The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Neither of which are diagnosable before 12 weeks



Unfortunately, this is not really true and entirely too subjective and is often left until the last possible moment. Reading the aforementioned In Her Shoes, you'll see that many women get diagnosed with an illness and go to England so they can come back for treatment instead of waiting until they are actively dying.


Why is that important? Genuine question.


How so?


Do you really believe it's the ending of a life? Would you give "abortionists" jail time if you had the choice? Would you prevent them from traveling? What about the fact that abortion is already happening?


So you disagree with IVF?


No. Just no. I'm sorry but I cannot be respectful of this. There are exceptions to everything. It does not excuse allowing women to suffer just because there is a tiny chance of live birth. What about the pain the birthed baby will be in until it dies? If they're lucky, they'll die within a minute or two. They can survive for hours or days though.



Again, why?



I'm afraid you'll have to come up with a more convincing argument than what you have to change my stance.

I realise you said you will not be posting again, but this is for the benefit of anyone reading over the thread.

With reference to the fact that numerous TDs and Senators would like no restriction on availability of abortion, and that there are a number of items which state that there is nothing certain that the legislation enacted in the event of a majority vote to repeal, will be limited to abortion for only up to 12 weeks, it should be noted that Down's Syndrome can be detected at 12 weeks.

Sally Phillips, in her documentary A World Without Down's Syndrome?, states that Down's Syndrome can be diagnosed at 12 weeks.

She says at the three minute mark in the video.

"I've come to Kings College Hospital in London to meet some women who are having their 12 week scan. Today's the day when mother's find out when their babies are due and whether they're growing normally. It's also the day when doctors first test your baby for Down's Syndrome".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas-committee-on-eighth-amendment-publishes-40-page-report-1.3333670.

This Irish Times item by Sarah Bardon includes the following:

"Members of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment have insisted they cannot compel the Government to accept their recommendations".

pleas advice

robarmstrong wrote: »

there's honestly no point continually asking a question that nobody here realistically is qualified to answer..

I only asked the question again to counter the claim:

Pedro K wrote: »

if you're going to mention to mental health angle, it's been done.

AtomicHorror

pleas advice wrote: »

epic, but kinda misses the point completely.

there is a difference between active destruction of a human life, and passive indifference

Pop goes the irony detector.

The point wasn't to do with legality, or even the morality of action versus inaction. It was to do with bodily autonomy and the fact that we respect it even for bodies of the dead, despite the stakes being the life of another living and innocent person.

robarmstrong

pleas advice wrote: »

I only asked the question again to counter the claim:

My bad, missed that point!

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

With reference to the fact that numerous TDs and Senators would like no restriction on availability of abortion, and that there are a number of items which state that there is nothing certain that the legislation enacted in the event of a majority vote to repeal, will be limited to abortion for only up to 12 weeks, it should be noted that Down's Syndrome can be detected at 12 weeks.

Sally Phillips, in her documentary A World Without Down's Syndrome?, states that Down's Syndrome can be diagnosed at 12 weeks.

She says at the three minute mark in the video.

"I've come to Kings College Hospital in London to meet some women who are having their 12 week scan. Today's the day when mother's find out when their babies are due and whether they're growing normally. It's also the day when doctors first test your baby for Down's Syndrome".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas-committee-on-eighth-amendment-publishes-40-page-report-1.3333670.

This Irish Times item by Sarah Bardon includes the following:

"Members of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment have insisted they cannot compel the Government to accept their recommendations".

We have gone over the whole "don't trust the government with legislation" thing many many times already.


The first test is at 12 weeks, it's not diagnosed until about 22 weeks...

AtomicHorror

horseburger wrote: »

With reference to the fact that numerous TDs and Senators would like no restriction on availability of abortion, and that there are a number of items which state that there is nothing certain that the legislation enacted in the event of a majority vote to repeal, will be limited to abortion for only up to 12 weeks, it should be noted that Down's Syndrome can be detected at 12 weeks.

And how long does it take for the labs to come back, the consultation to be made, the referral for a termination, the waiting time for the procedure?

What're the false positive and false negative rates for that test, out of interest?

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Question; if you're not sure yet, why are you only arguing against repeal?

Also, if you want to know why posters are responding to you the way they are, it's to do with your posting style. The harping on about human life, despite mod warning. The stating things and pretending you didn't mean that even though you clearly did. The not answering questions (which I STILL have not had an answer for). The videos and links that have nothing to do with the discussion, particularly when the discussion isn't going the way you want it. And yet you wonder why posters have an "attitude" when replying to you.

The majority of the posters in this thread are advocating for repeal.

Is it not natural to ask questions to find out the arguments for changing the constitution, with respect to how new legislation might impact on services made available, and what services different people are saying they want available?


I think you might be thinking that it was you that I might be referencing when I said some posters have an attitude.

Well done. At least you now know that because of your arrogance, that you'd be useless canvassing on this issue.

Martina1991

horseburger wrote:

Sally Phillips, in her documentary A World Without Down's Syndrome?, states that Down's Syndrome can be diagnosed at 12 weeks.

But 12 weeks is over the unrestricted limit anyway. So no one can have an unrestricted abortion based on a down's syndrome diagnosis.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

The majority of the posters in this thread are advocating for repeal.

Is it not natural to ask questions to find out the arguments for changing the constitution, with respect to how new legislation might impact on services made available, and what services different people are saying they want available?


I think you might be thinking that it was you that I might be referencing when I said some posters have an attitude.

Well done. At least you now know that because of your arrogance, that you'd be useless canvassing on this issue.

It is natural to ask questions, but I think it's a bit pointless at this stage to pretend that's what you're doing...

Nice little personal dig in there too.

horseburger

Martina1991 wrote: »

But 12 weeks is over the unrestricted limit anyway. So no one can have an unrestricted abortion based on a down's syndrome diagnosis.

There is nothing definite that the legislation will be limited to up to 12 weeks, if there is a majority vote to repeal.

Ave Sodalis

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

We have gone over the whole "don't trust the government with legislation" thing many many times already...

It seems to be a common statement with a lot of the prolife posters on here; Are they unable to trust politicians to legislate in other areas such as road safety?

horseburger

horseburger wrote: »

There is nothing definite that the legislation will be limited to up to 12 weeks, if there is a majority vote to repeal.

Sorry but this is just rinse and repeat at this stage.

Ave Sodalis

DubInMeath wrote: »

It seems to be a common statement with a lot of the prolife posters on here; Are unable to trust politicians to legislate in other areas such as road safety?

The unknown is an easy cop out. Somehow the government are going to go from one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the world, to one of the most liberal.

captbarnacles

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

We have gone over the whole "don't trust the government with legislation" thing many many times already.


The first test is at 12 weeks, it's not diagnosed until about 22 weeks...

It's been a few years but certainly it used to be you could not diagnose it at 12 weeks. They would give you a percentage chance based on the measurements.

Ave Sodalis

captbarnacles wrote: »

It's been a few years but certainly it used to be you could not diagnose it at 12 weeks. They would give you a percentage chance based on the measurements.

That's exactly what is it. 12 weeks is the first screening test.

miocicmma

Personally I will vote Yes. But I feel that the public will vote to retain the Eighth amendment. There are too many people who will vote from the grey vote, The religious right, and the anti choice crowd in general.

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

It is natural to ask questions, but I think it's a bit pointless at this stage to pretend that's what you're doing...

Nice little personal dig in there too.

My comment is a reference to how you are coming across.

Earlier in the thread, you contended that BPAS were welcome to address the Citizens Assembly and Oireachta Committee as long as it didn't advocate a position on whether abortion should be available in Ireland.

I showed you an item from the Abortion Rights Campaign from 2013, that indicated that BPAS very much did give a position on the issue as to whether abortion should be available in Ireland.

No response from you.

I showed you how BPAS has registered the www.abortion.ie site that links to www.bpas.co.uk.

No response from you.

It seems clear to me that BPAS is not an impartial observer on this issue, yet you claimed that because they didn't - in your view - give opinions on laws on abortion in Ireland, that it was welcome, in 2017, to address both the Citizens' Assembly and Oireachtas Committee.

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/11/15/bpas-serves-notice-to-the-irish-government/

http://glykosymoritis.blogspot.ie/2013/11/ireland-bpas-serves-notice-to-irish.html#!/2013/11/ireland-bpas-serves-notice-to-irish.html

pleas advice

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Pop goes the irony detector.
The point wasn't to do with legality, or even the morality of action versus inaction. It was to do with bodily autonomy and the fact that we respect it even for bodies of the dead, despite the stakes being the life of another living and innocent person.

I thought the point was to counter the following:

LimeGreenBean wrote: »

MkaylaK wrote:

I cannot justify destroying innocent human life.

I guess this is the crux of the pro-life movement ... in response to this argument:

Ave Sodalis

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

The unknown is an easy cop out. Somehow the government are going to go from one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the world, to one of the most liberal.

Don't get me wrong I can understand where mistrust of politicians can come from, but the statements in relation to repeal show nothing in relation to the surposed abortion on demand up to 24 weeks and till just before birth is just scaremongering.

What is also ignored by them is the fact that if the country was to shift politically to the far right for example, politicians could then legislate to make abortion illegal in all cases. It's an unlikely situation to be sure (hopefully) but its about as likely as what they are saying could happen in the future once the 8th is repealed.

Annasopra

horseburger wrote: »

With reference to the fact that numerous TDs and Senators would like no restriction on availability of abortion, and that there are a number of items which state that there is nothing certain that the legislation enacted in the event of a majority vote to repeal, will be limited to abortion for only up to 12 weeks, it should be noted that Down's Syndrome can be detected at 12 weeks.

Sally Phillips, in her documentary A World Without Down's Syndrome?, states that Down's Syndrome can be diagnosed at 12 weeks.

She says at the three minute mark in the video.

"I've come to Kings College Hospital in London to meet some women who are having their 12 week scan. Today's the day when mother's find out when their babies are due and whether they're growing normally. It's also the day when doctors first test your baby for Down's Syndrome".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas-committee-on-eighth-amendment-publishes-40-page-report-1.3333670.

This Irish Times item by Sarah Bardon includes the following:

"Members of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment have insisted they cannot compel the Government to accept their recommendations".

Which TDs want no restrictions?

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

My comment is a reference to how you are coming across.

Earlier in the thread, you contended that BPAS were welcome to address the Citizens Assembly and Oireachta Committee as long as it didn't advocate a position on whether abortion should be available in Ireland.

I showed you an item from the Abortion Rights Campain from 2013, that indicated that BPAS very much did give a position on the issue as to whether abortion should be available in Ireland.

No response from you.

I showed you how BPAS has registered the www.abortion.ie site that links to www.bpas.co.uk.

No response from you.

It seems clear to me that BPAS is not an impartial observer on this issue, yet you claimed that because they didn't - in your view - give opinions on laws on abortion in Ireland, that it was welcome to address both the Citizens' Assembly and Oireachtas Committee.

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/11/15/bpas-serves-notice-to-the-irish-government/

http://glykosymoritis.blogspot.ie/2013/11/ireland-bpas-serves-notice-to-irish.html#!/2013/11/ireland-bpas-serves-notice-to-irish.html

I did respond. I told you repeatedly that you misread what I had wrote to the point you were saying I had wrote the complete opposite to what I did (P.S. you've done it again in this post). I repeatedly told you how you misread it, and repeatedly told what I did say. I'm not sure how telling you that over and over and you still ignoring it is considered arrogance on my part.

Larbre34

Apropos of nothing, I've been surprised by the lack of opinion polls on the issue since the date was fixed for the ref. I couldn't see even one in the media over the weekend and I can't recall one in recent weeks. Odd considering we are in the teeth of the campaigns now.

applehunter

DubInMeath wrote: »

It seems to be a common statement with a lot of the prolife posters on here; Are they unable to trust politicians to legislate in other areas such as road safety?

Do you trust politicians?

Put that to a poll.

:pac:

Yer Da sells Avon

miocicmma wrote: »

Personally I will vote Yes. But I feel that the public will vote to retain the Eighth amendment. There are too many people who will vote from the grey vote, The religious right, and the anti choice crowd in general.

You underestimate the intentions of the grey vote. The majority of those who voted against the 8th Amendment in the first place are now 'the grey vote'.

horseburger

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Which TDs want no restrictions?

Clare Daly has stated the following to The Journal

"My views on abortion are well-known so, yes we should change our laws to provide access to safe legal abortion in Ireland as part of the health service in order to protect women’s health and be human rights compliant."

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-committee-members-3591836-Sep2017/

People Before Profit advocate an unrestrctive policy on abortion.

PBP includes Richard Boyd Barrett, Gino Kenny, Bríd Smith.

The People Before Profit position is stated as follows:

"supports a woman’s right to make her own decisions regarding reproduction, including the right to free, safe, and legal abortion"

https://richardboydbarrett.ie/policies/abortion-policy/

Below is a link to some advice from PBP for canvassers advocating repeal.

I don't like the way it suggests that people who might vote no in this referendum - or at the very least have concerns about the fundamental issue of abortion - might have been the same people who voted no in the 2015 marriage referendum.

I don't much like the way it makes the abortion question a religious issue:

"Either we will continue on the course set by the Marriage Equality referendum towards a freer, more enlightened and more equal society or we will take a major step backwards towards the dark ages of repression, abuse and religious bigotry from which we have only recently emerged".

I don't like the way it somewhat dismisses a concern I have on this referendum, about trusting politicians to legislate on this issue.

"It fits perfectly with what needs to be another key theme in the campaign , the need to ‘Trust Women’. The anti-choicer campaign will try to play the populist ‘dont leave it to the politicians’. They will say you can’t trust the politicians and this will have a resonance with a number of working class people. We have to counter with ‘We are NOT saying trust the politicians, we are saying “trust women”, it must be the woman’s choice".

http://www.pbp.ie/how-to-win-on-25-may/

I have a concern on that issue with regard to how public representatives very often vote on legislation, with regard to the survival of their own political career, rather than the issue they are voting on.

As an example the the then Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin, now Fine Gael Senator, voting in 2013 on the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill, to avoid being "booted out of the party, my party".

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2013071000041#N6

Did Michelle Mulherin vote to abolish the Seanad? If so, it is not hypocritical to now occupy a Seanad seat, if she campaigned to abolish the room in which that seat is located?

Even is you dislike Lucinda Creighton's politics and viewpoints, it is interesting to consider, that Lucinda Creighton would very likely be a government Minister now, if she had voted as per the government line in 2013.

Michelle Mulherin didn't approve of the 2013 Protection of Lie During Pregnancy Bill, but voted for it to retain her position and profile in Fine Gael.

I have mentioned Aodhan O'Riordain a few times with regard to his attitude that he thought the Seanad wasn't worthy of his presence.

How could anyone trust Regina Doherty to vote on any issue like this, when she is saying something now, that is the opposite of what she said in 2014, when she pretty much stated 'if women don't want to get pregnant they have contraceptives available to them'.

What didn't she know, in 2014, about abortion statistics and numbers of women travelling abroad for abortions, that she only recently became aware of?

I could well imagine that any voter who isn't sure what way to vote on 25th May - because of concerns about abortion while at the same time understanding the perspectives of those who call for abortion - wouldn't have made flippant comments like that, at any stage over the last 35 years since the 1983 referendum.

Yet she claimed recently that she was ignorant on this issue in 2014.

This item in The Irish Times from 2014, written by Mary Minihane, makes reference to an interview Regina Doherty did with Michael Reade on LMFM:

The item includes the following lines.

"Ms Doherty said she also disagreed with the pro-choice view that women in Ireland did not have determination over their own bodies".

“I genuinely and firmly believe that women already have the determination over their own bodies and that’s called contraceptives, so make the decisions before you find yourself in a position where you’re using an abortion as a form of a contraceptive afterwards.”".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fine-gael-td-backs-colleague-s-call-for-abortion-referendum-1.1912286


She stated recently that her 2014 views were born out of "ignorance"

The February 2018 Irish Times item below states:

"Regina Doherty says her previous opposition to legalisation of abortion was ‘born out of ignorance’"

This is despite her stating in 2014, that she "genuinely and firmly" believed what she said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/repeal-campaigners-will-not-accept-a-no-vote-says-minister-1.3430112

Solidarity (Socialist Party) includes Mick Barry, Ruth Coppinger and Paul Murphy. They argue for abortion in less restrictive circumstances than just for up to 12 weeks.

It's campaigns on changing abortion laws in Ireland is detailed here:

http://socialistparty.ie/2018/03/international-womens-day-2018-fight-abortion-rights-ireland/

In this item below, Ruth Coppinger states:

"We’d have to say the recommendations are historic, if you consider only four years ago the same parties voted for criminal sanctions against people having abortions. The hope was the Dáil Committee would water down the unexpected recommendations of the Assembly. This was the media commentary at the time. And it did row back on later term abortions, which is a cop-out. But the 12 weeks on request is hugely significant and would cater for 92% of abortions. I think the pressure of events forced the Committee members to deal with the reality of abortion for the first time. There was nowhere left to hide"

http://socialistparty.ie/2018/01/socialist-pro-choice-td-speaks-interview-ruth-coppinger/

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I did respond. I told you repeatedly that you misread what I had wrote to the point you were saying I had wrote the complete opposite to what I did (P.S. you've done it again in this post). I repeatedly told you how you misread it, and repeatedly told what I did say. I'm not sure how telling you that over and over and you still ignoring it is considered arrogance on my part.

You are now denying that you said that it was fine for BPAS to address the Citizens' Assembly and Oireachtas Committee in 2017, despite the fact that it advocated a stance as far back as 2013

Below are your posts where you said it was fine for BPAS to address both the Assembly and Committee as long as it didn't advocate a stance, despite BPAS having advocated a stance in 2013.

You also seem to be suggesting - when you stated "I said nobody outside of the country should be meddling in the referendum of that country, unless they can bring something to the table that nobody in the country can", - that BPAS can provide some form of abortion and healthcare advice that Irish doctors wouldn't be able to provide.

Then you contradict yourself by saying that BPAS can address the 2017 Citizens' Assembly and 2017 Oireachtas Committee - despite BPAS having given a stated position on abortion laws in Ireland, as far back as 2013. BPAS criticized the Irish government for not providing abortion services.

Here are the two items I referenced.

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/11/15/bpas-serves-notice-to-the-irish-government/

https://glykosymoritis.blogspot.ie/2013/11/ireland-bpas-serves-notice-to-irish.html#!/2013/11/ireland-bpas-serves-notice-to-irish.html

You stated of BPAS - where you were clearly unaware that in 2013 BPAS had indicated a stance on the laws in Ireland - with reference to the attendance of BPAS representatives at the 2017 Citizens' Assembly and 2017 Oireachtas Committee, that "They are perfectly allowed to have and state their opinions but I don't believe those opinions should have anything to do with a referendum at an official level".

horseburger wrote: »

You said that BPAS could speak at the Citizens' Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee on the Eight Amendment, as long as it didn't take a position with regard to the laws on abortion in another country.

BPAS made criticisms of the Irish government in 2013, with regard to abortion laws in Ireland.

Considering it has made criticisms of abortion laws in Ireland, one can well assume that BPAS would be taking a definite position on the upcoming referendum.

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/11/15/bpas-serves-notice-to-the-irish-government/

If BPAS isn't taking an interest in the upcoming referendum, why has it registered the website www.abortion.ie that diverts to the official BPAS website?

The Abortion Rights Campaign item above includes the following text:

"For many of our followers the BPAS notice was an act of solidarity with women in Ireland who have travelled, or who will be obliged to travel to one of their clinics to access abortion services. For other supporters BPAS were directly calling our Government to action, questioning it’s ability to care for women in Ireland by saying – ‘We’ll care for your women until your government does’".

"Those who hold opposing anti-choice views were naturally outraged by the BPAS Notice. They questioned its legality, given Ireland’s strict abortion laws, and in particular – those laws governing access to information on Abortion services. They demanded to know what gave BPAS the right to comment on Irish abortion laws? They declared that the only possible motive for BPAS’ involvement in the Irish abortion debate was financial gain".

"With regards the legality – the BPAS notice was perfectly legal. As the notice did not contain a phone number, an invitation to donate money or details about the services it provides – it is not what the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland (ASAI) would class as an advertisement nor does it break any laws by providing information on abortion services.
As to BPAS’ right to comment – many of the 4,000 women a year who travel to the UK to have an abortion do so in a BPAS clinic. BPAS are a registered charity in the UK which provides reproductive health services".

"These services include – contraception advice and vasectomy, pregnancy testing and counselling and abortion treatments. The staff in BPAS clinics meet women who have travelled from Ireland every day, and are thus uniquely positioned to comment on situation. They have an insight into the extra burden of stress travelling places on those coming from Ireland compared to the ‘normal’ stresses faced by those who access abortion services from within the UK".

"BPAS have stated publicly that they would prefer it if people in Ireland who want to access abortion services could do so in Ireland. They see the hardship travelling to the UK inflicts on those in their care and they hear first hand the extraordinary logistical difficulties people are required to navigate in order to travel. Be it accessing money; time off work or organising child-care – the stresses heaped on people in an already stressful situation are exacerbated by having to travel from Ireland . BPAS are also acutely aware that many will face difficulty accessing the follow up medical care they need".

You stated:

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I said the complete opposite. I said nobody outside of the country should be meddling in the referendum of that country, unless they can bring something to the table that nobody in the country can. They are perfectly allowed to have and state their opinions but I don't believe those opinions should have anything to do with a referendum at an official level.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion you did?

You stated:

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

What point did I ignore?



Yes exactly


They can have whatever opinions they want. Just not as a side on the referendum



Good for you? I didn't say they couldn't have opinions. In fact, I specifically said they had a freedom of speech. Just not on an official level on a referendum that has nothing to do with their country.

The organization BPAS has commented on Irish laws on abortion:



Yes actually, I do.



Actually, no. I don't believe she should.


Now, can you please answer the rest of my questions? Nice pulling it off topic in order not to answer by the way

horseburger wrote: »

How can you state that BPAS has not stated anything regarding advocating for the provision of abortion services in Ireland.

It criticized the Irish government in 2013.

It recently registered the www.abortion.ie web address.

You seem to be now suggesting that BPAS can provide abortion services in Ireland, that doctors here would be unable to provide, if there is a yes vote.

BPAS criticized the Irish government in 2013 regarding abortion provision in Ireland.

Is that not getting involved in the debate?

This item is titled BPAS serves notice to the Irish Government

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/11/15/bpas-serves-notice-to-the-irish-government/

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

They are all propaganda videos, not independently produced.

I am perfectly aware that each side are adversaries in this debate on abortion and that very often one side will not entertain the other side's viewpoints.

That doesn't mean that I can't consider the arguments being made by each side and watch and listen to the content they produce.

There are very few actual independent media outlets, so there is no harm in looking at press statements and documents and videos of each group involved in this debate, or other groups elsewhere who engage in discussion about abortion.

Very often, radio and TV stations and newspapers and websites, only include, in their news reports, parts of items like press releases, and parts of statements that are supplied to media outlets, from different advocacy groups.

And quite often the reporters in newspapers and tv and radio, give coverage to one side more than the other.

I would have found a debate on the news today about this issue, of more interest, than the frequent reports of Donald Trump's sexual relations.

horseburger

DubInMeath wrote: »

Ok then I'm going to have to ask what a severely disabled pregnancy is.

You know what was meant in the post.

You might like to deal with the issue that was sincerely highlighted by the writer Donal Lynch, who spoke of use of euphemisms - by those who advocate repealing the Eighth Amendment - to avoid dealing with describing abortion and what it involves, than trying to avoid the point being made by pleas advice.

You don't seem to understand that the approach taken in the arguments made by people like Donal Lynch, will sway people a lot more, to the perspective of a call for repeal, than your approach.

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

If my decision was based on the attitude of some of the posters, my decision would be a lot more definitive.

The gays are in my face again!

Zubeneschamali

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Hell they event tapped it into PULSE.