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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #4172
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    jugger0 wrote:
    Listen if you want to kill babies thats fine, I really dont mind its your choice. I just think its a double standard that there is no death penalty.


    A Repeal is not about killing anyone, read up on it!
    In fact a repeal will stop some woman needlessly dying


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    #4173
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Listen if you want to kill babies thats fine, I really dont mind its your choice. I just think its a double standard that there is no death penalty.

    You're welcome to start a campaign to repeal the 21st Amendment if you want. In the meantime, do you have anything else to say about the referendum we will be having next month?


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    #4174
    1hnr79jr65
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭1hnr79jr65


    jugger0 wrote: »
    It is the fathers business as you are killing his child too.

    The potential father may have a vested interest, but that does not give a right to have a determination in the action the woman takes.

    Her Body, Her Choice.

    That is what most folks are missing the point on,

    - The referendum is not about mass abortions.
    - It is not about how different beliefs are affected.

    This referendum is about the RIGHT to a CHOICE !

    A choice that has been denied by law and is controlling and can be damaging, resulting in mental or physical health implications up to death of the woman.

    You dont have to agree that abortion is right, you dont have to agree that abortion should be in line with your personal beliefs.

    What everyone should be in agreement for, is the FREEDOM of CHOICE for a woman to make that determination for themselves of what is the right course of action, or in some cases a determination to be made in their favor if the woman on health grounds, who is incapacitated and not be able to make that decision.

    I am a guy and I stand for the right of women to have a CHOICE.

    Whats next, a license for have sex or get pregnant? Or limits on how many children you are allowed to concieve?


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    #4175
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    jugger0 wrote: »
    It is the fathers business as you are killing his child too.

    If there’s a disagreement where the father wants the pregnancy to proceed and the woman doesn’t, there inherently can’t be equality in this situation. Someone will, for want of a better phrase, get their way. I can’t see past it being the person whose health can be directly impacted by the pregnancy.


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    #4176
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    chalkitdown1 wrote: »
    My new favourite kind of poster is the one who acts just like a pro-lifer and spouts the same garbage but claims to be completely undecided on the matter or even pro-choice. Seem to be a lot of them in here lately and it's endlessly entertaining as they seem to think they're fooling anyone.

    I know, it’s so obvious, isn’t it? :D

    Eventually the mask slips. A telling phrase usually escapes from their brain onto their keypad, so addled are they from trying to keep up the facade.


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    #4177
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    jugger0 wrote: »
    I dont mind abortion, Im not against it at all, I just dont like that the abortion crew are against the death penalty. Heinous crimes should be punished with death. It makes no sense to me that people are for baby termination but not scumbag multiple offenders? Have you ever watched an abortion? It is killing, I can link you a video if you'd like?

    I've had an abortion, so you're ok thanks, I know what it entails.

    That video is fake and has been proven to be so, or is it that cartoon one Tim, Nice But Dim, Jackson had his 'hunger strike' for?


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    #4178
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    jugger0 wrote: »
    I dont understand the push for abortion but yet people are very against the death penalty? Its ok to scramble babies in the womb but not ok to hang murderers and child molesters? I think if we have one we should have the other.

    To be honest I am "agnostic" about the death penalty. I am neither for or against it in principle and it is a debate I have long intended to inform myself on and wade into to decide where I lie on it. I genuinely do not know my position on that one.

    But I do not accept the "if you accept one you accept the other" move you are making here. I see massive differences between the two.

    The main one is the fetus is an entity that ENTIRELY lacks the faculty of consciousness and sentience. It does not have it. It never has had it. It is a distinct period of time away from getting it.

    Not so the recipient of the death penalty.

    So the distinction for me is the criminal is still an entity warranting moral and ethical concern, and the debate about the death penalty is whether other concerns related to their crime overrides this.

    The Fetus is not an entity for which we can coherently hold moral and ethical concerns. While the pregnant woman is.

    The two situations for me therefore are not comparable.
    jugger0 wrote: »
    Yeah and the majority of the reasons are because they just dont want a baby.. not because they were raped or because of a dangerous medical condition

    That is something of an over simplification from you there. There is a lot more going on for a lot more people than simply "Do not want a baby".

    The social and economic concerns are VASTLY more diverse than you are representing there.

    For example on this thread some women have spoken about how they have already had an abortion and they did so because they already had children and another child would undermine the well being of, and their care and parenting of, the existing children.

    That is not a simple "I do not want a baby" that is "I want babies but there is a limit to how many I can care for and I am at that limit and so having more is not a viable option for me".

    As someone who claims to have no issue with abortion (I remain dubious) what do you hope to gain by misrepresentation of this level?
    jugger0 wrote: »
    Have you ever watched an abortion? It is killing, I can link you a video if you'd like?

    What you can link to a video of is likely to be an exception. Over 92% of abortions happen in or before week 12. That is what the Citizens assembly have recommended. In fact around 80% by week 10. So yes I HAVE watched abortions before. You know what it looked like???? A woman popping a pill.

    I trust linking to videos of women downing a pill will not feed into the agenda you claim NOT to have (that of being against abortion). Ask yourself however what the agenda is behind linking to videos that BY FAR are the exception rather than the common practice when it comes to the reality of abortion? It would be like me saying "I love anesthsia" and then linking to an interview of one of those VERY few people who were consciously aware during their surgery.
    jugger0 wrote: »
    Listen if you want to kill babies thats fine, I really dont mind its your choice. I just think its a double standard that there is no death penalty.

    Yet there is no double standard at all as I explained at the start of this post. The two are massively and entirely different things for the reasons I described. There are few differences between the two at the moral and ethical level. The only similarity there is in fact is at the level of biology, where a "life" is ended. But at that level of rhetoric you might as well say that lawn bowling is the same things as MMA Cage matches. Sure arent all the people doing both BREATHING? Sure that makes them exactly the same thing.


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    #4179
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    You are not going to like campaigning if you have to explain the same thing over and over. I never claimed to be an expert, not have I spread any mistruths. The majority of my posting in this thread has been in relation to questionable campaign activity by both sides and how this makes them both rotten.

    I'm not a new poster here btw, I've been around here for years

    You are spreading mistruths. The issue of disability (not handicapped) is irrelevant here.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #4180
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    January wrote: »
    I've had an abortion, so you're ok thanks, I know what it entails.

    That video is fake and has been proven to be so, or is it that cartoon one Tim, Nice But Dim, Jackson had his 'hunger strike' for?

    The video I seen is not fake, it is not just one video, it was very disturbing.


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    #4181
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #4182
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    jugger0 wrote: »
    The video I seen is not fake, it is not just one video, it was very disturbing.

    As disturbing as the various reports into how Savita Hallapanavar was killed by 8th amendment?


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    #4183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jugger0 wrote: »
    I dont mind abortion, Im not against it at all, I just dont like that the abortion crew are against the death penalty. Heinous crimes should be punished with death.

    A ridiculous argument & one that you can't prove. How do you know that most pro choice people are anti death penalty? Or did you just make that up?
    I for one am against the death penalty, you know why? Because I don't believe it is a penalty, I believe life in prison should mean that, & I don't see why a convict should be let off early.
    Does that fit your ideas?


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    #4184
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    jugger0 wrote: »
    The video I seen is not fake, it is not just one video, it was very disturbing.

    How do you know it was not fake? Most of the videos being peddled around are either fake, or as nozz up thread has said, an exception rather than normality.

    Disturbing as it might be, if the pregnancy has reached a point where a foetus has to be extracted using instruments then it is not being done for no reason or because the person who is pregnant 'just doesn't want a baby'.

    Women who have late gestation abortions are doing so because either the foetus has health issues or they themselves have health issues.


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    #4185
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    jugger0 wrote: »
    The video I seen is not fake, it is not just one video, it was very disturbing.

    I once had an abscess in a delicate area surgically burst. It wasn’t pretty at all. Many medical tend not to be. What’s your point?


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    #4186
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,238 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    I once had an abscess in a delicate area surgically burst. It wasn’t pretty at all. Many medical tend not to be. What’s your point?

    I had a colonoscopy. Definitely not something anyone wants to watch :)


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    #4187
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    bubblypop wrote: »
    A ridiculous argument & one that you can't prove. How do you know that most pro choice people are anti death penalty? Or did you just make that up?
    I for one am against the death penalty, you know why? Because I don't believe it is a penalty, I believe life in prison should mean that, & I don't see why a convict should be let off early.
    Does that fit your ideas?

    You think prison is a penalty? lol.. and who gets life in Ireland? very very rarely is somebody locked up for over 20 years. Also the cost of a rope versus 20+ years in prison... the cost to the taxpayer is shocking.


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    #4188
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    I once had an abscess in a delicate area surgically burst. It wasn’t pretty at all. Many medical tend not to be. What’s your point?

    Seeing something which resembles a baby being torn apart is a bit worse im afraid.


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    #4189
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,017 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    jugger0 wrote: »
    You think prison is a penalty? lol.. and who gets life in Ireland? very very rarely is somebody locked up for over 20 years. Also the cost of a rope versus 20+ years in prison... the cost to the taxpayer is shocking.
    Yet another distraction.
    Ran out of relevant points have ye?
    Is that david quinn at my door?


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    #4190
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Grayson wrote: »
    I had a colonoscopy. Definitely not something anyone wants to watch :)

    I dunno, I found my colonoscopy pretty sexy. Especially seeing the photos of my infected colon interior. Oh baybee. #weirdsexkinks


    :pac:


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    #4191
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,597 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    jugger0 wrote: »
    I dont understand the push for abortion but yet people are very against the death penalty? Its ok to scramble babies in the womb but not ok to hang murderers and child molesters? I think if we have one we should have the other.

    I would be fine with that.


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    #4192
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    To be honest I am "agnostic" about the death penalty. I am neither for or against it in principle and it is a debate I have long intended to inform myself on and wade into to decide where I lie on it. I genuinely do not know my position on that one.

    But I do not accept the "if you accept one you accept the other" move you are making here. I see massive differences between the two.

    The main one is the fetus is an entity that ENTIRELY lacks the faculty of consciousness and sentience. It does not have it. It never has had it. It is a distinct period of time away from getting it.

    Not so the recipient of the death penalty.

    So the distinction for me is the criminal is still an entity warranting moral and ethical concern, and the debate about the death penalty is whether other concerns related to their crime overrides this.

    The Fetus is not an entity for which we can coherently hold moral and ethical concerns. While the pregnant woman is.

    The two situations for me therefore are not comparable.



    That is something of an over simplification from you there. There is a lot more going on for a lot more people than simply "Do not want a baby".

    The social and economic concerns are VASTLY more diverse than you are representing there.

    For example on this thread some women have spoken about how they have already had an abortion and they did so because they already had children and another child would undermine the well being of, and their care and parenting of, the existing children.

    That is not a simple "I do not want a baby" that is "I want babies but there is a limit to how many I can care for and I am at that limit and so having more is not a viable option for me".

    As someone who claims to have no issue with abortion (I remain dubious) what do you hope to gain by misrepresentation of this level?



    What you can link to a video of is likely to be an exception. Over 92% of abortions happen in or before week 12. That is what the Citizens assembly have recommended. In fact around 80% by week 10. So yes I HAVE watched abortions before. You know what it looked like???? A woman popping a pill.

    I trust linking to videos of women downing a pill will not feed into the agenda you claim NOT to have (that of being against abortion). Ask yourself however what the agenda is behind linking to videos that BY FAR are the exception rather than the common practice when it comes to the reality of abortion? It would be like me saying "I love anesthsia" and then linking to an interview of one of those VERY few people who were consciously aware during their surgery.



    Yet there is no double standard at all as I explained at the start of this post. The two are massively and entirely different things for the reasons I described. There are few differences between the two at the moral and ethical level. The only similarity there is in fact is at the level of biology, where a "life" is ended. But at that level of rhetoric you might as well say that lawn bowling is the same things as MMA Cage matches. Sure arent all the people doing both BREATHING? Sure that makes them exactly the same thing.

    I enjoyed this reply thank you. Very good points.


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    #4193
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Seeing something which resembles a baby being torn apart is a bit worse im afraid.

    I don’t think you get to decide what’s “worse”, thanks.


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    #4194
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    jugger0 wrote: »
    You think prison is a penalty? lol.. and who gets life in Ireland? very very rarely is somebody locked up for over 20 years. Also the cost of a rope versus 20+ years in prison... the cost to the taxpayer is shocking.

    Why are you deflecting from the topic at hand?
    The point of imprisonment is loss of freedom and independence.
    I recognise that Irish jails are more comfortable than many others, but the point remains.
    They lose their freedom and they have no control over their lives, from what time they get up at to what they have for dinner.
    I would also like for prison sentences to be longer should the crime committed warrant it, life should mean life.
    However that is absolutely not what we're talking about at all here so I'm having difficulty understanding why you are continuously bringing it up?

    As for your comments on the tax payer cost on the prison system.....Well two abortion pills are going to cost significantly less than the maternity care of a woman including scans, the birth, 18 years of children's allowance and the cost to the state for educating that child.
    So your point is moot.


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    #4195
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    I don’t think you get to decide what’s “worse”, thanks.

    Ok hun, I am going to send you the video.


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    #4196
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Seeing something which resembles a baby being torn apart is a bit worse im afraid.

    Man, that bit in The Thing where the guys head is knocked off, and then it grows legs and eye-stalks and runs off was pretty gross.


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    #4197
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Ok hun, I am going to send you the video.

    I have private messages disabled so good luck with that. :)


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    #4198
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Ok hun, I am going to send you the video.

    How dare you be so condescending, "hun"??? Really?? And that poster did not ask you to send the video. Pretty sure to do so is against the charter.


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    #4199
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    jugger0 wrote: »
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    But what about the father of the multiple offender? Killing his child is ignoring his rights!

    Listen if you want to kill babies thats fine, I really dont mind its your choice. I just think its a double standard that there is no death penalty.

    Okay, but the thread is about the upcoming referendum. If you want to discuss the death penalty, thats another thread.


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    #4200
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    jugger0 wrote: »
    I dont understand the push for abortion but yet people are very against the death penalty? Its ok to scramble babies in the womb but not ok to hang murderers and child molesters? I think if we have one we should have the other.

    your ignorance of what is proposed is unfortunately shared by many.


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    #4201
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    I have private messages disabled so good luck with that. :)

    Why are you so afraid? I mean you are voting for this?


This discussion has been closed.
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