord raised. For people who believe in the manager it appears obvious inherited squad issues that he has to deal with, or somehow has been shackled with.

Those of us sick of Mourinho, see it as an obvious issue with his management and problems of his own making, or he has failed miserably to address.

PhlegmyMoses

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well there's a couple of details worth picking at above:

- Lasting three years at Real may be an outlier, but Del Bosque managed four years (sacked as La Liga winner) and Zidane is coming to the end of his third season also
- That Barca team 2010 - 2012 was great, but the 2013 version got thumped 7 - 0 by Bayern to exit the European Cup. He definitely competed with them, but was definitely second best for his three years there and had fully burnt his bridges by the time he departed
- The typical Mourinho cycle doesn't indicate league success in the third year. He was gone after year 2 at Porto; failed to win the league in year 3 at Chelsea; was gone after year 2 at Inter; failed to win the league in year 3 at Real; was sacked half way through year 3 at Chelsea

As it happens, I'm not a historic Mourinho detractor. Up until 2015 he held an exceptional overall record. The bust out at Chelsea was extreme in its level of awfulness however, and at Utd there could be a hint that his footballing philosophy might be somewhat of a detriment. At least, that's what we're discussing when it comes down to it. Because, for the first time in his career, we're two years in and he isn't smugly talking the press core down.

I think 'lost it' is way too extreme. It's a much more nuanced conversation relative to expectations at Utd and the tolerance of that particular fanbase for relentlessly pragmatic and sometimes outright negative football absent of the big boy prizes.

Del Bosque left Madrid in 2003 (after winning a title, toxic or what?). From then on, they had 9 managers before Mourinho in 2010. They are on their 3rd manager since Mourinho left 5 years ago, and Zidane is just past the 2 year mark and will likely get the bullet if they crash out to Bayern in the semi, despite delivering a CL a season since he started. it's a toxic environment for sure.

I'm also comfortable with Mourinho being second best to that Barca side. Ferguson was second best to them in Europe as well, and he's the best there ever was, in my opinion. By 2013 Barca were probably just coming to the end of their journey, manager and some of their players, and needed to be refreshed. They got spanked by Bayern but still did a record setting 100 point season in La Liga. I mean, asking any manager to do 101 points seems unreasonable.

When I spoke about the 3 year cycle, the general crux of the argument is that in year 1 he stabilises, year 2 he wins the league, year 3 he falls out with everybody and ****s off. So if we are to adhere to this, we should be just about to pick up the league title, not City. Basically, it's a pretty lazy point usually made by people who don't like him.

From my point of view, Mourinho came to United when we were in serious crisis. There was not one position where you thought you didn't need to improve it to become competitve in Europe and the league, barring the goalkeeper. He has spent the money better than any of the post-Ferguson managers, yet he is still left with a patchwork defence consisting of failed wingers, never was centre backs, a non-existent midfield that he is adding to and improving year-on-year and a bunch of young lads who were being relied on to create moments of magic in the absence of any superstars in the side, barring an aging and finished at the top level Wayne Rooney.

The rebuild job Mourinho took on is even bigger than after Ferguson because of the level of waste that happened in the immediate aftermath of him leaving. The money spent blinds people a bit and the argument of, "well you spent X so you should be Y", really comes into focus when you go through the transfer one by one and realise that only really Mourinho has anything like a positive hit-rate for signings.

The football might not be pretty at times, although it has often been prettier than his detractors will let on and it has been infinitely prettier than anything Moyes and LVG served up, but the results are going the direction we want them to. If we can figure out a way to smash the bottom teams, something City only became good at this year and Liverpool since the turn of the year, and we make some more good signings next year, particularly in defence, we might just be having a different conversation about all of this come next April.

TheDoc

Like it just can't be confused here. The issues, our title challenge, it's nothing to do with City or any top six rival.

We have dropped 13 points this season against Newcastle, West Brom, Huddersfield, Stoke and Southampton.

Discussions around money spent, his excuses and his mouthpieces excuses about money and transfer spend, quality. It's just all bollox. We simply cannot lose sight that we are the cause of our own collapse. Nothing to do with rivals. We dropped 13 points against teams there is simply no excuse for not putting away. A few million here or there isn't going to make a difference, the quality and playing staff are there. They just havn't being maximised.

Feel sometimes reading people put too much focus on rivals or City and do this like correlation between the two, or rivals. We play City twice a year, we beat them once. Class.

Leagues are won or lost on the games outside of the top 6, and we made an absolute mess of it again this year.

LuckyLloyd

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Valid on the back of yesterday’s game. If he posted what he has been posting on Saturday it would have looked silly.

Every time United drop points the football world explodes. These results have been popping up now and again for United. Everyone lost their sh*t after the Newcastle game but that wasn’t long forgotten with what followed.

Bar City every other team is picking up results like that now and again. I don’t expect Liverpool or Spurs to be flawless from now until the end.

The last two Utd games don't really affect the overall analysis. Does winning an FA Cup really change the outlook much either way? There's two seasons in the bag now, so there's plenty to talk about irrespective of the vagaries of individual games.

Of course most fans get very affected by the last result, hence the jubilation the previous weekend and the despondency yesterday. But, as per the market, the expectation of the last two games was a win and a loss so the end outcome is the same.

TheDoc

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Sitting in second, last 16 of CL and beating all the big names in the league.
There’s a lot of progression there too you know...

And it gets lost with the constant two steps back, the problems that just keep grumbling on with no solutions or even hope.

Your absolutely right. There has been progression this season. And for a part it was good.

But the mood has long since changed, we have been slogging and grinding, and our title challenge capitulated so early. So it can be hard to try keep any sort of positivity and reflect on this as a successful season.

We hit some really good form, got some really nice results, got an absolute mood inflation from Sanchez signing, then dumped ourselves out of the CL, absolutely crushing all momentum and positivity.

And it keeps happening. Just further entrenches the mood that this team is going to consistently let you down, and expectations need to be changed by the players and manager, not the other way round.

I think they really need to earn back serious faith and trust and belief from the fans.

This season when it wraps up I know for me will be probably deemed under performance. That sort of gap behind City is shambolic. And an FA cup really won't cover that up.

Will I Am Not

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The last two Utd games don't really affect the overall analysis. Does winning an FA Cup really change the outlook much either way? There's two seasons in the bag now, so there's plenty to talk about irrespective of the vagaries of individual games.

Of course most fans get very affected by the last result, hence the jubilation the previous weekend and the despondency yesterday. But, as per the market, the expectation of the last two games was a win and a loss so the end outcome is the same.

Up until yesterday the second half of the league season has been excellent. If there’s a run of poor results now it will be a different story but one game isn’t going to undo all that.

PhlegmyMoses

TheDoc wrote: »

Like it just can't be confused here. The issues, our title challenge, it's nothing to do with City or any top six rival.

We have dropped 13 points this season against Newcastle, West Brom, Huddersfield, Stoke and Southampton.

Discussions around money spent, his excuses and his mouthpieces excuses about money and transfer spend, quality. It's just all bollox. We simply cannot lose sight that we are the cause of our own collapse. Nothing to do with rivals. We dropped 13 points against teams there is simply no excuse for not putting away. A few million here or there isn't going to make a difference, the quality and playing staff are there. They just havn't being maximised.

Feel sometimes reading people put too much focus on rivals or City and do this like correlation between the two, or rivals. We play City twice a year, we beat them once. Class.

Leagues are won or lost on the games outside of the top 6, and we made an absolute mess of it again this year.

We actually made a mess of all games last year, right through the league. It's why we ended in 7th. We have won against every team in the league at least once this season, the only team not to win a league to do so. There is improvement there if you want to see it.

As for the playing staff being there, go do out a first XI and compare it with the top teams in Europe. I reckon you'll start to really notice the difference once you get past the goalkeeper and onto the defence.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Like it just can't be confused here. The issues, our title challenge, it's nothing to do with City or any top six rival.

We have dropped 13 points this season against Newcastle, West Brom, Huddersfield, Stoke and Southampton.

Discussions around money spent, his excuses and his mouthpieces excuses about money and transfer spend, quality. It's just all bollox. We simply cannot lose sight that we are the cause of our own collapse. Nothing to do with rivals. We dropped 13 points against teams there is simply no excuse for not putting away. A few million here or there isn't going to make a difference, the quality and playing staff are there. They just havn't being maximised.

Feel sometimes reading people put too much focus on rivals or City and do this like correlation between the two, or rivals. We play City twice a year, we beat them once. Class.

Leagues are won or lost on the games outside of the top 6, and we made an absolute mess of it again this year.

City are having a record breaking season, of course us not competing for a title challenge has everything to do with that, sometimes a team playing well will have even greater results, 2 team's in the one league doing something out of the ordinary is extremely unlikely. City will have regression to the mean next year most likely and a points tally similar to the one we have would be in a race but hopefully we improve our pisition next year.

Asking for a near perfect season is deluisionary

TheDoc

Demosthenese wrote: »

Interesting debate how it changes from week to week on Jose. Last week he did a masterclass in 2nd half and showed that United on their day can match anyone. This week, he is a broken man on the verge of getting his P45.

Does beg the question doesn't it. What did he do at half time, if anything at all, or did the players just step it up themselves.

For a guy who loves blowing his own trumpet, he didn't give much away after that game. If anything he made himself look an absolute fool with things like the midfield playing good and stuff. **** that any fan would tear the neck of him for, we can all see what is happening, we don't need lies.

Yet after the game, players talking about other players. Reports of the rallying cry from players. Manager didn't feature anywhere.

Thought it was pointed at the time, and didn't want to mention cause I didn't want it to be seen as a Mourinho barb after a serious positive result, but it was so blatantly obvious, with Pogba heaping praise on Carrick, that Pogba - Mourinho is broken.

At this point I'm probably going to be surprised seeing them both start next season.

Just entirely seperate now that I think about, that ****e he was doing yesterday talking about 8 titles. Can someone pull him aside and have a word. For someone "claimed" to be brilliant in the press arena and everything planned and calcukated, having him as manager now and seeing him week to week that's evidently bollox.

He is a pure hothead, a crazy egotistical, defensive weirdo who is really not getting it. Seems every few weeks he drops a quote or press conference that further alienates large quarters of the fanbase. He literally would not stop banging on about the titles he has won yesterday...

pjohnson

TheDoc wrote: »

And it gets lost with the constant two steps back, the problems that just keep grumbling on with no solutions or even hope.

Your absolutely right. There has been progression this season. And for a part it was good.

But the mood has long since changed, we have been slogging and grinding, and our title challenge capitulated so early. So it can be hard to try keep any sort of positivity and reflect on this as a successful season.

We hit some really good form, got some really nice results, got an absolute mood inflation from Sanchez signing, then dumped ourselves out of the CL, absolutely crushing all momentum and positivity.

And it keeps happening. Just further entrenches the mood that this team is going to consistently let you down, and expectations need to be changed by the players and manager, not the other way round.

I think they really need to earn back serious faith and trust and belief from the fans.

This season when it wraps up I know for me will be probably deemed under performance. That sort of gap behind City is shambolic. And an FA cup really won't cover that up.

While I disagree with the anti Mourinho stuff and think its from a point of bias I generally find you a well thought out poster who is normally able to present his opinion well but surely you realise how useless the boldened part of your post is?

TheDoc

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

We actually made a mess of all games last year, right through the league. It's why we ended in 7th. We have won against every team in the league at least once this season, the only team not to win a league to do so. There is improvement there if you want to see it.

As for the playing staff being there, go do out a first XI and compare it with the top teams in Europe. I reckon you'll start to really notice the difference once you get past the goalkeeper and onto the defence.

I did that recently here in direct comparison with City. Wasn't much comeback on it, so it was either too long to read or no one cared.

But the point I was making was on paper, pure player vs player, our squad is as good as City. The issue, and its where these comparisons have issues, is the manager. We all look at Pobga now and compare against De Bruyne and its "omg you cant compare, De Bruyne is just miles better".

The point being, it's the coaching and managers influencing that. De Bruyne wasn't anywhere near Pogbas level, when Pogba was at Juve. And it's totally changed.

And you really could extend that across so many teams in Europe. It's an impossible metric, but the managers influence is massive, the coaching is massive, the confidence, the system, the trust. We arn't anywhere near maximising our players ability in our squad, which leads to so many consistency issues.

And like I said of course there is improvement. But that still doesn't mean it has been a success, or a good job.

LuckyLloyd

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

When I spoke about the 3 year cycle, the general crux of the argument is that in year 1 he stabilises, year 2 he wins the league, year 3 he falls out with everybody and ****s off. So if we are to adhere to this, we should be just about to pick up the league title, not City. Basically, it's a pretty lazy point usually made by people who don't like him.

Well I don't know that such analysis is lazy. He's 55, he took the Porto job 16 years ago and has gone through five job changes since. He's never had a full fourth year at a club as a manager or a player. He was assistant at Barca for four years between 1996 - 2000, his longest time in any one place. The fact he's never been in it (or had the option to be in it) for the long haul anywhere is surely of constant relevancy when discussing Mourinho at Utd? Just as everything about him - his footballing philosophy; his method of building squads; his media handling style is not in keeping with Utd's ethos as a club.

It is true to say that he had more of a rebuilding job on his hands here than in any other previous role. That just means we're moving into uncharted territory for Mourinho. It's going to involve his longest timeline to winning it all; it's going to involve the most minutes on the pitch from in house academy prospects; it's going to involve him not falling out with the media / the decision makers at a club / the players for a longer time period than every before. That's why this conversation is a perfectly valid and normal one: are the signs strongly there that he's going to do things he's never managed before?

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The football might not be pretty at times, although it has often been prettier than his detractors will let on and it has been infinitely prettier than anything Moyes and LVG served up, but the results are going the direction we want them to. If we can figure out a way to smash the bottom teams, something City only became good at this year and Liverpool since the turn of the year, and we make some more good signings next year, particularly in defence, we might just be having a different conversation about all of this come next April.

That's one side of the argument. It's too bullish for my tastes, but it's a basis on which to proceed in confidence I suppose. There's just been a lot of games thus far where it looks muddled, ponderous and disjointed. The Sevilla tie is a bellweather from a tactical perspective - what the approach was out there; what it was when the game hung in the balance at Old Trafford; how Nzonzi and Banega had so much time; how the subs and adjustments failed to move the needle. But it's perfectly reasonable to say that, well, that's just two games.

I'm in like, whichever way this goes next year will define his legacy in many respects. If it doesn't pan out you'd wonder what his options will look like and how his stock will be perceived. The key thing is you couldn't possibly have imagined him being questioned to this extent this time 8 year's ago.

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

City are having a record breaking season, of course us not competing for a title challenge has everything to do with that, sometimes a team playing well will have even greater results, 2 team's in the one league doing something out of the ordinary is extremely unlikely. City will have regression to the mean next year most likely and a points tally similar to the one we have would be in a race but hopefully we improve our pisition next year.

Asking for a near perfect season is deluisionary

City tangibly impact our results and points twice a year. Two games.
They intangibly set the precedent and the standard achieving what they are.

Our title challenge imploded because we tripped over our own feet. It has nothing to do with City. Absolutely nothing.

Seasons are seasons. They are in isolation each year. Totally fine trying to gather data or comparisons from years gone by, but there is variants in every single season that need to be managed. Correlating other years is kind of not relevant, and even you projecting next year is silly. You have no idea what will happen, what will take place week to week. For all we know this is the start of the new trend, the new expectation.

There was a rake of atrocious teams in the league this year, so many poor teams, at least 10. And we blew 13 points. Proper fumbled 13 points.

It sure could and can look different, but we need to stop causing our own collapses.

No one is asking for a perfect season, it's never happened. That's obvious and no one is asking for it. But what you do not expect from a title challenger, is that volume of dropped points against teams in the bottom half. When you then throw into the mix the volatile nature of the fixtures against rivals.

TheDoc

pjohnson wrote: »

While I disagree with the anti Mourinho stuff and think its from a point of bias I generally find you a well thought out poster who is normally able to present his opinion well but surely you realise how useless the boldened part of your post is?

Why would it be useless? Or what is the issue with it?

There is acceptance or validity to our points gap to City?

jacool

Lord TSC wrote: »

Well, no, bookies aren't making their odds "purely" on "style of play". You're not that naive. Bookies make their odds based on a variety of things, and that Pool are slightly ahead of us currently shows little more than Pool fans are parting with their money a bit quicker, and you can attribute that to them being on a high given their current CL status. Bookies odds are heavily, heavily influenced by punter spendings.

You are spot on.
Over two-thirds of the bets placed for next season are on City and Liverpool.

LuckyLloyd

pjohnson wrote: »

While I disagree with the anti Mourinho stuff and think its from a point of bias I generally find you a well thought out poster who is normally able to present his opinion well but surely you realise how useless the boldened part of your post is?

I tend to agree with this point. The average for league winners over the past 10 completed seasons is 86.8pts. You want to be moving past the mid 80 point mark to be in the mix. Utd can still hit 86 points, so they might not end up a mile off a reasonable title challenging mark. By contrast, City require a mere 8 of the remaining 15 points they have to play for to set a new finishing marker (GD accounted for) since 1992.

Cantona's Collars

The expectations at United are at the bare minimum challenging for the title if not winning the thing, going into the latter stages of Champions League and possibly a domestic cup.
Yes City have had an exceptional season but United are expected to be up there challenging them,no offense to other clubs but United should not be happy with UCL qualification and a possible FA cup.
Even in Ferguson's last season the football was functional at best but he expected to win every game and had that instilled in the players. Some of the lads now just don't seem to have that hunger.
In the grand scheme of things the defeat yesterday had little effect on the season as City were winning the league anyway but it was the manner of the performance that was so annoying and we've seen too many of those over the last 5 years or so.

TheDoc

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm in like, whichever way this goes next year will define his legacy in many respects. If it doesn't pan out you'd wonder what his options will look like and how his stock will be perceived. The key thing is you couldn't possibly have imagined him being questioned to this extent this time 8 year's ago.

His legacy will likely always remain as being one of the best managers in world football of his generation, or probably of all time in terms of achievements. And really that is where the measurement comes.

But like, when you look at football management now, there is so clearly a sell by date on all managers. Wether we or they want to accept it is another thing, but there just a point in time where the magic goes, the ability wanes and they just arn't as good as they used to be.

We all seem to be able to accept that with players, I'm not sure why it's not something with managers. "He might just be losing it" is never really anything you hear. Even with Wenger, you don't hear any kind of "He's just lost it".

Wenger has lost it for so long, like what set him apart, his skillset, just gone. But we don't accept it, it's 101 different reasons and excuses apart from just, he's not that good anymore.

You'll never know with Jose until he finishes, but who knows, might look back and his United time will be just, yeah, he wasn't as good as he was. Or if he goes onto great achievements elsewhere then it was something in the environment or whatever.

But surely there is the same possibility for managers to just not be as good anymore, like there is with players. Allardyce hit his peak with Bolton and has never been as good since. Moyes had a spell with Everton that was brilliant and he was never as good again. Guardiola hit crazy heighs with Barcalona, who is to say he may never be as good again. Zidane delivered the clubs first double in their history in his second season in charge. He may never be as good again.

Theoretical waffle from me a bit, but something I was thinking recently looking at the likes of Allardyce, Pardew, Moyes, Hughes among others. Why can't we ever quantify a manager, basically being done or finished or clearly on the wane, and just call it that.

*The above is not exclusive to Jose, I'm on lunch, you're unfortunately subject to my waffle

PhlegmyMoses

TheDoc wrote: »

Does beg the question doesn't it. What did he do at half time, if anything at all, or did the players just step it up themselves.

For a guy who loves blowing his own trumpet, he didn't give much away after that game. If anything he made himself look an absolute fool with things like the midfield playing good and stuff. **** that any fan would tear the neck of him for, we can all see what is happening, we don't need lies.

Yet after the game, players talking about other players. Reports of the rallying cry from players. Manager didn't feature anywhere.

Thought it was pointed at the time, and didn't want to mention cause I didn't want it to be seen as a Mourinho barb after a serious positive result, but it was so blatantly obvious, with Pogba heaping praise on Carrick, that Pogba - Mourinho is broken.

At this point I'm probably going to be surprised seeing them both start next season.

Just entirely seperate now that I think about, that ****e he was doing yesterday talking about 8 titles. Can someone pull him aside and have a word. For someone "claimed" to be brilliant in the press arena and everything planned and calcukated, having him as manager now and seeing him week to week that's evidently bollox.

He is a pure hothead, a crazy egotistical, defensive weirdo who is really not getting it. Seems every few weeks he drops a quote or press conference that further alienates large quarters of the fanbase. He literally would not stop banging on about the titles he has won yesterday...

Smalling actually said that Mourinho gave a pretty rousing speech about not being the clowns at City's party, a speech he spoke about giving the Chelsea players when they played Liverpool in 2014.