The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

Once it is limited to 12 weeks, you are imposing abortion only in certain circumstances.

One of the most popular lies among the pro-life campaigners is that Repeal the 8th will introduce unrestricted abortion on demand, it simply isn't true.

Unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Unrestricted suggests that it will not just include certain cases.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

How so?

Doesn't raising children alter the everyday routine and financial circumstances of the people raising them, no mater if its the biological parents or anyone else?

Alters their routine and financial circumstances, yes. They aren't rights though. As it stands, the 8th means a woman is not given the right to be free from suffering. The woman is not given the right to life, despite what the 2013 Act says. The woman is not given the right to medical treatment. They are not given the right to bodily autonomy.

Heck, so long as the 8th is in place, even the foetus and subsequent baby are okay to suffer and die a preventable and painful death because, regardless of whether or not you agree with abortion for FFA, the 8th prevents it.

The funny (not really) thing is is that if the child needs an organ donation or a blood donation to save its life after it's born, you cannot take the organ or blood from the mother without her permission. Even if the baby will die without it.

Are you telling me you'd be quite happy to stand in front of Susan Hodger's family, in front of Savita Halappanavar's family, in front of Anne Lovett's family... and tell them that their family member would have lost rights when the baby was born anyway so don't worry about them.

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

Why conception? Why not implantation?

Why when the pregnancy is confirmed? Why not when the foetus shows the ability for independent movement or independent brain activity or when it is born?

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

Unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Unrestricted suggests that it will not just include certain cases.

Up to twelve weeks means that in certain circumstances - over twelve weeks - abortion will not be permitted.

NuMarvel

horseburger wrote: »

I would have a concern with abortion in certain cases, where the prognosis is not good, in the sense that one can never be sure how long a child will live, upon birth.

My understanding is that if the pregnancy is continued, where a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality/life limiting condition has been confirmed, that it can never be said with certainty, how long the child will live.

So I take it from this you wouldn't agree with abortion in cases of FFA. Grand, we're getting somewhere now.

Following on from that, are there instances where would agree a woman should be able to access abortion? Do you believe a woman should never be able to access abortion?

horseburger

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

A definition that is only valid if you were having a conversation about biology. And even then it would not be wholly valid given that some conceptions now are inclusive of THREE parents.

Thankfully ACTUAL scientists and ACTUAL biologists are not going to you for definitions.

The issue is however it is not a biological definition of Human Life that is required when discussing philosophy, morality, ethics, rights, humanity and personhood. If you claim you would give the same definition THERE..... then you are either lying to us or not at all informed about the subjects in question.

When do you think that human life begins?

This item below includes the following opening paragraph:

"ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.".

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/3.21.17-When-Human-Life-Begins.pdf

https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins

horseburger

NuMarvel wrote: »

So I take it from this you wouldn't agree with abortion in cases of FFA. Grand, we're getting somewhere now.

Following on from that, are there instances where would agree a woman should be able to access abortion? Do you believe a woman should never be able to access abortion?

I did not state that. I said I have a concern that, as I understand it, that it cannot be stated with certainty how long a life will last after birth, if the pregnancy continues.

The concern I have is that if an abortion is carried out, it will never be known how long a life will last.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

When do you think that human life begins?

This item below includes the following opening paragraph:

"ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.".

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/3.21.17-When-Human-Life-Begins.pdf

https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins

I know this has been asked a million times but if this was true, why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Why isn't drinking when pregnant considering negligence. Why is travelling for an abortion allowed?

nozzferrahhtoo

horseburger wrote: »

When do you think that human life begins?

In biological terms I 100% agree with when YOU say it begins.

In terms of philosophy, ethics, morality, rights, personhood and so forth I do not know 100% when it begins but I do not think it begins until the faculty of consciousness and sentience comes on line.

At 12 weeks not only is it not online, it has not even been BUILT yet. This is human it is not a Human. Please do learn the difference for us. And stop feigning ignorance of something I have explained to you four times in as many posts.

reubenreuben

horseburger wrote: »

I did not state that. I said I have a concern that, as I understand it, that it cannot be stated with certainty how long a life will last after birth, if the pregnancy continues.

The concern I have is that if an abortion is carried out, it will never be known how long a life will last.

What if the woman was raped? Should she be allowed to abort?

Yeah_Right

horseburger wrote: »

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

No. At both those stages it is still just potential life.

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I know this has been asked a million times but if this was true, why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Why isn't drinking when pregnant considering negligence. Why is travelling for an abortion allowed?

Is a miscarriage not, an unfortunate natural unavoidable occurrence?

This HSE item, below, states that:

"It is thought that most miscarriages are the result of random variations in the chromosomes of the baby. Chromosomes are genetic 'building blocks' that guide the development of a baby. If a baby has too many or not enough chromosomes, the pregnancy can end in miscarriage".

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/m/miscarriage/

Sofiztikated

horseburger wrote: »

I did not state that. I said I have a concern that, as I understand it, that it cannot be stated with certainty how long a life will last after birth, if the pregnancy continues.

The concern I have is that if an abortion is carried out, it will never be known how long a life will last.

There's no guarantees that a pregnancy will result in a live human being either.

horseburger

Yeah_Right wrote: »

No. At both those stages it is still just potential life.

Just the same as a 20 year old man is a potential 40 year old man, or a 60 year old man?

Isn't it all part of our human life cycle, no matter if it is human development before birth and after birth?

NuMarvel

horseburger wrote: »

I did not state that.

Then maybe you'll be so good as to state what your position is on the issue of when a woman should be able access abortion. Because while you've replied to that question a number of times, you certainly haven't answered it.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

Is a miscarriage not, an unfortunate natural unavoidable occurrence?

This HSE item, below, states that:

"It is thought that most miscarriages are the result of random variations in the chromosomes of the baby. Chromosomes are genetic 'building blocks' that guide the development of a baby. If a baby has too many or not enough chromosomes, the pregnancy can end in miscarriage".

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/m/miscarriage/

Even if the miscarriage was caused by drink etc.? It's not an abortion if it was accidental.

Do you mind answering the rest of those questions? And the post before that?

kylith

horseburger wrote: »

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

Personally I don’t see it as an individual person until it is capable of surviving independently.

NuMarvel

horseburger wrote: »

When do you think that human life begins?

A question more relevant to the thread topic is when do you think the right to life should be begin? Because at present, it's not conception or fertilisation.

horseburger

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

In biological terms I 100% agree with when YOU say it begins.

In terms of philosophy, ethics, morality, rights, personhood and so forth I do not know 100% when it begins but I do not think it begins until the faculty of consciousness and sentience comes on line.

At 12 weeks not only is it not online, it has not even been BUILT yet. This is human it is not a Human. Please do learn the difference for us. And stop feigning ignorance of something I have explained to you four times in as many posts.

Isn't the main issue that no matter at what stage an abortion takes place, it is fundamentally the ending of a human life, where someone else has decided to end another human life?

I often hear the argument that it is more acceptable to carry out an abortion when pain is not felt.

It was asked by participants in the Citizens Assembly.

Why is there a concern about pain being felt, when the abortion procedure results in the ending of life.

Ending life is much more severe than inflicting pain.

yrreg0850

Conspectus wrote: »

Link to old thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106464600#post106464600


The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion



If only 44% of the assembly voted for repeal, why are we being asked to repeal?
I think regardless of the vote, the Govt wanted to repeal and, used Enda's quango as an excuse.

kylith

horseburger wrote: »

Just the same as a 20 year old man is a potential 40 year old man, or a 60 year old man?

Isn't it all part of our human life cycle, no matter if it is human development before birth and after birth?

But a 25 year old man is not a 65 year old man and therefore does not have the right to a state pension. A 2 year old is not a 20 year old and therefore cannot purchase alcohol. A 12 week fetus is not a grown woman, and should not have the same rights as one.

BabysCoffee

I read some of the reasons why donations are being made to Together for Yes to my mother who is not internet savy (and also had forgotten her glasses when I met her for coffee today).

This was the one that I broke down in tears to as I read aloud:

Ave Sodalis

yrreg0850 wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion



If only 44% of the assembly voted for repeal, why are we being asked to repeal?
I think regardless of the vote, the Govt wanted to repeal and, used Enda's quango as an excuse.

It is being replaced.

“Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.”

horseburger

kylith wrote: »

But a 25 year old man is not a 65 year old man and therefore does not have the right to a state pension. A 2 year old is not a 20 year old and therefore cannot purchase alcohol. A 12 week fetus is not a grown woman, and should not have the same rights as one.

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

Can you answer my questions? You seem to have missed them.

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

Is a miscarriage not, an unfortunate natural unavoidable occurrence?

This HSE item, below, states that:

"It is thought that most miscarriages are the result of random variations in the chromosomes of the baby. Chromosomes are genetic 'building blocks' that guide the development of a baby. If a baby has too many or not enough chromosomes, the pregnancy can end in miscarriage".

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/m/miscarriage/

Only applies to most miscarriages, even then isn't it the fault of the woman's body for not properly conceiving the child? If your view of the world is correct, any woman miscarrying should be charged with manslaughter and any woman that travels abroad for an abortion should be charged with murder upon return.

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Can you answer my questions? You seem to have missed them.

What question did you ask?

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

The same people that decide on the age of consent, the age for qualification for a pension, the age of voting etc.

SusieBlue

I'd like you know who you'd save if you were in front of a burning fertility clinic and could only save a zygote in a petri dish, or a toddler.
Who would you pick and why?

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

Only applies to most miscarriages, even then isn't it the fault of the woman's body for not properly conceiving the child? If your view of the world is correct, any woman miscarrying should be charged with manslaughter and any woman that travels abroad for an abortion should be charged with murder upon return.

I did not say anyone should be charged with miscarriage as you well know.

I was responding to someone - who asked why women aren't charged with miscarriage - by including a link to an item that details that miscarriages are a natural unfortunate occurrence.