The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

captbarnacles

Save the 8th because Cristiano Ronaldo. Hot on the heels of save the 8th because nobody understands what they are voting for. Arguments getting steadily more moronic.

Looking forward to the giant billboard with a still of Ronaldos bicycle kick besides '#savethe8th'.

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

Your point is that women should be forced to go through with pregnancies because there's an infinitesimal chance that the child will grow up to become a multi-millionaire celebrity.

Imagine saying that everyone should be forced to buy lotto tickets whether they can afford to or not?

That's your argument.

So you are comparing a unique life with a lottery ticket...

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

So you are comparing a unique life with a lottery ticket...

Oh for goodness sake, would you stop with the melodramatics. Ridiculous.

ohnonotgmail

captbarnacles wrote: »

Save the 8th because Cristiano Ronaldo. Hot on the heels of save the 8th because nobody understands what they are voting for. Arguments getting steadily more moronic.

Looking forward to the giant billboard with a still of Ronaldos bicycle kick besides '#savethe8th'.

In fairness it was a fantastic goal.

It wasnt me123

RobertKK wrote: »

.
We could all be living in a totally different reality but we will never know due to abortion taking millions of lives.

We could all be living in a different world, Adolf Hitler and Attila the Hun could have been a twin!!!!

Peter Sutcliffe may have been aborted and 13 women would have still been alive.

Your arguments are nonsensical.

Repeal all the way - peado priests will not dictate to me about my eggs!

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

How many people who would have enriched the world for millions of other people were never let enter the world alive to do so? Their lives instead were viewed as being a problem that needed to be sorted via an abortion.
We could all be living in a totally different reality but we will never know due to abortion taking millions of lives.

How many people are currently living in pain and hunger and torment because their mothers couldn't access abortion services?

January

RobertKK wrote: »

If people respected all life maybe people wouldn't see other lives being expendable.

That's true, but where's your respect for life? You think forcing women to remain pregnant against their will is fine. Where's your respect for mine and my children's lives? We'd have been a lot worse off if I had went through with my pregnancy and thinking that maybe 20/30 years down the line I could be a millionaire because my kid could have been the next Ronaldo is idiotic because I'd still need to raise that kid in poverty and the money would be no good to me when they're all raised.

captbarnacles

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

In fairness it was a fantastic goal.

I agree. That's why I've chosen it for their billboard. It was a tough decision because he has lots to choose from.

JDD

Sure everyone has an emotive story to produce. The thing is, there are millions upon millions of children that could be born each year, but are not because of contraception or abstinence. I'm sure a percentage of them would be great footballers, or scientists, or astronauts. The same percentage of the population who are already those types of people. And the same proportion of those potential lives would be Hitlers and paedophiles and murders as we have in the normal general population. But we've got what we've got.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

How many people who would have made the world considerably worse for millions of other people were never let enter the world alive to do so?

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

Zubeneschamali

RobertKK wrote: »

We could all be living in a totally different reality

I think we are already living in different realities, Robert.

captbarnacles

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

Yawn. Your ilk spouted all this nonsense against contraception as well.

It wasnt me123

kylith wrote: »

How many people are currently living in pain and hunger and torment because their mothers couldn't access abortion services?

Exactly.

Look at all those poor street children in the Third World (India, parts of South America) because they were born into families that didn't want them and couldn't afford them. You don't think they wish their families had had better family planning instead of discarding them at birth.

Repeal all the way - everybody living in Ireland is entitled to obtain all medical services that they want in their own Country.

RobertKK

JDD wrote: »

Sure everyone has an emotive story to produce. The thing is, there are millions upon millions of children that could be born each year, but are not because of contraception or abstinence. I'm sure a percentage of them would be great footballers, or scientists, or astronauts. The same percentage of the population who are already those types of people. And the same proportion of those potential lives would be Hitlers and paedophiles and murders as we have in the normal general population. But we've got what we've got.

But we are talking about lives that did exist and which had or in the case of others did not have their lives turned off.

bertieinexile

captbarnacles wrote: »

Looking forward to the giant billboard with a still of Ronaldos bicycle kick besides '#savethe8th'.

That is brilliant! Please, please, someone make this happen!

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

So you are comparing a unique life with a lottery ticket...

It's actually very apt. Everyone looks at the winning lotto numbers and assigns a special value to them; as if this grouping of numbers is more important than any other. When it's actually just a random selection of numbers, no more special or valuable than any other.

Likewise a unique person is just a random rearrangement of genes, no more special than any other.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

yes, quite easily. If you want a counter-example imagine hitler was aborted, or stalin, or Mao? Millions of people would not have suffered and died.

volchitsa

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

So in a world of, what is it, 9 billion people now?, and stretched to the limit of earth's resources, we need millions, possibly billions more people, because one of those as yet unborn people might make a discovery that would save the planet?

Is that really your argument?

RobertKK

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think we are already living in different realities, Robert.

Yes some believe that innocent life is a choice and others don't think innocent life is something one can choose to discriminate against.

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

Cristiano Ronaldo's mother wanted to abort him as they were poor, but her doctor didn't support the decision. She said Cristiano knows and from her biography she said "He told me he found out, 'look mum, you wanted to abort and now I'm the one who's pulling the purse string in the house'"
She had a good doctor and it ended up transforming her life and that of her family.

At the time of that pregnancy, Portugal had repealed their absolute ban on abortion, and replaced it with laws that allowed abortion on grounds of risk to a woman's health or life, or in cases of FFA.

So without realising it, you've actually made the argument for repeal. Because this example shows we don't need blunt instruments like the 8th, we just need to trust women and their doctors, and make sure the law supports their decisions, whatever those decisions may be.

bertieinexile

RobertKK wrote: »

If people respected all life maybe people wouldn't see other lives being expendable.

Beautifully put RobertKK.

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This post has been deleted.

OldNotWIse

Hundreds of pages of people insulting each other and engaging in Olympian mental gymnastics. What a waste of time and energy in a context where each of you will only have one vote anyway :pac:

Zubeneschamali

bertieinexile wrote: »

That is brilliant! Please, please, someone make this happen!

I was staring at this one for about 10 seconds trying to figure out how it was a savethe8th message:

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

What if the kid to make that discovery was already born, but she was raped when she was 16 and had to drop out of school to have the baby so she never went to college? What if because she dropped out of school she had to take a minimum wage job and her amazing mind was totally wasted because instead of being able to take 2 tablets 4 weeks into a pregnancy she had to have a child she wasn't able to properly care for and now instead of making an amazing scientific breakthrough she lives in a council flat and has a drinking problem because of her feeling of wasted potential and lost dreams coupled with PND and trauma from having to have her rapists baby, and the kid she was forced to have sets fire to stuff for fun and commits petty theft in the local Spar?

Timberrrrrrrr

RobertKK wrote: »

But we are talking about lives that did exist and which had or in the case of others did not have their lives turned off.

For every Ronaldo story there are a million Lynn Beisner stories

Here's a woman who wishes she had have been aborted.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/i-wish-my-mother-aborted-me

In the last couple of months, I have read two of these abortion deliverance stories that have been particularly offensive. The first story is one propagated by Rebecca Kiessling, the poster child for the no exceptions in cases of rape or incest.

What makes these stories so infuriating to me is that they are emotional blackmail. As readers or listeners, we are almost forced by these anti-choice versions of A Wonderful Life to say, "Oh, I am so glad you were born." And then by extension, we are soon forced into saying, "Yes, of course, every blastula of cells should be allowed to develop into a human being."

An abortion would have absolutely been better for my mother. If nothing else, getting an abortion would have saved her from plunging into poverty. She likely would have stayed in the same socioeconomic strata as her parents and grandparents who were professors. I wish she had aborted me because I love her and want what is best for her.

With that constellation of factors, there was a very high statistical probability that my mother would be an abusive parent, that we would spend the rest of our lives in crushing poverty, and that we would both be highly vulnerable to predatory organisations and men. And that is exactly what happened. She abused me, beating me viciously and often. We lived in bone-crushing poverty, and our little family became a magnet for predatory men and organisations. 

If this were an anti-choice story, this is the part where I would tell you how I overcame great odds and my life now has special meaning. I would ask you to affirm that, of course, you are happy I was born, and that the world would be a darker, poorer place without me.

It is not easy to say, "I wish my mother had aborted me." The right would have us see abortion as women acting out of cowardice, selfishness, or convenience. But for many women, like my mother, abortion would be an inconvenient act of courage and selflessness. I am sad for both of us that she could not find the courage and selflessness

RobertKK

volchitsa wrote: »

So in a world of, what is it, 9 billion people now?, and stretched to the limit of earth's resources, we need millions, possibly billions more people, because one of those as yet unborn people might make a discovery that would save the planet?

Is that really your argument?

We will be living on other planets and moons, people need to expand their minds to where human civilisation is headed.
An asteroid could easily wipe out most of the planet, maybe a supervolcano causing a volcanic winter like when Mount Toba erupted roughly 75,000 years ago.
Today's population could easily be mostly wiped out by natural causes, because the Earth has a history for wiping out at a lot of life in big events, In time the world's population will be far lower and there is nothing that can stop some natural events.
Humans have all their eggs in one basket on this planet, likewise some other human lives had their eggs in a woman who is for or against an abortion as a choice and it decided their outcome.

It wasnt me123

Kylith, I'd read that book! It has everything, romance, disappointment, drug addiction - I can see a mini series forming

JDD

But we are talking about lives that did exist and which had or in the case of others did not have their lives turned off.

But that's nothing to do with your argument. You're saying that we shouldn't allow abortion as there is the possibility that one of those aborted fetuses may become a net contributor to society and not a net taker. I have said that the logical take on that is that there will be the exact same proportion of net contributors in that group of aborted fetuses as there are in the general born population. And as an extension of that, there would be the exact same proportion of net contributors in the population of fetuses that may have been conceived if it wasn't for contraception. It's not an argument for outlawing contraception, so why would it be an argument for banning abortion.

You say that there is a difference because the fetuses already exist. I don't think that makes a difference at all. You're trying to connect the "but there could be a genius" argument to the "but it has a right to life from conception" argument, when I don't see the connection between these two arguments at all.

January

RobertKK wrote: »

We will be living on other planets and moons, people need to expand their minds to where human civilisation is headed.
An asteroid could easily wipe out most of the planet, maybe a supervolcano causing a volcanic winter like when Mount Toba erupted roughly 75,000 years ago.
Today's population could easily be mostly wiped out by natural causes, because the Earth has a history for wiping out at a lot of life in big events, In time the world's population will be far lower and there is nothing that can stop some natural events.
Humans have all their eggs in one basket on this planet, likewise some other human lives had their eggs in a woman who is for or against an abortion as a choice and it decided their outcome.

Ah now. Ah now lads. Someone print this and frame it. Quick.