The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

ProfessorPlum

I have no idea if Marie Stopes or any other Private provider would want to come here. But there’s one very important point that you’re missing:

Irish Law is not U.K. Law.

That is all.

amdublin

I keep on seeing things on facebook and here on boards about Canada and implying that Canadian healthcare providers are mad for abortions at 9 months etc.


I am watching a tv program which I had recorded. It was first shown on 25th of March on 3e. Actually maybe it was shown on regular tv3 before that at some point.


It's called Keeping Canada Alive and is following some doctors and some of their patients all over Canada. Their compassion and empathy is coming across so strong in everything they do.


One thing that strikes me is Choice and how important it is. The last 5 minutes I have watched has been a home visit conversation between an older hippyish kind of guy doctor and his younger 40sish patient who has been battling breast cancer which has spread to her nodes and bones.


He is exploring with her "I want to ask you again about your decision not to do any more treatment". Tell me about it and what you are thinking. She explains her reasoning. And he says "I get it, I get it, but I need to be sure you are happy with your decision". She says she is just not strong enough that she has been through too much. He says I understand and it is your decision to make, and you know... if you want to U-turn on that and start treatment you can"
She says her kids understand her decision, "oh you've talked with your children, and discussed it?" says he. Yes, they understand, they have said they think I am brave and have done more then they could have done.


He then talks with her "well you know where this is going don't you?"
Yes, she says, and I want to be at home... if I can.
Yes you can be at home says the doctor, we will support you with what ever you need, And we can get someone to come in every day and help you, you know have a shower and things like that. She jokes with him about just needing a hose down in the yard and he laughs with her.


It was just so "human".


This is real life.
This is a dignified life.
And so sadly, but thankfully, a dignified death.


This is the type of dignified conversation that a woman and her doctor need to have behind the closed door about a woman's decision to have or not to have a termination.


It's every woman's decision for herself. With support from her healthcare provider what she chooses.


Trust women.
Repeal the 8th.

It wasnt me123

I wouldn't think there would be tv debates. As I see it, this is a personal choice issue for each individual, not a governmental/political party issue.
Repeal will win with a landslide, posters now going up around the country, canvassing started, anyone under 50 will vote yes. I predict 70/30 win for repeal.

On a personal note, its lovely to see Bertie back, he wasn't on the "roster" yesterday, we had forestfair - who wasn't as jolly as Bertie even if Bertie continues to pedal the same old same old sh*te that even he can't substantiate, I missed his dribble drivel

Annasopra

bertieinexile wrote: »

So I'm sure at this stage my point is clear -
Any discussion we might have about the legal distinction between between "injury" and ""serious harm" is completely irrelevant from a practical point of view.
Why?
Because it will be left up to Marie Stopes clinics to worry about that difference.
And based on how they operate in england it is safe to say they don't care.

The only thing you seem ready to challenge about that reasoning is the idea that Marie Stopes clinics will set up here.
(The international experience with your pregnancy counselling legislation is that the only time it gets implemented is to force pro life counselling groups to make women aware of abortion options)

Any reasonable person can see that Marie Stopes clinics will of course be setting up here.

Firstly their official position is that they are awaiting the outcome of the referendum before declaring their intentions.
This is precisely because of how scary and offputting their behaviour is and how damaging the prospect of them setting up here is to the pro life side in this referendum.
But we still have this
https://www.thesun.ie/news/2142855/controversial-abortion-service-marie-stopes-signals-it-may-launch-in-ireland-if-eighth-amendment-is-repealed/
What does any reasonable person think that says about their intention to set up here?

But a way stronger and more convincing reason Marie Stopes, and all the other english clinics, would be operating here after a yes vote is that they are a driven, hugely profitable "not-for-profit" business, ( ~60,000 abortions a year in UK, private cost €600 - €2100 each ) and a brand new wealthy market would have opened up on their doorstep.
Come on seriously what's going to happen if there's a yes vote? Can you give any argument, any reason, to support what seems like your last ditch assertion that they wouldn't want to come here?

How much of a business are they?
How cut throat?
How industrial is the on demand/on laughable "health grounds", taking of life that takes place in these clinics up to 24 weeks?
Here's a consultant who worked in one
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4284290/Marie-Stopes-abortions-signed-just-phonecall.html
Or try this
One of Britain's largest abortion providers 'paid its staff bonuses for encouraging women to go through with procedures' claims watchdog in damning report

You really want to claim Marie Stopes and all the other clinics are going to pass up a massive business opportunity right on their doorstep. Give me even a half decent reason why they wouldn't come here.

If you vote Yes this is what you are voting for.
On demand and up to 24 weeks.

Yeah ok they might set up here - They still have to be regulated under Irish law. How come if you are so concened about them in the UK you are not campaigning to reverse the 13th amendment.

I will be voting yes. Your constant repetetive soapboxing about "On demand" up to 24 weeks is pure bunkum. You have nothing to prove it at all.

amdublin

Coincidentally that tv program (series) in on right now on 3e - Keeping Canada Alive - check it out!!!

Annasopra

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I wouldn't think there would be tv debates. As I see it, this is a personal choice issue for each individual, not a governmental/political party issue.
Repeal will win with a landslide, posters now going up around the country, canvassing started, anyone under 50 will vote yes. I predict 70/30 win for repeal.

Of course there will be TV debates. I think it is naive to think Repeal is going to win by a landslide. Really Really naive.

bertieinexile

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

On a personal note, its lovely to see Bertie back,...

* Chest slap. Wipes away a tear. *

Zubeneschamali

bertieinexile wrote: »

Any discussion we might have about the legal distinction between between "injury" and ""serious harm" is completely irrelevant from a practical point of view. Why? Because it will be left up to Marie Stopes clinics to worry about that difference.

But by your logic, they should have set up shop in Ireland in 1992, since the 8th made abortion legal here when the woman's life is in danger. According to yourself, these people have no problem lying about reasons for abortion, so why didn't they do as you suggest then?

Because you are talking out of your pants, that's why.

It wasnt me123

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course there will be TV debates. I think it is naive to think Repeal is going to win by a landslide. Really Really naive.

Well I disagree with you. I for one would not like to see IONA and their ilk on tv peddaling their nonsence, do you really think anyone has an appetite for that?

And my prediction is that it will be a landslide.

Anyone under 50 hasn't voted on this issue but the stories of Savita and others that are high profile like the Miss P case, together with the child predators in the church, Tuam babies in the laundries and other religious industrial establishments show up the religious for the hypocrites that they are.

Regardless of what people say on the census forms, the churches are empty most Sundays, they can't entice any new recruits - I know teenagers that have never seen a nun (lucky them I say - most of the ones I knew in my youth were quite violent).

I think Ireland has finally grown up and people want to live in a modern, liberal and non judgemental country.

I know that its a question of choice (and I've made it a religious issue in this post) but to some it comes down to this. Do I trust the church - who have shown they can't be trusted - or do I trust my own judgement and the judgement of women in general to deal with their own body autonomy.

Repeal all the way in a landslide

It wasnt me123

bertieinexile wrote: »

* Chest slap. Wipes away a tear. *

Bertie you do know that only Americans do that chest slap business - you need to refer back to your manual to concentrate on your oirishness

Simi

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course there will be TV debates. I think it is naive to think Repeal is going to win by a landslide. Really Really naive.

+1 Marriage equality passed with 62% in favour. Polling showed support in the high 70's in the run up to the referendum.

Support for repeal isn't and has never been as high. The no side will always have a big turn out on the day, so though I firmly believe the majority of Irish people support repeal and will vote to repeal the eight, it could be very close.

Which is why it's so important to have conversions with parents, grand parents, wider family and friends about not just why you are voting for repeal, but why it's so important they do too.

Those face to face conversions had more impact on the final result of the marriage equality referendum than any tv debate, poster or Twitter campaign ever could.

It wasnt me123

Simi wrote: »

Which is why it's so important to have conversions with parents, grand parents, wider family and friends about not just why you are voting for repeal, but why it's so important they do too.

I totally agree, I'm bringing it up in most conversations - even with patients, regardless of age and I had a former Christian brother in yesterday. The secrecy and shame that was part of our lives for many years has to go. Women want and are demanding body autonomy and I will tell everyone I meet exactly this, regardless of whether they want to hear me or not.

Repeal all the way, nobody should tell me what to do with my eggs!

bertieinexile

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Bertie you do know that only Americans do that chest slap business - you need to refer back to your manual to concentrate on your oirishness

Shoot!


If there's one thing that riles me more than a man kickin' my mule it's 'ombre don't appreciate new Golden Maverick. *


*Can you tell I'm running out of this stuff?

swampgas

bertieinexile wrote: »

*Can you tell I'm running out of this stuff?

You certainly seem to be running out of answers to difficult questions.

mikemac2

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be added to the Register of Electors. The only exception to this is in the case of Irish officials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the Postal Voters List.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad, you cannot be entered on the Register of Electors and cannot vote in an election or referendum in Ireland

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/spain/our-services/new-to-spain/voting-for-irish-citizens/

#hometovote on twitter has people showing their flight confirmations and are so proud to be voting

They fact they are not allowed does not seem to bother anyone

January

mikemac2 wrote: »

#hometovote on twitter has people showing their flight confirmations and are so proud to be voting

They fact they are not allowed does not seem to bother anyone

Depends on their circumstances. If they've left in the last 18 months they can or if they plan to return within 18 months they can too.

erica74

applehunter wrote: »

It is 1 in 5 AFAIK.

It's a shocking statistic.

In fairness, I should have elaborated. What I was talking about was claims like that being made without context. Without context it sounds like every abortion is the same and every woman seeking an abortion is the same and that couldn't be further from the truth.

mikemac2

That isn’t anywhere on the Department of Foreign Affairs website or citizens information though

Sure nobody could disprove you intend to return to Ireland within 18 months which would leave a loophole so wide the rule becomes pointless

Edit so it is there but aimed at students and not emigrants who I was reading on twitter

erica74

mikemac2 wrote: »

#hometovote on twitter has people showing their flight confirmations and are so proud to be voting

They fact they are not allowed does not seem to bother anyone

I don't understand why they shouldn't be allowed to vote, all Irish citizens should have a say in something of this importance.

January wrote: »

Depends on their circumstances. If they've left in the last 18 months they can or if they plan to return within 18 months they can too.

Which would probably make up a huge amount of Irish people living abroad.

Annasopra

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Well I disagree with you. I for one would not like to see IONA and their ilk on tv peddaling their nonsence, do you really think anyone has an appetite for that?

And my prediction is that it will be a landslide.

Anyone under 50 hasn't voted on this issue but the stories of Savita and others that are high profile like the Miss P case, together with the child predators in the church, Tuam babies in the laundries and other religious industrial establishments show up the religious for the hypocrites that they are.

Regardless of what people say on the census forms, the churches are empty most Sundays, they can't entice any new recruits - I know teenagers that have never seen a nun (lucky them I say - most of the ones I knew in my youth were quite violent).

I think Ireland has finally grown up and people want to live in a modern, liberal and non judgemental country.

I know that its a question of choice (and I've made it a religious issue in this post) but to some it comes down to this. Do I trust the church - who have shown they can't be trusted - or do I trust my own judgement and the judgement of women in general to deal with their own body autonomy.

Repeal all the way in a landslide

I know you are passionate about this but lets get realistic.

1 It doesnt matter about peoples appetite for debate. David Quinn, Maria Steen, Katie Ascough, John McGuirk will all be on tv debates
2 Repeal is doing a good job upto now but it is not guaranteed to win at all. The polls do not show it to be a landslide.
3 Actually you may or may not have noticed but almost none of the pro life campaign has been religious based. They are trying to distance themself from religion.
4 Lets not pigeon hole people based on age. There are lots of pro life people under 50! They did get a huge crowd out last month.
5 I have just seen something local canvassing data. There is a huge swathe undecided. This really could go either way based on what I have seen!
6 Sorry but no this referendum has to be fought hard for on the doorsteps - Naive complacency like yours will not motivate and will lose it for us!!!!

Annasopra

mikemac2 wrote: »

#hometovote on twitter has people showing their flight confirmations and are so proud to be voting

They fact they are not allowed does not seem to bother anyone

A lot of them can!!!

NuMarvel

mikemac2 wrote: »

That isn’t anywhere on the Department of Foreign Affairs website or citizens information though

Sure nobody could disprove you intend to return to Ireland within 18 months which would leave a loophole so wide the rule becomes pointless

Edit so it is there but aimed at students and not emigrants who I was reading on twitter

The 18 months applies to all registered voters, not just students. From the Electoral Act 1992, Section 11(3)(a):

"a person shall be deemed not to have given up ordinary residence if he intends to resume residence within eighteen months after giving it up"

It wasnt me123

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I know you are passionate about this but lets get realistic......

I'm not niave and I do genuinely believe it will be a landslide victory for repeal.

In relation to the tv debates you mentioned, I first thought like the US presidential debates, pro on oneside, choice on the other but on a second reading of your post I think you mean shows like Pat Kenny, Claire Byrne etc and yes I could see those people you mentioned on shows likes that. I just misunderstood what you meant.

I've never taken part in a poll; noone I know has ever taken part so I'm not sure they represent a proper cross section of society.

I did say that I had made my post religious and that the prolife posters hadn't, but I live in rural Ireland, some people are hedging their bets (don't believe but....... better not say that out loud just in case).

The huge crowd you refer to must have been in Dublin, no such outpouring of worry for my ovaries down here. I just googled it, organisers say 100,000 attended out of approx 1 million in Dublin, about 10%. I've only marched once in my life (I'm not young) and that was for cancer treatment centre in the south east - lots of people don't march, doesn't mean they agree.

I'm not complacent, I'm very realistic, but just maybe due to my age and rural abode, maybe I see things differently. We all want repeal and there's more than one way to get there, lets just agree to disagree and get back to dissing Bertie or is it TheeGlitz now (I'm convinced they are on a roster)

amdublin

I don't think dissing other posters should be a tactic whatsoever. For either side.

It is interesting to hear what the opposite (pro life) side is thinking and being able to tease out why it's bunkum.

No where near 100,000 attended but a good few came up from the country for the march, so not all dubs or based in Dublin.

It might be closer than some think, but as long as it's repealed is what matters.

amdublin

DubInMeath wrote: »

It might be closer than some think, but as long as it's repealed is what matters.

Agree

Don't care if it's 51 to 49. As long as it's repealed

It wasnt me123

amdublin wrote: »

I don't think dissing other posters should be a tactic whatsoever. For either side.

I was joking!!!! I have been joking in posts with Bertie for the last few days, that's what that sentence referred to.

Timberrrrrrrr

mikemac2 wrote: »

#hometovote on twitter has people showing their flight confirmations and are so proud to be voting

They fact they are not allowed does not seem to bother anyone

I live in the UK now, I have booked flights to come back to Dublin for the day to vote.

NuMarvel

I'm not following the entire discussion around British private service providers setting up in Ireland, but just bear in mind that our service delivery model will be different to Britain's.

In the first 12 weeks, when most abortions are carried out, a woman in Ireland would just need to visit a GP of family planning clinic to be prescribed the abortion pill. In Britain, the approval of two doctors is needed, even early on in pregnancy, which in practical terms would mean visiting a dedicated clinic or hospital.

Even if only a quarter of the GPs in Ireland agreed to provide abortion services, that's still over 500 GPs around the country.

As for surgical abortions, I don't think the numbers would justify the investment in infrastructure, technology, and personnel, even if it was the only facility in the country to offer these abortions (which it wouldn't be).

If Marie Stopes or someone else sets up, it'll be most likely as a wider family planning service, where medical abortions up to 12 weeks are one service. I can't see them offering surgical abortions "on demand up to 24 weeks" because a) the law as proposed doesn't allow that, and b) even if it did, a new service provider wouldn't get the number of patients needed to justify the investment.

January

Hundreds of people turned up for a love both rally in drogheda today lol

https://twitter.com/LoveBothDrog/status/980108146134970368?s=19