The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

SusieBlue

horseburger wrote: »

Is it not problematic to suggest that abortions should be carried out due to lack of services available to the parents and children that is born?

Surely in that argument, the case should be made that improved services should be made available, rather than arguing for abortion, for example, on the basis that current health services and child care services are not adequate?

We’ve had 35 years since the 8th was put in place to make such improvements. It hasn’t happened.
I have no intention of waiting another 35 years to see if anything improves. We need an immediate solution for the issues women are currently facing. It’s cruel to deny them the healthcare that they need.

SusieBlue

horseburger wrote: »

Is it not a logical concern, to consider that the life might last longer than predicted?

There has been cases where the child has lived longer than predicted. Peadar Toibin cited one example in his recent address to the Dáil.

Absolutely. A consideration for the woman/parents of the child to take when making a decision that will affect their family.
Not a consideration for society to have any input on. I don’t have to live with the consequences, the parents do. Their choice, not mine.

kylith

horseburger wrote: »

Is it not a logical concern, to consider that the life might last longer than predicted?

There has been cases where the child has lived longer than predicted. Peadar Toibin cited one example in his recent address to the Dáil.

But whose choice should it be to take that chance? Do 500 mother have to watch their child die an hour after birth for the 1 that will beat the odds? Answer the question, please!

Spanish Eyes

horseburger wrote: »

Is it not a logical concern, to consider that the life might last longer than predicted?

There has been cases where the child has lived longer than predicted. Peadar Toibin cited one example in his recent address to the D.

That is not what I was arguing really. But off you go and see if you can justify 35 years of inaction, abuse of children in care, lack of facilities, supports for parents, ah I could go on.

But no one on the pro birth side seems to get that a woman who does not want to be pregnant cannot rely on State services if she does decide to have a birth, does she, be honest now?

We cannot and should not judge anyone. Trust women please.

horseburger

SusieBlue wrote: »

We’ve had 35 years since the 8th was put in place to make such improvements. It hasn’t happened.
I have no intention of waiting another 35 years to see if anything improves. We need an immediate solution for the issues women are currently facing. It’s cruel to deny them the healthcare that they need.

I was talking about the idea, where it has been argued that the policies of government do not make it easier for people to raise children, in terms of health services and government economic policies.

It has been argued that abortion should be available to avoid having the child brought into such an unequal society.

In that scenario, is it not better to argue for better services, rather than abortion?

Using the argument of arguing for abortion as a result of the lack of services, is there not a risk, that what would result is a higher population of births from areas that are often described as more affluent, than areas that are often described as disadvantaged areas.

Couldn't that lead to the ongoing of an unequal society, if there is a greater population of people from one area and background, compared to another area and background?

PopePalpatine

erica74 wrote: »

I really hate the "babies will die" antichoice posters. It's so inaccurate, as if a yes vote will mean people will run out and start murdering babies.

The melodrama of them is ridiculous, but the pro-lifers won't care. All that matters is grabbing attention and grabbing the floating voter, just like the "If killing babies at 6 months disturbs you, vote NO" posters.

erica74

4 of these along the Quay down as far as the Tower Hotel in Waterford.

Repeal the 8th

Donate if you can, only €15,000 to go to a half a million. That shows how much support we have.
https://togetherforyes.causevox.com/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf1

Spanish Eyes

horseburger wrote: »

I was talking about the idea, where it has been argued that the policies of government do not make it easier for people to raise children, in terms of health services and government economic policies.

It has been argued that abortion should be available to avoid having the child brought into such an unequal society.

In that scenario, is it not better to argue for better services, rather than abortion?

Using the argument of arguing for abortion as a result of the lack of services, is there not a risk, that what would result is a higher population of births from areas that are often described as more affluent, than areas that are often described as disadvantaged areas.

Couldn't that lead to the ongoing of an unequal society, if there is a greater population of people from one area and background, compared to another area and background?

Fair enough, but you still haven't demonstrated why the vast donations to the pro birth side are ploughed into their propaganda rather than used to lobby Government to provide services for those children most in need.

But anyway. This debate has nothing to do with babies or children, it is all about the control of women.

And the irony is, there are a lot of men dictating the terms to women in this debate. As if they will every have to think about the dilemma faced by some women every day. They should feck off out of the debate TBH.

Men hate women to have any control over anything. #Me too.

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

What's your view on the issue?

If you read my posts on the issue, I start from a very simple perspective.

The 8th amendment has been a legal abomination. It doesn't do what it intended to do, and it has had significant unintended side-effects requiring further referenda to clear up. The only logical conclusion is that it should be repealed and the Oireachtas should be given the power to legislate.

I have expressed other views in threads on the issue, but when it comes to the referendum, there is no need to express a view any more than it is legally a mess and should be repealed.

What happens next becomes a matter for the legislation, and I will be happy to debate the merits of the legislative proposals when they are going through the Dail. In the meantime, my view, is that everyone, no matter their personal view on abortion, should vote for repeal, in order to take this mess out of the Constitution.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

I haven't made any judgement about occurrences of miscarriage.

I didn't make any comment justifying not making abortion available.

I asked how abortion can be justified on the basis that abortion involves the deliberate ending of a human life.

The first post I responded to, suggested that the foetus is not a living person.

I asked why that justifies ending that life, considering that the foetus is human and will otherwise undergo human development, if it is not aborted.

Exactly my point when it comes to miscarriage. If you consider abortion murder, why not the rest of what I asked?

I know what you said, and I know what I replied. You still haven't answered the questions.

pjohnson

RE: No Posters

Is there no way they can be stopped from the rubbish they put on the posters? Its essentially false advertising. Is there no regulation over what can go on a poster?

The Legend Of Kira

As expected a small element of repeal have resorted to vandalising & Illegally removing no posters in different parts of the country totally anti democratic .

Ave Sodalis

pjohnson wrote: »

RE: No Posters

Is there no way they can be stopped from the rubbish they put on the posters? Its essentially false advertising. Is there no regulation over what can go on a poster?

I don't know but I'm assuming there's no regulation as nothing has been done. The government are worried about denying free speech and inviting cries of censorship...
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-would-be-very-wary-about-regulating-referendum-posters-836977.html
https://www.newstalk.com/Regulation-of-referendum-posters-would-invite-cries-of-censorship

The Legend Of Kira

pjohnson wrote: »

RE: No Posters

Is there no way they can be stopped from the rubbish they put on the posters? Its essentially false advertising. Is there no regulation over what can go on a poster?

As there is different posters from different groups,, which posters in specific are you referring to ?

Ave Sodalis

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

As expected a small element of repeal have resorted to vandalising & Illegally removing no posters in different parts of the country totally anti democratic .

Definitely a case of two wrongs don't make a right.

pjohnson

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I don't know but I'm assuming there's no regulation as nothing has been done. The government are worried about denying free speech and inviting cries of censorship...
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-would-be-very-wary-about-regulating-referendum-posters-836977.html
https://www.newstalk.com/Regulation-of-referendum-posters-would-invite-cries-of-censorship

Ah that explains it then. I really found it weird to see such blatantly false nonsense.

horseburger

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fair enough, but you still haven't demonstrated why the vast donations to the pro birth side are ploughed into their propaganda rather than used to lobby Government to provide services for those children most in need.

But anyway. This debate has nothing to do with babies or children, it is all about the control of women.

And the irony is, there are a lot of men dictating the terms to women in this debate. As if they will every have to think about the dilemma faced by some women every day. They should feck off out of the debate TBH.

Men hate women to have any control over anything. #Me too.

I am not involved in any group campaigning in the referendum. I'm not in a position to comment with any authority on the fundraising that any organization is doing with regard to the referendum.

Here's an interesting item titled The Socialist Case For Being Pro Life

http://burkeanjournal.com/the-socialist-case-for-being-pro-life/

It includes the following text, with regard to services that should be available to assist families:

"If nothing else, conservatives and libertarians can admire the sincere socialist belief in improving the material conditions of the working class. Whilst we may show a preference towards private ownership as well as a justified apprehension towards state control over the economy it would be wrong to doubt the good faith from which many socialists argue from, motivated in many instances by conditions of poverty and injustice found in Ireland even if their methods are misguided".

"From this understanding one finds it absurd the near unanimity by which the Left either through political parties or affiliated organisations champion the repeal of the Eighth Amendment. Far from overthrowing reactionary norms and liberating women abortion plays fully into the hands and logic of the brand of neoliberal capitalism which the left seeks to replace. It is contrary to the stated goal of the left of protecting the most vulnerable in society but also at odds with a long history of social conservatism within the general left".

"The statistical overrepresentation of working class women having abortions is a well-documented phenomenon. In advocating for abortion many Irish socialists advance what could be the most harmful policy towards working class children imaginable that of prenatal termination. Similar to the demographic role played by emigration since the foundation of the state abortion could very well be another get out of jail free card for the lacklustre Irish establishment allowing for a prenatal reduction in low income children rather than any real reform regarding the welfare of children".

"People Before Profit activists may claim to be anti-system radicals however they are in effective alliance not only with big finance but the increasingly state financed and self-organising consensus that is Irish media in the pursuit of toppling Ireland’s pro-life amendment acting as mere shock troops for the system. Lobbying for abortion in no way challenges large capitalists, in fact it only furthers the creation of their desired world of atomized consumers free of tradition and at the mercy of the market".

Hannibal_Smith

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

As expected a small element of repeal have resorted to vandalising & Illegally removing no posters in different parts of the country totally anti democratic .

Not that I'm supporting vandalism, but how is it anti democratic

gctest50

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

As expected a small element of repeal have resorted to vandalising & Illegally removing no posters in different parts of the country totally anti democratic .

As expected a small element of don't repeal have resorted to cr@p such as 1-in-5 and the graphic pictures

The Legend Of Kira

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

As expected a small element of repeal have resorted to vandalising & Illegally removing no posters in different parts of the country totally anti democratic .

Not that I'm supporting vandalism, but how is it anti democratic

They painted over the poster so the posters argument can,t be seen = attempt to silence opposing arguments = anti democratic to try silence opposing views.

pjohnson

Hard to feel sympathy when the fact being covered is false.

applehunter

It's intolerant for one thing.

Same carry on in Mayfield in Cork.

gctest50

http://www.twitter.com/OpusDeicent/status/984748690593206273/photo/1




.

Spanish Eyes

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

This is the point I was trying to make in another thread on the Christian forum. People have been brainwashed so much into believing abortion is killing babies that that's what they think is being aborted at 12 weeks.

As I said elsewhere, if a foetus up to 12 weeks is has the same rights as the mother and a living baby, then why are their deaths not marked by society in Anyway? Why is there no funeral? And why does all medical care start at 12 weeks? Surely if it was a living being it's life should be monitored from day 1 by the medical professionals?

It's because everyone knows that a 12 week foetus is not the same as a living person. And is never treated as the same in any way, no one gives a hoot about it, until abortion is mentioned.

Good point. Let us see how it is argued.

Spanish Eyes

horseburger wrote: »

I am not involved in any group campaigning in the referendum. I'm not in a position to comment with any authority on the fundraising that any organization is doing with regard to the referendum.

Here's an interesting item titled The Socialist Case For Being Pro Life

http://burkeanjournal.com/the-socialist-case-for-being-pro-life/

It includes the following text, with regard to services that should be available to assist families:

"If nothing else, conservatives and libertarians can admire the sincere socialist belief in improving the material conditions of the working class. Whilst we may show a preference towards private ownership as well as a justified apprehension towards state control over the economy it would be wrong to doubt the good faith from which many socialists argue from, motivated in many instances by conditions of poverty and injustice found in Ireland even if their methods are misguided".

"From this understanding one finds it absurd the near unanimity by which the Left either through political parties or affiliated organisations champion the repeal of the Eighth Amendment. Far from overthrowing reactionary norms and liberating women abortion plays fully into the hands and logic of the brand of neoliberal capitalism which the left seeks to replace. It is contrary to the stated goal of the left of protecting the most vulnerable in society but also at odds with a long history of social conservatism within the general left".

"The statistical overrepresentation of working class women having abortions is a well-documented phenomenon. In advocating for abortion many Irish socialists advance what could be the most harmful policy towards working class children imaginable that of prenatal termination. Similar to the demographic role played by emigration since the foundation of the state abortion could very well be another get out of jail free card for the lacklustre Irish establishment allowing for a prenatal reduction in low income children rather than any real reform regarding the welfare of children".

"People Before Profit activists may claim to be anti-system radicals however they are in effective alliance not only with big finance but the increasingly state financed and self-organising consensus that is Irish media in the pursuit of toppling Ireland’s pro-life amendment acting as mere shock troops for the system. Lobbying for abortion in no way challenges large capitalists, in fact it only furthers the creation of their desired world of atomized consumers free of tradition and at the mercy of the market".

But what is YOUR view on the pro birth side who do not seem to have much interest after the birth.

Hannibal_Smith

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

They painted over the poster so the posters argument can,t be seen = attempt to silence opposing arguments = anti democratic to try silence opposing views.

But is it not intrusive to put them up in the first place? I'm not defending it because I'm for repeal btw....I just hate campaign posters in general

horseburger

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fine, show me where pro birth people have advocated for that? I haven't seen it anyway. Once there is a birth, that is a success for them no matter the consequences for the BORN child afterwards really.

I just saw this item online, an item about the pre budget submission by the Pro Life Campaign, dated September 2017.

https://prolifecampaign.ie/main/pre-budget-2018-pro-life-submission/

The item includes the following introduction:

"This Pre Budget 2018 Submission was made on behalf of the Pro Life Campaign (PLC) on September 2017. PLC made these remarks in response to the invitation by the Department of Finance for submissions from interested parties. Also as part of the ongoing engagement in the improvement of supports and resources for those members of Irish society who may be facing challenges. Mainly if related to unplanned or difficult pregnancies.
In particular, the PLC noted that the budget 2018 preparations should have taken account of the need for further work in the following key areas:
•Lone-parent support
•Bereavement care following pregnancy loss and peri-natal death
•Homelessness
•Pregnancy and Second/Third Level Education
•Mental health issues
•Adoption".

Spanish Eyes

Should be like in France where posters for this and that election are only allowed in one place in each area.

The higher on the ESB pole the better to view from a car or bus. Even though the ESB has asked that no posters be placed on their poles. But no. Has to happen, it is TRADITION!

yrreg0850

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

It is being replaced.

Why do the posters and those on the campaign say "Repeal the 8th"

amdublin

Crowd funding at €488k
It's a given we will reach half a million just a matter of when

To think when it went live on tuesday the initial goal was to raise €50k in a week

And here we are four days later at €488k

https://togetherforyes.causevox.com/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf1