The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

_Dara_

Trasna1 wrote: »

Those that I know that voted were gone longer than 18 months and had no intention of returning.

Fraud was encouraged because those traveling were likely to vote the "right" way. The way such willful undermining of the electoral process was celebrated in the media was truly awful.

It’s a loophole that needs to be closed and it’s not right that someone out of the country for good or like long-term was able to vote. BUT like I said, it’s a loophole - why did the No side not exploit it? Those voters wouldn’t have been stopped either. And you can be damn sure people will be coming from abroad to vote to save the 8th. Don’t kid yourself otherwise.

Until they figure out a way to close out this loophole, it will happen. Don’t be sore about that.

JDD

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Plus it can impact on a lot of them in quite a harsh way - many of them because of their migration status may not be able to travel

Well, that I agree is harsh. But in general I believe that constitutional elections should be for Irish citizens living in Ireland only, given the near to permanent nature of any such amendments. Any country will have waves of non-nationals that will come and go according to how the economy is doing. While I'm happy for them to have a vote in local and national elections - after all, they pay their tax here, they should have a vote on how it is spent - a constitutional vote is different. It should only be for people who are born here, or who have lived here for more than five years and have a strong enough connection to the country that they are willing to save and apply for a passport.

I agree that the cost of a passport is on the high side, but presumably it is because some investigations that have to be done before approving an application are costly and time intensive, and the remainder of the applicants must subsidise that cost so that there's a flat fee no matter which country you come from.

I've no problem with that. Irish campaigners using Irish funds should contest
Irish elections and referendums.

It's no one else's business.

That, at least, we can all agree on.

Annasopra

JDD wrote: »

Well, that I agree is harsh. But in general I believe that constitutional elections should be for Irish citizens living in Ireland only, given the near to permanent nature of any such amendments. Any country will have waves of non-nationals that will come and go according to how the economy is doing. While I'm happy for them to have a vote in local and national elections - after all, they pay their tax here, they should have a vote on how it is spent - a constitutional vote is different. It should only be for people who are born here, or who have lived here for more than five years and have a strong enough connection to the country that they are willing to save and apply for a passport.

I agree that the cost of a passport is on the high side, but presumably it is because some investigations that have to be done before approving an application are costly and time intensive, and the remainder of the applicants must subsidise that cost so that there's a flat fee no matter which country you come from.

That, at least, we can all agree on.

The rules for elections can be very disenfranchising for migrants in general. My friend lives in Switzerland. He cant vote in Ireland because he doesnt live here. He cant vote in Switzerland because he is not a citizen so he has no vote anywhere.

Imhof Tank

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

Annasopra

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

The tactic of letting "licence to kill" etc up first is deliberate. I dont think lots of no posters worry repeal campaign too much given how nasty they are. Remember that the nastiness of the No posters for marriage equality swung a lot of voters in favour of marriage equality. The save the 8th crowd have not learned that lesson!

McTigs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The tactic of letting "licence to kill" etc up first is deliberate. I dont think lots of no posters worry repeal campaign too much given how nasty they are. Remember that the nastiness of the No posters for marriage equality swung a lot of voters in favour of marriage equality. The save the 8th crowd have not learned that lesson!

There was a big "Babies Will Die" put up on the lampost outside my house. I phoned the guards and complained, said it was offensive and UNTRUE and didn't want my daughters (7 and 5) reading it and getting upset (older one definitely would) and they said feel free to take it down.... so i did.

I've cut it up now and it makes a very handy kneeler for when weeding the garden

garbo speaks

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

Are you saying our mainstream liberal Irish media are actually biased in favour of repeal? Shock horror!

Zerbini Blewitt

Imhof Tank wrote: »

...
I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

That’s only true for those who were not paying attention.

Approximately half the polls were predicting a leave win in the 5 months leading up to the Brexit ref.

Of course, there will be far fewer polls in this campaign, in comparison.

Annasopra

McTigs wrote: »

There was a big "Babies Will Die" put up on the lampost outside my house. I phoned the guards and complained, said it was offensive and UNTRUE and didn't want my daughters (7 and 5) reading it and getting upset (older one definitely would) and they said feel free to take it down.... so i did.

I've cut it up now and it makes a very handy kneeler for when weeding the garden

The guards told you to break the law?

Ave Sodalis

I heard on the radio that posters put up on electricity poles (from either side) will be taken down, and it may interrupt electricity supplies to do so. Just something to bear in mind if you are putting up posters.

Annasopra

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I heard on the radio that posters put up on electricity poles (from either side) will be taken down, and it may interrupt electricity supplies to do so. Just something to bear in mind if you are putting up posters.

I think Yes HQ are possibly paying a company and all the parties (as far as I know SF, PBP, Solidarity, Soc Dems, Labour will all have posters and FF and FG wont but I might be wrong) will do whatever they normally do

NuMarvel

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I see the repeal side denying today that they are behind in the "Poster War"

Spent the past weekend travelling around Clare/ South Galway and it is wall to wall No posters down there.

I was in England a week before the Brexit vote, West Midlands area well away from the London bubble, there were home made Leave banners and placards all over the roadsides. It seemed like very clear majority support for leave although you never got that sense from the mainstream media. Very similar IMO to how its looking now on the 8th vote.

The No side in the marriage equality referendum had their posters up early too, and it didn't really prove useful for them. In fact, I think the YesEquality group didn't get their posters up until about 3/4 weeks before the referendum (political parties might have had their up earlier).

Posters are certainly a useful tool to reinforce campaign messages, but they're not how referendums are won.

BabysCoffee

"Sometimes a private matter needs public support"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/together-for-yes-campaign-says-it-is-on-course-to-raise-500-000-1.3455596

I like this slogan. Tomorrow I will make a further donation to the campaign so more posters can be bought

posturingpat

garbo speaks wrote: »

Are you saying our mainstream liberal Irish media are actually biased in favour of repeal? Shock horror!

Surely not :eek:

McTigs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The guards told you to break the law?

i told them of the poster, they appeared to be aware of it and told me I was free to take it down.

I think the poster itself is breaking a law.... I’ll look up which one and come back

Sofiztikated

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The guards told you to break the law?

Wouldn't surprise me, noone ever seems to know it's an offense.

Edward M

Electric Ireland advises against putting up or taking down posters on their poles, its dangerous and its prohibited.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/putting-posters-on-electricity-poles-strictly-prohibited-says-esb-1.3453002?mode=amp

Timberrrrrrrr

Trasna1 wrote: »

If the vote is as tight as divorce and they're is a visible "home to vote" campaign, I would expect many legal challenges to the outcome with a real risk of it being a success. I know of people that came back for SSM that were not eligible, people who emigrated several years before the vote and who have not returned.

Irish citizens should not return to vote, the vast majority of citizens abroad are not eligible and furthermore the issue doesn't concern them. They should campaign for or against abortion in the countries they are resident in.

Money from overseas should not be allowed to be used in the campaigns either. Foreign meddling damages democracy.

Postering has been sporadic, I would have expected every pole to be covered already? Or are campaigns not meant to poster until one month out?

I have 2 daughters living in Ireland (26 & 25) and I will and returning to vote, you say it doesn't concern me? I would storm the gates of hell for those girls so returning to vote to ensure they are not forced to carry a child they may not want is the least I can do.

January

Delighted to see the maser repeal heart reinstated at the project arts centre in temple bar. It's become an iconic logo in the campaign.

Trasna1

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have 2 daughters living in Ireland (26 & 25) and I will and returning to vote, you say it doesn't concern me? I would storm the gates of hell for those girls so returning to vote to ensure they are not forced to carry a child they may not want is the least I can do.

Have you been out of the country (non-resident) for more than 18months? Or if not, do you intend to come back within 18 months of first becoming non resident? If the answer is no, then you have no business returning to vote.

amdublin

Delighted to see a social group I am part of on Facebook with 11k members reiterare their pro choice stance today.

They first announced they were pro choice in August 2017.

Posted today
"Hi all, just wanted to address some of the recent posts/reports that have been posted in the group. GirlCrew is a pro-choice organisation. We've actively campaigned to have the 8th removed, have created blog series, live videos, social posts on the issues and will continue to do so. There was a poll quite some time ago about allowing discussions beyond social things and the group voted to allow them. As the upcoming referendum is something that will impact us all we won't be removing posts on the issue unless we feel they breach our guidelines. Our principle guidelines is one of respect and I would stress this again to everyone, regardless of where you stand on the issue. We currently don't have the resources to monitor this group 24/7 so it may take a little bit of time before your report is reviewed as we do need sleep too But be assured, we do check every report made. To that end some posts/members may be removed as per our guidelines - this will be decided on a case by case basis as it always has been. Hope this clarifies things! "

amdublin

Trasna1 wrote: »

Have you been out of the country (non-resident) for more than 18months? Or if not, do you intend to come back within 18 months of first becoming non resident? If the answer is no, then you have no business returning to vote.

I think we can be confident that yes this poster intends coming back within 18 months

Trasna1

amdublin wrote: »

I think we can be confident that yes this poster intends coming back within 18 months

To become resident again? That is unclear. In fact the poster has implied that they intend to travel only for the vote.

Timberrrrrrrr

Trasna1 wrote: »

Have you been out of the country (non-resident) for more than 18months? Or if not, do you intend to come back within 18 months of first becoming non resident? If the answer is no, then you have no business returning to vote.

Out the country over 18 months and no intention to return other than holidays and to help repeal the 8th.

Im making it my business and couldn't give a tiny shiney sh/te who it bothers.

_Dara_

Trasna1 wrote: »

Have you been out of the country (non-resident) for more than 18months? Or if not, do you intend to come back within 18 months of first becoming non resident? If the answer is no, then you have no business returning to vote.

But he can so he will. This can't really be policed. Unless you have any suggestions? Other than 'computer says no'.

Trasna1

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Out the country over 18 months and no intention to return other than holidays and to help repeal the 8th.

Im making it my business and couldn't give a tiny shiney sh/te who it bothers.

Well should you return and vote you will be committing voter fraud.

I don't care what side you are for or against. This is an issue for resident Irish citizens to resolve, those that have to live with the consequences of their vote.

What if the margin either way is narrow like divorce? If home to vote existed then there is more than a strong possibility that the vote would have been ruled illegitimate. Irish citizens abroad can support from the sidelines if they wish, but that's where they should stay.

_Dara_

Trasna1 wrote: »

Well should you return and vote you will be committing voter fraud.

I don't care what side you are for or against. This is an issue for resident Irish citizens to resolve, those that have to live with the consequences of their vote.

What if the margin either way is narrow like divorce? If home to vote existed then there is more than a strong possibility that the vote would have been ruled illegitimate. Irish citizens abroad can support from the sidelines if they wish, but that's where they should stay.

This isn't one-sided though. It's likely to be a close campaign and those coming from abroad will probably split in a similar way.

You don't think that people who wanted to vote no in the MarRef were inspired by the 'Come home to vote' campaign? And more people seem to feel more strongly about this issue on both sides.

reubenreuben

Trasna1 wrote: »

Well should you return and vote you will be committing voter fraud.

I don't care what side you are for or against. This is an issue for resident Irish citizens to resolve, those that have to live with the consequences of their vote.

What if the margin either way is narrow like divorce? If home to vote existed then there is more than a strong possibility that the vote would have been ruled illegitimate. Irish citizens abroad can support from the sidelines if they wish, but that's where they should stay.

What about the half a million residents who are not citizens who have to live with the consequences of the vote. that they have no power over?

Timberrrrrrrr

Trasna1 wrote: »

Well should you return and vote you will be committing voter fraud.

Worth it to protect my daughter's.

I don't care what side you are for or against. This is an issue for resident Irish citizens to resolve, those that have to live with the consequences of their vote.

I lived there for 28 years, worked, paid taxes and raised a family so wether you agree or not I'm entitled to return to vote.

What if the margin either way is narrow like divorce? If home to vote existed then there is more than a strong possibility that the vote would have been ruled illegitimate. Irish citizens abroad can support from the sidelines if they wish, but that's where they should stay.

We're coming back to vote and there isn't a thing you or anyone can do about it.

Trasna1

_Dara_ wrote: »

This isn't one-sided though. It's likely to be a close campaign and those coming from abroad will probably split in a similar way.

You don't think that people who wanted to vote no in the MarRef were inspired by the 'Come home to vote' campaign? And more people seem to feel more strongly about this issue on both sides.

Home to vote for marriage equality was almost entirely for the yes vote, as I witnessed as a resident who was landing in Dublin airport the day before the vote. So let's not distort what actually happened.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, yes or no if you're not eligible you shouldn't vote. It's that simple. Keep our of it and let resident Irish citizens decide what kind of country they live in.