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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #332
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was the state who decided she wanted an abortion when she didn't, it was the state who decided her parents were wrong when they said she didn't want an abortion. It was the state who left her more damaged than the rape, going by her words.
    Then we are being asked to remove the 8th amendment from the constitution and trust politicians where one - Minister Regina Doherty implies people like the now woman at the centre of this case is ignorant when it comes to abortion despite her having had an abortion.

    If she didn't want the abortion and was coerced into having one is it any wonder she has regrets?

    I don't trust politicians but I do trust women. One girls experience in the mid 90's is no reason to restrict abortion.


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    #333
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was the state who decided she wanted an abortion when she didn't, it was the state who decided her parents were wrong when they said she didn't want an abortion. It was the state who left her more damaged than the rape, going by her words.
    Then we are being asked to remove the 8th amendment from the constitution and trust politicians where one - Minister Regina Doherty implies people like the now woman at the centre of this case is ignorant when it comes to abortion despite her having had an abortion.

    Actually, the state didn't decide she wanted an abortion when she didn't. She openly states that she didn't understand what an abortion was and thought she was being brought to deliver her baby elsewhere. That doesn't mean she was given an abortion against her will.

    I'm not sure what stage of the pregnancy the abortion took place at btw so it was possible it was before the point of viability so couldn't have resulted in a live birth. But she was 13, why anyone would want a 13 year old girl to give birth to a baby is baffling. The damage that could have been caused to her could have been catastrophic, a 13 year olds body is not built to birth a full term baby.


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    #334
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    January wrote: »
    No, he believes that if we don't support women being able to kill babies up to and including the day before birth then we're not fully pro-choice.

    He's just trying to make one of us hysterical so we can be banned from the thread.

    Yep, you got that right, I'm picking up on that too so I've put him on ignore.


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    #335
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    January wrote: »
    No, he believes that if we don't support women being able to kill babies up to and including the day before birth then we're not fully pro-choice.

    He's just trying to make one of us hysterical so we can be banned from the thread.

    Aparently from reading his post he can actually read the minds of anyone who disagrees with him, myself especially, and knows what we would and wouldn't support.

    With a talent like that he should take the show on the road.


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    #336
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Can you stop treating children as potential evidence? It's offensive to both survivors of rape and those conceived as a result of it. Everyone here thinks a woman should have a choice in that scenario.

    In relation to why women don't report, all you have to do is look how women are treated in rape trials. They're treated as criminals effectively and conviction rates are notoriously low. So attributing blame to a woman not coming forward, that's because of the system.

    It's an immense trauma and you're simplifying it. Also giving not an iota of consideration for their mental health in the process. It has been explained to you but you're ignoring it.

    I am not blaming women, don't know where you got that conclusion, I said unintentional because I think there needs to be ads on TV telling people - men and women who are raped that they should seek immediate help, as the evidence will be there. I think there should be a lot more done to remove stigma over being sexually assaulted and encouraging, explaining why and how one will be treated when they come forward would help far more people to come forward and help get higher conviction rates when DNA can be used, rather than he said/she said and lower conviction rates as people can't say x person is guilty if they are not sure.


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    #337
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was the state who decided she wanted an abortion when she didn't, it was the state who decided her parents were wrong when they said she didn't want an abortion. It was the state who left her more damaged than the rape, going by her words.
    Then we are being asked to remove the 8th amendment from the constitution and trust politicians where one - Minister Regina Doherty implies people like the now woman at the centre of this case is ignorant when it comes to abortion despite her having had an abortion.

    She didn’t have any CHOICE, that is where the issue is. The state decided that it knew what she wanted better than she did, which is what is still happening now. That girl had no choice, which is what Irish women want - a choice in what happens to them.


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    #338
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    Actually, the state didn't decide she wanted an abortion when she didn't. She openly states that she didn't understand what an abortion was and thought she was being brought to deliver her baby elsewhere. That doesn't mean she was given an abortion against her will.

    I'm not sure what stage of the pregnancy the abortion took place at btw so it was possible it was before the point of viability so couldn't have resulted in a live birth. But she was 13, why anyone would want a 13 year old girl to give birth to a baby is baffling. The damage that could have been caused to her could have been catastrophic, a 13 year olds body is not built to birth a full term baby.

    She said she didn't want to keep the baby, the state assumed it was she wanted an abortion, she said she didn't know what an abortion even was, she wanted to give her baby away for adoption, but the state workers assumed she was talking about an abortion. She told Pat Kenny she had asked to see her baby thinking the baby would be alive. She then found out what an abortion was, it wasn't the same as adoption...


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    #339
    Madscientist30
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Madscientist30


    RobertKK wrote: »
    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Can you stop treating children as potential evidence? It's offensive to both survivors of rape and those conceived as a result of it. Everyone here thinks a woman should have a choice in that scenario.

    In relation to why women don't report, all you have to do is look how women are treated in rape trials. They're treated as criminals effectively and conviction rates are notoriously low. So attributing blame to a woman not coming forward, that's because of the system.

    It's an immense trauma and you're simplifying it. Also giving not an iota of consideration for their mental health in the process. It has been explained to you but you're ignoring it.

    I am not blaming women, don't know where you got that conclusion, I said unintentional because I think there needs to be ads on TV telling people - men and women who are raped that they should seek immediate help, as the evidence will be there. I think there should be a lot more done to remove stigma over being sexually assaulted and encouraging, explaining why and how one will be treated when they come forward would help far more people to come forward and help get higher conviction rates when DNA can be used, rather than he said/she said and lower conviction rates as people can't say x person is guilty if they are not sure.
    Then why not spend your time campaigning for that???


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    #340
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Madscientist30 wrote: »
    Then why not spend your time campaigning for that???

    This thread is about the 8th amendment, not my views on how things should be made far easier for people who have been sexual assaulted, and information campaigns on making people aware of what to do if sexually assaulted.


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    #341
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    She said she didn't want to keep the baby, the state assumed it was she wanted an abortion, she said she didn't know what an abortion even was, she wanted to give her baby away for adoption, but the state workers assumed she was talking about an abortion. She told Pat Kenny she had asked to see her baby thinking the baby would be alive. She then found out what an abortion was, it wasn't the same as adoption...

    All of this has no relevance to the debate.


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    #342
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    She said she didn't want to keep the baby, the state assumed it was she wanted an abortion, she said she didn't know what an abortion even was, she wanted to give her baby away for adoption, but the state workers assumed she was talking about an abortion. She told Pat Kenny she had asked to see her baby thinking the baby would be alive. She then found out what an abortion was, it wasn't the same as adoption...

    She didn't even know how a baby was made. Didn't understand how she could have gotten pregnant. Yes there were failings by the EHB but that doesn't mean she was forced to have an abortion against her will, she just didn't understand what an abortion was.


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    #343
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    eviltwin wrote: »
    All of this has no relevance to the debate.

    So the state wanting to bring in legalised abortion has no relevance to the same state who gave a girl in the care of the state an abortion she didn't want.
    Can you tell me what checks and balances the state have put in, or are putting in giving they made this monumental mistake in the past?


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    #344
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I am not blaming women, don't know where you got that conclusion, I said unintentional because I think there needs to be ads on TV telling people - men and women who are raped that they should seek immediate help, as the evidence will be there. I think there should be a lot more done to remove stigma over being sexually assaulted and encouraging, explaining why and how one will be treated when they come forward would help far more people to come forward and help get higher conviction rates when DNA can be used, rather than he said/she said and lower conviction rates as people can't say x person is guilty if they are not sure.

    Conviction rates are notoriously low. A woman's entire sexual history will be used against her in a trial and it will basically try to diminish her credibility as much as possible. I totally agree stigma on reporting should be reduced but the very system makes women far less likely to report. It has nothing to do with abortion tbh.

    Some info from the rape crisis clinic below.
    FACT 5: Reporting rape or sexual assault involves complex, invasive and sometimes traumatic procedures. Women who have been subjected to rape or sexual assault are often treated with suspicion and disbelief. This makes it unlikely that a woman would make and stick with a false accusation of rape.

    IMPACT: Family, friends and acquaintances, without considering the above, do not believe the survivors, especially if they know the rapist. They suspect the survivor wants revenge or regrets what he/she did. As a result, survivors do not report or proceed with prosecution. This reinforces others in the belief that the survivors lied in the first place.
    ...

    Rape is not a well reported crime. In the Rape Crisis Network National Statistics 2015, fewer than 32% of survivors reported the sexual violence to the Gardaí. Fear of not being believed, of hurting loved ones (for example, if the rapist is a family member), or fear of the attacker can cause a survivor not to report. Also, many survivors simply try to forget that it ever happened.

    https://www.rapecrisis.ie/statistics.html



    Yep, you are being entirely insensitive and have already stated you expect women to continue the pregnancy even in the case of rape. As the child could be evidence at a later date. No consideration to the physical ad emotional strain if the woman does not wish to continue the pregnancy.


    You should also take note of the rape crisis center's view on pregnancy as a result of rape. It's a hell of a lot more sensitive than views you're espousing.
    8% of females attending RCCs in 2013 became pregnant as a result of rape. RCNI and RCCs support survivors’
    choices, whatever they may be.

    http://www.rcni.ie/wp-content/uploads/RCNI-National-Statistics-2013.pdf


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    #345
    Madscientist30
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Madscientist30


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Madscientist30 wrote: »
    Then why not spend your time campaigning for that???

    This thread is about the 8th amendment, not my views on how things should be made far easier for people who have been sexual assaulted, and information campaigns on making people aware of what to do if sexually assaulted.
    Well then why lay out these views in this thread about the 8th amendment. As you said it is irrevelant to the issue at hand.


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    #346
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    She didn't even know how a baby was made. Didn't understand how she could have gotten pregnant. Yes there were failings by the EHB but that doesn't mean she was forced to have an abortion against her will, she just didn't understand what an abortion was.

    It was forced given the state failed to tell the girl exactly what an abortion was, the same state who failed to listen to her parents, the state knew best...


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    #347
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Madscientist30 wrote: »
    Well then why lay out these views in this thread about the 8th amendment. As you said it is irrevelant to the issue at hand.

    Because it was part of a reply on rape. To continue taking about what I think should be done in regards to sexual assault was not relevant in the wider context as one could start a different thread on that.


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    #348
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was forced given the state failed to tell the girl exactly what an abortion was, the same state who failed to listen to her parents, the state knew best...

    But the 8th amendment was in place when this case happened, no? So repealing it or not would make no difference to the outcome, no? Or am I missing something?


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    #349
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was forced given the state failed to tell the girl exactly what an abortion was, the same state who failed to listen to her parents, the state knew best...

    The parents who failed to tell the girl, when she was 13 years old what sex was and how babies were made? Yeah... I'm not surprised the state didn't listen to her parents.


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    #350
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    So the state wanting to bring in legalised abortion has no relevance to the same state who gave a girl in the care of the state an abortion she didn't want.
    Can you tell me what checks and balances the state have put in, or are putting in giving they made this monumental mistake in the past?

    so what connection does a vulnerable girl 20 years ago have to a woman in 2018 who wants an abortion?


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    #351
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was forced given the state failed to tell the girl exactly what an abortion was, the same state who failed to listen to her parents, the state knew best...

    I knew I remembered someone who kept bringing up the C case immediately after castigating other posters for 'using' the Savita Halappanavar case to argue for liberalized abortion access

    4 years later and you're still shamelessly using the C case...

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91806152&postcount=1923


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    #352
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    neonsofa wrote: »
    But the 8th amendment was in place when this case happened, no? So repealing it or not would make no difference to the outcome, no? Or am I missing something?

    She was viewed as being suicidal and the X case was used to take her to England for an abortion which she didn't understand or want.
    We are being asked to trust the state in unrestricted abortion, and they have shown they were not capable in the past and there is no evidence they are capable today. How do we know it is not like the bed crisis in the hospitals which has been going on forever...?


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    #353
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,457 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    She was viewed as being suicidal and the X case was used to take her to England for an abortion which she didn't understand or want.
    We are being asked to trust the state in unrestricted abortion, and they have shown they were not capable in the past and there is no evidence they are capable today. How do we know it is not like the bed crisis in the hospitals which has been going on forever...?

    and here was me thinking it was women we were being asked to trust.


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    #354
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    RobertKK wrote: »
    We are being asked to trust the state in unrestricted abortion,

    That's not true.


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    #355
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    B0jangles wrote: »
    I knew I remembered someone who kept bringing up the C case immediately after castigating other posters for 'using' the Savita Halappanavar case to argue for liberalized abortion access

    4 years later and you're still shamelessly using the C case...

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91806152&postcount=1923

    The woman at the centre of the C Case had a problem with people for abortion using her, giving she is against it.

    She said "My name – the C-case girl – is brought up on radio and TV all the time these days as if I'm an ad for abortion."


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    #356
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Edward M wrote: »
    That's not true.

    That reply has no substance to back up what you say.


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    #357
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The woman at the centre of the C Case had a problem with people for abortion using her, giving she is against it.

    She said "My name – the C-case girl – is brought up on radio and TV all the time these days as if I'm an ad for abortion."

    The Rape Crisis Centre respect the decision of women, whatever choice they make. That would be where I stand on it and I imagine most. Don't think anyone here wants the state to actually decide if you want an abortion or not.


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    #358
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    and here was me thinking it was women we were being asked to trust.

    More men than women are for repeal.
    Most women I know are pro-retain and I trust them.


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    #359
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    More men than women are for repeal.
    Most women I know are pro-retain and I trust them.

    Do you trust women who are pro repeal?


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    #360
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    The Rape Crisis Centre respect the decision of women, whatever choice they make. That would be where I stand on it and I imagine most. Don't think anyone here wants the state to actually decide if you want an abortion or not.

    It was probably pro-choice people who thought they were doing what the girl wanted but failed to educate her on what abortion actually was. I think pro-life people might have tried harder to educate her and might have saved her the mental distress.


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    #361
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It was probably pro-choice people who thought they were doing what the girl wanted but failed to educate her on what abortion actually was. I think pro-life people might have tried harder to educate her and might have saved her the mental distress.

    You're making some pretty unique conclusions while ignoring the majority of my multiple responses to you. :rolleyes:


This discussion has been closed.
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