The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

Something people seem to forget.

We are not Britain.

We are a sovereign nation with our own constitution and we should not change that constitution lightly.

Then in that case pro choice posters on here should stop falsely referring to how abortion is handled in the UK as an example of how it will be here if the 8th is repealed.

applehunter

DubInMeath wrote: »

Then in that case pro choice posters on here should stop falsely referring to how abortion is handled in the UK as an example of how it will be here if the 8th is repealed.

Pro choice posters like myself can point out how abortion laws have hugely increased abortion rates in the UK while also acknowledging that Ireland is a sovereign nation where the unborn child is given constitutional protection and abortion rates remain low.

pleas advice

applehunter wrote: »

Pro choice posters like myself can point out how abortion laws have hugely increased abortion rates in the UK

where the vast majority occur before 12 weeks?

while also acknowledging that Ireland is a sovereign nation where the unborn child is given constitutional protection and abortion rates remain low.

under the proposed legislation (and this is what we will be voting to bring in if we vote repeal) there will be no constitutional protection under 12 weeks

Zubeneschamali

applehunter wrote: »

We are a sovereign nation with our own constitution and we should not change that constitution lightly.

And when we do change it, and make an utter balls of the change, we should not be afraid to change it back.

Even 35 years later.

Zubeneschamali

bubblypop wrote: »

bertie, how about instead of asking questions that don't apply here, you answer some questions that have been put to you?

If you get banned from politics dot ie, does anyone know if they delete all your posts too, or would you be able to delete them all after being banned?

Madscientist30

bertieinexile wrote: »

Misael Echoing Horse wrote:

This is the honesty I was referring to and which you cropped from your original post.

I'll be honest too, when I was younger I was appalled at the idea of abortion.

And then, like PP, I did some reading. And I lived in the real world. And, in all honesty, the more I knew about the issue, the more pro-choice I became.

I encourage anyone who cares about this issue to READ. Read the Oireachtas and Citizens' Assembly Reports and the reasoning behind the proposed legislation, read about what happens in countries with very restrictive abortion laws, read about the history of the pro-life and pro-choice campaigns (I mean mainstream stuff) and see where your conscience brings you when you are fully informed.

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

Up to the point where their conscience and their medical training dictates it should be based on the individual case, bearing in mind the fact that apparently needs a lot of repeating: a late termination of pregnancy doesn't necessarily mean ending the life of the unborn.

I'll repeat my question to you, do you admire the honesty in PP's post, that education on a matter to which they reflexively reacted negatively changed that reaction?

I'm trying to understand, Misael Echoing Horse. (And there's a sentence I thought I would never write.)

You talk about your own gut reaction

I'll be honest too, when I was younger I was appalled at the idea of abortion.

And then you talk about reading and educating yourself which obviously gave you a different attitude.
Initially I was perplexed by why you were applying the word honesty to what sounded like a process of rationalisation.
It seemed an odd choice.
After thinking about it my guess though is that you mean the journey hasn't just been rational. The honesty refers to the fact that you are now emotionally invested in your new(er) view of this question. No doubt a deep and difficult journey

And yet. (And I might already be miles off course here)
When I asked for a cutoff point for the Canadian woman, unlike PhoenixParker, you didn't give a date or a developmental stage or a principle related to the woman's rights.
Your answer was that you would leave it in the hands of the doctors. And if some wanted to perform an abortion and if some decided her pregnancy was too advanced and wanted to send her to the states instead and if some just refused, then you say (presumably) that's up to them.

Forgive me if I'm way off the mark now, but it seems that there is something of a distancing yourself from the question.
That, to bring it back to your emotional involvement, there is still something troubling at stake here for you at least when we get up to 20 weeks and after.

I don't expect you for a minute to answer something so personal on a forum like this. I'm just giving you my impression. And I'm more than likely miles off.


PS Just saw your last post there. Hope I'm not guilty of whatever that is.

What you call "distancing yourself" is actually putting trust in the woman and her medical team to decide for themselves. Why do you feel the need to "not distance yourself" from these private decisions Bertie? Do you ever wonder what it is about yourself and your own past that gives you such a deep interest in the private reproductive decisions of individuals you dont know, and why you have such a deep concern for their unborn? Forgive me if I am way off the mark, but perhaps you have had some experiences with women personally yourself that have led you to believe that women as a group want to hurt people, or cant be trusted to make "good" decisions? Or perhaps in your formative years that was a message you received from your upbringing or the Church, and you have never critically questioned it? I dont for a minute expect you to answer something so personal on a forum like this, I'm just giving you my impression of you.

Annasopra

applehunter wrote: »

Something people seem to forget.

We are not Britain.

We are a sovereign nation with our own constitution and we should not change that constitution lightly.

We might as well be Britain because we send so many of our abortions there.

And we passed the 13th amendment to say that is perfectly fine.

pitifulgod

applehunter wrote: »

Something people seem to forget.

We are not Britain.

We are a sovereign nation with our own constitution and we should not change that constitution lightly.

That's a pretty good argument against having things such as the 8th in the constitution. It's overly complex with drastic consequences and has no place in it.

amdublin

Thought provoking (pro-choice) article in the times today

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/long-experience-informs-shifting-views-in-abortion-debate-1.3449443?mode=amp

It's about older people who will be voting yes for repeal. A good article I thought.



A question. Tomorrow do the Irish Times need to publish a pro life article from Breda or something? Does there have to be the balance that RTE adhere to?

Annasopra

applehunter wrote: »

Pro choice posters like myself can point out how abortion laws have hugely increased abortion rates in the UK while also acknowledging that Ireland is a sovereign nation where the unborn child is given constitutional protection and abortion rates remain low.

Yes you can point this out.
However the reality is that banning abortion does not lower the rates. Numerous studies have proved this.
Regarding Irelands rate we dont know what they are really. We know some UK figures. We dont know how many women purchase abortion pills online. We dont know how msny women goto other countries. We dont know how many women give false addresses to UK clinics.

Annasopra

amdublin wrote: »

Thought provoking (pro-choice) article in the times today

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/long-experience-informs-shifting-views-in-abortion-debate-1.3449443?mode=amp

It's about older people who will be voting yes for repeal. A good article I thought.



A question. Tomorrow do the Irish Times need to publish a pro life article from Breda or something? Does there have to be the balance that RTE adhere to?

No

That law is only for broadcast media

Kurtosis

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No

That law is only for broadcast media

And even at that, the Broadcasting Authority if Ireland have said that for referendums, a 50:50 isn't necessarily required: [url] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/abortion-broadcasters-have-no-obligation-to-give-equal-air-time-1.3425366?mode=amp[/url]

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This post has been deleted.

seamus

posturingpat wrote: »

I'm based in a small town in Wexford and have seen at least twice as many pro choice posters? Is there a big push in this area for any particular reason?

The pro-choice campaign is being focussed where it's most needed.

Much of Dublin rejected the 8th amendment the first time around, and the Dublin constituencies which didn't, had some of the lowest "Yes" margins.

Polling suggests that the repeal is an absolute winner in Dublin, probably exceeding 80% in some areas, and there's very little chance that anything is going to swing it back.

So both the pro-choice and pro-life campaigns are focussing in the areas which will have more undecideds and voters who are more malleable (i.e. people who may have had less exposure to, or less debate about, abortion).

Zubeneschamali

Here is the map from 1983:

seamus

Yeah, my bad, I misread some data. It was five Dublin constituencies which rejected it, six passed.

In any case, it still illustrates why campaigning is so heavily focussed outside of the Dublin region. The rest of Leinster being surprisingly conservative in comparison to other more traditionally conservative strongholds.

fizzypish

Is there a source of relatively unbiased information I can access. I imagine the posters of this thread have come across good stuff. Good podcast ideally? Pro lifers came to the door yesterday and I have finally started thinking on the upcoming vote. I'm pretty much in the pro choice camp but would like to be more educated. I'm uninterested in anecdotal evidence/stories as both sides have awful tales to tell and this doesn't aid my decision. I'm interested in the facts, hows England fairing after having abortion legal for donkeys years, where does the law say its ok to abort up to (5,6,7 months?) etc.....
Cheers,
Fizzy.

citygal93

re: the "Love Both" posters which have been put up around Dublin now - they make a claim "1 in 5 babies in England are aborted". Apart from the fact that you can't compare babies being born with abortions carried out, I can't find any "1 in 5" or 25% figure in the publication which Love Both cited (British Dept of Health figures 2015). I've emailed Love Both but am yet to get a reply. Anyone any ideas on where they've got these figures or how they can get away with publishing this totally incorrect figure?

Zubeneschamali

fizzypish wrote: »

Is there a source of relatively unbiased information I can access.

This Citizen's Assembly page has links to their final report and to the cross-party Oireachteas Committee material.

captbarnacles

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you get banned from politics dot ie, does anyone know if they delete all your posts too, or would you be able to delete them all after being banned?

Some still there, quite the posting history. Colour me shocked.

Zubeneschamali

citygal93 wrote: »

re: the "Love Both" posters which have been put up around Dublin now - they make a claim "1 in 5 babies in England are aborted".

It's based on #abortions vs. #live births.

~180K abortions, ~700K live births.

Zubeneschamali

captbarnacles wrote: »

Some still there, quite the posting history. Colour me shocked.

I only see bits quoted in posts by other people, not the originals. Someone did a purge at some stage, perhaps to hide the defence of boom-time FF, or paedophile priests, or offences against politics dot ie's "gay Sharia" (???).

Water John

Location or Constituency doesn't matter in a Ref, it's the total votes on each side.
Campaigns certainly would focus on where the most undecideds are. More bang for their buck, so to speak.

January

Hope thís posts. Some of the things being delivered with toy catalogues. Actually stuffed in the pages so as not to be immediately obvious.

FutureGuy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's based on #abortions vs. #live births.

~180K abortions, ~700K live births.

Yep, more absolute sh!te and unfortunately we live in a time when most voters will not question these facts.

amdublin

January wrote: »

Hope thís posts. Some of the things being delivered with toy catalogues. Actually stuffed in the pages so as not to be immediately obvious.

That is the weirdest thing I've seen yet.

Very very odd.

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This post has been deleted.

citygal93

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's based on #abortions vs. #live births.

~180K abortions, ~700K live births.

and do you know what these "180k abortions" are? Like, are they including taking the morning after pill (as i've seen in some places - wtf)

January

....... wrote: »

Who delivered that?

A distribution company. Banba toymaster haven't said who they are.

Bannasidhe

January wrote: »

Hope thís posts. Some of the things being delivered with toy catalogues. Actually stuffed in the pages so as not to be immediately obvious.

My cousin's 12 year old daughter has been having nightmares since seeing some of the "pro-life" posters up in rural Cork. :mad:
Just demonstrates their complete lack of regard for the welfare of children that they would deliberately place distressing images near schools.
Mind you, in this instance it turned a woman and her husband who were content to simply vote for Repeal into active canvassers and p*ssed off most of the parents whose children have to walk this gauntlet of horror.