The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Hannibal_Smith

Turbohymac wrote: »

And the new generation that simply want an abort app on their phones & drone delivery of required advice & medication to terminate another life

Yeah down with freedom to choose.

gmisk

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Ah come on! We arent all millionaires!

bertieinexile

Martina1991 wrote: »

bertieinexile wrote:

No wonder Marie Stopes phone women at home who have decided not to have an abortion, and offer them a new appointment.

Ah the Daily Mail.
One of the finer scientific publications.

The allegations centre on Marie Stopes International and have come to light in a damning report by the official watchdog, the Care Quality Commission.
According to the report, staff felt 'encouraged' to ensure women went through with abortions because it was 'linked to their performance bonus'.
Inspectors found evidence of a policy – in place across all 70 Marie Stopes clinics in the country – whereby staff were told to call women who had decided not to have an abortion, and offer them a new appointment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4998810/Britain-s-largest-abortion-clinic-paid-staff-bonuses.html

amdublin

gmisk wrote: »

Ah come on! We arent all millionaires!

I'm down to fivers now... And only a few donations left in me at this stage.

But if repeal passes it will be a small price to pay for autonomy over my own body and mind

nozzferrahhtoo

Turbohymac wrote: »

It's absolutely amazing all those who want change has actually already been born

IF that amazes you then there has been a logical circuitry failure somewhere at the level of your brain. After all when was the last time you have seen someone not born "want" something.

Turbohymac wrote: »

.. their either very sad in their existing lives but I bet if the clock was turned back they would hope that their parents wouldn't terminate their chance of life when they were pre 12 weeks unborn..

A 12 week old fetus does not "want" anything any more than a rock or a table leg does. There is no one there to do any wanting in the first place.

Turbohymac wrote: »

for some of us citizens who has had years of uphill battles with failed ivf etc . We actually look a bit more positive to giving every life the chance it deserves.

Which is 100% a declaration of your own biases AND the reasons you hold that bias, and 0% a relevant point to make on the morality or utility of abortion.

Further your inability to do something (in this case to conceive naturally) places NO ONUS at all on others who can to do it on your behalf. There are likely many many people in wheelchairs that would love to get up and play a "normal" game of football too. But their inability to do it does not mean I should be expected to against my desires.

Turbohymac wrote: »

We all have opinions but it's sad to imagine just how little value has now been placed on human life

That is EXACTLY the opposite of what pro choice people are doing however. They are very much placing value on human life. They are just explicit over exactly WHAT it is they value and WHY they value it.

And it turns out that the vast majority of what it is we actually value in human life happens to be EXACTLY the things a fetus at 12 weeks of gestation lacks. Not just slightly lacks, but ENTIRELY lacks in any way.

So no, you do not get to pretend that us having a different set of standards of what we value about human life means we somehow do not value human life at all.

Doing that means nothing more than you are intent on distorting terminology to demean others, rather than engage with them with even a modicum of intellectual rigor or honesty.

Turbohymac wrote: »

I honestly don't think that many people in favour of abortion on demand actually realises just how others people value life having been through many options.

Or perhaps it is merely you who do not realize that just because you value something you can not even explain the basis of your value for, other than that you have been denied it yourself, does not translate onto any moral obligations in us at all. You are welcome to value what you want, but us not valuing it exactly the same way or for the same reasons is not a lack on our part. At all. Even a little bit.

Rather what we have done is sit down and ask ourselves what we value and why, and ask ourselves if some of the things we have previously valued actually warrant that value in the first place. And generally a fetus at 12 weeks appears to have no other basis for value other than screeching words like "Human" at it.

bertieinexile

I'm glad we have got to discussing how widely held your view of personhood is nozzferrahhtoo.

First though

Most of us do not see other people as people based on biological factors, but on sentience factors.

But your definition of the minimal requirements for sentience - and therefore for the first emergence of rights and first call on our ethical concern - is biological. The existence of regular waves in fetal brain activity.

And

I campaign for abortion up to and including week 16.

But right now we have a yes no referendum on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. If you want to campaign in this referendum these are the only two options you can campaign on.


Like I say I'm glad we've got to the point of discussing how widely held your views may be.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote:

I do not believe you are in a position to declare what "most people think". Have you conducted a study? Have you asked "most people"? I doubt it. I think you just enjoy, on numerous occasions, imagining what "many" or "most" people think in a way that wholly suits you. This is far from the first time I have had to call you on that move.

However I suspect if you bothered to conduct an actual study you will find "most people" actually do think that way. Or even if they do not explicitly, they still ACT on it.

So unable are you to rebut the positions I hold, that the sole response open to you seems to be to mischaracterize it with little phrases like this, or by inventing "most people" and declaring to know what they think. Neither of which is impressive or supporting any level of credibility for you in general.

And there you go again. You speak for YOU. All the other people you claim to speak for, or to know what they think, you appear to have simply invented to argument ad populum your own positions to...... well to yourself I guess because no one else appears to have bought into it yet.

Perhaps they are! But merely asserting or suggesting they are is not going to reveal that. Nor is imagining some "most people" agreeing with you that they are.

Yet is it not funny, and telling, that you continue to A) not actually rebut my arguments just moan about me having made them and claim that the majority of my "followers" as you put it do not agree with me despite my posts being thanked and yours not. This just tells me one thing.... you would be better rebutting my points directly, rather than moaning about them or fantasising what you WANT to believe others think about them.

So what do "most people" think?
Well let's put it to a test.

I showed you video of a 23 week old premature baby in an incubator.
https://youtu.be/2RQ8ks-UH0E?t=22s
I told you he is now a healthy 3 year old. You can even look up the parents account on youtube and see video of him playing.

Your definition of the minimum requirement for sentience, and the first hint of a right to life, is regular fetal brain activity. The child in the incubator in those pictures wouldn't have that.

You say

You are asking me about an entity at 22 weeks. It is outside the purview of my position therefore. However if a mother in the UK decided, after it's removal from her womb not to put it on life support and to let it die..... like we do with adult patients when we turn their life support off for example...... then I would not be losing any sleep over it.

Call me Al, crustybla, DubInMeath, Fizzlesque, frag420, January, PopePalpatine, Simi, swampgas and Yeah_Right all thanked you for that.

Like I said let's put the question of how popular your view is to the test.

Are any of Call me Al, crustybla, DubInMeath, Fizzlesque, frag420, January, PopePalpatine, Simi, swampgas or Yeah_Right ready to back you up in the idea you shouldn't lose sleep over someone taking the life of that child hooked up to tubes in that incubator.

Is there any pro choice poster on here with a reasonably long posting history ready to back you up?

Or do "most people" find your position untenable, nozzferrahhtoo? And does that allow us to conclude that, for most of us at least, one of your starting premises was also untenable.

Anyone on the pro choice side? Just a one or two line post saying you wouldn't lose sleep over the taking of that life in the incubator?
If we hear nothing let's assume you disagree with nozzferrahhtoo and you wouldn't support taking the life of that child.

Let's check back on this in 24 hours.

kylith

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi.& thanks for all the replies within 30 minutes just to put things straight. Ivf for 6 years was our only option BUT this
Did not work either.

so you created and smdestroyed many embryos. Why didn’t you adopt?

Main point I was making is the very large divide between people who still value life

I value life. When a living person is telling me that they can’t afford to raise i child, I value what they’re saying. When a living person says they’re having a miscarriage and the hospital can’t do anything to speed things along, I value them. When a living person tells me that they’ll have to get the body of the baby they wanted shipped back from the UK by courier because it has FFA and the Irish hospital tells them it’s that or carry to term and watch it die, I value them. Why don’t you?

. And the new generation that simply want an abort app on their phones & drone delivery of required advice & medication to terminate another life..

Do you actually not have the faintest idea what’s involved in an abortion? It’s not a day at the beach, you know. Agonising pain, massive bleeding, clots the size of a fist; all over a period of days. This nonsense about ‘lunchtime abortions is just that: nonsense.

ELM327

bertieinexile wrote: »

I'm glad we have got to discussing how widely held your view of personhood is nozzferrahhtoo.

First though
But your definition of the minimal requirements for sentience - and therefore for the first emergence of rights and first call on our ethical concern - is biological. The existence of regular waves in fetal brain activity.

And
But right now we have a yes no referendum on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. If you want to campaign in this referendum these are the only two options you can campaign on.


Like I say I'm glad we've got to the point of discussing how widely held your views may be.



So what do "most people" think?
Well let's put it to a test.

I showed you video of a 23 week old premature baby in an incubator.
https://youtu.be/2RQ8ks-UH0E?t=22s
I told you he is now a healthy 3 year old. You can even look up the parents account on youtube and see video of him playing.

Your definition of the minimum requirement for sentience, and the first hint of a right to life, is regular fetal brain activity. The child in the incubator in those pictures wouldn't have that.

You say
Call me Al, crustybla, DubInMeath, Fizzlesque, frag420, January, PopePalpatine, Simi, swampgas and Yeah_Right all thanked you for that.

Like I said let's put the question of how popular your view is to the test.

Are any of Call me Al, crustybla, DubInMeath, Fizzlesque, frag420, January, PopePalpatine, Simi, swampgas or Yeah_Right ready to back you up in the idea you shouldn't lose sleep over someone taking the life of that child hooked up to tubes in that incubator.

Is there any pro choice poster on here with a reasonably long posting history ready to back you up?

Or do "most people" find your position untenable, nozzferrahhtoo? And does that allow us to conclude that, for most of us at least, one of your starting premises was also untenable.

Anyone on the pro choice side? Just a one or two line post saying you wouldn't lose sleep over the taking of that life in the incubator?
If we hear nothing let's assume you disagree with nozzferrahhtoo and you wouldn't support taking the life of that child.

Let's check back on this in 24 hours.

I change your argument to:

I showed you video of a 23 hour old semen in a fridge.
I told you he is now a healthy 3 year old. You can even look up the parents account on youtube and see video of him playing.

Now do you see how ridiculous you are being?

Anyone on the pro choice side? Just a one or two line post saying you wouldn't lose sleep over the taking of that life in the incubator?
If we hear nothing let's assume you disagree with nozzferrahhtoo and you wouldn't support taking the life of that child.

Let's check back on this in 24 hours.

I agree with the post, I would not lose sleep over it.

bertieinexile

_Dara_ wrote: »

Ooh, zing. Dorothy Parker, look out, there’s a new wit for the ages.

Couldn't pass up a mention of Dorothy Parker without quoting this

But, anyone with eyes must be awed by the gorgeousness of Mecca, and staggered by its vastness. It is advertised as “The Largest Production Ever Known in the World’s History,” which is a conservative statement. It is comfortable to reflect that it gives congenial and remunerative employment to hundreds, including two exceedingly shabby camels, who, I am willing to wager, although my memory for faces is not infallible, made their debut in the world premiere of Ben Hur.

Zubeneschamali

bertieinexile wrote: »

But right now we have a yes no referendum on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.

What country is that in?

Here in Ireland, the referendum is just to delete the 8th, there is no mandatory legislative change at all associated with either Yes or No, that will be up to the government of the day afterwards.

The current government has given an outline of what they intend to pass, but they are a minority government and could collapse at any time. We could end up with Repeal passing, the 8th deleted but then the Government falls trying to pass the 12 week legislation they intend. Then we would have no 8th but the existing POLDPA legislation would remain in effect.

Eponymous

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

What country is that in?

Here in Ireland, the referendum is just to delete the 8th, there is no mandatory legislative change at all associated with either Yes or No, that will be up to the government of the day afterwards.

The current government has given an outline of what they intend to pass, but they are a minority government and could collapse at any time. We could end up with Repeal passing, the 8th deleted but then the Government falls trying to pass the 12 week legislation they intend. Then we would have no 8th but the existing POLDPA legislation would remain in effect.

He's been posting this as fact for a while and he needs to be called out on it every time. It's dangerous to let this little snippet pass unchallenged.

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Sofiztikated

bertieinexile wrote: »

But right now we have a yes no referendum on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. If you want to campaign in this referendum these are the only two options you can campaign on.

the fact that you don't know what the vote is actually on, kinda rules out any of your arguments, if there was any coherence to them at all.

You are wrong, you are willfully wrong, and it has been pointed out consistently.

thee glitz

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We could end up with Repeal passing, the 8th deleted but then the Government falls trying to pass the 12 week legislation they intend.

It's certainly possible, but there's approximately no chance of that happening.

nozzferrahhtoo

bertieinexile wrote: »

I'm glad we have got to discussing how widely held your view of personhood is nozzferrahhtoo.

"We" haven't. Only you have been obsessing over how wide or not you imagine the views of others are. And you have been doing so in a way that appears designed to flesh out the length of your responses to me without you actually articulating a response to me. However that you would be "glad" to move to that subject is hardly a surprise. You have been avoiding dealing with the actual CONTENT of my positions since pretty much day 1.

bertieinexile wrote: »

First though But your definition of the minimal requirements for sentience - and therefore for the first emergence of rights and first call on our ethical concern - is biological. The existence of regular waves in fetal brain activity.

The biological underpinnings of sentience however are merely incidental. There is nothing magical about meat that we know of. If your consciousness could be instantiated on a machine, or if in fact we manage to construct a General Artificial Intelligence, my moral and ethical concerns for it would be EQUAL to any meat based life form. This appears to be the core fact you are missing.

bertieinexile wrote: »

But right now we have a yes no referendum on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks.

No. We do not. We have a vote on a modification to our referendum. Any legislation on abortion will come AFTER that modification. You appear to be willfully contriving to feign ignorance about the content of the actual vote. While the vote might have the implications you speak of in the long run, it is absolutely NOT what we are being asked to vote on. If you wish (if, I am not convinced) to hold any credibility on this thread then I can but urge you to remove this ignorance of the content of the actual vote.

bertieinexile wrote: »

So what do "most people" think? Well let's put it to a test.

If you want to, do. But do it on your own time not mine. As I A) Do not care what most people think, I am telling you what I think and I see your deflections into what you IMAGINE most people think as being a fetid and egregious dodge tactic you are using with regular consistency to avoid dealing with anything I actually say.

So rather than moan about what I said, and who thanked me for saying it, why not try and actually ADDRESS what it was I said instead? Is it a lack of willingness, capability OR both that is leading you to not do this?

bertieinexile wrote: »

Is there any pro choice poster on here with a reasonably long posting history ready to back you up? Or do "most people" find your position untenable, nozzferrahhtoo?

Or, more likely, is it that people prefer to defend THEIR OWN positions, and people are well aware I require absolutely no "back up" least of all against you?

I think people here are more than aware of my capabilities of both espousing and defending my own positions. They know I neither require, nor seek, their approval. All the validation I need for my position is the lack of any coherent rebuttals to it. Least of all from you. That is, for example, how science works. In science we do not prove anything is true. Rather we hold AS IF true anything substantiated that we have failed to falsify.

My rhetoric is the same. I have established my case, established the arguments, evidence, data and reasoning that led to it. And your response is to not rebut or address ANY of that, but to play some argumentum as populum game of your own to dodge around it. Other than imagining legions of nay sayers who happen to agree with you, you have not rebutted or falsified a single point I have made to date.

But if nothing else it is really comedy gold that in the absence of any way to rebut my position, your sole method of attacking it is to almost indict me for being CONSISTENT in it. That is seriously the funniest response I have had over the entire length of this threads 14ish thousand posts. So for that, if nothing else, I thank you.

ProfessorPlum

bertieinexile wrote: »

But right now we have a yes no referendum on abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. If you want to campaign in this referendum these are the only two options you can campaign on.

Again, no, that is not the subject of the referendum. Which you well know.

So what do "most people" think?
Well let's put it to a test.

I showed you video of a 23 week old premature baby in an incubator.
https://youtu.be/2RQ8ks-UH0E?t=22s
I told you he is now a healthy 3 year old. You can even look up the parents account on youtube and see video of him playing.

Your definition of the minimum requirement for sentience, and the first hint of a right to life, is regular fetal brain activity. The child in the incubator in those pictures wouldn't have that.

You say

nozz wrote:

You are asking me about an entity at 22 weeks. It is outside the purview of my position therefore. However if a mother in the UK decided, after it's removal from her womb not to put it on life support and to let it die..... like we do with adult patients when we turn their life support off for example...... then I would not be losing any sleep over it.

Call me Al, crustybla, DubInMeath, Fizzlesque, frag420, January, PopePalpatine, Simi, swampgas and Yeah_Right all thanked you for that.

Like I said let's put the question of how popular your view is to the test.

Are any of Call me Al, crustybla, DubInMeath, Fizzlesque, frag420, January, PopePalpatine, Simi, swampgas or Yeah_Right ready to back you up in the idea you shouldn't lose sleep over someone taking the life of that child hooked up to tubes in that incubator.

Is there any pro choice poster on here with a reasonably long posting history ready to back you up?

Or do "most people" find your position untenable, nozzferrahhtoo? And does that allow us to conclude that, for most of us at least, one of your starting premises was also untenable.

Anyone on the pro choice side? Just a one or two line post saying you wouldn't lose sleep over the taking of that life in the incubator?
If we hear nothing let's assume you disagree with nozzferrahhtoo and you wouldn't support taking the life of that child.

Let's check back on this in 24 hours.

Ok - to be clear - you are asking if people would be comfortable with the idea of withdrawing life support for a baby born at 22weeks?

If that’s the question, well then of course the answer is yes. That is a very reasonable course of action, and I would support any parent if that was their choice.

In fact it is policy in several countries not to resuscitate extremely premature infants. In countries where it is not a direct policy, in most circumstances, it is an option given to parents of extremely premature infants not to provide supportive measures, just ‘comfort care’. I fully agree with this scenario.

Zubeneschamali

thee glitz wrote: »

It's certainly possible, but there's approximately no chance of that happening.

Why? There are loads of FF and FG folks who are opposed to abortion, and more who are opposed to 12 weeks. SF are opposed to 12 weeks last I heard. The Independents include the likes of Mattie McGrath and the Healey-Raes.

January

I'd also have absolutely no problem with it either for the same reasons stated above by Professor Plum.

Triceratops Ballet

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi.& thanks for all the replies within 30 minutes just to put things straight. Ivf for 6 years was our only option BUT this
Did not work either. Main point I was making is the very large divide between people who still value life . And the new generation that simply want an abort app on their phones & drone delivery of required advice & medication to terminate another life.. not here to offend anyone else this is simply my opinion but I honestly don't think that many people in favour of abortion on demand actually realises just how others people value life having been through many options. Its being used as a quick fix but this will have lasting negative effects for many at a later stage in their personal lives & we all know their decisions & actions cannot be reversed /repaired .

Thanks to all the above is simply my own personal opinion &experience. Feel free to pm me but I've now got my point out there & others need to air their valued opinions so I will not continue to post .

how condescending!
yes there are young voters supporting a repeal but to assume that because they are young they don't understand the complexity of the question they're being asked is just patronising, they're also not the only ones on the side of repeal, people of all ages with all manner of experiences with pregnancy, abortion, adoption, miscarriage and IVF support a repeal, and just because not everyone has your lived experience that doesn't mean they don't understand how sad it is for those who can't conceive. However if I became pregnant and were forced to stay pregnant against my will, that doesn't actually help a couple trying to have a child through IVF.

SusieBlue

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi.& thanks for all the replies within 30 minutes just to put things straight. Ivf for 6 years was our only option BUT this
Did not work either. Main point I was making is the very large divide between people who still value life . And the new generation that simply want an abort app on their phones & drone delivery of required advice & medication to terminate another life.. not here to offend anyone else this is simply my opinion but I honestly don't think that many people in favour of abortion on demand actually realises just how others people value life having been through many options. Its being used as a quick fix but this will have lasting negative effects for many at a later stage in their personal lives & we all know their decisions & actions cannot be reversed /repaired .

Thanks to all the above is simply my own personal opinion &experience. Feel free to pm me but I've now got my point out there & others need to air their valued opinions so I will not continue to post .

There is so much wrong with this whole post, but as you've already been called out for the other parts, I'll focus on this.

If you can't respect how other people value life, why should anyone respect how you do?
I value life by trusting the feelings and opinions of the living, breathing woman who is pregnant.
You may wish to value life by holding the importance of the fetus over the health of the mother. That's absolutely fine and that's your prerogative.

A Yes vote will allow you to continue to hold that opinion. It will have no effect on how you live your life.
A No vote forces me to live my life arrested by your personal morals and opinions. That's so wrong.

Women don't need to be saved from themselves by you. They are more than capable of knowing their own minds and making their own decisions.
Trust them.
Statistically 97% of of women do not regret their abortions. I can pull up a link to prove this to you, if you want.

JDD

Bertieinexile, do you log on, post, and then immediately log off?

Because I directed a question at you yesterday, and have been checking to see whether you were online ever since. You've been online three times today, but only for enough time to post, before you log off again.

I, again, would like you to respond to my post.

Bertieinexile, pleas advise, you’re both online, you might answer my question.

During my last pregnancy it was suspected I had placenta accretia (google it). Very luckily, in the end, I did not. However, I was informed that should I get pregnant again, I would have a 70% chance of it occurring.

Statistics on placenta accretia are hard to come by as it is historically a rare complication latterly on the rise. From my own research and from the discussions with my consultant I was told the condition has a 7% mortality rate, a 30% chance of permanent injury to my non-uterus internal organs and an 80% chance I would lose my uterus.

As a result I had a tubal ligation. But no contraceptive is a fail safe. What do YOU advise as my current course of action:

A. Refrain from having sex with my husband until go through the menopause;

B. Have sex with my husband but, should my contraception fail, accept that I would have a 1 in 20 chance of dying, and a 1 in 5 chance of suffering a serious life debititating injury should I bring the pregnancy to full term.

Bear in mind that I have three young children who would be left without a mother if the 1 in 20 chance came to pass.

Your beliefs mean my choice has to be A or B.

SusieBlue

I would also be very interested in seeing a reply to the above post.

bertieinexile

JDD wrote: »

Bertieinexile, do you log on, post, and then immediately log off?

Because I directed a question at you yesterday, and have been checking to see whether you were online ever since. You've been online three times today, but only for enough time to post, before you log off again.

I, again, would like you to respond to my post.

I am looking forward to answering that JDD.
I want to do it justice.
I just don't seem to have as much time as a lot of people here for posting.

Soon as I can.

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Fred Swanson

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captbarnacles

To state the blatantly obvious it's a sad attempt to keep his nonsense near the last page of the thread.

Keep donating and post your donations! as an added bonus his lies will be buried behind the donations

Annasopra

applehunter wrote: »

In contrast, hearing from a good source that the tiddlywinks game in the GAA club has a repeal majority.

#parlourgames4repeal

Im going to a polo match next week. Must ask around.

Ave Sodalis

http://crowdfund.togetherforyes.ie/?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf250

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