The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

kylith

sean635 wrote: »

I’m not.

I believe once the woman becomes pregnant, the life must be protected at all costs. Therefore a pregnancy should never be aborted. I believe a woman raped must give birth to her baby, but the rapist is responsible for her having to have a baby against her will. Not me

So you would force her to continue with the pregnancy and then deny that that is what you are doing? You would let women die, be crippled, or live and raise their children in poverty?

robarmstrong

sean635 wrote: »

I’m not.

I believe once the woman becomes pregnant, the life must be protected at all costs. Therefore a pregnancy should never be aborted. I believe a woman raped must give birth to her baby, but the rapist is responsible for her having to have a baby against her will. Not me

You are responsible for her having to have a baby conceived out of rape against her will by voting to save the 8th.

"I believe a woman raped must give birth to her baby"

That's probably one of the most horrible things I've ever heard someone say, you should genuinely be ashamed of yourself for even thinking such a thing.

Wow.

sean635

Flying Fox wrote: »

Nobody is killing a baby though. Why do you think they are?

There’s no such creature as a foetus. It is a human baby. The term foetus allows us to clarify what point of the pregnancy the baby is at. Foetus means post embryo stage and pre birth. Also foetus comes from Latin meaning “offspring”

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

So you wouldn't force her to carry the pregnancy... But you'd prohibit her from killing the baby.

So you'd force her to keep the pregnancy basically.

Thanks for that, only well and truly shot yourself in the foot there mate.

Also by voting to save the 8th you are effectively forcing her to keep that pregnancy.

Wanna try again?

Please read the poster's s last sentence.

And we see it from a different place; saving the human life of the baby has priority over the adults involved.

RobertKK

sean635 wrote: »

There’s no such creature as a foetus. It is a human baby. The term foetus allows us to clarify what point of the pregnancy the baby is at. Foetus means post embryo stage and pre birth. Also foetus comes from Latin meaning “offspring”

Yes like a toddler, infant, child, teenager, young adult, middle aged, OAP describe other stages of human life.

Outlaw Pete

DubInMeath wrote: »

Just a reminder that I'm still waiting on your clarification that women in western europe use medical reasons as a smoke screen for having abortions.

I have already explained the point, twice, you don't appear to be comprehending what it is being said to you. One last time:

For years prochoicers have dominated these debates with talk of pregnancies that are the result of rape, where there is ffa etc.... but they only account for a very small percentage of why women choose to have an abortion. Had all the talk about why it is we should legalize abortion in Ireland been directly proportionate with the genuine reasons why women choose to have an abortion, then only a small number of posts from prochoicers down the years on threads like these would have been about such issues. Prochoicers have in the main not really talked about the real reasons women choose abortions. Instead they would rather lie and say the 8th killed Savita, as they of course knew that emotionally manipulation of the public was more likely to lead to a referendum and they were right.

Martina1991

sean635 wrote: »

I’m not.
I believe once the woman becomes pregnant, the life must be protected at all costs. Therefore a pregnancy should never be aborted. I believe a woman raped must give birth to her baby, but the rapist is responsible for her having to have a baby against her will. Not me

Are you aware that thousands of Irish women have abortions every year.
Either abroad, buying pills online or self inflicted.

That's a fact.

The 8th amendment isn't "saving" those babies. The 8th amendment just moves Irish abortions somewhere else.

If an Irish woman decides to have an abortion, she will have one.

Neither you nor the 8th amendment is stopping that.

SusieBlue

Graces7 wrote: »

Please read the poster's s last sentence.

And we see it from a different place; saving the human life of the baby has priority over the adults involved.

And you can feel free to apply that principle for your own pregnancy and your own life.
Insisting your warped principle is applied to the whole of society is extremely selfish when you cannot and do not know the circumstances of every woman seeking an abortion.
You have no right to be her judge or jury.

sean635

sean635 wrote: »

I’m not.

I believe once the woman becomes pregnant, the life must be protected at all costs. Therefore a pregnancy should never be aborted. I believe a woman raped must give birth to her baby, but the rapist is responsible for her having to have a baby against her will. Not me

I never said that you were responsible I said the law is.

What about the life of the mother is that to be sacrificed for a fetux because the woman becomes suicidal from being forced to carry their rapists baby, or has a medical issue means carrying to term will cause her death?

sean635

sean635 wrote: »

There’s no such creature as a foetus. It is a human baby. The term foetus allows us to clarify what point of the pregnancy the baby is at. Foetus means post embryo stage and pre birth. Also foetus comes from Latin meaning “offspring”

It's not a baby though, it has potential to develop into a baby if the pregnancy continues. That is medical fact.

Martina1991

Graces7 wrote: »

And we see it from a different place; saving the human life of the baby has priority over the adults involved.

Why does one life trump another?

sean635

Martina1991 wrote: »

You think a rape victim should carry the pregnancy.
- A woman who would have to pay for maternity care and face the consequences of pregnancy like scarring, incontinence, hemorrhage, nerve damage, post natal depression to name a few.
- A woman who would have to face questions from family and friends asking when is she due, who is the father, what are you going to call it.
- The court proceedings for convicting her rapist (if she reports it).

Many pro-life people also sprout the idea of adoption, like its a simple solution to an unwanted problem.
- You think a woman should have to go through all of that only to hand the child over to the state.
-Less than 200 children were adopted in Ireland in 2016. There are countless children already in care and you want to add to it as a solution to unwanted pregnancies.

Your posts so far show zero compassion or understanding for any woman forced to carry a pregnancy against her will.

As inconvenient as everything you’ve listed above is for the woman, it all pales in comparison to what happens to the baby in the abortion. Before 8 weeks the woman will take mifepristone pills which will block nutrition reaching the baby causing it to die off in the womb. After 8 weeks the doctor will get down and pry the woman’s cervix open and with a suction unit more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, rip the baby from the womb, tearing it to pieces in the process.

With this in mind, I regard a woman’s right to her own convenience as 100% immaterial.

Graces7

Flying Fox wrote: »

If that's the case then why do most countries in the developed world allow abortion? The majority of people in those countries are pro-choice. Do you really think they're all evil monsters?

Why are so many ordinary decent people ok with abortion?

A very good question.

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

Please read the poster's s last sentence.

And we see it from a different place; saving the human life of the baby has priority over the adults involved.

So you believe a raped woman should be forced to give birth to a baby conceived out of that rape?

You've an awful habit of popping up with disgusting remarks with no foundation and disappearing without answering any questions/cherry-picking what you answer. I wonder how you haven't been banned yet.

Madscientist30

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Flying Fox wrote: »

If that's the case then why do most countries in the developed world allow abortion? The majority of people in those countries are pro-choice. Do you really think they're all evil monsters?

Why are so many ordinary decent people ok with abortion?

Ireland is unique in the sense of requiring a public vote to amend our constitution. Would certainly be interesting to see the results if every country with legalized abortion today was offered the chance to vote.

Politicians will follow the will of voters for the most part, thats what is happening here in Ireland right now. If the majority of the public was against abortion in abortion legal countries you can be sure it would be on the political agenda. Apart from the few states in the US I dont see much evidence of it elsewhere.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes like a toddler, infant, child, teenager, young adult, middle aged, OAP describe other stages of human life.

And no-one would say that a toddler is an adult. Similarly a foetus is not a baby.

Ken.

Mod-Cally Caleigh is banned as a rereg troll. While normally we would delete all their posts it would absolutely ruin the flow of this thread if I did this. Please don't reply to any more posts of theirs as you won't get a reply.

Thank you and sorry.

Martina1991

sean635 wrote: »

As inconvenient as everything you’ve listed above is for the woman, it all pales in comparison to what happens to the baby in the abortion. Before 8 weeks the woman will take mifepristone pills which will block nutrition reaching the baby causing it to die off in the womb. After 8 weeks the doctor will get down and pry the woman’s cervix open and with a suction unit more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, rip the baby from the womb, tearing it to pieces in the process.

With this in mind, I regard a woman’s right to her own convenience as 100% immaterial.

Inconvenient

Your words fill me with so much rage. You are unbelievably and completely ignorant.

You are focusing so hard on the uterus, you can't see the human being attached to it.

sean635

Flying Fox wrote: »

It's not a baby though, it has potential to develop into a baby if the pregnancy continues. That is medical fact.

Whether we defined it as a baby or not is a matter of semantics, although I firmly believe it is. What is incontrovertible is that it is a human life and should not have it’s human rights stripped away on account of it’s lack of sentience or number of cells or any other arbitrary requirement

Annasopra

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Why the large bold font?
Could you offer some explanation on why the 12 week is not a given if 8th is repealed and the circumstances where it could be entered into legislation?
I think I'm on the wrong website to be honest, I came here looking to be educated but just get shouted at, sarcastic comments, insults, etc.

The wording of the referendum will be nothing to do with 12 weeks. The public will be asked to repeal article 40.3.3 of the constitution and replace it with the following 13 word sentence: "provision may be made in law for regulation of termination of a pregnancy." Alongside the referendum the government will publish 21 proposed policy clauses on what legislation might look like.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/government-sets-out-21-clauses-to-regulate-abortion-1.3420425

The 12 week legislation is not a given to pass in the Oireachtas. FF/FG have free non whipped votes on it. SF at present dont support it. It is supported by Labour, PBP/Solidarity, Soc Dems, Greens, A lot of independents. It is not quite known how many FF/FG TDs could vote in favour or against but Sinn Fein could certainly be the key decision maker on it.

kylith

sean635 wrote: »

As inconvenient as everything you’ve listed above is for the woman, it all pales in comparison to what happens to the baby in the abortion. Before 8 weeks the woman will take mifepristone pills which will block nutrition reaching the baby causing it to die off in the womb. After 8 weeks the doctor will get down and pry the woman’s cervix open and with a suction unit more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, rip the baby from the womb, tearing it to pieces in the process.

With this in mind, I regard a woman’s right to her own convenience as 100% immaterial.

All of which the foetus is completely unaware of, because it is unaware of everything. It does not have the wiring to be aware or feel anything.

Zaph

sean635 wrote: »

I’m not.

I believe once the woman becomes pregnant, the life must be protected at all costs. Therefore a pregnancy should never be aborted. I believe a woman raped must give birth to her baby, but the rapist is responsible for her having to have a baby against her will. Not me

Read the post above out loud and listen to how ridiculous it sounds. A rapist is merely responsible for making a woman pregnant, and the law as it stands in this country is what would be responsible for her being forced to have the baby, a law that you want to uphold. So you can twist your logic into whatever semantics you choose to ease your guilt over the situation, but you, and those with similar views to you, would most definitely be responsible for a woman who was raped having a baby against her will.

sean635

sean635 wrote: »

As inconvenient as everything you’ve listed above is for the woman, it all pales in comparison to what happens to the baby in the abortion. Before 8 weeks the woman will take mifepristone pills which will block nutrition reaching the baby causing it to die off in the womb. After 8 weeks the doctor will get down and pry the woman’s cervix open and with a suction unit more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, rip the baby from the womb, tearing it to pieces in the process.

With this in mind, I regard a woman’s right to her own convenience as 100% immaterial.

If I posted what I had originally wrote as a response to your post I'd probably be banned for life. But all I have to say is that your attitude in the above post shows what little regard the prolife side actually has for human life.

RobertKK

Martina1991 wrote: »

Inconvenient

Your words fill me with so much rage. You are unbelievably and completely ignorant.

You are focusing so hard on the uterus, you can't see the human being attached to it.

But where is the humanity, where is the wish for bodily autonomy for both of the lives involved? The unborn life doesn't want to die, but it has his or her bodily autonomy decided for them as one chooses to view their life as a choice.

Annasopra

Zaph wrote: »

Read the post above out loud and listen to how ridiculous it sounds. A rapist is merely responsible for making a woman pregnant, and the law as it stands in this country is what would be responsible for her being forced to have the baby, a law that you want to uphold. So you can twist your logic into whatever semantics you choose to ease your guilt over the situation, but you, and those with similar views to you, would most definitely be responsible for a woman who was raped having a baby against her will.

And the woman being retraumatised through her whole pregancy and post birth.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Please read the poster's s last sentence.

And we see it from a different place; saving the human life of the baby has priority over the adults involved.

And can you read some of the questions directed specifically to you.?


And a new one - you now want to deny equal right to life to the mother? The 8th needs to be amended for you to get that right removed.

In your world the mother can die to ensure full term for a child that's destined to die at birth and what - you'll pray for her other children she leaves behind?

Annasopra

RobertKK wrote: »

But where is the humanity

Where is the humanity in forcing a person who is a rape or incest victim to give birth against their wishes?

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

A very good question.

It's because they don't view it as murder, because it isn't. The vast majority of people who research the topic with an open mind and consider the facts do end up being pro-choice. Even people who leaned pro-life have changed their views, Micheal Martin being a prime example.

SusieBlue

Graces7 wrote: »

A very good question.

Are you going to bother to reply to anyone who takes the time out of their day to reply to your posts, or are you going to continue your current behavior of ignoring them before popping up 5 minutes later with a another emotive blanket statement?

RobertKK

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

And the woman being retraumatised through her whole pregancy and post birth.

There is the other side too...

https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/ccase-mum-i-grieve-for-my-lost-baby-every-day-29241584.html

"My name – the C-case girl – is brought up on radio and TV all the time these days as if I'm an ad for abortion. The X-case girl never had an abortion in the end so we don't know how it would have affected her, but, for me, it has been harder to deal with than the rape.

"It only really hits you after you have children. You never forget your missing baby. It plays on your mind every day. Any woman who has an abortion and then goes on to become a mother will know all about it afterwards.
"I didn't want to become a mother at 13, but I realise now that baby didn't deserve to die. I would have loved to give her up for adoption to somebody who really wanted kids and couldn't have them. She'd be a teenager today and maybe we could be friends, even if she didn't call me mammy."