The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Ush1

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Then I don't get your response to the previous poster. If you wanted to have a vasectomy and the law was to change to make them illegal, how would you discuss it without focusing on one gender?

Well that poster proposed that it was already illegal in the constitution, and I replied I would feel the same as about this issue. Everyones input would be welcome.

volchitsa

You 

Ush1 wrote: »

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Then I don't get your response to the previous poster.  If you wanted to have a vasectomy and the law was to change to make them illegal, how would you discuss it without focusing on one gender?

Well that poster proposed that it was already illegal in the constitution, and I replied I would feel the same as about this issue. Everyones input would be welcome.

You would expect your neighbours qnd people you've never met to decide under what circumstances you were to be allowed a vasectomy? (I'm sorry Mr Ush, your health is not yet poor enough for you not to be able to provide for more children, we don't think you should have one yet."

Ush1

volchitsa wrote: »

You 

You would expect your neighbours qnd people you've never met to decide under what circumstances you were to be allowed a vasectomy? (I'm sorry Mr Ush, your health is not yet poor enough for you not to be able to provide for more children, we don't think you should have one yet."

Yes, if it required changes to the constitution of course they should be involved in the conversation.

amdublin

Reading something on fb plus thinking about the video I watched yesterday about how the 8th was brought in got me thinking.

Before contraception was brought in we were told it was bad (by the church). Is it though??
And since contraception was legalised gas the sky fallen down? Has society fallen apart?
No it has not.

My convent education advocated that sex was only for "within the framework of marriage". I'll never forget that wording! And that sex outside out of marriage was bad. That left me with a 20 year history of dealing with guilt after sex and not enjoyable sex during. I have finally come to the realisation that sex is a good thing. We as human beings need human touch and need human feel good sensations. Sex is good for your physical and mental well being.
Since sex outside of marriage has become the norm has the sky fallen down? Has society fallen apart?
No.

Divorce.
Hello divorce goodbye daddy said the church. Putting the fear of god (literally) in me as a child.
Since divorce is in has the sky fallen down? Is everyone getting divorced?
No.
Actually ireland has a low divorce rate.

Same sex marriage
Threatens marriage. Threatens family. A child needs a mother and father. Said the naysayers years later has the sky fallen down?
No.

Abortion in Ireland rather than England
Abortion safely under medical care rather than in bedrooms in secret.
Will society change?
No.

We cannot live under fear any more or believe, what frankly are, lies. We are good humans. We deserve human rights.

Repeal the 8th

kylith

Ush1 wrote: »

While I can see both sides have extreme elements I think it's disingenuous to say this is a womens issue and it's their body. It's clearly more complicated than that when there is another life/potential life growing inside them.

Ok, while I see your point here, this potential other life is inside, surrounded by, and utterly supported by, the woman’s body. This potential life is not alive. It does not have a functioning brain. It cannot react to stimulus and feel pain. Meanwhile it makes the woman feel very sh!tty constantly. Why should she not get to say if she wants it in her body or not?

Also, issues such as abortion effect society at large..,

How does it effect society at large? If a significant number of the women in the country have had an abortion at some stage how have you been affected? Cos the only way I can think of is paying lower taxes for less child benefit.

vicwatson

Are no campaigners tearing down yes posters in your area?

Yeah_Right

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I don't think it's true to say that there are no irreligious No voters.

There are plenty of people who object on moral grounds, completely separated from any religion.

I agree. I know some including my brother in law. He is a complete atheist. I think I have managed to convince him that he has to vote for repeal as abortion should not be a constitutional issue. He thinks very logically so I've used logic and facts (a lot of which I've learnt from this thread so thanks everyone) to explain to him how much damage the 8th is doing. He is still against abortion as a choice (on demand ) but now agrees it is necessary in some circumstances so therefore it has to be repealed.

Hooks Golf Handicap

I have a question that I'll throw out in here rather than start a new thread.

How do the government plan to administer the abortion pills & how much will it cost ?

I'm aware that GP's are to be given an opt in/out, there's also talk of a 48/72 hour deferral but what happens then.
Will the GP have the 2 pills & require the woman to attend the surgery to administer both ?.
Will the woman get the pills from the GP & take them at home along with her FAQ pamphlet ?.
Will the woman get a script for the tablets which she'll have to bring to a pharmacy ?.
Will Medical Card/Doctor Card holders get everything for free ?
Will everyone else have to pay ?

So many questions, so little time.

DabllDoYa

Someone in my local town put up a big board of pictures of dead fetuses' outside a primary school.
I mean come on lads you're not doing much to help your side.

amdublin

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I have a question that I'll throw out in here rather than start a new thread.

How do the government plan to administer the abortion pills & how much will it cost ?

I'm aware that GP's are to be given an opt in/out, there's also talk of a 48/72 hour deferral but what happens then.
Will the GP have the 2 pills & require the woman to attend the surgery to administer both ?.
Will the woman get the pills from the GP & take them at home along with her FAQ pamphlet ?.
Will the woman get a script for the tablets which she'll have to bring to a pharmacy ?.
Will Medical Card/Doctor Card holders get everything for free ?
Will everyone else have to pay ?

So many questions, so little time.

I believe the answers are out there. Someone more wise than myself may be here on this forum to answer.

However. Does it matter? Do we need these answered to know how one will vote in the referendum...
(Not sure if you're asking the questions in the context of it changes anything for your voting decision)

horseburger

DubInMeath wrote: »

So are videos of executions, and if you posted one of them you'd be banned too.

I've seen a lot of violence in my life, I've been stabbed twice, burnt, punched, kicked, spat on and had a gun put to my head more than once. I've also given as good as I got and have physically hurt the people who did and tried to do these things to me. Thankfully this part of my life is over as I don't work at the same thing anymore.

I've seen people crushed to death and person decapitated in a car smash due to a drunk driver.

No one who has actually experienced or been involved in violent incidents tend to not want to propagate voilence unless they have a mental health problem, or just being maco online. That's why I tend to ignore people who want the death penalty because if they were involved in one they would probably sh1t themselves.

The difference is that abortion is a medical procedure carried out for a number of reasons, all personal in the end, of a foetus, not a living person, while the death penalty is the state ending the life of a living person for a crime of which they can be guilty or not guilty of.

But a foetus is a living human being. If not aborted it will grow and develop as part of its human life cycle, prior to birth and after birth.

No matter what stage his or her life is ended, there is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of human life.

Mary Butler, Fianna Fáil TD, spoke recently in Dáil Éireann, and made an interesting point, expressing concern about the way the word foetus is regularly used as a replacement of other words, that give recognition to the humanity of the life that is ended when aborted is carried out.

The Collins dictionary states that:

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

ohnonotgmail

horseburger wrote: »

But it is a living human being. If not aborted it will grow and develop as part of its human life cycle, prior to birth and after birth.

No matter what stage his or her life is ended, there is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of human life.

Mary Butler, Fianna Fáil TD, spoke recently in Dáil Éireann, and made an interesting point, expressing concern about the way the word foetus is regularly used as a replacement of other words, that give recognition to the humanity of the life that is ended when aborted is carried out.

the word foetus is used because that is the correct term.

Annasopra

applehunter wrote: »

John McGuirk has played a stormer.

He really hasnt. He has been rude, abrasive, arrogant, dismissive, racist, ageist, trollish.

ELM327

horseburger wrote: »

But a foetus is a living human being. If not aborted it will grow and develop as part of its human life cycle, prior to birth and after birth.

No matter what stage his or her life is ended, there is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of human life.

Mary Butler, Fianna Fáil TD, spoke recently in Dáil Éireann, and made an interesting point, expressing concern about the way the word foetus is regularly used as a replacement of other words, that give recognition to the humanity of the life that is ended when aborted is carried out.

The Collins dictionary states that:

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

Some politicians are dangerously uninformed.
Foetus is the correct word for something which is developing towards but is not yet a human life. Same as embryo is the stage before, child is the stage after, the foetal stage

ELM327

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

He really hasnt. He has been rude, abrasive, arrogant, dismissive, racist, ageist, trollish.

Exactly.
He's played a stormer for the repeal side.

#trustourwomen
#repealthe8th

horseburger

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the word foetus is used because that is the correct term.

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

dudara

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I have a question that I'll throw out in here rather than start a new thread.

How do the government plan to administer the abortion pills & how much will it cost ?

I'm aware that GP's are to be given an opt in/out, there's also talk of a 48/72 hour deferral but what happens then.
Will the GP have the 2 pills & require the woman to attend the surgery to administer both ?.
Will the woman get the pills from the GP & take them at home along with her FAQ pamphlet ?.
Will the woman get a script for the tablets which she'll have to bring to a pharmacy ?.
Will Medical Card/Doctor Card holders get everything for free ?
Will everyone else have to pay ?

So many questions, so little time.

For me, those questions do not impact the vote I am being asked to cast. They are all operational decisions that can be made after the referendum. They are not strategic questions, in the way the referendum question will be.

ELM327

horseburger wrote: »

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

And it is not yet born. The word is correct.
Life legally begins at birth. Except for the 8th amendment.

seamus

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I don't think it's true to say that there are no irreligious No voters.

You're right, that's not true to say.

However, there is no irreligious "No" campaign. That's where the energy is coming from. That's who "cares" enough about keeping the eighth to get out on the streets.

And that's worth keeping in mind in terms of the makeup of the campaign. It's literally the church on one side and everyone else on the other.

ohnonotgmail

horseburger wrote: »

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

no you are quite right. up to the age of 10 weeks they are not even a foetus, they are an embryo.

Trasna1

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly.
He's played a stormer for the repeal side.

#trustourwomen
#repealthe8th

I've already been of the opinion that if you vote a certain way to stick it to a.n. other or a particular group you are just hunting for reasons for your decision

For example, if someone said to me "I'm going to change their vote Yes to get one over on those God botherers" then they were always going to vote Yes. Conversely if someone said they were going to vote change their vote to No to get one over feminazis they were never going to vote the other way. Just looking for justification, and poor justification at that

horseburger

ELM327 wrote: »

Some politicians are dangerously uninformed.
Foetus is the correct word for something which is developing towards but is not yet a human life. Same as embryo is the stage before, child is the stage after, the foetal stage

A human foetus is human, unless you think that a pregnancy that results from the union of a male human sperm and female human egg, can result in anything other than human.

It is the human definition that is central to the question about whether it is correct or not to deliberately end human life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization

NuMarvel

horseburger wrote: »

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

Nope. The referendum isn't about if women can access abortion. They already do, and nobody, including those on the No side, wants to stops them. It's about how women access abortion. A No vote just means abortions keep happening, and they'll tend to be later and at a higher risk to the woman. On the other hand, a Yes vote at least means abortions will be earlier and safer.

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

The central question for the referendum is whether it was right or wrong to try and settle this question in the Constitution back in 1983.

The fact that the amendment compelled the Dail to make abortion legal here for the first time, the exact opposite of its authors intent, is a hint that the answer is "wrong". We should fix that mistake by deleting it.

Then we can move on to what the legislation should say. Feel free to write to your TD on the subject. It seems to me that the prolife crew are dropping the ball here, betting everything on defeating the amendment, and nothing on lobbying for less liberal grounds for abortion after they lose.

Perhaps they plan to just sulk until the euthanasia debate or the transgender toilets debate or whatever the next ireland-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket debate is about.

horseburger

ELM327 wrote: »

And it is not yet born. The word is correct.
Life legally begins at birth. Except for the 8th amendment.

Life obviously begins before birth, unless you think that the human growing in the womb is not living for nine months before birth.

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

A human foetus is human

My appendix is human.

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

Life obviously begins before birth

Life began somewhere around 4 billion years ago, as far as anyone can tell.

TallGlass

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My appendix is human.

Mines removed! :pac:

horseburger

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The central question for the referendum is whether it was right or wrong to try and settle this question in the Constitution back in 1983.

The fact that the amendment compelled the Dail to make abortion legal here for the first time, the exact opposite of its authors intent, is a hint that the answer is "wrong". We should fix that mistake by deleting it.

Then we can move on to what the legislation should say. Feel free to write to your TD on the subject. It seems to me that the prolife crew are dropping the ball here, betting everything on defeating the amendment, and nothing on lobbying for less liberal grounds for abortion after they lose.

Perhaps they plan to just sulk until the euthanasia debate or the transgender toilets debate or whatever the next ireland-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket debate is about.

The central question obviously is the argument on whether it is acceptable to end a human life, where that human, whose life is being ended, has not given consent to end that life.

In cases of euthanasia, the person dying gives consent.

horseburger

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Life began somewhere around 4 billion years ago, as far as anyone can tell.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My appendix is human.

Poor attempt at avoiding the issue.