Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt. 2

pjohnson

TheDoc wrote: »

Why would it be useless? Or what is the issue with it?

There is acceptance or validity to our points gap to City?

Well your previous answer is your excuse but anyway. But simply because you complain we are too far behind the record breaking league winners. You are therefore probably expecting us to beat our previous highest ever points finish (which had us champions) to meet this lofty criteria you have decided should be the minimum.

pjohnson

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I tend to agree with this point. The average for league winners over the past 10 completed seasons is 86.8pts. You want to be moving past the mid 80 point mark to be in the mix. Utd can still hit 86 points, so they might not end up a mile off a reasonable title challenging mark. By contrast, City require a mere 8 of the remaining 15 points they have to play for to set a new finishing marker (GD accounted for) since 1992.

Bingo. Unrealistic demands being used as a critique will always be daft.

TheDoc

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Smalling actually said that Mourinho gave a pretty rousing speech about not being the clowns at City's party, a speech he spoke about giving the Chelsea players when they played Liverpool in 2014.

Thought Smalling said that was before the game.

beno619

Wow. 40 odd pages since yesterday.

Could someone summarise the last 24 hours ?

Yesterday was pretty pathetic from all involved. Martial looked okay which was the only positive.

LuckyLloyd

Agree with TheDoc fully on that. The likes of Ferguson are so rare - that ability to still be doing it into the early 70's (or a retirement of your own choosing). Van Gaal is an excellent example of that too - his period at Utd was disappointing relative to things he had done earlier in his career.

LuckyLloyd

pjohnson wrote: »

Bingo. Unrealistic demands being used as a critique will always be daft.

Yep, agreed. Worth noting though that - based on Utd's ppg average through 33 games - they project to finish on 82 points. A big improvement over last year, yes; but certainly short of a title challenging total in a normal season.

Lord TSC

pjohnson wrote: »

Well your previous answer is your excuse but anyway. But simply because you complain we are too far behind the record breaking league winners. You are therefore probably expecting us to beat our previous highest ever points finish (which had us champions) to meet this lofty criteria you have decided should be the minimum.

Which, btw, would be a tough ask if we had finished anywhere close to second in the last few years since Fergie left.

Thinking we were going to jump from fighting for a CL spot right up to not just a title challange but a literally historic title challange, is deranged.

I get that there's plenty to bang on about Jose about but trying to hold against him that we haven't leapt from 6,4,5,7 up to "1st without ever losing a game" is an absurd expectation.

When there is more then a season of Jose not winning something you might then be able to start considering he is past it but until then it's all pie in the sky. And citing (indirectly) managers who have won far less in recent and overall as the future is premature.

TheDoc

pjohnson wrote: »

Well your previous answer is your excuse but anyway. But simply because you complain we are too far behind the record breaking league winners. You are therefore probably expecting us to beat our previous highest ever points finish (which had us champions) to meet this lofty criteria you have decided should be the minimum.

Well this is kind of my problem.

"City are going to set records, what can we do".

Do people actually look at this years league and think it actually competitive. People are aware of how close the relegation battle was for most of the season. There is easily 10-11 pretty poor teams this season. Where there is typically maybe a mid table group that can go either way in a season, there was a pretty definitive gap this year in terms of rubbish teams.

Like, I don't always get this comparison to other seasons and it being some barometer. Every season is unique, with its own landscape. You should really only be taking it on the merits in front of you.

We blew 13 points against dross opposition. If we didn't, we would be what? 3 points behind. Still in the hunt. And if we lost out, but set a record for ourselves? Then fine. Feel sorry for ourselves and have all the excuses in the world.

Sorry man, but if I just call a spade a spade probably think it's just pathetic all the excuses we make for ourselves or for others, when we are sitting 16 points behind in second, and claiming it some "good thing". I'll be interested to see how we finish mind you. Leicester won the league with 81 points. We are ten behind that figure with 15 points to play. Considering people love comparing other season and drawing correlation, how would we explain that one

My expectations are nothing other than what the club have set for me in 21 years support. Challenging for titles and winning.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yep, agreed. Worth noting though that - based on Utd's ppg average through 33 games - they project to finish on 82 points. A big improvement over last year, yes; but certainly short of a title challenging total in a normal season.

But based on our improvement ppg from season to season we could break records ourselves next year. This game is fun

Lord TSC

This was up on Reddit. Reminder that the 2017-2018 stats are with five games less too.

LuckyLloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

But based on our improvement ppg from season to season we could break records ourselves next year. This game is fun

Not sure what that means, but okay.

Average was 1.82ppg last year; 2.15ppg thus far this year. Needless to say, every further point of improvement is harder gained than the last one.

It can be done though, #guardiolaball is proof of it. City have gone from 2.05ppg last year to 2.64ppg this year. Which is breathtaking really.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Well this is kind of my problem.

"City are going to set records, what can we do".

Do people actually look at this years league and think it actually competitive. People are aware of how close the relegation battle was for most of the season. There is easily 10-11 pretty poor teams this season. Where there is typically maybe a mid table group that can go either way in a season, there was a pretty definitive gap this year in terms of rubbish teams.

Like, I don't always get this comparison to other seasons and it being some barometer. Every season is unique, with its own landscape. You should really only be taking it on the merits in front of you.

We blew 13 points against dross opposition. If we didn't, we would be what? 3 points behind. Still in the hunt. And if we lost out, but set a record for ourselves? Then fine. Feel sorry for ourselves and have all the excuses in the world.

Sorry man, but if I just call a spade a spade probably think it's just pathetic all the excuses we make for ourselves or for others, when we are sitting 16 points behind in second, and claiming it some "good thing". I'll be interested to see how we finish mind you. Leicester won the league with 81 points. We are ten behind that figure with 15 points to play. Considering people love comparing other season and drawing correlation, how would we explain that one

My expectations are nothing other than what the club have set for me in 21 years support. Challenging for titles and winning.

Your thinking about things too much in isolation you need to look at the bigger picture, hell even look back at the odds of all them games and calculate the chances of winning them I'm sure it's not all that high.

Also every year the premier league gets called rubbish but you have last year's champions down in 5th the future united manager in 4th and the current champions league winners (minus 2 rounds) in 3rd it ain't as easy as your trying to make out

Drumpot

God, this place turns to hyperbolic overload whenever the team loses or plays poorly.

For 3 seasons 2004-2006 united failed to win the league with SAF. They won an FA cup and a league cup during that period while SAF tried to rebuild the team. Ferguson was in his early 60s at that time and many people had written him off as the new kid on the block, Jose, had made SAF management style obsolete. Also, Chelsea were spending more which made SAF job look even more daunting!

Jose is still in his 50s and only led a team to the league title 4 seasons ago.

Has Jose lost his magic? Maybe but there is little evidence to back it up. For all the complaining about us being so far behind city it’s the best the club has done since SAF retired. It’s funny how quickly some fans forget the three seasons under Moyes and LVG.

You can ignore the financial elephant in the room all you want but City have been outspending united by gargantuan amounts for a decade. This compounded investment adds up and the quality available between both pools will reflect the resources invested.

There are also question marks over United transfer strategy for 5 years. Funny how other top spending clubs can keep themselves there or thereabouts but some united fans are happy to blame whichever manager happens to be at the club any given season. The club is involved in targeting players and choosing players. Managers get to give input and give their own list of preferred players but the club makes the call and the manager falls into line with whatever he gets.

In terms of performances and style of football, I don’t like it anymore then anybody else. However my expectations are lower and my priorities are long term. I see last and this season as stepping stones of progress. The awful performances and football is a bi-product of having a different manager with a different agenda.

Pep was given a stronger , settled squad and more resources. Jose was given a disjointed under performing squad and has had less resources. I believe a successful transfer window will see another improvement that will mean less days like Seville and West Brom. It will also mean more ruthless effective wins.

Jose has beaten Pep before and I think, for all the complaining about him, he’s the most proven capable manager of beating him again.

pjohnson

TheDoc wrote: »

Well this is kind of my problem.

"City are going to set records, what can we do".

Do people actually look at this years league and think it actually competitive. People are aware of how close the relegation battle was for most of the season. There is easily 10-11 pretty poor teams this season. Where there is typically maybe a mid table group that can go either way in a season, there was a pretty definitive gap this year in terms of rubbish teams.

Like, I don't always get this comparison to other seasons and it being some barometer. Every season is unique, with its own landscape. You should really only be taking it on the merits in front of you.

We blew 13 points against dross opposition. If we didn't, we would be what? 3 points behind. Still in the hunt. And if we lost out, but set a record for ourselves? Then fine. Feel sorry for ourselves and have all the excuses in the world.

Sorry man, but if I just call a spade a spade probably think it's just pathetic all the excuses we make for ourselves or for others, when we are sitting 16 points behind in second, and claiming it some "good thing". I'll be interested to see how we finish mind you. Leicester won the league with 81 points. We are ten behind that figure with 15 points to play. Considering people love comparing other season and drawing correlation, how would we explain that one

My expectations are nothing other than what the club have set for me in 21 years support. Challenging for titles and winning.

Practically every year the champions drop points to "dross" teams. You yourself agreed a 100% season is unrealistic.


So you are still concerned with this "points behind" metric. Ok I try explaining the other way. The good news for your argument is that If I remember correctly we were 15 pts behind Leicester the year they won it and 18 pts behind Chelsea the year before that when they won. So you can claim we are no better now than the last few years if you want. Now the bad news for this metric is we were 6th the year Leicester won and 5th the year Chelsea won. So the year this "points behind" metric was smallest we had our WORST league position.

Anyone who stands on the "points behind" hill is clutching at straws. They either dont care about actual league position such is the desperation to beat Jose/undermine this season or they genuinely expected a record breaking failed title challenge.

Cantona's Collars

Why can't Jose use Pogba as his Lampard. That fella was unbelievable arriving late into the box and getting goals. We've seen glimpses of that now and again from Pogba and it's very effective but happens far too rarely. Pogba would be ideal at this,his size,power and physicality alone would scare any defence.
I posted a while ago that changes are going to be made in the the Summer and a lot of the leftovers of the previous regimes will be gone. Hopefully we'll see a "Jose team" next season and not just a Mish mash of bits and pieces of 4 different teams going back to Ferguson's time right through Moyes and LVG,many of which aren't up to scratch.

bangkok

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Why can't Jose use Pogba as his Lampard. That fella was unbelievable arriving late into the box and getting goals. We've seen glimpses of that now and again from Pogba and it's very effective but happens far too rarely. Pogba would be ideal at this,his size,power and physicality alone would scare any defence.
I posted a while ago that changes are going to be made in the the Summer and a lot of the leftovers of the previous regimes will be gone. Hopefully we'll see a "Jose team" next season and not just a Mish mash of bits and pieces of 4 different teams going back to Ferguson's time right through Moyes and LVG,many of which aren't up to scratch.

that chelsea team was much more balanced than our team, had ashley cole left back, had proper wingers and a world class striker who would bully players, lampard also had a stable midfield beside him to allow him to flourish, we are miles away from that

TheDoc

Lord TSC wrote: »

Which, btw, would be a tough ask if we had finished anywhere close to second in the last few years since Fergie left.

Thinking we were going to jump from fighting for a CL spot right up to not just a title challange but a literally historic title challange, is deranged.

I get that there's plenty to bang on about Jose about but trying to hold against him that we haven't leapt from 6,4,5,7 up to "1st without ever losing a game" is an absurd expectation.

The critique isn't that he didn't win the league. only one team can ever win it.

The critique is the gap. It was a feeble challenge, if any. I'm just portraying the belief that excusing it because of City, is not really relevant. You play City twice.

They play the same teams we do. The same cannon fodder that needs to be brushed aside. Typically the title winners are the ones that just slaughter those teams.

So I'm just saying, while there is so much talked about City in correlation to us, excuses, money spent, their players, what Pep took over. It's all irrelevant.

We tripped ourselves up this year, just like we did last year. And pretty much have done consistently since Ferguson left.

yourdeadwright

One thing that sticks out from the outside is even with a huge amount of fantastic attacking talent is Uniteds attack is not fluid and never looks it clicking,
Sanchez, Martial,Rashford,Mata, Linguard, Lakaku surely they should look exciting and rapid at the top end,
They had a 4 or 5 game spell at the start of the season where it was electric and then it disappeared , 
Is it due to the manger ? Are they  lacking something like a team spirit ? or an attacking plan
For some reason they are just not gelling like the should,
A scary thing is they are second without ever looking like a team, if a manger can get them playing like a team they could challenge with the same bunch of players .

Cantona's Collars

bangkok wrote: »

that chelsea team was much more balanced than our team, had ashley cole left back, had proper wingers and a world class striker who would bully players, lampard also had a stable midfield beside him to allow him to flourish, we are miles away from that

Pogba should be used to give other teams a problem,not ours by shoehorning him into a position that doesn't suit his skillset.Look what he did to City in that role.
You are right about the fullbacks though, Valencia is functional but that's it,as an attacking threat he'd break your heart watching him.

bangkok

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Pogba should be used to give other teams a problem,not ours by shoehorning him into a position that doesn't suit his skillset.Look what he did to City in that role.
You are right about the fullbacks though, Valencia is functional but that's it,as an attacking threat he'd break your heart watching him.

yep, Pogba is devastating going forward but for much of the season he has been shoehorned into a position he is not comfortable with and now his confidence is shot.

Left back should be a priority signing this summer imo. need some proper width and a player who can overlap sanchez or martial and put in a first time cross

pjohnson

In other news our U18's won their league over the weekend. Our U23's are about to get relegated however.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

In other news our U18's won their league over the weekend. Our U23's are about to get relegated however.

Great players on that u18 team, stupid Jose ruining our u23s

TheDoc

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Why can't Jose use Pogba as his Lampard. That fella was unbelievable arriving late into the box and getting goals. We've seen glimpses of that now and again from Pogba and it's very effective but happens far too rarely. Pogba would be ideal at this,his size,power and physicality alone would scare any defence.
I posted a while ago that changes are going to be made in the the Summer and a lot of the leftovers of the previous regimes will be gone. Hopefully we'll see a "Jose team" next season and not just a Mish mash of bits and pieces of 4 different teams going back to Ferguson's time right through Moyes and LVG,many of which aren't up to scratch.

You'd think it would be that easy. And to be honest until he actually explains it himself, everyone is just left guessing.

He is a very secretive manager that you actually have very little understanding or insight into his vision, thoughts or ideas. Like I don't believe anyone has a clue what he came into United planning to do and I'm pretty sure no one has a clue what he attempting or trying. It obviously just isn't as simple as that. I couldn't fathom why I wasn't watching a 4-3-3 under Van Gaal, like all his best teams and why he persisted with a 4-2-3-1 or the 3-5-2 at the start. Then there was a little spell of 4-3-3, we played great, won some big games and I was like "FINALLY" then he just reverted.

We have played some 4-3-3 and had good performance, won convincingly or had comebacks, but then we revert. We are needing a goal yesterday and the first change is to revert to 4-2-3-1 and put Pogba back deep. I just don't get it sometimes.

Carrick next season might be interesting. I believe it will be the first time since Chelsea, where Mourinho will have made a change to his core coaching staff.

Maybe its getting a bit stale in that room of him and his cohorts and they need a fresh voice. None of them seem capable of coaching any sort of attacking movement or structure, maybe Carrick can. Thought it was interesting hearing Pogba talk about Carrick helping him, because it has been super rare seeing Pogba venture into the box, which I expect much more of him to do generally.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

yep, Pogba is devastating going forward but for much of the season he has been shoehorned into a position he is not comfortable with and now his confidence is shot.

Left back should be a priority signing this summer imo. need some proper width and a player who can overlap sanchez or martial and put in a first time cross

Think it's getting to that point alright in terms of looking to the summer and what we think.

Fellaini, Blind, Darmian and Shaw surely all gone.
Hopefully one of Smalling or Jones gone, my hope is Smalling.
Likely to lose one of Rashford or Martial, likely Martial.
And Pogba dynamic unknown, possible he could leave.
Mata and Herrera seemingly told they are surplus to requirements, with Herrera wanting to stay.

Five leaving at a minimum I'd say. Could be seven.

Need 1-2 midfielders, two fullbacks, a right sided specialist. Maybe he'd like another CB.

Busy summer ahead.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/MailSport/status/985865468408983552

"Manchester United send scouts to watch Lazio's £89million-rated midfielder Sergej Milinkovic-Savic."

jayo26

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MailSport/status/985865468408983552

"Manchester United send scouts to watch Lazio's £89million-rated midfielder Sergej Milinkovic-Savic."

This makes me happy

Lord TSC

jayo26 wrote: »

This makes me happy

The Fifa player in me got a little aroused :P

pjohnson

First question is are we going to indulge Pogba and going with midfield 3? If that is the case then Lingard is going to be a winger and means Martial could shag of without affecting our options. If we keep the much more effective two in midfield we would probably need another body if Martial goes as Lingard would continue in the #10 role.

Lingard has excelled at #10 but if we are scrapping that position for Pogba to get his 3 what becomes of Lingard?

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

You'd think it would be that easy. And to be honest until he actually explains it himself, everyone is just left guessing.

He is a very secretive manager that you actually have very little understanding or insight into his vision, thoughts or ideas. Like I don't believe anyone has a clue what he came into United planning to do and I'm pretty sure no one has a clue what he attempting or trying. It obviously just isn't as simple as that. I couldn't fathom why I wasn't watching a 4-3-3 under Van Gaal, like all his best teams and why he persisted with a 4-2-3-1 or the 3-5-2 at the start. Then there was a little spell of 4-3-3, we played great, won some big games and I was like "FINALLY" then he just reverted.

We have played some 4-3-3 and had good performance, won convincingly or had comebacks, but then we revert. We are needing a goal yesterday and the first change is to revert to 4-2-3-1 and put Pogba back deep. I just don't get it sometimes.

Carrick next season might be interesting. I believe it will be the first time since Chelsea, where Mourinho will have made a change to his core coaching staff.

Maybe its getting a bit stale in that room of him and his cohorts and they need a fresh voice. None of them seem capable of coaching any sort of attacking movement or structure, maybe Carrick can. Thought it was interesting hearing Pogba talk about Carrick helping him, because it has been super rare seeing Pogba venture into the box, which I expect much more of him to do generally.

carrick is already involved in the coaching and has been in the stands with mourinho as a coach already. thought it was interesting he said the other day that there were a few things he would change if he was the manager

paulbok

beno619 wrote: »

Wow. 40 odd pages since yesterday.

Could someone summarise the last 24 hours ?

Yesterday was pretty pathetic from all involved. Martial looked okay which was the only positive.

Liverpool Forum is closed, they are all in here since yesterday.

jayo26

Oh no they are putting up tables that exclude games they lost again.

That's a great level to be at unfairness.

Discodog

I read a lot of negative comments about Jose's presser. I think he's right especially about out lack of consistency & us trying to play complicated football instead of simple.

adox

pjohnson wrote: »

First question is are we going to indulge Pogba and going with midfield 3? If that is the case then Lingard is going to be a winger and means Martial could shag of without affecting our options. If we keep the much more effective two in midfield we would probably need another body if Martial goes as Lingard would continue in the #10 role.

Lingard has excelled at #10 but if we are scrapping that position for Pogba to get his 3 what becomes of Lingard?

I honestly think it’s the only way to play him if you are going to play him. Like he started the game yesterday. And was awful.

I know people think I’m on Pogbas back all the time but I find it astonishing that people absolve him of all personal responsibility and lay it all at the managers door.

He’s been a failure for me and if we could get the money back on him I think it would be wiser than continuing to try and build a team around him.

bangkok

adox wrote: »

I honestly think it’s the only way to play him if you are going to play him. Like he started the game yesterday. And was awful.

I know people think I’m on Pogbas back all the time but I find it astonishing that people absolve him of all personal responsibility and lay it all at the managers door.

He’s been a failure for me and if we could get the money back on him I think it would be wiser than continuing to try and build a team around him.

Pogba had the highest % of pass completion yesterday of any united player of over 90% which is actually excellent

adox

bangkok wrote: »

Pogba had the highest % of pass completion yesterday of any united player of over 90% which is actually excellent

Which means little to me to be honest. I’m judging him on watching him play, not on stats.

bangkok

adox wrote: »

Which means little to me to be honest. I’m judging him on watching him play, not on stats.

I actually thought he was doing ok and i think he was taken off as jose thought he would be sent off

Headshot

Gary Neville on MNF.

Hopefully they discuss utd

Mitch Connor

Discodog wrote: »

I read a lot of negative comments about Jose's presser. I think he's right especially about out lack of consistency & us trying to play complicated football instead of simple.

The amount of times we had the chance fir a shot on the edge of the box... But the player would one touch it off and move a little for the return to do the same....

Was SCREAMING at mata for it a number of times.

Entire side were overpaying it. That and an horrendous lack of positional rotation.

Mitch Connor

adox wrote: »

Which means little to me to be honest. I’m judging him on watching him play, not on stats.

I thought he was poor, but from a shape and balance perspective I thought taking him off was stupid. Mata, who was way worse should have come off and we could have kept some shape rather than 1 midfielder.

Liam O

Didn't think Pogba was bad but he was definitely liable to be sent off and was making some silly pulls and tackles.

adox

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I thought he was poor, but from a shape and balance perspective I thought taking him off was stupid. Mata, who was way worse should have come off and we could have kept some shape rather than 1 midfielder.

Yeah I agree. I’ve no idea what Herrera was taken off shortly followed by Pogba.

I thought Mata added nothing yesterday and called for him to be subbed at half time for one of Lingard Rashford or Martial.

I didn’t think the team was more attacking with more attacking players on the pitch. The shape and balance completely gone.

I thought Jose made a dogs dinner of the substitutes yesterday.

Mitch Connor

adox wrote: »

Yeah I agree. I’ve no idea what Herrera was taken off shortly followed by Pogba.

I thought Mata added nothing yesterday and called for him to be subbed at half time for one of Lingard Rashford or Martial.

I didn’t think the team was more attacking with more attacking players on the pitch. The shape and balance completely gone.

I thought Jose made a dogs dinner of the substitutes yesterday.

Yep.

Bring martial on and then remove the left back so there is no overlap to take a defender away from him.

What the fck is that??

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yep.

Bring martial on and then remove the left back so there is no overlap to take a defender away from him.

What the fck is that??

Yep that made no sense at all.

I actually thought martial did well so imagine if he had some support down the left as well

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

I actually thought he was doing ok and i think he was taken off as jose thought he would be sent off

And how did Pogba get that yellow again that meant he was on the brink?

Oh yes a blatant hand of god attempt and then he was having a laugh with Gibbs about after being cautioned.

AidoEirE

Would hate to see someone like Martial leave the club, has bags of talent and is only 22, thought of him leaving and turning into a monster for another club would be sh!te.
Just so happens we have another in Rashford who is top notch as well and still very young.

Would also hate to see that talent wasted and if he's not happy here then get a good price for him and flourish elsewhere, just not in the PL

Hard to remember last when we had that competition up front for a real spot in the team.

Sanchez then who after a pre season we'll see the proper sanchez of arsenal where he was tearing the league up.

Summer is going to be interesting, hopefully dead wood out and jose should have his stamp and it'll be his team than a squad full of 3 managers.

If i had to choose between Rashford and Martial then it would be Rashford everyday, local young lad and love his directness in play and attitude.

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

And how did Pogba get that yellow again that meant he was on the brink?

Oh yes a blatant hand of god attempt and then he was having a laugh with Gibbs about after being cautioned.

Not like he was the first player in history to do it nor will he be the last

https://youtu.be/3DsY61WPEzY

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

Not like he was the first player in history to do it nor will he be the last

https://youtu.be/3DsY61WPEzY

Totally comparable. 89 minutes 2 - 1 down and Scholes trying to earn a point.

Vs.

29 minutes in and 0 - 0.

Didn't see Scholesy laughing about it either tbh

PhlegmyMoses

pjohnson wrote: »

Totally comparable. 89 minutes 2 - 1 down and Scholes trying to earn a point.

Vs.

29 minutes in and 0 - 0.

Didn't see Scholesy laughing about it either tbh

Wasn't even a point. It was to draw level in the super cup.

jayo26

Ronaldo got sent off for deliberate handball (think it was a second yellow) for us too.