The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

SusieBlue

Just donated. Got a bit emotional reading through the comments on the list of people who donated.
Thank you to everyone who is doing their bit, whether it be financially, canvassing, sharing on social media, or posting here.
Every little bit helps our cause. Feeling very positive and grateful to all who are supporting in whatever way they can.
Repeal the 8th!!!

amdublin

The goal has been raided to €250k. From a starting goal of just €50k this morning. People are wonderful

It's at €151k now. Well was 5 minutes ago. Sure it will probably be up by now already!

Click here to donate (or even just to see that total going up and up!!)

https://togetherforyes.causevox.com/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf1

Zubeneschamali

bertieinexile wrote: »

The difference, since it apparently needs to be said, is that a doctor signing medical certificates saying a woman is suffering from septicemia or has an ectopic pregnancy - when she clearly isn't or doesn't - is going to be struck off.

There was no requirement for any such thing from 1992 until POLDPA was passed - the only valid word of law on abortion was the 8th amendment itself.

So all a doctor (who was prepared to lie) had to do was say that in his opinion the woman was at risk of death by suicide, and according to you, they are happy to lie their heads off to provide abortion.

Yet that never happened. On the contrary, they were so afraid of stepping over the line that they let women who really were at risk and asked for terminations die instead.

Because you are talking utter nonsense.

Hammer Archer

Donated €50.
My daughter was born just under 3 months ago. While I hope that she will never require an abortion in her life, if she does need one for any reason, I can't imagine how angry I'd be if she was forced to travel abroad for one so that certain people can live in their make believe, fantasy Ireland that has no abortions.

garbo speaks

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Triceratops Ballet

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

yeah it's a bit of a fad alright they've only been campaigning against it for 35 years, god they're so trendy it's unbearable!

ohnonotgmail

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

one of these days you might actually care about something.

B0jangles

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Is trying to annoy people on boards your only hobby? You'd probably be a happier person if you got out and about sometimes and talked to people

amdublin

There's a referendum coming up. A key component of referendums are posters. For ages the pro repeal side have been moaning
"When are we getting some posters up
"Where are our posters"
"All I see are those terrible plc posters

Well today we put our money where our mouth is and by god will we see posters up soon!

Annasopra

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I think I might donate just to annoy people like you some more

bear1

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Why does what people donate their money to matter to you?

Zubeneschamali

garbo speaks wrote: »

It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Ah, spring is here with the mating call of the Referendum Loser.

gmisk

I chipped in.

To be honest this Referendum isnt one that is going to effect me directly, but I believe a woman should be allowed to choose (up until a point - 12 weeks sounds sensible enough to most medical people so its ok by me).

The No posters (and billboards) are horrendous and seem to be everywhere (that American and Iona money must be coming in handy) so hopefully this helps to balance things out a bit.

Ave Sodalis

garbo speaks wrote:

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Do you donate your money to any of these causes? It's interesting how the "loony lefties" are more likely to campaign and fundraise for charities. You just so happen to be on a thread about a referendum and so if any donations is mentioned, it would be regarding the referendum. You can donate to more than one cause, you can care about more than one thing...

gmisk

Also I see pretty much all the same people saying No to the repeal as said No to the marriage referendum...so f#ck em!

B0jangles

Goodness me!

Grayson

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

Just paid for 5 posters there myself

I've been avoiding this thread for a while. Quite often it can be the same argument over and over again.


However i just popped back in, saw this post ans checked out what you were talking about.

And I've just paid for 5 posters too.

Grayson

B0jangles wrote: »

Goodness me!

I wish I'd thought of that

Frank Bullitt

Lashed in 20 quid myself.

I see John McGuirk is already questioning the legality of the donations, nothing new there.

gmisk

Gintonious wrote: »

Lashed in 20 quid myself.

I see John McGuirk is already questioning the legality of the donations, nothing new there.

Ah he would...sure the Iona institute (Is it still a charity?) gets hundreds of thousands in donations, not to mention the life institute....where is that dough coming from?

ohnonotgmail

B0jangles wrote: »

Goodness me!

Donated in the name of david quinn

ohnonotgmail

gmisk wrote: »

Ah he would...sure the Iona institute (Is it still a charity?) gets hundreds of thousands in donations, not to mention the life institute....where is that dough coming from?

i dont think it was ever a charity. it is registered as Lolek Ltd in the CRO..

gmisk

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i dont think it was ever a charity. it is registered as Lolek Ltd in the CRO..

This says otherwise
http://www.thejournal.ie/iona-institute-1826121-Dec2014/
Maybe that has changed?
But they still accept donations on their website I just checked.

gmisk

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i dont think it was ever a charity. it is registered as Lolek Ltd in the CRO..

According to their own website...it is both...

The Iona Institute is a private company limited by guarantee. The company number is 424940. The charity number is 17347.

ohnonotgmail

gmisk wrote: »

This says otherwise
http://www.thejournal.ie/iona-institute-1826121-Dec2014/
Maybe that has changed?
But they still accept donations on their website I just checked.

i stand corrected.

gmisk

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i stand corrected.

No worries I wasnt sure myself...it looks like it is both a registered company and a charity.

nice_guy80

Cannot understand why Opus Dei, sorry the Iona Institute keep on getting space in the media to spout their dogma

Triceratops Ballet

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cannot understand why Opus Dei, sorry the Iona Institute keep on getting space in the media to spout their dogma

Money! (and "balance")

erica74

Ah I'm annoyed, I didn't even think about donating in someone else's name, I just used my own name! Anyway, €50 donated, I was afraid I wouldn't make it in before they surpassed their next target, I think they're at nearly €190,000 already and, as someone else said, there will be a bit influx as people head home for the evening.

Keep reposting the link

https://togetherforyes.causevox.com/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf1

bertieinexile

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm not following the entire discussion around British private service providers setting up in Ireland, but just bear in mind that our service delivery model will be different to Britain's.

In the first 12 weeks, when most abortions are carried out, a woman in Ireland would just need to visit a GP of family planning clinic to be prescribed the abortion pill. In Britain, the approval of two doctors is needed, even early on in pregnancy, which in practical terms would mean visiting a dedicated clinic or hospital.

Even if only a quarter of the GPs in Ireland agreed to provide abortion services, that's still over 500 GPs around the country.

As for surgical abortions, I don't think the numbers would justify the investment in infrastructure, technology, and personnel, even if it was the only facility in the country to offer these abortions (which it wouldn't be).

If Marie Stopes or someone else sets up, it'll be most likely as a wider family planning service, where medical abortions up to 12 weeks are one service. I can't see them offering surgical abortions "on demand up to 24 weeks" because a) the law as proposed doesn't allow that, and b) even if it did, a new service provider wouldn't get the number of patients needed to justify the investment.

To repeat your own summing up, numarvel, you are arguing that Marie Stopes or some other clinic won't set up here for two reasons
(a) whether the law will allow it, which we've been discussing above, and
(b) a new service provider wouldn't get the number of patients needed to justify the investment.

Your second point is a very interesting one. Is the business there?
You are arguing above that Irish GPs will undercut Marie Stopes on both price and convenience for terminations in the first 12 weeks. I'm inclined to agree. It depends on whether GPs are going to send women for ultrasounds, but on the face of it a woman could end the life in her womb up to 12 weeks for as little as €160 - and for free if she has a medical card. And at locations probably as convenient as her local shops.
Marie Stopes clinics offer this medical abortion service to english women for a far pricier €640 (although that does include an ultrasound).
https://www.mariestopes.org.uk/abortion-services/fees/
It does look as if the money that would come from ending these lives up to 12 weeks would end up with local GPs.



But your question is essentially whether there is enough profit in surgical abortions to entice Marie Stopes to set up here. I think there is.

Firstly though, for anyone in any doubt that for the people who run these oragnisations and make these decisions this is purely about business, consider what happened with the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast.

They arrived there in 2012 carried out abortions for 5 years and then left in 2017 because.... the british government started offering women from the north free abortion services in england. The numbers weren't there to make it sustainable.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/closure-of-marie-stopes-belfast-clinic-ends-five-years-of-hostility-1.3318970

Following the UK Government’s move to fund abortion services for Northern Irish women using our clinics in England, ...we have taken the ...decision that our Belfast clinic will close in December 2017.

https://mariestopes.org/news/2017/12/media-statement-marie-stopes-uk-announces-closure-of-belfast-clinic/

And now as a result of a conscious decision by the UK government and Marie Stopes, women in the north must travel to england to have an abortion. I would guess that they looked at the example of the republic and saw that this travel had never been the source of any real health concerns. Whatever other difficulties there may or may not have been weren't enough to worry Marie Stopes or the british government.




I get your point, numarvel, that under Harris's mad poposed legislation abortions would be way cheaper and easier to get here up to 12 weeks than in england and that would somewhat reduce the market for abortions after 12 weeks. Still the amount of money involved in these later abortions, that GPs couldn't provide, is so much that clinics like Marie Stopes aren't going to turn it down.

The money available in england from ending the lives of children diagnosed with Down Syndrome alone is considerable.
According to Prof Fergal Malone, Master of the Rotunda and notorious fantasist the earliest a child can be daignosed with Down Syndrome is 12 weeks. An abortion at that point with Marie Stopes will cost €750-900 but if there is any delay in diagnosis, or any second thoughts, an abortion at 14 weeks will cost €1100 and after 19 weeks it's €2000.

But the main point is that according to uk satistics 38% of abortions carried out there in 2016 were surgical. So even if that number was reduced somewhat by the fact that it would be far easier and far cheaper to get an abortion up to 12 weeks in Ireland than is the case now in england, there is still so much money in surgical abortions that it seems like it would still be very lucrative.

No wonder Marie Stopes phone women at home who have decided not to have an abortion, and offer them a new appointment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4998810/Britain-s-largest-abortion-clinic-paid-staff-bonuses.html

No wonder 1 in 5 pregnancies in england end in abortion.


People are going to claim that the above is scaremongering. But everything above is factual. And yes it really is scary. It was horrible to type it out. But show me a line in it that isn't true. The reality of what is being proposed is just very ugly.

You can't vote yes unless you are comfortable with this.

On demand. Up to 24 weeks.