The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Billy86

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Are you serious? No idea.

The Same Sex Marriage referendum was only a 18 or 19 word change to the constitution and you saw all the nonsense and homophobic vitriol spouted by the anti side (where are they now to apologise?). The 8th is clearly not working. It has to go. The Oireachtas need to legislate for something this complex.

Here's the apology from those who were against SSM: "I fully supported SSM, but this abortion stuff... well that's different."

amdublin

seamus wrote: »

This is the problem with echo chambers.

The pro-life campaign is getting absolutely savaged from what I can see. Every "launch" is being marred by being full of provable misinformation from the start, forcing a swift backpedal and retreat. And their angry, shouty, religious rhetoric is really grating on people in general.

Time will tell of course. I too may be in an echo chamber.

I worry I too, surrounded by my pro repeal friends, am in an echo chamber.

But then you see the pro life launch with non medical drs saying awful things were "noble" and you think how in God's name can it not be repealed.

seamus

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Are you serious? No idea.

Of course he's serious.

Over 35 years we've had 2 successful pro-choice amendments and 2 failed pro-life ones, multiple high-profile deaths of women in preventable circumstances, a looooooonng-running public debate, several castigations from international political bodies and human rights NGOs, and finally a robust and comprehensive investigation and report from the Citizen's Assembly.

But pro-life people still want to "see it discussed". Because that kind of disingenuous pretence that we're "rushing into things", is just one of the tricks in the pro-life bag of dirty tactics.

dudara

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

I think the Repeal campaign has been slow to mobilise in terms of canvassing, posters etc. Having that said that, Repeal has been up and running for a long time and have already achieved the remarkable result of getting us to a referendum. So I would not underestimate Repeal at all.

Both campaigns will target the undecideds. I think anyone with a firm opinion has their mind made up, and will be hard to shift.

Sofiztikated

seamus wrote: »

Of course he's serious.

Over 35 years we've had 2 successful pro-choice amendments and 2 failed pro-life ones, multiple high-profile deaths of women in preventable circumstances, a looooooonng-running public debate, several castigations from international political bodies and human rights NGOs, and finally a robust and comprehensive investigation and report from the Citizen's Assembly.

But pro-life people still want to "see it discussed". Because that kind of disingenuous pretence that we're "rushing into things", is just one of the tricks in the pro-life bag of dirty tactics.

See it discussed = I want people to say the same things as me.

amdublin

seamus wrote: »

Of course he's serious.

Over 35 years we've had 2 successful pro-choice amendments and 2 failed pro-life ones, multiple high-profile deaths of women in preventable circumstances, a looooooonng-running public debate, several castigations from international political bodies and human rights NGOs, and finally a robust and comprehensive investigation and report from the Citizen's Assembly.

But pro-life people still want to "see it discussed". Because that kind of disingenuous pretence that we're "rushing into things", is just one of the tricks in the pro-life bag of dirty tactics.

Seamus you are clearly assaulting and pouncing on the pro life side with this post

.......

This post has been deleted.

RobertKK

Lets just keep saying trust...and abortion up to birth, a together for yes campaigner in the audio link.

https://twitter.com/mejtom/status/980837272068284416?s=21

.......

This post has been deleted.

bertieinexile

In england 97% of abortions are carried out on the grounds of a threat to mental health of the mother.
Most people would describe what they have in england as abortion on demand/request.
In england abortion on these grounds is available up to 24 weeks.

Under Simon Harris's proposed legislation abortion would be available in Ireland under almost identical mental health grounds
Just like in england this would be available up to 24 weeks.

To repeat, 97% of abortions in england are allowed on these grounds.
No one makes any effort to police them. Its abortion on demand/request up to 24 weeks.
Abortions signed off after just a phonecall: How Marie Stopes doctors approve abortions for women they've never met

24 is just a number.
Here's what a 24 week old child in the womb actually looks like.
https://youtu.be/3ekjvgE5mo4?t=31s

Here's a child delivered at 23 weeks who's now a happy and healthy 3 year old.
https://youtu.be/2RQ8ks-UH0E?t=22s

nozzferrahhtoo is an articulate, considerate, pro choice poster on this site with a large following. Here's nozzferrahhtoo accepting the taking of a life like these.

I certainly would not lose sleep over hearing an abortion at 24 weeks occurred, though I wish they wouldnt ever happen. But I see no reason to campaign for allowing it specifically. over 98% of abortions seem to happen by 16 weeks. So 16 weeks is around what I would campaign for. If they implemented 12 or 20 however, I would be more than content and happy with either.

I'm not trying to make nozzferrahhtoo look bad. My point is that that's hardly a ringing endorsement of ending lives like those in the videos. Even nozzferrahhtoo sounds reluctant. You'd have to. You'd need to be psychotic to be fully on board for that.

And nozzferrahhtoo certainly isn't that. I'm sure even nozzferrahhtoo doesn't contemplate taking those lives when he says

Because what abortion actually is, is the termination of a fetus a significant period of time before it attains any of the attributes that meaningfully and justifiably anchor our moral and ethical concern, and concept of "rights".

Even those who have been pushing for this referendum for years are going to have to hold their noses, close their eyes, shut down their doubts, in order to vote for this mess of a proposal.



So where does that leave the rest of us?

How the hell did they think people were going to vote for this? No country in the world where people were given a choice has ever gone for abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. Does that even need to be said?

The way to have done this was change the 8th to allow an unpolicable wedge case like rape that would have opened the floodgates. Instead they worked themselves up in to a frenzy in the bubble of the citizens assembly and oireachtas committee and then put a political boy wonder in charge instead of an old political hand.

It's weird that they expect us to vote Yes to this thing. It's not the way people think. It's not how people are.

It wasnt me123

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal campaign is going badly from what I see, and polls will reflect this in the coming weeks.

What a load of nonsense.

The repeal will go through because its inhumane to make pregnant women go to a foreign country to terminate their pregnancy, regardless of why they are terminating the pregnancy.

Also, the repeal only have to say "Savita" and everyone with any compassion or kindness will be voting repeal.

Most people I know under 60 are sick to death of celibate old men telling them what to do in their bedrooms - while in some cases, doing exactly the same thing. The hypocrocy is sickening.

Repeal all the way and all the posters, debates and bible bashers won't ever make me change my mind.

.......

This post has been deleted.

PhoenixParker

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Further, if anyone has the typical knee jerk reaction to these proposals I.e. that they're disgusting and horrific etc. (I did myself)
I suggest doing a little reading, particularly about abortion in Canada.

Canada has no limits, they "trust women" and late term abortion is rare and only done for medical reasons.

It wasnt me123

bertieinexile wrote: »

In england 97% ......

We live in Ireland - different country - we don't care what they do in England - we are discussing our Constitution - England don't have a constituition and again, we don't care what they do.

So where does that leave the rest of us?

In case I wasn't clear enough in previous posts, I don't care about how you vote or pontificate or debate or lie or quote endless pro lifers saying blah blah blah

Your opinion is clearly never going to change and guess what, nor is mine. we are poles apart. I don't care if you don't think the same way as me, thats democracy. Luckily, enough people do think like me and the 8th will be repealed.

If you are a Bertie, this repeal will never physically affect you. If you are a "beatrice" then you are lucky that you will have a choice when the 8th is repealed and you can make up your mind to do what you like with your body.

Repeal all the way - get the bible bashers away from my eggs!

ohnonotgmail

bertieinexile wrote: »

In england 97% of abortions are carried out on the grounds of a threat to mental health of the mother.
Most people would describe what they have in england as abortion on demand/request.
In england abortion on these grounds is available up to 24 weeks.

Under Simon Harris's proposed legislation abortion would be available in Ireland under almost identical mental health grounds
Just like in england this would be available up to 24 weeks.
.

You asked this before and i responded to it. perhaps you just missed the response so i will repeat it

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I wouldn't. The UK legislation talks of "Risk of injury". this is very different to

there is a threat to the life or threat “of serious harm” to the health of the mother, and in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities.

RobertKK

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes she has as she said she said no rights right up until birth, and the pause before trust women was funny, it was like she had to look at her notes for the words she had to say and trust women was the words she was looking for.

Zubeneschamali

bertieinexile wrote: »

It's weird that they expect us to vote Yes to this thing. It's not the way people think. It's not how people are.

It's weird that you think it's weird when 56% of people surveyed say they plan to vote for it.

.......

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes she has as she said she said no rights right up until birth, and the pause before trust women was funny, it was like she had to look at her notes for the words she had to say and trust women was the words she was looking for.

she was stuttering all the way through so you reading far more into the pause than is there. She made an excellent point. Just not in an excellent way.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Lets just keep saying trust...and abortion up to birth, a together for yes campaigner in the audio link.

https://twitter.com/mejtom/status/980837272068284416?s=21

can you give me the timestamp where she says that there should be abortion up to birth? I've listened to the clip and cant find that bit.

January

She doesn't say it. So there's no point in asking him. His misinterpretation of what Sinéad has said is not surprising given his views of miss C and miss p.

Yeah_Right

applehunter wrote: »

This is the impression I get like when I come on this thread.

There are 10-12 posters who have taken up camp ready to pounce on anyone that is not in favour of repeal or undecided.

There have been a few casualties on the mountain. Very capable climbers as well.

Hold on. Didn't you call me a murderer earlier in this thread?

Billy86

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Hold on. Didn't you call me a murderer earlier in this thread?

For the love of god, can you please just wrap your head around the simple truth you keep overlooking... pro lifers are always the victims at all time and nothing is ever their fault (like say, unwanted and abandoned children in state care leading to huge societal issues and financial strains).

Once you get that truth of life in to you, you'll be grand.

posturingpat

Pro lifers are never in the wrong and Pro choicers are also never in the wrong, just depends what "side" people are on it seems.
I've said it a thousand times at this stage, get this over and done with,nobody's changing their mind at this stage either way.

January

posturingpat wrote: »

Pro lifers are never in the wrong and Pro choicers are also never in the wrong, just depends what "side" people are on it seems.
I've said it a thousand times at this stage, get this over and done with,nobody's changing their mind at this stage either way.

People who have decided won't change their mind but there are genuine people out there who are undecided on it and it's important to counteract the lies being propagated by the 'pro-life' side so people can see the truth of what this referendum is about.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

January wrote: »

The 'In Her Shoes' FB page has been targetted by 'pro-life' people, giving 1-star copy and paste reviews of the page. Imagine targetting women who are telling their stories from their point of view of their experience with the 8th amendment.

I'm not surprised with their tactics at all. It's shameful.

Well that backfired pretty spectacularly. Messages screenshotted of people talking about how many one star reviews would be needed to make an impact, the obvious panic at how popular the page is etc. And they've made it far more visible than it was when they set out.

It's annoying, for any reasonable person paying attention to the campaigns it's blatantly obvious that one side is behaving consistently far worse than the other. Lies, aggression, sneaky shít like this, targetting venues and businesses to intimidate them out of supporting the opposing side, and all the while playing the "we're being victimised and bullied and censored" card. I worry though that for people who aren't fully paying attention, all that stuff goes under the radar. I was up in Dublin there and it is covered in posters, the budget they have is insane.

It's going to be so, so close.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm tired too, but here goes... No, I'm not saying that they dont care about them.

That's interesting seeing as you recently told me to drop the charade of caring specifically about them.

Water John

To me, the style and focus of the No campaign, has a very American flavour, to it. This isn't hotch potch. This is a targetted methodology, based on their research and application mindset.Who are the hands on the tiller?

Misael Echoing Horse

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

Well that backfired pretty spectacularly. Messages screenshotted of people talking about how many one star reviews would be needed to make an impact, the obvious panic at how popular the page is etc. And they've made it far more visible than it was when they set out.

It's annoying, for any reasonable person paying attention to the campaigns it's blatantly obvious that one side is behaving consistently far worse than the other. Lies, aggression, sneaky shít like this, targetting venues and businesses to intimidate them out of supporting the opposing side, and all the while playing the "we're being victimised and bullied and censored" card. I worry though that for people who aren't fully paying attention, all that stuff goes under the radar. I was up in Dublin there and it is covered in posters, the budget they have is insane.

It's going to be so, so close.

With money coming in from the US and I'd imagine from the church they have deep pockets alright.

In my local town during the marriage equality refurendum I thought it fuuny to be seeing only one poster calling for a yes vote, while the rest of the town was plastered with vote no posters.
I was thinking that perhaps the yes camp had a feeling that it would pass and didn't bother putting them up in a smallish town in Meath, but it turns out that any posters supporting the referendum had been removed and replaced with vote no posters. I'm expecting more of the same this time around.

posturingpat

I'm based in a small town in Wexford and have seen at least twice as many pro choice posters? Is there a big push in this area for any particular reason?