The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Hannibal_Smith

This is too important a vote to rely on what you see in a poster. Please research, educate and come to your own personal conclusions. Research the status of a feotus. Read the experiences of others, those who travelled and those who didn't. Don't vote based on what you see on poster .

horseburger

robarmstrong wrote: »

That's all well and good but try extra hard to answer the questions I've actually asked, rather than share YouTube links.

I already stated that I have not objected to abortion being availed of.

If you don't want to read my reply and understand the point I was making about how people advocate for abortion through vague phrases and slogans, knock yourself out, but don't suggest that I haven't answered you.

horseburger

volchitsa wrote: »

I think BPAS and thr NHS etc are in a very different position from a random American though, no matter how many abortions he himself has carried out - they ar after all providing a health service that I have heard (and read on here) prolifers use as an explanation for why the law in Ireland doesnt need to change!

A doctor with experience in carrying out abortions is hardly a random person.

Numerous doctors have given addresses to both the Citizens Assembly and Oireachtas Committee detailing their perspectives, on the issues related to abortion.

Do you consider them randomers?

Do you consider Dr Peter McParland, of the National Maternity Hospital, who addressed the Citizens' Assembly on 7th January 2017, a random Irish man?

Here is the report he prepared and submitted, to the Citizens' Assembly for consideration:

https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/Meetings/Dr-Peter-McParland-Paper.pdf

https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/Meetings/Dr-Peter-McParland-Powerpoint-Presentation.pdf

Is Dr. Peter Thompson, Consultant in Maternal Fetal Medicine, Birmingham Women’s and Children’s Hospital, NHS Foundation Trust, who addressed the Oireachtas Committee, on 29th November 2017, a random English man?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=37383&&CatID=127&StartDate=01 January 2017&OrderAscending=0

https://media.heanet.ie/p/20171129+Joint+Committee+on+Eighth+Amendment+of+the+Constitution/psshOJ

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/EAJ2017112900002?opendocument#C02250

https://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_the_eighth_amendment_of_the_constitution/2017-11-29/3/

gctest50

horseburger wrote: »

A doctor with experience in carrying out abortions is hardly a random person.

..

That one used to perform abortions, then his child got hit by a car outside the house and died

While terribly tragic, there is nothing worse than a reformed whore

Why should his tragic event affect the health and safety of Irish Women

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

gctest50

horseburger wrote: »

.......................

Do you consider Dr Peter McParland, of the National Maternity Hospital, who addressed the Citizens' Assembly, a random Irish man?

Here is the report he prepared and submitted, to the Citizens' Assembly for consideration:

https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/Meetings/Dr-Peter-McParland-Paper.pdf


...................

And it seems it would be better if it was available here :

We as health professionals are not allowed to refer, promote or advocate termination of pregnancy but we are allowed to provide all ofthe information to the relevant unit in the UK.

One of the difficulties with travelling abroad is the frequent lack of a post-mortem.

Thus it is not possible in a number of cases to pinpoint the diagnosis and thus give appropriate counselling for a future pregnancy.

That's an angle you wouldn't think of readily

.

Fred Swanson

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Actually he did make it illegal.

seamus

BabyCheeses wrote: »

I found a link after a bit of searching. I think I know why Robert wasn't keen on sharing it.

http://theliberal.ie/garda-investigation-underway-after-numerous-pro-life-posters-have-been-illegally-pulled-down/

funnily enough its the complete lack of any social media posts about destroying pro-life posters that makes this look even less credible.

I don't see anyone destroying posters, it doesn't appear on social media, and the Sherlock family newspaper contains exactly zero links to social media posts where it's taking place.

Which all indicates that it's a fabrication. Another example of the Christian victimisation complex.

horseburger

gctest50 wrote: »

That one used to perform abortions, then his child got hit by a car outside the house and died

While terribly tragic, there is nothing worse than a reformed whore

Why should his tragic event affect the health and safety of Irish Women

I think what he was doing was relating the death he experienced of his child, to the death that occurs in abortion.

Perhaps he changed his perspective on abortion when he experienced the death of his own child, and perhaps he related that to the idea that when a doctor carries out an abortion, that they are engaging in a procedure that involves the ending the life of a human foetus/baby that is biologically linked to someone else.

Maybe the death of his own child made the issue of abortion a more personal issue for him?

Did you see Declan Ganley being interviewed by Sarah McInterney recently on TV3?

He was talking about the issue of the option of abortion that was available to him and wife Delia, in New York.

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1313/141024/0/The-Sunday-Show

applehunter

seamus wrote: »

funnily enough its the complete lack of any social media posts about destroying pro-life posters that makes this look even less credible.

I don't see anyone destroying posters, it doesn't appear on social media, and the Sherlock family newspaper contains exactly zero links to social media posts where it's taking place.

Which all indicates that it's a fabrication. Another example of the Christian victimisation complex.

There are posters in Ballyvolane in Cork that have been plastered in paint.

I'll take a few snaps for you tomorrow.

horseburger

applehunter wrote: »

Who are the YES going to put forward for debates?

They may unite under "Together for Yes" but that is a very large umbrella ranging from those that would favour restrictive abortion to those that believe there should be no restrictions.

That's an interesting point. I'd imagine public representatives like Ivana Bacik, Ruth Coppinger and Clare Daly would be advocating for abortion to be more wide ranging than a 12 week limit, than perhaps many of the Fine Gael public representatives.

Ruth Coppinger stated in the Dáil on 7th March 2017, that she doesn't consider that a woman who is pregnant is a mother until the baby is born. What struck me about that comment, was that if people like Danny Healy Rae, Ronan Mullen or Peter Fitzpatrick said that, they'd be accused of sexism and belittling women.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=34782&&CatID=130&StartDate=01 January 2017&OrderAscending=0

https://media.heanet.ie/player/0eab3802edbaf59f7899ee8bd971cdad

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2017030700050?opendocument

And at least one Fine Gael Senator, who chaired the Oireachtas Committee meetings on the Eight Amendment, doesn't seem to consider that anyone aged 80 and over, should express views on the issue!:)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/senator-who-chaired-abortion-committee-deletes-tweet-slamming-preaching-of-octogenarian-priest-835356.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rector-defends-octogenarian-priest-in-tweet-row-36768472.html

I think Catherine Noone spoke more convincingly when she highlighted the scourge of the chimes on ice cream vans.

http://www.thejournal.ie/catherine-noone-on-ice-cream-vans-1512396-Jun2014/

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/11/sundae-bloody-sundae/

gctest50

horseburger wrote: »

..............

Did you see Declan Ganley being interviewed by Sarah McInterney recently on TV3?

He was talking about the issue of the option of abortion that was available to him and wife Delia, in New York.

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1313/141024/0/The-Sunday-Show

Poor man seems to be almost falling apart ( remembering how touch n go it probably was)

Then again with 400 million in the bank you have a few more healthcare options open


So is the answer we give 400 million to every woman who gets pregnant so she can keep the options open ?

horseburger

gctest50 wrote: »

Poor man seems to be almost falling apart ( remembering how touch n go it probably was)

Then again with 400 million in the bank you have a few more healthcare options open


So is the answer we give 400 million to every woman who gets pregnant so she can keep the options open ?

You don't consider that he spoke sincerely on the issue?

applehunter

[QUOTE=horseburger;106730251
I think Catherine Noone spoke more convincingly when she highlighted the scourge of the chimes on ice cream vans.

http://www.thejournal.ie/catherine-noone-on-ice-cream-vans-1512396-Jun2014/

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/11/sundae-bloody-sundae/[/QUOTE]

Can we rerun that Seanad referendum again?:D

I like Brid Smith & Claire Daly but they maybe a bit too radical?

NinetyTwoTeam

out here in the sticks of Donegal haven't seen a single repeal poster/canvasser, but been canvassed twice by anti-choicers and found leaflets left in, strangely enough, the smoking area of a pub. doesn't surprise me though, as backwards as this place is.

gctest50

horseburger wrote: »

You don't consider that he spoke sincerely on the issue?

He spoke sincerely of his experience

Why should his experience affect the health and safety of Irish Women ?

horseburger

gctest50 wrote: »

He spoke sincerely of his experience

Why should his experience affect the health and safety of Irish Women ?

I didn't say his experience should affect anyone else. I thought it was interesting how he detailed his views on the issue.

It also struck me that the fact that his wife was in New York, when they received the diagnosis, that the scenario they were in - where they had the choice to have an abortion or not have an abortion - could be used as an example not to have concerns about abortion being made more widely available in Ireland, in the sense that they chose not to go through with the abortion, despite the procedure having been offered to them at the hospital.

I thought it was insightful hearing him speak about the idea of considering each new life unique, and doing what's possible to help that life survive, in cases of a diagnosis, of a what is often termed, a life limiting condition.

horseburger

applehunter wrote: »

Can we rerun that Seanad referendum again?:D

I like Brid Smith & Claire Daly but they maybe a bit too radical?

I thought Bríd Smith performed very poorly in this debate with Vincent Browme in July 2017 about abortion, when they were discussing the issue of the humanity of the foetus/baby.

She resorted to personal attacks on Maria Steen, when Maria Steen had responded countering Bríd Smith's argument about dependency, from the 16 minute mark, in the video below.

Note how Kate O'Connell sat back during that section of dialogue, and stayed silent during that section, and didn't intervene to help Bríd Smith out.

RobertKK

gctest50 wrote: »

That is some warped logic

Who said the ESB removed them, I didn't. The Gardai are investigating the illegal removal of posters.

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

funnily enough its the complete lack of any social media posts about destroying pro-life posters that makes this look even less credible.

I don't see anyone destroying posters, it doesn't appear on social media, and the Sherlock family newspaper contains exactly zero links to social media posts where it's taking place.

Which all indicates that it's a fabrication. Another example of the Christian victimisation complex.

Maybe the shadowbanning on twitter of pro-lives of the mother and unborn baby accounts is helping to block out people seeing the illegal activity.
There is evidence of twitter helping the repeal side.
Just as the government is with Leo Varadkar telling people to fund the yes side, organisations who get tax payers money openly supporting the yes side. Inclusion Ireland who get near all their money from taxpayers were the latest who want to exclude the unborn life.

I have seen plenty of pictures on twitter, but I follow numerous accounts which are shadow banned.

Madscientist30

horseburger wrote: »

gctest50 wrote: »

That one used to perform abortions, then his child got hit by a car outside the house and died

While terribly tragic, there is nothing worse than a reformed whore

Why should his tragic event affect the health and safety of Irish Women

I think what he was doing was relating the death he experienced of his child, to the death that occurs in abortion.

Perhaps he changed his perspective on abortion when he experienced the death of his own child, and perhaps he related that to the idea that when a doctor carries out an abortion, that they are engaging in a procedure that involves the ending the life of a human foetus/baby that is biologically linked to someone else.

Maybe the death of his own child made the issue of abortion a more personal issue for him?

Did you see Declan Ganley being interviewed by Sarah McInterney recently on TV3?

He was talking about the issue of the option of abortion that was available to him and wife Delia, in New York.

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1313/141024/0/The-Sunday-Show

But he is wrong to equate them then isnt he, in your eyes? You have said that you don't believe that abortion is murder, whereas the deliberate ending of a child's life would of course be murder. You are claiming that pro-choice people are using euphemisms for abortion and the fetus in order to shy away from or rationalise the reality of what is happening. But you have never labelled what that actually is, except getting offended when I suggested you think it is murder.

You are going on and on about the ending of human life. But you are also saying that you favour abortion in some cases. So what exactly is your point here? Abortion is ok in some circumstances, but we must all acknowledge the humanity of the foetus at all times, and that its life is being ended, but it's not murder? And if it is ended for reasons you believe it then that's fine? Does that sum up your position, or could you clarify? Maybe you could give us your own thoughts instead of asking the same question over and over, not taking on board any responses and posting endless links and propagada videos.

Madscientist30

horseburger wrote: »

applehunter wrote: »

Who are the YES going to put forward for debates?

They may unite under "Together for Yes" but that is a very large umbrella ranging from those that would favour restrictive abortion to those that believe there should be no restrictions.

That's an interesting point. I'd imagine public representatives like Ivana Bacik, Ruth Coppinger and Clare Daly would be advocating for abortion to be more wide ranging than a 12 week limit, than perhaps many of the Fine Gael public representatives.

Ruth Coppinger stated in the Dáil on 7th March 2017, that she doesn't consider that a woman who is pregnant is a mother until the baby is born. What struck me about that comment, was that if people like Danny Healy Rae, Ronan Mullen or Peter Fitzpatrick said that, they'd be accused of sexism and belittling women.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=34782&&CatID=130&StartDate=01 January 2017&OrderAscending=0

https://media.heanet.ie/player/0eab3802edbaf59f7899ee8bd971cdad

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2017030700050?opendocument

And at least one Fine Gael Senator, who chaired the Oireachtas Committee meetings on the Eight Amendment, doesn't seem to consider that anyone aged 80 and over, should express views on the issue!:)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/senator-who-chaired-abortion-committee-deletes-tweet-slamming-preaching-of-octogenarian-priest-835356.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rector-defends-octogenarian-priest-in-tweet-row-36768472.html

I think Catherine Noone spoke more convincingly when she highlighted the scourge of the chimes on ice cream vans.

http://www.thejournal.ie/catherine-noone-on-ice-cream-vans-1512396-Jun2014/

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/11/sundae-bloody-sundae/

Your posts read like bot posts.....short sentence-link-short comment-link-link-link-short comment-link-video. Why not actually talk about what YOU think or feel?

Edward M

Interesting to see some of the comments behind the donations to the repeal campaign during the week, emotional reasoning from personal experiences.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/abortion-fundraiser-lays-35-year-history-bare-837271.html

amdublin

horseburger wrote: »

I thought Bríd Smith performed very poorly in this debate with Vincent Browme in July 2017 about abortion, when they were discussing the issue of the humanity of the foetus/baby.

She resorted to personal attacks on Maria Steen, when Maria Steen had responded countering Bríd Smith's argument about dependency, from the 16 minute mark, in the video below.

Note how Kate O'Connell sat back during that section of dialogue, and stayed silent during that section, and didn't intervene to help Bríd Smith out.

Did we watch the same video??

From the 16m mark you've Maria Steen with a very raised voice.

Brid Smith does not make a personal remark.
She states a fact about Maria Steen behaviour on the show:
- In the midst of 16m-18m approx Maria Steen admonishes vincent.
- At the end of this Brid states "she is trying to tell you how to run -your show vincent".

Kate O Connell does not join in because that's how debates should be. Have you ever heard of one voice at one time.

It is my opinion you have misrepresented what was in this video.

My initial thought was that I won't be watching any more videos you post.
But maybe I will and will fact check it against the comments you post about it.

Ave Sodalis

NinetyTwoTeam wrote:

out here in the sticks of Donegal haven't seen a single repeal poster/canvasser, but been canvassed twice by anti-choicers and found leaflets left in, strangely enough, the smoking area of a pub. doesn't surprise me though, as backwards as this place is.

Well I don't think that last line is fair or particularly true. The repeal campaign has only just got the funds to campaign. Together 4 Yes Donegal have a public meeting night on Monday as far as I know.

volchitsa

Edward M wrote: »

Interesting to see some of the comments behind the donations to the repeal campaign during the week, emotional reasoning from personal experiences.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/abortion-fundraiser-lays-35-year-history-bare-837271.html

I don't see how an issue like abortion can fail to take account of personal experience, it's not something that has a simple right/wrong answer - the legal mess we are now in proves that.

If we were starting from the Jehovah's Witness tradition of banning blood donations, and were considering whether to maintain a legal ban that our more religious predecessors had brought in, then the experience of past victims of that ban would of course be relevant.

Annasopra

petalgumdrops wrote: »

Have you read the proposals or the wording of the 36th amendment? When you do get back to me. While there may be no appetite to increase or impose a limit beyond 12 weeks, limits will not be placed into our constitution. When we vote on repeal we will never vote again and it will be our politicians who can and will provide for an upper limit. From reading the posts here it seems many people feel the unborn should have zero rights and so the increasing of limits are not beyond the realm of possibility in near future. European average would not be likelt to exceed 18 weeks but limits CAN be moved by the government and not the people
. This is what repealing an amended does.

You are not making any sense at all. The 36th amendment does not mean unlimited abortion.

Annasopra

petalgumdrops wrote: »

God I wonder why a pro-choice Lawyer group would spout lies then so?

What are you referring to?

Annasopra

Trasna1 wrote: »

I've no problem with our system of government. I was responding to the point that the government could retain the ban on abortion following removal of the 8th, or reintroduce a ban at some future time. The argument I was making was that would be unlikely since a right to bodily integrity would in a modern context infer a right to abortion. This was one of the original arguments for the 8th in 83 - which in the context of the time was a stretch but not now.
Indeed, any such challenge on the basis of the Constitution could find the idea of term limits unconstitutional.

They wouldnt be unconstitutional because the 36th amendment EXPLICITLY allows the oireachtas to legislate!!!!!!

Annasopra

Trasna1 wrote: »

They're is no case law because the 8th would have prevented it. In my opinion the right to bodily integrity which is moderated at present by the rights afforded the unborn by the 8th, would imply that a person would have a right to abortion treatment, up to the point of viability at least,

What legal basis have you for this opinion? Or is it just more scare mongering?